Zanjeer(flogging) Has Ruined Hussain(a.s.) Message

[Logical Islam]

Type in Muharram in google images and you see people out of ignorance - due to culture- and not as a result of the teachings of islam, publically flogging themselves and making themselves bleed.

Ammar Nakhswani said this is cultural. Not islamic. It is HARRAM to me. the Quran says "do not destroy yourselves". (no suicide, self harm).

Matam i.e lightly beating ones chest is allowed! it's a symbolic show of sadness, to connect with the sadness and tough times Imam Hussein had during ashura.

If anyone agree's with zanjeer, let him or her be allowed this opinion. But free mind and consider why Imam Hussein even went to karbala? To save the message of Islam, to stand up to a tyrant. He was a symbol of opression vs freedom fighters.

He would either die a hero of islam, or live long enough to accept the bayat of yazeed and become a villian by allowing islam to be ruined.

(read up on why karbala was significant).

Karbala was not some event to give people an excuse to make themselves bleed. I see no connection whatsoever. They BLED so you don't have to.

Instead of ruining this message, go spread peace, internet or campaign against oppressive regimes, use karbala to spread the message of palestine ect during the processions.

[WilayaBlood]

Aslamalaykum,

That wasn't logical, you've now started a war on sc. Wait for all the responses flood in......................

Some scholars allow it, others don't we have to respect both parties, as we can enforce our opinion on anyone.

Edited August 23, 2012 by muslimunity1

[Logical Islam]

Aslamalaykum,

That wasn't logical, you've now started a war on sc. Wait for all the responses flooding in......................

I don't believe the contents of my original post are meant to start any kind of conflict.

Truth is clear from error.

I have quotes a scholar saying it is not part of Islam, a very prominent one.

We will answer our own books on the day of judgements.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

I don't believe the contents of my original post are meant to start any kind of conflict.

Truth is clear from error.

I have quotes a scholar saying it is not part of Islam, a very prominent one.

We will answer our own books on the day of judgements.

Use google search engine, you'll come across the long list of threads on it, and see your opponents also have arguments of scholars. Truth is not uni-dimensional, and everyone perceives his concept to be true, so i strongly advise you to search old ones, such arguments have been ended in nothing with neither of the group changing the opinions, but derailing the threads to almost twenty pages.

[Logical Islam]

Use google search engine, you'll come across the long list of threads on it, and see your opponents also have arguments of scholars. Truth is not uni-dimensional, and everyone perceives his concept to be true, so i strongly advise you to search old ones, such arguments have been ended in nothing with neither of the group changing the opinions, but derailing the threads to almost twenty pages.

Verywell, let the public flogging, public bleeding be broad-casted across all internet media to fully ruin the perceptions of islam.

This is not Islamic, and goes against the Quran...

[Gotham]

[Noura_Shi'a]

Type in Muharram in google images and you see people out of ignorance - due to culture- and not as a result of the teachings of islam, publically flogging themselves and making themselves bleed.

Ammar Nakhswani said this is cultural. Not islamic. It is HARRAM to me. the Quran says "do not destroy yourselves". (no suicide, self harm).

Matam i.e lightly beating ones chest is allowed! it's a symbolic show of sadness, to connect with the sadness and tough times Imam Hussein had during ashura.

If anyone agree's with zanjeer, let him or her be allowed this opinion. But free mind and consider why Imam Hussein even went to karbala? To save the message of Islam, to stand up to a tyrant. He was a symbol of opression vs freedom fighters.

He would either die a hero of islam, or live long enough to accept the bayat of yazeed and become a villian by allowing islam to be ruined.

(read up on why karbala was significant).

Karbala was not some event to give people an excuse to make themselves bleed. I see no connection whatsoever. They BLED so you don't have to.

Instead of ruining this message, go spread peace, internet or campaign against oppressive regimes, use karbala to spread the message of palestine ect during the processions.

There isnt anything about not allowing it at all. I see u mentioned Ammar Nakshawani's lecture, and yes he tells that this is something cultural BUT this is for the religion, and by that it isnt haram to do this. But still, there r some limits on how to do it and for which intention the person have.

U cant actually hurt urself that much , so u r almost near death + there r ppl who do it just to show others how religious they r. These both r wrong. Some ppl prefer to show their sadness in this way, and other dont, so i think ppl should have the choice for doing it or not. It is between the human and Allah.

(its late and im tired, so i may be unclear at some points)

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Aslamalaykum,

That wasn't logical, you've now started a war on sc. Wait for all the responses flooding in......................

What's not logical is the idiotic actions of some individuals that participate in this barbaric ritual.

Honestly use your common sense, how is running around in the streets with no shirt on, striking your heads with swords, weapons and what not logical or good for Islam?

Unless the supporters of this Bid'a can provide me with an authentic Hadith from the Ahlul Bayt (as) which says this is permissible, you surey must accept it is a Bid'a and all Bid'a leads to Hell-Fire.

[Logical Islam]

There isnt anything about not allowing it at all. I see u mentioned Ammar Nakshawani's lecture, and yes he tells that this is something cultural BUT this is for the religion, and by that it isnt haram to do this. But still, there r some limits on how to do it and for which intention the person have.

U cant actually hurt urself that much , so u r almost near death + there r ppl who do it just to show others how religious they r. These both r wrong. Some ppl prefer to show their sadness in this way, and other dont, so i think ppl should have the choice for doing it or not. It is between the human and Allah.

(its late and im tired, so i may be unclear at some points)

He said it is cultural, and not islamic.

