Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
thirstythirsty

Why Calling Ismaili's Non-muslims Is A Great Sin

Recommended Posts

Why Calling Ismaili's Non-muslims Is A Great Sin?

This post is addressed to the Ithnashari young and old people in this forum. In this last month of Ramadan, the Insults to the Imam-e-Zamana reached fever pitch by the young ignorant Ithnashari and their poorly educated religious scholars, whose knowledge and research, in the exegesis of the Holy Quran, the Hadith, history, archeology and other sciences needed to establish the truth is Poor and Shoddy.

They have neither took up any great intellectual challenge and solved any mystery. Thus, for comparison, I pick a Sunni scholar who has made a name in recent times. This scholar's name is Sheikh Imran Hosein. Below are the two links to the same video, one with Bangla subtitles (as it is also my native language) and the other has the biography of the Sheikh at the end which is very important. His family moved to Trinidad as an "indentured" servants. I am sure none of your Ayatollahs from Iran or India ever went thru such harsh life to cook their personality.

2012 Imran Hosein - Sufi, Salafi and the End of Times - YouTube

It is also true that your Ayatollah Khamenei, Ayatollah Sistani, do NOT reach the scholarly level of the Sheikh Imran Hosein. He has written perhaps as many if not more books and treatises than your Ayatollah Khomeini (ra). In particular, he has now written on the TIMELY and RELEVANT topic of the end times. However, here my purpose is different. This video of his talks about the issue, whether, Ismailis are muslim or not.

Ismaili Tariqah is a Sufi Tariqah, with only one difference, the Sufi master is also the Imam-e-Zamana, from the first Imam Ali or Mawlana Ali (Salawat).

The Jamat Khana is like a Sufi Khanaqah.

It has no music or dancing in the Jamat Khana.

There was a time, there was such persecution of the Ismailis after than fall of Alamut by mean spirited and chandah-collecting ithnashari clergy, that a clean separation was made and sharia was totally abandoned. That is what saved the Ismailis from the ithnashari clergy. In any country, where civil laws of harassment and stalking were operational, it would be fairly easy to stop the harassment via a civil harassment restraining order against the clergy.

But unfortunately, this did not work in Iran.

The Ismaili practices in the Jamat Khana are PRIVATE practices as in the Khanaqah. There are many sufi Ithnashari tariqah where men and women sit, women without any hijab, and they sing and dance. These are bonafide persian men and women. They dont believe in sharia in the sense that they believe it but have reached tariqah and dont practice it. This is because they already practice the ADAAB which means respect legal and civil rights or others. Sharia is nothing but codification of the civil and criminal laws. The wahhabis call the Prophet the law-giver.

As a result, the Ismaili, Nizari, Agakhani practices are private and not the business of anyone other than the member of this sufi tariqah.

Next, it is true that some of the members of the Tariqah, specifically the Khoja who speak Gujjarati have posted the videos of the gatherings on the internet. These are NOT the videos of the religious congregation but rather the SOCIAL functions. I can show you many videos or photos of Ithanshari women of Iranian without hijab. I can show you videos of the Pakistani women anchors without hijab and new and new daily makeup and clothes in that poor country. Benazir Bhutto, her Iranian mother Nusrat Bhutto never wore HIJAB. I am for hijab but that is not the reason for calling the Ismailis non-muslims. In Lebanon, the shia live all the time with sunni and christian and druze women who wear western clothing.

In "the muslim village" that the Sunni Sheikh Imran Hosein describes, you cannot stop the Ismailis from their Jamat Khana practices, or you will be thrown out faster than federal express.

Yes, you can keep your arms on the side, or fold them on your chest or above the belly, any way, but you cannot call each other non-muslims.

I urge you to listen to Sheikh Imran Hosein and bring ONE single AYATOLLAH of yours who has written any treatises on this important subject of Akhir-u-Zaman.

I know that he has criticized our Imam and called him a stooge of the west. But he forgot that the previous Imam, who worked so much more to build a relationship between Islam and the West was the one who worked for the building of Aligarh university and Allameh Iqbal Lahouri himself came out and muslims separated the engine of the railway and dragged his rail-car personally in honor of his services for the muslims of India.

Infact, my Bangladesh would not have separated from the West Pakistan, had the muslims of Pakistan listened to him and adopted Arabic as their first national language. This itself is a miracle that your pakistani elite could not see or none of your scholars from the sunni or shia could reach that stage of foresight. He says in his speech clearly, that he will become UNPOPULAR, but none of your Ayatollah could reach that level of insight or foresight. In addition, only one sunni scholar has admitted in the retrospect and called him the grandfather of pakistan and that is Dr Israr Ahmad whose speech video is on the internet and I saw it once on this forum. Can someone bring it out than trying to hide it that post?

The gujarati nizari khojas are responsible for this issue as they are putting the videos that are supposed to private. In addition, Imam-e-Zamana himself brought a case against several of his gujarati khojas in Canada for publishing his private firmans etc. If there are things that are holding us back from progress, it is the gujju khojas who are not obeying the firmans of the Hazar Imam. The Holy Prophet could not be held responsible for the disobedience in later times of Talha and Zubayr and those who faught among themselves.

I urge you to listen to this scholar, Sheikh Imran Hosein and his lecture on the resolution between Salaf and the Sufi and TRANSER and APPLY that to the way to resolution between Shia Imami Ismaili Nizari (who originated Risail Ikhwan As-Safa) and Shia Ithnashari.

Shariat, Tariqat, Haqiqat, Ma'arifat.

Ithanshari use the term IRFAN.

