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ChattingwithShias

White Girls Like Beards And Muslim Girls Don't

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I thought Muslim men weren't allowed to completely shave off all of their beard. Also are Muslim women allowed to shave at all?

Men are prohibited from shaving a part of their beard, I'm think it's the hair that is on the jaw...

Women are allowed, and for the sake of beatification, women are actually encouraged. Women, in shia jurisprudence at least, can wax their eyebrows and such. There's a narration that encourages men to keep their nails short and women to keep them a little longer. I am sure there's a narration that states that women are allowed and encouraged to remove hair, just don't have any on hand.

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I wax my whole body..... do I care that you care?, because I do not care that you care, I still have to live life with some care, lets stop wasting time on stupid cares and come back to what we really should care about, although 99% have no clue what caring is really about, other then caring for pointless cares.

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As a white Revert this topic is kind of sad to me. I know it has been clarified that it was meant towards White non Muslim women, but still I can't help but notice this disturbing trend in many Muslims today. Even one post made a difference between revert and Muslim as if a revert is not a Muslim somehow. Alot of Reverts have this feeling of being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not Western enough for Westerners anymore because of our conversion but also not Muslim enough for Muslims either also because of our conversion. Why not just specify non Muslim instead of White women. I have a tough enough skin because I've been Muslim for 11 years, but new Reverts are not so thick skinned. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world but it also has one of the highest turnover rates among new converts, many of whom leave the Deen within a 5 year period of taking Shahada. I have seen this with lots of my friends who just can't take the we don't really belong atmosphere. Think if a white person who was interested in Islam and read this topic, is going to encourage or discourage their decision? Is this good for Dawah or bad for Dawah?

Stay strong! :) I am glad you wrote this post and I totally get where you are coming from as I have lived it vicariously. I am glad it was recognized as worthy by a few of our members with our "like" system. :P

Unfortunately, it is still PC to stereotype Whites; it is totally accepted (by all races - including White) to behave this way in our "enlightened, progressive" society to give "meaning" to skin colour. Just look at the title of this thread to see how absolutely intrinsic this way of thinking is - and it is again shown in the lack of reaction by the posts of some neanderthal on this forum who keeps referring to Whites in a hateful, derogatory manner with every post he writes (would that be acceptable speaking of any other race?) - with little to no objection from members, mods or admins.

Stereotyping (and I am using this as an euphemism here) is not accepted when referring to any other race. There is no wonder there is turnover within the White revert Muslim community. It can be very difficult for many White Muslims due to marginalization and, if you are alone without family support, complete isolation. My mom (who is a bonafide glow-in-the-dark White) reverted nearly 30 years ago and says that it is easier than it used to be (so maybe there is hope :) ) - but she still shies away from Islamic gatherings as they are too often reflective of cultural values than Islamic ones.

There used to be a White sister on here; she contributed a lot to this forum. She was a single mom with two children - one of whom had a developmental disability - who was isolated, had financial challenges and very much alone and as she described - without Muslim community support. We should have been reaching out and supporting her in our community around her - but she received the opposite. These are things from which we should learn about ourselves and our ummah and strive to make a change in these attitudes.

There is no racism or stereotyping of people due to skin colour or ethnicity in Islamic thought… we just need to push this message a bit more methinks - so, again, I am glad you posted. For instance, many younger Muslims are quite open about their parents racism stereotyping while they shake their head and then say, sooo, I can only marry within my own (aka I am too impotent islamically to challenge this..) I know a wonderful Shia sister who has recently decided to marry a White Shia against her parents wishes - more power to her and also to fossils people like my dad (a Shia brother) whose Shia family has still not been able to accept a White in the fam. So these ideas are changing... albeit slowly - and probably not before the White race is gone… but these efforts against blatant racism, will greatly encourage acceptance of all racial differences, across all ethnicities, as completely normal and natural. This will go a long way to make our community whole and healthy.

And then there are Black reverts - yet another story …..

- short neat beard :)

- hairy chest :)

- hairy belly :)

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- hairy neck :unsure:

-------------------------------------LINE OF TOLERANCE-----------------------------------------

- long beard :(

- Stubble :(

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- hairy back :sick:

LOOOL

Just want to say Ruq - I looovvvveee your posts!!!!

