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Logical Islam

Zanjeer(flogging) Has Ruined Hussain(a.s.) Message

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Ammar Nakhwani is an islamic scholar who would do research a few times before saying anything. He said it is CULTURAL, it is definitely cultrual.

I broadly agree with what you are saying in this thread (although I think the way you are putting it probably isn't going to lead to anything productive), but relying on Ammar Nakshawani is not a very good idea. First fo all, he is not an Islamic scholar in the sense the term is usually understood, and secondly he probably has very different private views on this issue to the ones you saw expressed in that lecture.

There is however no doubt that it is cultural. Even the supporters of this stuff can't deny that, unless they are completely delusional.

i sometimes shy away about explaining ashura to non muslims. one google image search and it's finished.

All the more reason to explain it then, so that they can understand what it is they are seeing when they do their google seach, and realise that it has nothing to do with Islam.

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Imam Hussein a.s saves Islam

we go against the teaching of self harm written in the Quran as thanks.

we taint the message and put many people of, by our images of blood-drenching and self mutilation and harm.

we do it because we see other people doing it, and we will answer to God on the day of judgement

i only care because the few that do this are ruining the truth and name of my religion.

(salam)

chill out, I'm not going against islam by doing zanjeer . Rather the bad muslims , al-qaida and such are giving a bad image on islam, not the one's performing zanjeer.

we are NOT performing tatbeer.. i repeat :NO blood . Just zanjeer , a traditional way of mourning and a beautiful way. it does not hurt and it doesn't give a bad image.

if we do not mourn properly , we will soon forget the message of hussain and that would be bad .

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i repeat :NO blood . Just zanjeer

you are thinking of the wrong zanjeer. this is the zanjeer the op means:

Ammar Nakhswani said this is cultural.

in his latest lecture he says follow ur marja. he has changed his position from pro to anti to this one. "if their maeja allows then i am sure their marja has adequate proof". i wish he stuck to his guns. either be pro or anti. dont flip flop.

about 53 mins

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If people don't beat themselves with chains then the message of Husayn (as) will be lost?

i repeat what i said : if we do not mourn properly , we will soon forget the message of hussain and that would be bad

Mourning includes doing processions in the west, going out in the streets and informing people..that's for the west

As for the east, tradition is very common there , they have no atheist to spread the message of islam..they just have it between themselves...so mourning properly should include a traditional ritual

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I agree with all those against mutilating ourselves with blades. If you believe destroying our skin with a tattoo is haraam, how can you justify using blades to cut ourselves?

If anything, I believe this takes away from the message of Imam Hussain, and takes our focus away from his martyrdom and towards inflicting pain on ourselves and acting macho about it, trying to one-up the person next to you by hitting yourself harder, or by striking yourself and bleeding more.

Let's not forget that blood is najis! How are we expected to pray when we are bleeding? Or when blood accidentally gets on the carpet at the masjid?

We must start speaking up against this nonsense when we see it, and I'm sure more will join us.

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Aslamalaykum,

guys is there anything that can help us getting conclusion in the end?

The solution is simple, the only reason why I don't participate in this act is because my marja does not allow it, if he did I wouldn't have a problem with it. On the other hand those that do participate their scholars allow it, that's why it so important to follow a scholar in fiqh issues because what might sound absurd to us we cannot reject outright as their rulings are dervied from Quran and Ahlul Bayt a.s the two main criterias.

This not the appropiate place to quote but I've read/heard rulings which sound absurd at first hand, which I did accept but it took me time to comprehend the wisdom behind certain rulings/fatwas.

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Brother that has nothing to do with the topic and I never set foot at a shrine so I'm not going to comment. If this is something that you believe in correct in Islam, then please prove it.

As some one already mentioned this arguement is fruitless no one is going to change their view

Just stop this overhere.

One thing, would Imam Mahdi do Tatbeer or Zanjeer?

Cam u Imagine ur imam doing that?

Do imam mehdi nauzobillah drives a car ?

So why do you?

Or he watches the football or cricket match?

How can you say that imam mehdi doesn't do tatbeer?

What's wrong in the tatbeer?

I believe there should be a campaign on stopping zanjir zani because this truely is very outrageous to non shias/muslims and will keep them away from our beliefs.

yoooooooo waowww why don't you start it dude ? Come on start the campaign be the leader and make sure you come at my place to stop will have a lot of fun lol go on best of luck buddy

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I believe there should be a campaign on stopping zanjir zani because this truely is very outrageous to non shias/muslims and will keep them away from our beliefs.