Sheikh Imran Hosein uses the term IHSAN.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Agha Khan III who was a persian made this speech to the Pakistanis in the West Pakistan in 1950. Is this not a miracle that he saw 50 or 60 years before it happened - what is happening today in Pakistan? The ethnic and linguistic divide, especially, in Karachi, the port and economic life-line of pakistan? Is this not a divinely bestowed insight of Qalab-e-Saleem illuminated by Allah the almighty's Noor?

If this persian could give this advice to pakistan, why did the Ithnashari Ayatollahs forgot to give the advice to Pakistan and pakistani ruling elite, which had more ithnasharis, in the ruling elite. Perhaps, the ratio of Ithnashari to ismail was many to zero. This is not a single Ismaili in any federal government ruling elite in pakistan or positions of various parties today and probably at that time.

I think it is a great sin to create the great FITNA by questioning the islamic creditionals of Ismailis and making tuhmats on the Imams. I am sure you know well that the Holy Prophet (Salawat) knew well many of the secrets, as a matter of fact on Miraaj, he was shown all the past and future history of the mankind in broad terms and he revealed details as and when asked. Infact, Angel Gabriel came to ask him some questions in public in the form of a human being as the Sheikh Imran Hosein's video describes. In the same way, our Imams know also.

Here is the link and the speech.

http://www.amaana.org/sultweb/arabicpak.htm

Arabic Universal Language of the Muslim World

An address by the late H. H. Sir Sultan Mohammed Shah Aga Khan at a session of Motamer al-Alam-al-Islamiyya

Karachi, Pakistan

February 9, 1951

Mr. President, Brother Muslims,

I can assure you that it is not with a light heart that I address you this evening. I fully realise that what I am going to say will make me most unpopular with important sections of the population. However, I would be a traitor to Islam if I let this opportunity pass without placing before the people of this powerful and populous Islamic nation the views which I consider my duty to place before the Muslims with as many of the arguments as I am capable of using in a short address. I fear some of my arguments will mortally offend those who under totally different conditions gave so much of their life for the support of the cause which I think today has been passed by events far more important than any dreamt of in those days.

I feel the responsibility greater than any I can think of to place my views and arguments before the Muslim population of Pakistan as a whole - each and every province - while what I consider a tragic and deadly step is not yet taken and not added to the constitution of this realm.

The language of a nation is not only the expression of its own voice but the mode of interpretation with all other human societies. Before it is too late, I, an old man, implore my brothers in Islam here not to finally decide for Urdu as the national language of Pakistan but to choose Arabic. Please hear my arguments.

First my argument against Urdu. If what was the other part of the former British Empire of India had made Urdu its national language, there would have been a great argument for Pakistan doing ditto. It could have been a linguistic and important point of contact with the vast Republic of the South. I am the last man on earth to desire to break any bridge of contact and understanding between Pakistan and its immense neighbour.

Not only Urdu but even Hindustani has been replaced by Hindi throughout Bharat as the national language. The people of Bharat were perfectly justified to choose any language which the majority considered most appropriate and historically justified to be their national language. The majority there has the right to choose what was most suitable for them as the official language of the country. Your choice in Pakistan of Urdu will in no way ameliorate or help your relations with your neighbour, nor will it help the Muslim minorities there in any conceivable way. Howsoever you may add Arabic and Persian words to Urdu, there is no denying the fact that the syntax, the form, the fundamentals of the language are derived from Hindi and not from Arabic.

Was Urdu the language of the Muslims of India at the time of their glory? During the long Pathan period, Urdu was never considered the language of the rulers. Now we come to the Moghul Empire in the period of its glory. It was not the language of the educated. I defy anybody to produce a letter or any other form of writing by Emperors Aurangzeb, Shah Jehan, Jehangir, Akbar, Humayun or Babar in Urdu language. All that was spoken at the Court was Persian or occasional Turkish. I have read many of the writings of Aurangzeb and they are in beautiful Persian. Same is true if you go to the Taj Mahal and read what is written on the tombs of the Emperor and his famous consort. Persian was the court language and the language of the educated and even till the early 19th century in far Bengal, the Hindu intelligentsia wrote and used Persian and not Urdu. Up to the time of Macaulay, Persian was the language of Bengali upper classes irrespective of faith and of official documents and various Sadar Adalat.

Historical Facts

We must look historical facts in the face. Urdu became the language of Muslim India after the downfall. It is a language associated with the downfall. Its great poets are of the downfall period. The last and the greatest of them was lqbal, who with the inspiration of revival gave up Urdu poetry for Persian poetry. There was a meeting in Iqbal’s honour in London organised by men such as Professor Nicholson.

I was present at that meeting. Iqbal said that he went in for Persian poetry because it was associated with the greatness of the Islamic epoch and not with its misfortunes. Is it right that the language of the downfall period should become the national language of what we hope now is a phoenix-like national rising? All the great masters of Urdu belong to the period of greatest depression and defeat. It was then a legitimate attempt by the use of a language of Hindi derivation with Arabic and Persian words to find ways and means of better understanding with the then majority fellow countrymen. Today that vast British dependency is partitioned and succeeded by two independent and great nations and the whole world hopes that both sides now accept partition as final.

Is it a natural and national language of the present population of Pakistan? Is it the language of Bengal where the majority of Muslims live? Is it what you. hear in the streets of Dacca or Chittagong? Is it the language of the North West Frontier? Is it the language of Sind? Is it the language of the Punjab? Certainly after the fall of the Moghal Empire, the Muslims and Hindus of certain areas found in it a common bond. But now today other forms of bridges must be found for mutual understanding.