Edited by Maryaam

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Salam, very nice post sister.

I agree. As a "white" male revert I can understand many of the issues from the brothers post. I don't find the term "white" offensive, although it is useless information since most "white" people are a mix of many different ethnicity and nationalities. If you say, I'm white, that doesn't tell me anything about you except that probably your skin is lighter than coffee color, which is useless information if I want to know whether I can trust you, do business with you, if you want to marry my daughter, borrow money, etc. The "white" stereotypes are probably applicable, and possibly offensive to, those of Northern European ethnicity, who come from wealthy families, live in the suburbs, or ex-burbs, and dress in cloths that were fashionable maybe 30 years ago. I can assure you, this is a small minority group amoung "white" anyway and probably applies only to 1 or 2 'white' reverts on SC ( and I'm not one of those 1 or 2) or maybe none of them, and thus why noone was offended by the title of the thread.

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To support some of the earlier conclusions:

Men are prohibited from shaving a part of their beard, I'm think it's the hair that is on the jaw...

وعن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن هشام بن المثنى ، عن سدير الصيرفي قال : رأيت أبا جعفر ( عليه السلام ) يأخذ عارضيه ويبطن لحيته.

Muhammad al-Baqir [a] would shave from his sides and removing the hair passed the jaw and chin.

There's a narration that encourages men to keep their nails short and women to keep them a little longer.

محمد بن يعقوب. عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن النوفلي ، عن السكوني ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) للرجال : قصوا أظافيركم ، وللنساء : أتركن من أظفاركن ، فإنه أزين لكن.

The Messenger of Allah said to the men, “Cut your nails,” and to the women, “Leave your nails, for it is more adorning for you.”

I am sure there's a narration that states that women are allowed and encouraged to remove hair, just don't have any on hand.

Sistani:

· Question: Is it permissible for a woman who does not observe hijãb to get rid of her facial hair, to straighten her eyebrows, and to wear natural and light make up?

· Answer: Getting rid of facial hair and straightening the eyebrows do not prevent her from keeping her face open [while putting on the hijãb], provided she is confident of not getting sucked into something harãm and that exposing her face is not done with the intention of inviting harãm looks.

-----------

As a white Revert this topic is kind of sad to me. I know it has been clarified that it was meant towards White non Muslim women, but still I can't help but notice this disturbing trend in many Muslims today. Even one post made a difference between revert and Muslim as if a revert is not a Muslim somehow. Alot of Reverts have this feeling of being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Not Western enough for Westerners anymore because of our conversion but also not Muslim enough for Muslims either also because of our conversion. Why not just specify non Muslim instead of White women. I have a tough enough skin because I've been Muslim for 11 years, but new Reverts are not so thick skinned. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world but it also has one of the highest turnover rates among new converts, many of whom leave the Deen within a 5 year period of taking Shahada. I have seen this with lots of my friends who just can't take the we don't really belong atmosphere. Think if a white person who was interested in Islam and read this topic, is going to encourage or discourage their decision? Is this good for Dawah or bad for Dawah?

This is something that actually scares me about our community. Shi`a are few in the West, and yet most of our centres hold their sermons and majalis in other languages. There's even a centre here that will hold three separate jum`as - one for Iranians, one for Iraqis, and one for Pakistanis. It's very easy to unite our Western community under the English language, which is the language that most of us have in common, and yet we'd rather spend more money on ethnic centres and further isolate our communities. And this is just the surface of the problem for converts. Converts, especially white and black males, are not trusted. They often cannot connect to the highly-culturalized Shi`i customs and practices, and cannot get practical things done (such as marrying born-Muslima women). But all in all, I'd recommend that converts try to stick to their community as much as possible, despite the hardships that we've mentioned. I've seen many converts that isolate themselves and try to self-interpret the religion. But in doing so, they mix things up with other religions, worldviews, and lifestyles. As much as I hate the import of eastern cultures into our religion, Western culture is just as incompatible, if not more. And unfortunately, we often don't pick up on our own cultural influences as Western Muslims, because they're fused with the way we think and the way we act.

There's a high turnover-rate for converts to Islam. InshaAllah that'll change as we become more settled and established here. Remember that most Western Muslims are immigrants or children of immigrants, so naturally, we'll need time to gain a foothold here, both economically and intellectually. I just hope that doesn't take longer than it needs to.