Do you have evidence for this or just your own personal opinion? Because I'd venture more people have veered away from Islam by the actions of sunni terrrorists than zanjeerzani - so should we ban sunnis too?

How about hijab, or ritual slaughter? I can't comment for where you live but in the West these have been described by the media as "barbaric", "cruel", "inhumane" and other such titles - so to appease the non-Muslims should we s[Edited Out] purdah and halaal slaughter?

One thing, would Imam Mahdi do Tatbeer or Zanjeer?

Cam u Imagine ur imam doing that?

This is an absurd comment. Would (or did) any Imam (as) join a circle or line of people and beat their chests in unison whilst a nawha/latmiya was being recited? No, but is that done all over the Shi'ah world now? Yes.

If someone cried so hard for the tragedy of Kerbala their eyes leaked blood would you suggest the person is being extreme and should refrain from such hard crying?

But, as others said, better for OP to use the search function as it's been done to death + there is variance on the (occasionally ambiguous sounding) rulings on tatbir/zanjeerzani so people will have their view on it.

ALI

ALI

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Google images of Shia Islam are all these men soaked in blood from head to toe :(

Or little 3 year old kids drenched in their blood

Whereas, you google Sunni Islam and you get some normal pictures.

I Love the step Iran took in these matters!

But what's the use people curse khameinei here and there and do more Kama zani , it only creates hatred among our self why don't people understand this beleive me dude what ever this antis will do

I said whatever but it's not gonna stop beleive me and remember this till the last breath of your life, this practice was,is, and will always there.

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Aslamalaykum,

But what's the use people curse khameinei here and there and do more Kama zani

Does it make them right by cursing the great leader? Ayatollah Khamanei may Allah swt bless Him and prolong his life, if he gives a ruling/fatwa it is because he thinks what is good for Islam not the opposite.

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Aslamalaykum,

Does it make them right by cursing the great leader? Ayatollah Khamanei may Allah swt bless Him and prolong his life, if he gives a ruling/fatwa it is because he thinks what is good for Islam not the opposite.

Whoever is against tatbeer they curse them no matter even if it's his own father or khamenei or anyone

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No one should curse khamenei or other ulema. Those who do tatbir should do it without being offensive to other Shia brothers and sisters, and without insulting ulema. And others should also not insult those who do it ,and the scholars who allow it. Follow the scholars who allow it, but that doesn't mean you should curse others. Respectfully convey your arguments. Ulema themselves differ on many issues among themselves but they don't do cursing though they do sometimes severe criticisms but not an indecent one.

No matter if we have differences, if scholars will be cursed what will our enemies think? They 'll be happy on it, so we must remain united inspite of our differences.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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No one should curse khamenei or other ulema. Those who do tatbir should do it without being offensive to other Shia brothers and sisters, and without insulting ulema. And others should also not insult those who do it ,and the scholars who allow it. Follow the scholars who allow it, but that doesn't mean you should curse others. Respectfully convey your arguments. Ulema themselves differ on many issues among themselves but they don't do cursing though they do sometimes severe criticisms but not an indecent one.

No matter if we have differences, if scholars will be cursed what will our enemies think? They 'll be happy on it, so we must remain united inspite of our differences.

+1 but unfortunately there are people who curse.

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To be honest the only people I've heard complaining about blood letting are certain Shiites and occasionally a Muslim from another school of thought. I think a lot of people are making it a much bigger deal than it is.

Ammar Nakhwani is an islamic scholar

Allahu A'lam

who would do research a few times before saying anything.

Allahu A'lam

Wallahu A'lam

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I think everyone who likes it should stick to it and those who don't should might as well keep their disagreements to themselves.

How hard is it for you people to agree to disagree ?

Az Madar-e-Hussain mee tarsem (I fear Hussain’s mother). This matter is between Hussain and his mourners.

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How hard is it for you people to agree to disagree ?

This is something I've never understood brother. People are prepared to conceal historical facts and disallow mentioning the oppression of the ahlulbayt (as) from the mimbar, for the sake of unity, but they can't agree to have different stances on a minor issue that is talked about more by the Shia than any other group. Sunnis will only marginally mention this, there are other things about Shi'ism that they have bigger issues with. Non-muslims have bigger issues with Islam and most of them don't even know that blood-letting actually occurs among some Shiites.

Az Madar-e-Hussain mee tarsem (I fear Hussain’s mother). This matter is between Hussain and his mourners.

Subhanallah, I believe this is a quote from the great 'aalim, the late sayyed al isfahani.