Who were the creators of Urdu? What are the origins of Urdu? Where did it come from? The camp followers, the vast Hindi-speaking population attached to the Imperial Court who adapted, as they went along, more Arabic and Persian words into the syntax of their own language just as in later days the English words such as glass and cup became part of a new form of Urdu called Hindustani.

Are you going to make the language of the Camp, or of the Court, the national language of your new-born realm? Every Muslim child of a certain economic standard learns the Quran in Arabic, whether he is from Dacca or Quetta. He learns his Alif-Bey to read the Quran. Arabic is the language of Islam. The Qur'an is in Arabic. The Prophet's hadith are in Arabic. The highest form of Islamic culture in Spain was in Arabic. Your children must learn Arabic to a certain extent always. The same is true of your West whether Sind, Baluchistan or the North. From the practical and worldly point of view, Arabic will give you, as a national language, immediate contact not only with the 40 million Arabic-speaking people of independent nations on your West, but the other 60 million more or less Arabic-speaking people who are not independent but who exist in Africa.

Right up to the Atlantic, not only in North but as far South as Nigeria and the Gold Coast, Arabic is known to the upper classes of the population. In all the Sudans, on the Nile or under French rule, Arabic is the language right up to the borders of Portuguese West Africa. In East Africa, not only in Zanzibar but amongst the Muslim population of even countries as far apart as Madagascar and Portuguese East Africa, Arabic is known. If we turn to the Far East, Arabic has prospered throughout the region inhabited by 80 million Muslims of Indonesia, Malaya and Philippines. In Ceylon, Muslim children of the well-to-do

classes get some knowledge of Arabic. Is it not right and proper that this powerful Muslim State of Pakistan, with its central geographical position, its bridges between the nearly 100 million Muslims of the East and 100 million Muslims of the West - its position of the East from Philippines and the Great State of Indonesia and Malaya and Burma and then westward with the hundred millions in Africa, right up to the Atlantic, should make Arabic its national language and not isolate itself from all its neighbors and from the world of Islam with a language that was associated with the period of downfall of Muslim States. And finally, while Arabic, as a universal language of the Muslim world will unite, Urdu will divide and isolate.

Gentlemen, brothers in Islam, people of Pakistan, people of every Province, I appeal to you, before you take the final and what I unfortunately must say, I consider, the fatal jump down the precipice, please discuss and let all and every one contribute their views. Take time and think over it.

Once more I appeal for Islamic charity from those whom I may have offended and I appeal to all others to look to the facts in the face both historically and as they exist at present.

I pray that the people of this country may be guided by Divine Wisdom before they decide.

Here is what the Imam did to promote the understanding of persian islamic suf culture all over the world.

http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=101486

Speeches of Aga Khan III

Hafiz and the Place of Iranian Culture in the World

Inaugural Lecture Before the Iran Society

Sir Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan

November 9, 1936 London, United Kingdom

pdf_icon.gifDownload PDF version of speech (23 KB)

I must thank His Excellency the Iranian Minister, Lord Lamington and the members of the Society for having done me the honour of inviting me tonight to bring before you the importance to the whole world of those spiritual forces that the ancient land of Iran has cherished in her modern history. Before I go further I want to define clearly what I mean by "spiritual forces" – I do not use this term in any question-begging sense. I do not wish to limit it merely to religious or such ideas, or to give it any otherworldly interpretation, but I do mean anything that deals with man’s life of the spirit here and now on this earth and in this life. Whatever may or may not be the soul’s future, there is one impregnable central fact in existence: that here and now, in this world, we have a soul which has a life of its own in its appreciation of truth, beauty, harmony and good against evil. Has modern Iran greatly contributed to the perfectioning of the soul of man thus understood? Modern Iran I define as the ancient race of that high plateau, influenced by the faith of Islam and the imaginative poetry and declamation of Arabia, welded into one by a process of slow intermarriage and movement of many races from north, west, east and south. What has this Iran done for the satisfaction of man’s highest aspirations?

Whatever the cause, after Islam had for three or four centuries taken deep root in Iran the genius of the race blossomed out, and for all the centuries right down to our own times that garden, in spite of the terrible visitations that so often submerged it, has never ceased to bring forth roses of rare fragrance.

Anwari, Nizami, Mawlana Rumi, Saadi, Qa‘ani and a host of others - names that will be well known to Oriental scholars, but which will perhaps convey little to the general public here - each in his own way gave a message to mankind. But the fundamental point of each message if carefully studied is that man’s greatest of all treasures, the greatest of all his possessions, was the inherent, ineffaceable, everlasting nobility of his own soul. In it there was for ever a spark of true divinity which could conquer all the antagonistic and debasing elements in nature. And let me once more stress that this faith in the soul of man expressed in a great variety of ways - in prose and verse, in art and architecture - was not simply a religious or mystic faith but an all-embracing and immediate contact with a fact which, in every human being, is the central fact of existence.

Then came Hafiz - by far the greatest singer of the soul of man. In him we can find all the strivings, all the sorrow, all the victories and joys, all the hopes and disappointments of each and every one of us. In him we find contact, direct and immediate, with the outer universe interpreted as an infinite reality of matter, as a mirror of an eternal spirit, or indeed (as Spinoza later said) an absolute existence of which matter and spirit alike are but two of infinite modes and facets. It is not for nothing that his "Divan" has become, throughout the East, the supreme fal nama (book of divination) of millions and millions far beyond the confines of Iran. In perplexity and sorrow, whatever the cause, whatever the standard of intellect or emotion, men throughout the Near East and India turn to Hafiz - from the Ganges to the Nile, from the Caspian to the Bay of Bengal – for comfort and solace. Incredible as it may seem to us, even in his lifetime his influence had reached Bengal, Central Asia, Kashmir, Arabia and Egypt.