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To support some of the earlier conclusions:

وعن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن هشام بن المثنى ، عن سدير الصيرفي قال : رأيت أبا جعفر ( عليه السلام ) يأخذ عارضيه ويبطن لحيته.

Muhammad al-Baqir [a] would shave from his sides and removing the hair passed the jaw and chin.

محمد بن يعقوب. عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن النوفلي ، عن السكوني ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) للرجال : قصوا أظافيركم ، وللنساء : أتركن من أظفاركن ، فإنه أزين لكن.

The Messenger of Allah said to the men, “Cut your nails,” and to the women, “Leave your nails, for it is more adorning for you.”

Sistani:

· Question: Is it permissible for a woman who does not observe hijãb to get rid of her facial hair, to straighten her eyebrows, and to wear natural and light make up?

· Answer: Getting rid of facial hair and straightening the eyebrows do not prevent her from keeping her face open [while putting on the hijãb], provided she is confident of not getting sucked into something harãm and that exposing her face is not done with the intention of inviting harãm looks.

-----------

Qa'im to the rescue, grazi.

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This is something that actually scares me about our community. Shi`a are few in the West, and yet most of our centres hold their sermons and majalis in other languages. There's even a centre here that will hold three separate jum`as - one for Iranians, one for Iraqis, and one for Pakistanis. It's very easy to unite our Western community under the English language, which is the language that most of us have in common, and yet we'd rather spend more money on ethnic centres and further isolate our communities. And this is just the surface of the problem for converts. Converts, especially white and black males, are not trusted. They often cannot connect to the highly-culturalized Shi`i customs and practices, and cannot get practical things done (such as marrying born-Muslima women). But all in all, I'd recommend that converts try to stick to their community as much as possible, despite the hardships that we've mentioned. I've seen many converts that isolate themselves and try to self-interpret the religion. But in doing so, they mix things up with other religions, worldviews, and lifestyles. As much as I hate the import of eastern cultures into our religion, Western culture is just as incompatible, if not more. And unfortunately, we often don't pick up on our own cultural influences as Western Muslims, because they're fused with the way we think and the way we act.

There's a high turnover-rate for converts to Islam. InshaAllah that'll change as we become more settled and established here. Remember that most Western Muslims are immigrants or children of immigrants, so naturally, we'll need time to gain a foothold here, both economically and intellectually. I just hope that doesn't take longer than it needs to.

I'd have to concur re: the tribalistic tendencies amongst Muslims, and particularly Shi'ah, in the West. I reverted 20 years ago, and I still recall my amazement at the fragmented nature of Islamic society in Australia. Little do Western xenophobes, who like to think of the Muslims in their midst as a monolithic block, know that Westerns Muslims are generally a disunited mess. Aside from cultural divisions, they are often even divided according to which madhhab or scholar they follow.

I spent the first 10 years after my reversion as a Sunni, but it wasn't until I became a Shi'i that I became the subject of suspicion. More specifically, I had certain individuals within the Lebanese community who I was later told had suspected that I was a Jewish or Australian infiltrator. Must've been the skull cap and that big, bushy orange-brown beard I used to wear :angel:

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Salam, very nice post sister.

I agree. As a "white" maie revert I can understand many of the issues from the brothers post. I don't find the term "white" offensive, although it is useless information since most "white" people are a mix of many different ethnicity and nationalities. If you say, I'm white, that doesn't tell me anything about you except that probably your skin is lighter than coffee color, which is useless information if I want to know whether I can trust you, do business with you, if you want to marry my daughter, borrow money, etc. The "white" stereotypes are probably applicable, and possibly offensive to, those of Northern European ethnicity, who come from wealthy families, live in the suburbs, or ex-burbs, and dress in cloths that were fashionable maybe 30 years ago. I can assure you, this is a small minority group amoung "white" anyway and probably applies only to 1 or 2 'white' reverts on SC ( and I'm not one of those 1 or 2) or maybe none of them, and thus why noone was offended by the title of the thread.

Yes true words you speak

Race is not defined only by skin tone

Not exists a white/black race

Only exists many races with different tones of skin

Nordics and Alpines are two examples of this, both have different tones of white skin but are not same race

Stop the lies.