Edited by Follower

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Az Madar-e-Hussain mee tarsem (I fear Hussain’s mother). This matter

is between Hussain and his mourners.

Mashallah awesome quote really really beautiful if all the people will start thinking like this then I am sure we will cut up this issue and it will make more good relaxation further

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Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't these blood letting rituals almost non-existent until Allama Majlisi revived this practice onto the masses?

If so, than these rituals are fairly new and it is better if we stick to our classical traditions right?

But what's the use people curse khameinei here and there and do more Kama zani , it only creates hatred among our self why don't people understand this beleive me dude what ever this antis will do

I said whatever but it's not gonna stop beleive me and remember this till the last breath of your life, this practice was,is, and will always there.

Those who curse great leaders like Ayatollah Khomeini and Khamenai are those idiotic malangs or people with that irrational mentality.

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^^Have you seen those videos where wahaabis killed Shias after identifying their Zanjeer marks on their backs. If the jaahil wahaabi of today has this idea, then couldn't umayyads and abbasids got this? It's quite understandable, why we don't see such practices back then.

Nobody is convincing those who don't do, that they should do this but those who do let them stay at peace, their scholars have no issues why are others so concerned.? BTW i don't think there is anything significant in this thread need to be discussed anymore, many rational,and balanced replies had been given by others.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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I am curious, what is the age were we can do these blood letting rituals?

I have seen mothers and fathers all happy were their 3 year old is drench in his own blood. What a pathetic sight, the poor kid doesn't even know what is happening to him.

Can we do this ritual to a boy who is younger than 3?

Just wondering.

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I am curious, what is the age were we can do these blood letting rituals?

I have seen mothers and fathers all happy were their 3 year old is drench in his own blood. What a pathetic sight, the poor kid doesn't even know what is happening to him.

Can we do this ritual to a boy who is younger than 3?

Just wondering.

Your objection is quite similar to those human rights activists in the west, who demands ban on male child's circumcision as a little minor looses lot of blood and he couldn't even consent for this 'barbaric' religious practice, Germany has already banned and Austria, and Switzerland are just contemplating. So you agree with them too? If not then kindly be consistent with your arguments.

BTW these kids are not even three who get circumcised so the west feels appalled at their blood-loss even more.

BTW we should commend brother true sunni. Even if he may still disagrees with us, at least he has learnt to respect the feelings of Shias.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Muslim men who shave, women who don't do hijab, Muslims who have girlfriends/boyfriends, people who claim to be Muslims then drink, dance, have illicit sexual relations, eat haram, lie, cheat, deceive, steal from the government, don't pray or fast, never give in charity, openly commit sins and announce them, never do the wajibat are all 'ruining the image of Islam' yet I never see threads about these issues, which are unanimously haraam/wajib.

Yet people keep harping on about zanjeer. Some maraj'e allow it, others don't. Just follow your marj'a and get on with your life.

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The problem is not zanjeer, the problem is that men take their shirts off (in a place where only men are) and someone records it and puts it up publicly. I think from now removing the shirt should not be allowed, or that it should only be allowed indoors with no permission to videotape.

Edited by Muhammad Ibrahim

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Your objection is quite similar to those human rights activists in the west, who demands ban on male child's circumcision as a little minor looses lot of blood and he couldn't even consent for this 'barbaric' religious practice, Germany has already banned and Austria, and Switzerland are just contemplating. So you agree with them too? If not then kindly be consistent with your arguments.

BTW these kids are not even three who get circumcised so the west feels appalled at their blood-loss even more.

BTW we should commend brother true sunni. Even if he may still disagrees with us, at least he has learnt to respect the feelings of Shias.

Removing the foreskin is just a small piece of skin, nothing big in it.

Whereas, a kid who is completely drenched in his own blood is another.

Also have you seen zanjeer zani?

Edited by GreyMatter

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Removing the foreskin is just a small piece of skin, nothing big in it.

Whereas, a kid who is completely drenched in his own blood is another.

Also have you seen zanjeer zani?

Yes ofcourse many times before my eyes, being done by thousand of men.

Whether its a piece of skin, some children bleed more, west is not yelling at mere piece of skin being removed, if you ask i can show you a reliable western media report which says a Muslim doctor was charged after a child bleeds continuously and was taken to hospital, where people went to file a case.

Our children are not precious than Ali Asghar(as) if His mother could send Him to battlefield to get drenched in blood then why can't our mothers do so to pay Him and His great Mother a little tribute. He was not even three but six months old merely.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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