Any attempt at translation of Hafiz has always led to immense disappointment. The explanation is simple; he was not merely the Hafiz of the Qur’an, but well acquainted with the whole field of philosophy, history, poetry and literature, with the highest thought then known to his countrymen. In each verse, with the intense concentration of thought and wisdom so singularly his own, he has produced in amazing variety facets of truth and beauty, of meaning and wisdom. I have myself tried my hand at seeing in how many ways, and with how many totally different meanings, verses of his could be translated into either English or French. I think it is no figure of speech to say that far too many versions and explanations of each word could be given, and that each verse could be interpreted according to the intelli-gence that one wished to reach.

This, perhaps, will explain why Hafiz has always been (as no other great poet can claim to be) the national poet, the national hero, of Iran. Pushkin, Goethe and Shakespeare in the West; Al Mutannabi, Abu Nawas and Firdawsi in the East - all of them great, indeed supreme, kings in the realm of poetry - could never reach their humblest subjects. The uncultured peasants of the West, or the equally humble intelligences of the East, could never absorb their full meaning or beauty. Hafiz is different. Not only in his own Persia but in India, in Afghanistan, in Central Asia and even amongst Turkish and Arabic-speaking peoples, the moment his verses are understood you will always find an interpretation of most of them that could appeal to the humblest as well as the highest of intelligences. No wonder the muleteers call him their friend and companion! No wonder the cobbler and the water-carrier find in him - as do the keenest intellects of Asia - solace and satisfaction!

One of the greatest living Hindu statesmen, Sir Tej Bahadur Sapru, once told me that in all difficult moments of his life he turns to Hafiz. I think there is no one of Iranian race alive today who has not at some time or other - in difficulty, sorrow and misery, or in joy and triumph - turned to his national hero for comfort or further elation. Incredible as it may sound to English ears, it is a fact that there is hardly a Muslim bourgeois family in the whole of India in whose home a copy of Hafiz’s "Divan" is not found. I think, too, that we can be fairly certain that the book is as popular in Afghanistan and Central Asia and over a great part of what I may call Western Muslim countries as it is in India.

Soon after the death of Hafiz the worst periods of political and social anarchy, of invasion and disruption, broke up the high civilisation already reached in Iran. Bismarck and other stat-esmen and historians have said that Germany as the battle-ground of Europe could never bring about - except at a terrible sacrifice - the peace, civilisation and unity characteristic of England and France. Persia was the battleground of Asia. But the genius of Hafiz was never submerged. Whenever peace came, in howsoever limited a form, the eternal tree bore fruit. Hafiz taught the appreciation of beauty, love, gentleness and kindliness; the value of all human beings; the constant glory and splendour and joy of the universe in which we live; the wonder of communion with nature. These undying, eternal truths were so immortally impressed by him on his countrymen that whenever opportunity arose in any period of peace the striving after them and the expression of those eternal values became, in Iran at least, a motive force and power.

Critics of Iranian civilisation and culture have said that after Hafiz the light was not only dimmed but burned out. Nothing could be more false and unjust. No doubt Hafiz was the supreme genius of his race, and in that sense if we try to measure his successors by his standard we will find an immediate and sudden decline. But that surely is not the right way to search for his influence. Did the Persian race after him strive for expression in art and literature, in poetry and prose - for the wealth and splendour inherent in the human soul? I have no hesitation in saying "yes". Take the art of the Safavi period - poor in literature, but so rich in architecture and in textiles, in beautiful metal and glass work, in its lovely brocades and carpets. Can we deny that there is here immense search for expression of the highest aspir-ations of man’s soul?

Whenever Iran had any breathing space from war and invasion and misery, in one form or another a national character has formed and, by the spiritual influences of its poetry, immediately turned towards the expression of appreciation and enjoyment of the eternal light within us. And during the nineteenth century one of the very greatest poets that the Iranian race has ever produced, Qa‘ani, interpreted nature with a wealth of variety, a strength and beauty, which I doubt can ever be surpassed. Let the admirers of Wordsworth and the French nature poets compare in beauty, simplicity or grandeur the finest verses of the Western masters with Qa‘ani's constant descriptions and references to rain, thunder, the sky and earth, the flowers and mountains, night and day, the sun, moon and stars. If the odes had mercenary motives, if the human praise and blame which he bestowed as he went along were nearly always insincere – let us not forget the fundamental honesty of his outlook on life and the universe, the sincerity of his belief in the beauty of goodness of nature.

Modern Persian critics, unconsciously influenced, perhaps, by the puritanical standards of European literature during the last century, have taken Qa‘ani to task for his praise of sexual perver-sities. But when all is said these are but drops in the ocean of his work and, compared with similar extravagancies of many great writers of the West, they are neither prominent nor obtrusive. No one need, unless he searches in the "Divan," come across these particular passages. The music and joy of his verses, the sincerity of his conviction that life is a great, noble and splendid experience - every minute of which is to be treasured as the greatest of God's gifts - these surely are the qualities we will find in page after page and verse after verse of his work.

But is this immense wealth of Iran to remain only a treasure of the Islamic East and its fringe in India? Is Europe, is America, is the West so rich in the joys of the spirit, in its immediate satisfaction with life, that it can afford to close its doors to what Iran has to offer in the highest spiritual satisfaction to mankind? In these days of intensive nationalism – nationalism of a kind that wishes to turn even art, beauty and goodness into national possessions - is this immense lesson of Iran to be forgotten? Iran in its language, in its culture, in its highest soul expression, has taken to its bosom and freely accepted the contributions of Greece and India, the immense stream from Islam, Arabia and the Turkish race. It has assimilated the best of each in order better to express its yearning after truth and beauty. Is this fundamental influence not to be brought into the service of the highest culture of the West?