As for the topic title --> When someone converts to Islam he is no longer white but reborn a arab (joke). And there are white Arabs.

Edited by dfdfRandolphdfdf

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Salams,

I absolutely LOVE the beard. It is amazing. A clean shaven guy actually reminds me of a peeled potato. Men should be men and not girly.

Also, I hate people making a mockery of the beard or keeping it unclean. Allah gave it as a beauty for men and a highly highly recommended act.

The prophet Muhammed saw disapproved very much of men without beards. Yes I'm a sister, and don't have a beard. My username can be decieving

without intent...lol

Shia_warrior92

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Yes true words you speak

Race is not defined only by skin tone

Not exists a white/black race

Only exists many races with different tones of skin

Nordics and Alpines are two examples of this, both have different tones of white skin but are not same race

Stop the lies.

As for the topic title --> When someone converts to Islam he is no longer white but reborn a arab (joke). And there are white Arabs.

absolutely true. maybe you should try it to see how it feels being white arab with a beard etc

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Usually when they want to show someone with a bad past (ex-con / jobless / homeless) they show an un-shaved man. A clean shave gives out this more professional look. Plus it itches like fudge, I wish I could laser mine off lol.

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I am happy to see that some on here are agreeing with me, as normally the typical reaction even among reverts is that your making too big a deal over this. The issue is though reverts both white and black have alot of difficulty in three primary areas, 1.Being lost in the ethnocentrism of the Western Muslim community today. This is primarily a bigger problem with the Shi'i community. When Arabs will only to go to centers that speak in Arabic, and South Asians will only go to centers that speak in Urdu and Iranians only go to their Farsi language centers, then where does that leave us. The Sunni community more than the Shia community has started to realize the importance of uniting different cultures through the language of the country in which they reside, be it English, French, German, etc.. Where as this has not taken place in the Shi'i community. I remember all the Shia at my Husseiniyah ( majority Iraqi ) one night were arguing about why they have such a small attendance every week for Duaa Kumail, when Sunnis are packed in the Masjid every single night, we can barely get 15 people to show up only once a week. Many just talked non sense about how "Oh its quality over quantity" but they just didn't get it. The Pakistanis are meeting in each other's houses instead of coming to the center because of the language barrier, and the Iranians only come for Muharaam for the same reason. Its crazy, just have the lecture in English and keep Duaa in Arabic but at least talk in English and the center will have a bigger community, guaranteed.

2. The other big issue is that it becomes clear to most reverts that they are never really looked at as Muslim by non-Muslims or even by their Muslim "Brothers". Sure we get Salaams, and hugs and the term Brother is used towards me all the time. But still we will get comments from the same people like, "well its not so hard for you in this country, but for us as Muslims it is very difficult to get adjusted here", "Merry Christmas Brother", "Are you really Muslim?, like do you pray even at home?"

3. Marriage: This is possibly the biggest one, especially for men. Don't get me wrong alot of revert sisters have difficulty here too but its normally difficulty adjusting to their husband's family, where as male reverts have difficulty just getting married in the first place. Most revert women do not want to marry revert men and so this limits our selection to women from Muslim families and this is not much of a selection considering the opposition from the family in the first place. One time a Brother asked me why I don't get married, so I said do you know a girl? No response came. I made a proposal recently to a woman and her family keeps going back and forth, one day its ok and we should set up a date and then 2 days later they are like well we are having doubts because of your culture. What culture are they talking about? 90% of my native culture went out the window when I took Shahada 11 years ago, I feel like saying your the ones with cultural hang ups not me. My friends are all having the same issue. Getting rejection after rejection from family after family. This leaves many revert Brothers either living in Celibacy or marrying from Ahlul Kitab hoping that she will convert and this many times I have seen leads to divorce. Neither one of those alternatives is healthy.

Reverts have to start developing closer ties to each other through forums and similar mechanisms rather than just waiting for our community to further develop. Because if this stuff continues the turn over rates won't change and the community will not develop in the first place. I also believe this will generate more respect from the immigrant Muslim communities if we organize for ourselves (across racial lines, blacks, whites, and hispanics ) instead of trying to instead of seeking their permission to be Muslim which is what many reverts fall into doing sadly. Allah's (swt) permission is enough for me.

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