In the economic field we find today the ideal of one great source of wealth, the earth, to be enjoyed by humanity as a whole through free trade and competition, looked upon almost as an expression worthy only of a lunatic asylum. Peace, and the League of Nations co-operating to conquer disease, malnutrition and the vast waste areas of the world; to raise the poor and humble irrespective of race and religion to the standard of the highest; to feed the famine-stricken and the starving; a competition for construction between various races and countries - all this would today, as a practical suggestion, be considered only worthy of idiots and half-wits. The work of destruction has a totally different standard of appreciation applied to it. Yet, truly understood, and from the lowest material point of view, what good could come from efforts to conquer the waste areas of the world by co-operation, to bring about a standard of living in China and India that would enable people there to buy some of the luxuries of life from Europe and America, to apply the tropical lands that are impossible for European and American settlement for the benefit of the millions of the brown and yellow races and thus open up new and vast markets for the white races for healthy exchange and welcome competition. All these things would lead through prosperity to spiritual awakening and artistic creation. Such work today is not in the realm of practical politics.

Surely now there is room for us to turn to the spirit of Hafiz's teaching. For if ever there was a time when we needed the universality of Hafiz as a guiding light it is today when there are forces that threaten the roots of humanity. Class and race competition threaten to submerge the highest joy of life and living – namely, the search for, and conquest of, true beauty and goodness which, could we but know it, are ever within our grasp.

In that spirit I appeal to the intellectual classes in this country to come and join up with the Iran Society, to help forward similar associations, to study and understand Islamic, Hindu and Far Eastern philosophy, culture, literature and art. Thus the spiritual and emotional inheritance of Great Britain, Europe and America (North and South) should not be merely derived from Greece and Judaism, but from the world as a whole, for I am certain that Asiatic culture in its widest sense can bring as much to man's common heritage as either Greece or Palestine.

Last updated: 5/28/2009 15:40

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sahih al-Bukhari is the most authentic collection of hadiths in the Sunnah

Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad say "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

Book 89:329

Sahih Muslim is the second most authentic collection of hadiths in the Sunnah

Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad say "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh."

Book 20:4477-4483

And there are more than 20 similar narrations

Sunan al-Tirmidhi:

The Prophet said: "There will be after me twelve rulers, all of them from Quraysh."

Hadith 2149 (numbering of al-Alamiyyah)

Sunan Abu Dawood:

The Prophet said: "This religion remains standing until there are twelve vicegerents over you, all of them agreeable to the nation, all of them from Quraysh."

Book 36:4266

"This religion shall always be upright till there are twelve from Quraish. When they are no more, the earth will be destroyed (swallowed) with all its inhabitants"

Kanz al-Ummaal, vol 12, pg 34, Tr. No. 3386

- Kash al-Astaar, part 1, pg 99 narrating from al-Ebaanah

- E'laam al-Waraa pg 384

- Muqtazab al-Asar, pg 3-4

- Manaaqeb of ibn Shar Aashob, vol 1, pg 290

- Behaar al-Anwaar vol 36, pg 267, Chap 41, Tr. No. 87

- Al-Insaaf, pg 361

"Surely this religion will always overcome its opponents and no enemy or deserter can ever harm it till there are twelve caliphs from my nation in it. All of them will be from Quraish"

Musnad-e-Ahmad, vol 5, pg 87

http://en.wikipedia....f_Ismaili_imams

http://en.wikipedia....List_of_Caliphs

http://en.wikipedia....he_Twelve_Imams

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have already admitted your defeat by not answering my question. You have already admitted your defeat by asking questions before addressing a single of my question. Specifically, why your Ithnashari Ayatollahs sitting in their hujras, with all their daily needs looked after by the stipends from the state - failed to produce an exegesis of the Quran, Hadith and for the Akhir-uz-Zaman, as one Sheikh Imran Hosein, student of a Sufi Rahmullah Alaih from Pakistan, and a son of indentured servants to Trinidad, from India has done brilliantly?

I guess, the primary task of your Ayatollahs is to guide and answer practical and theoretical questions of the time - as well as to stop the activity of mean-spirits as here, who create GREAT FITNA thru this forum, riding on their (Ayatollah's) hard works in the service of their (mean-spirits as here) LOWER NAFS and EGO.

I guess, the primary task of your hojatollahs is to create education and spread this. I am not against the comprehensive spread of reasonable hijab by the woman of pakistan who are in the media and public life. Why havent your hojatollahs taken this to pakistan?

I can answer both your questions with remarkable ease.

You have already admitted your defeat by not answering my questions - even a single one and answering question with a question is not allowed. Its a cheatful dodge.

In addition, when being defeated, your moderators jump in and put various forum mechanisms to waste time and limit the posting by Ismailis (and they have finally run away due to lack of time as they dont have a state or a state budget or stipend like yours. Every jamatkhana functionary has to earn his own income and live on his own.) And they (your moderators) do it at times hiddenly and at other times openly. People know, how you cheat in the game of dialogue. You are a MANIFEST evidence that two of you came with questions against one - and did not answer a single of my question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you tell me at what point in the video Imran Hossein says that Ismailis are Muslims? I've seen that lecture, and only remember him talking about Sufis, not Ismailis. Also, he was clear that in the masjid, only things that are based on the Sunnah were to be practiced, and anything else would have to take place at home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you tell me at what point in the video Imran Hossein says that Ismailis are Muslims? I've seen that lecture, and only remember him talking about Sufis, not Ismailis. Also, he was clear that in the masjid, only things that are based on the Sunnah were to be practiced, and anything else would have to take place at home.

You are obviously practicing what they call MAKKARI in farsi as well as trying to give me a run-around.

Bring your High level AYATOLLAH from their HUJRAs to discuss this issue with me over the internet.

I said clearly that Ismaili are a SUFI TARIQAH and all that the Sheikh Imran Hosein said about the sufis applies to the ISMAILIS.

Watch the video yourself.

Ismailis are NOT on state STIPEND nor our IMAM spends the donations on his personal self.

Donations go to charitable works.

I have much less time than yours to spend here so I shall naturally be angry by runaround tactics.

I repeat again what I said earlier.

You have already admitted your defeat by not answering my question. You have already admitted your defeat by asking questions before addressing a single of my question. Specifically, why your Ithnashari Ayatollahs sitting in their hujras, with all their daily needs looked after by the stipends from the state - failed to produce an exegesis of the Quran, Hadith and for the Akhir-uz-Zaman, as one Sheikh Imran Hosein, student of a Sufi Rahmullah Alaih from Pakistan, and a son of indentured servants to Trinidad, from India has done brilliantly?

I guess, the primary task of your Ayatollahs is to guide and answer practical and theoretical questions of the time - as well as to stop the activity of mean-spirits as here, who create GREAT FITNA thru this forum, riding on their (Ayatollah's) hard works in the service of their (mean-spirits as here) LOWER NAFS and EGO.

I guess, the primary task of your hojatollahs is to create education and spread this. I am not against the comprehensive spread of reasonable hijab by the woman of pakistan who are in the media and public life. Why havent your hojatollahs taken this to pakistan?

I can answer both your questions [number of khalifa 12 and arabic] with remarkable ease.

You have already admitted your defeat by not answering my questions - even a single one and answering question with a question is not allowed. Its a cheatful dodge.

In addition, when being defeated, your moderators jump in and put various forum mechanisms to waste time and limit the posting by Ismailis (and they have finally run away due to lack of time as they dont have a state or a state budget or stipend like yours. Every jamatkhana functionary has to earn his own income and live on his own.) And they (your moderators) do it at times hiddenly and at other times openly. People know, how you cheat in the game of dialogue. You are a MANIFEST evidence that two of you came with questions against one - and did not answer a single of my question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ismailis are NOT on state STIPEND nor our IMAM spends the donations on his personal self.

Donations go to charitable works.

Some, maybe even most, but even most independent Western financial commentators believe the Agha Khan pockets a significant portion of the dasond, which is the 10% tithe. Charitable works come from the 2.5% zakaat.

You have already admitted your defeat by not answering my question. You have already admitted your defeat by asking questions before addressing a single of my question. Specifically, why your Ithnashari Ayatollahs sitting in their hujras, with all their daily needs looked after by the stipends from the state - failed to produce an exegesis of the Quran, Hadith and for the Akhir-uz-Zaman, as one Sheikh Imran Hosein, student of a Sufi Rahmullah Alaih from Pakistan, and a son of indentured servants to Trinidad, from India has done brilliantly?

No one has admitted anything. What do you know about Ithna 'Aashari scholars? You make sweeping, generally inaccurate statements about them and present them as facts, with no supporting evidence. The reason most users here haven't replied to you is because they don't want to waste their time.

Have you read the tafseer of the Qur'aan by 'Allaamah Tabataba'i, for example? He was a theologian, philosopher, and 'arif, I very much doubt it, or you wouldn't have dared make the ridiculous accusations that you have.

You have a hide suggesting the maraaja are living comfortably on stipends. Have you seen how Sayed Sistani or Sayed Khamenei live (and I'm not a supporter of the WF, btw) ? Compare their lifestyles with the lifestyle of the Agha Khan. Do they have mansions and yachts all over the world? Do you see their wives prancing around in backless, tight dresses? Are they having affairs with air hostesses? Are they dredging the sea bed to create a small island for themselves in the Bahamas?

Btw, shari'ah is more than just a compendium of civil laws (mu'amalaat). It includes acts of worship such as prayer, hajj, and fasting, which Nizaris have forsaken altogether. As I have said before, the zhahir and batin go together like two sides of a coin. Practice only the zhahir and you are left with a clueless Salafi/Wahhabi. Practice only the batin and you are left with what Nizaris have now which is a sham of a religion.

Your imams have no right to abolish a'maal such as salaah, particularly since the Prophet and Imam 'Ali as well as our Imams and even your Fatimi imams stressed their importance. Some of Imam Husayn's (as) companions even died whilst shielding him from the arrows of their enemies just so that the Imam could complete is salaah, and your imam has the gall to remove it as an obligation on his mureeds !!!

What you practice in your jama'at khanas is your business, that's true. Most Muslims wouldn't have a problem with whatever you practice there if you also attended and prayed in masjids, or fasted, or went on Hajj, but you do not. Plz don't bore us with stories about Batinis having gone past the need for Shari'ah, because even your imam Nizar, like his father Mustansir billah, prayed and followed the Shari'ah. The egg is useless without a shell.

I can answer both your questions [number of khalifa 12 and arabic] with remarkable ease.

Please enlighten us with your answers.

Oh, and I hope an earthquake or some other calamity doesn't strike me for being presumptuous enough to question your practices...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sahih al-Bukhari is the most authentic collection of hadiths in the Sunnah

Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad say "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

Book 89:329

Sahih Muslim is the second most authentic collection of hadiths in the Sunnah

Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad say "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh."

Book 20:4477-4483

And there are more than 20 similar narrations

Sunan al-Tirmidhi:

The Prophet said: "There will be after me twelve rulers, all of them from Quraysh."

Hadith 2149 (numbering of al-Alamiyyah)

Sunan Abu Dawood:

The Prophet said: "This religion remains standing until there are twelve vicegerents over you, all of them agreeable to the nation, all of them from Quraysh."

Book 36:4266

"This religion shall always be upright till there are twelve from Quraish. When they are no more, the earth will be destroyed (swallowed) with all its inhabitants"

Kanz al-Ummaal, vol 12, pg 34, Tr. No. 3386

- Kash al-Astaar, part 1, pg 99 narrating from al-Ebaanah

- E'laam al-Waraa pg 384

- Muqtazab al-Asar, pg 3-4

- Manaaqeb of ibn Shar Aashob, vol 1, pg 290

- Behaar al-Anwaar vol 36, pg 267, Chap 41, Tr. No. 87

- Al-Insaaf, pg 361

"Surely this religion will always overcome its opponents and no enemy or deserter can ever harm it till there are twelve caliphs from my nation in it. All of them will be from Quraish"

Musnad-e-Ahmad, vol 5, pg 87

http://en.wikipedia....f_Ismaili_imams

http://en.wikipedia....List_of_Caliphs

http://en.wikipedia....he_Twelve_Imams

The Nizari Ismailis are also "Ithnasharis", but in a different sense.

I am a layman and not a religious scholar. I was given a challenge, a little after Ramadan, during which, there was a personal miracle on the 23 Ramadan, by our counting, which was the same as the Ahle-Sunna, but one day offset with our Ithnashari brothers. After the Eid, I managed to make an account and put the event in writing.

After that, I was given a question, which I claimed, I could reply with remarkable ease. There are several Hadith quoted in this thread by "AliHussainFaraji".

There are two interpretations of these Hadith. One is by our Ithnashari brothers, and I respect it and consider it correct. I personally feel that Musa Kadhim (ra) was honest and declared to divert attention from his brother. Already, during the lifetime of Imam Jafar as-Sadik, it was known that Imamat was a poisoned chalice and persecution. Even during the life of Imam Husein (as) it was clear. Hence, there was no material benefit in it. It was a heavy responsibility, so no there was no material incentive in this matter. If Musa Kadhim (ra) declared himself to be the Imam, then it was to divert the attention of the Omayads from their brother and the true Imam Ismail (as). But the progeny of Musa Kadhim (ra) all the way to those who claimed Imamat was pious as there was no benefit in it, except they were able to do the job of teaching religion. I consider them like the sufis who did the work of spreading religious teachings. Thus, you can see why I am able to respect both your line and accept your interpretation of 12 as correct simultaneously with mine, which I shall now state.

The Hadith talks about Khalifas and from Quraysh. It never says Imams or Banu Hashim.

This means, I can accept the first three caliphs in any counting since Imam Ali (as) accepted them. These are

Hazrat Abu Bakr Sideeq (ra)

Hazrat Umar Farook (ra)

Hazrat Uthman Ghani (ra)

and from Quraysh, although not Banu Hashim, and all accepted by Imam Ali, or a Shia Imami Ismaili Nizari Imam.

Next caliph is Imam Ali (as).

All I need to do is find 8 more.

Have a look at this link yourself.

http://en.wikipedia....timid_Caliphate

The first Fatimid Caliph was Imam Al-Mahdi (as) and the last Fatimid Caliph accepted by Shia Imami Ismaili Nizari as GENUINE is Imam Mustansir Billah (as), in that chart called Al-Mustansir. We dont accept Al-Mustali or Al-Majd as genuine.

Hence, we have a perfectly natural explanation for the Hadith you mentioned and quoted, of 12 Caliphs descending from Quraysh and that would be accepted by the righteous Imams. All the others who became Caliph from Muawiya, Yazid, ... Umar bin Abdul Aziz, ... Abbasid are not accepted because during their time, either the Ismaili Imams were in hiding and none were given the Baya. As a matter of fact, after the martyrdom of Imam Husein (as), no khalifa is ever given a Baya by a Nizari Imam. (Based on the trend of history, I dont anticipate ever khilafa going to our Imams in the future and the number 12 would remain 12.)

The Fatimids are the descendents of the Quraysh.

For the rest of the answers, I urge you to do your Chilla and Etekaf in Ramadan, as I did.

However, you should either respect our view, or just ignore us as we dont exist. I have given you a very strong and clear interpretation of the number 12 and the Hadith on which it is based. I believe, that both your and our interpreations are SIMULTANEOUSLY correct and do not contradict each other because Allah has often meant multiple meanings of the same verse in the Quran and the Holy Prophet (SAW) also would have made a hadith with more than one valid meaning.

May the Almighty put righeousness and loyalty to him into the hearts of members of our community and yours.

I will probably not be returning for atleast a month.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sufism is supererogatory (i.e. on top of the required practices the Prophet required). Ask any Sufi about that. Nizari Ismailism is an actual religion, on the other hand, and is not supererogatory at all like Sufism is.

The real Sufi orders out there all practice the Shari'ah 100% before anything else.

They do the 5x namaz and pray with other Muslims inside a masjid. They do the hajj. They do the saum. They do the zakat. And so on. What they do otherwise is in addition to that ("supererogatory") and may or may not be in private. They do not treat or consider their "Shaykhs" like God, nor worship them, either. Nor do the "Shaykhs" ever ask for money from their followers, nor pocket that money.

Nizari Ismailis do none of these pillars of Islam (they do zakat to some extent, but, not properly) and believe that their own Aga-Khan-designed practices are obligatory, but, the pillars of Islam practiced by Sufis and others in the Muslim Ummah are neither obligatory nor even recommended.

The idea that Nizari Ismailism has anything to do with Sufism is a joke, as anyone from one of the major Sufi orders of the Muslim world will quickly tell you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Ismaili practices in the Jamat Khana are PRIVATE practices as in the Khanaqah. There are many sufi Ithnashari tariqah where men and women sit, women without any hijab, and they sing and dance. These are bonafide persian men and women. They dont believe in sharia in the sense that they believe it but have reached tariqah and dont practice it. This is because they already practice the ADAAB which means respect legal and civil rights or others. Sharia is nothing but codification of the civil and criminal laws.

This is BS that you have totally made up. I don't know of any such tariqahs as you have described nor that look at the (outer aspects of the) Shari'ah as optional, nor that gather in the way you have described except that they know they are sinning and going against Islam.

Next, it is true that some of the members of the Tariqah, specifically the Khoja who speak Gujjarati have posted the videos of the gatherings on the internet. These are NOT the videos of the religious congregation but rather the SOCIAL functions. I can show you many videos or photos of Ithanshari women of Iranian without hijab.

Your men and women are singing and dancing, showing plenty of skin and free mixing like animals all over the place, right inside the social hall area of your "jamatkhanas."

Videos showing this have been posted in other threads here and can be found on Youtube (although may not be easy to find).

Here is merely one example from the official Wilfrid Laurier Ismaili Students Association (WLISA) - which is directly supported by the Aga Khan led ITREB Canada (Ismaili Tariqah and Religious Education Board of Canada):

[video of Ismailis dancing to music in their 'religious centre' removed, because the content is not Islamic]

Another example, right inside the social hall area of the Melbourne Nizari Ismaili Jamatkhana:

[video of Ismailis dancing to music in their 'religious centre' removed, because the content is not Islamic]

Yes, you can keep your arms on the side, or fold them on your chest or above the belly, any way, but you cannot call each other non-muslims.

Since you guys don't even do namaz, this point is irrelevant. Don't know know why you bring it up. Nizari Ismailis are always sitting and can do whatever they want with their hands during their recital of their shirk-infested 'Holy Du'a' that they are supposed to say thrice daily instead of the 5x daily namaz.

90% of the Namaz is the same across the Muslim Ummah. It is well know that the Prophet (pbuh) didn't always pray 100% exactly the same way. He occasionally made minor variations in the prayer. So, it is natural that Muslims have minor differences in the performance of the Namaz - but, these differences are limited and fixed and have evidences to back them up.

Nizari Ismailis, on the other hand, have many differences between each other in the way they say their 'Holy Du'a' and disagree on significant aspects of it such as how the hands should be kept and how one may sit (cross-legged, zig-zag legged, etc.) during the reciting of the "Holy Du'a" or even where it may be said, how it is to be made up for, and so forth. Neither the Aga Khan nor any of his family members have ever been seen by anyone ever saying your silly 'Holy Du'a,' so, there is no "right way" of saying it as far as Nizari Ismailism is concerned. It is a total free-for-all.

P.S. The 5 times for prayer are mentioned in the Qur'an, even though Nizari Ismailis have been brainwashed to believe otherwise:

(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11:114, 24:58

(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 17:78 and 30:18

(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr in Arabic), given in 2:238

(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11:114

(5) The Night Prayer (Isha in Arabic), given in 24:58

Edited by Haji 2003

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have spoken to scholars of high standing and status in the hawza, and they have emphatically affirmed that ismailis are believers, with traditions that have emerged from bonafide traditions of the imams.

Without Unity this forum and the world-community is relegated to a bunch of isolated keyboard warriors- too afraid to leave the safety of their own homes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have spoken to scholars of high standing and status in the hawza,

Many a status given is not in the least deserved.

and they have emphatically affirmed that ismailis are believers, with traditions that have emerged from bonafide traditions of the imams.

Oh really... I'd quite interested in trying to how someone would be able to find such "traditions"..

Without Unity this forum and the world-community is relegated to a bunch of isolated keyboard warriors- too afraid to leave the safety of their own homes.

There is no unity with heretics, unless you join them in their heresy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was a poor attack, and using Shaykh Imran Hossein as your foundation. He would class you as a heretic rather than a sufi, as you practice none of the basics of Islam as someone already mentioned.

Try again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have spoken to scholars of high standing and status in the hawza, and they have emphatically affirmed that ismailis are believers, with traditions that have emerged from bonafide traditions of the imams.

Without Unity this forum and the world-community is relegated to a bunch of isolated keyboard warriors- too afraid to leave the safety of their own homes.

If that true, perhaps they referred to Musta`li, not Nizari.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If that true, perhaps they referred to Musta`li, not Nizari.

Reference was made to the fact that Nizaris make sijda in the direction of the agha khan, and that this derives from the authentic tradition of considering the imam as your Qibla. That this tradition was not ghuloo3 or shirk, and that it is a different understanding of what should be a mainstream concept amongst shia3 of all traditions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Saying that Shariah, prayer, fasting, hajj, and zakat are optional goes against the Qur'an, and disbelieving in the Qur'an means disbelieving in Islam.

Ismailis never quote any of these as optional. It is just that all these pillars have different dimensions. Ismailis follow the batin interpretation of Quran just like Sufism. Please read this from top to bottom and you'll understand what I mean to say : http://www.shiachat....-ismaili-tawil/

Edited by Arlene

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...