Therefore it is not derived from the teachings of the prophet, or those chosen to gaurd the teachings of the prophet.

It promotes self harm, going against the holy Quran, and this body was lended to us by God to look after it and complete the test we call life.

It gives islam a bad message.

It ruins the message of Imam Hussain(a.s.)

need i go on brother?

What's not logical is the idiotic actions of some individuals that participate in this barbaric ritual.

Honestly use your common sense, how is running around in the streets with no shirt on, striking your heads with swords, weapons and what not logical or good for Islam?

Unless the supporters of this Bid'a can provide me with an authentic Hadith from the Ahlul Bayt (as) which says this is permissible, you surey must accept it is a Bid'a and all Bid'a leads to Hell-Fire.

Exactly...

Had it not been for this truly nonsensical act, the message of Imam Hussain a.s. i.e the message of islam, and also standing up to oppression would be better undertood.

I told a non muslim who wanted to know about ashura to do research. She googled it, and the rest was history.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

What's not logical is the idiotic actions of some individuals that participate in this barbaric ritual.

Honestly use your common sense, how is running around in the streets with no shirt on, striking your heads with swords, weapons and what not logical or good for Islam?

Unless the supporters of this Bid'a can provide me with an authentic Hadith from the Ahlul Bayt (as) which says this is permissible, you surey must accept it is a Bid'a and all Bid'a leads to Hell-Fire.

You are so quick on deciding others' matters of fate, whether it 'll be hell or heaven. just worry for yourself, you are not accountable for anyone. I gave you narrations about Syeda Zainab(as) hurting her head but you people are wayyyyy toooooo stubborn, so as i predicted this thread is useless. And all brothers and sisters should stay away from wasting their time in this oft-repeated topic.

[Noura_Shi'a]

He said it is cultural, and not islamic.

Therefore it is not derived from the teachings of the prophet, or those chosen to gaurd the teachings of the prophet.

It promotes self harm, going against the holy Quran, and this body was lended to us by God to look after it and complete the test we call life.

It gives islam a bad message.

It ruins the message of Imam Hussain(a.s.)

need i go on brother?

I think this is more of a personal case. I recommend u to listen to this lecture from Nakshawani, and u will get the answers for why this isnt haram. But of course as u said, its sad when i search for Muharram/Kerbela/Ashura etc. and find mostly these pics.

(im a sister)

[Hot hot]

He said it is cultural, and not islamic.

Therefore it is not derived from the teachings of the prophet, or those chosen to gaurd the teachings of the prophet.

It promotes self harm, going against the holy Quran, and this body was lended to us by God to look after it and complete the test we call life.

It gives islam a bad message.

It ruins the message of Imam Hussain(a.s.)

need i go on brother?

Exactly...

Had it not been for this truly nonsensical act, the message of Imam Hussain a.s. i.e the message of islam, and also standing up to oppression would be better undertood.

I told a non muslim who wanted to know about ashura to do research. She googled it, and the rest was history.

Ammar ammar ammar why don't you people make him an ayatollah ?

So what if he is an anti ?

How does it ruin the message of Husain a.s?

Do the pros drag others to beat themselves with blades , you can beat your Chest to mourn but they cAnnot beat theirselves with their chains?

Chains is theirs

Blade is theirs

Hand is theirs

Blood is theirs

They are beating to themselves why you people has a problem in it ?

[Logical Islam]

I think this is more of a personal case. I recommend u to listen to this lecture from Nakshawani, and u will get the answers for why this isnt haram. But of course as u said, its sad when i search for Muharram/Kerbela/Ashura etc. and find mostly these pics.

(im a sister)

He says it is not islamic.

Therefore it has no part in Islam

Sister, i am not gaining anything of profit from telling anyone this. I would not launch an attack unless i was absolutely sure.

Maybe you have family or friends that do it. Let that not cloud your judgement.

Think freely. Atleast!

[Hot hot]

What's not logical is the idiotic actions of some individuals that participate in this barbaric ritual.

Honestly use your common sense, how is running around in the streets with no shirt on, striking your heads with swords, weapons and what not logical or good for Islam?

Unless the supporters of this Bid'a can provide me with an authentic Hadith from the Ahlul Bayt (as) which says this is permissible, you surey must accept it is a Bid'a and all Bid'a leads to Hell-Fire.

Show me any hadees where imam as said to make his shrines and doors of gold or beleive that you are doing bidah

[WilayaBlood]

Aslamalaykum,

@Ali Musaa

What's not logical is the idiotic actions of some individuals that participate in this barbaric ritual.

Don't need to be that harsh, there are ways to explain things. I don't agree with it personally but I always advice them to check with their marja.

Honestly use your common sense, how is running around in the streets with no shirt on, striking your heads with swords, weapons and what not logical or good for Islam?

I do agree with you that shirts should not be taken off on the streets, again for zanjeer zani they should check with their scholars.

Edited August 23, 2012 by muslimunity1

[Haji 2003]

I told a non muslim who wanted to know about ashura to do research. She googled it, and the rest was history.

Cultures vary, different people commemorate in different ways.

You can't legislate for what is acceptable and what isn't based on your own cultural preferences and those of your kafir friends.

Christians in the Philippines voluntarily crucify themselves. Does that reflect on the religion and other Christians?

No it doesn't.

[Logical Islam]

Ammar ammar ammar why don't you people make him an ayatollah ?

So what if he is an anti ?

How does it ruin the message of Husain a.s?

Do the pros drag others to beat themselves with blades , you can beat your Chest to mourn but they cAnnot beat theirselves with their chains?

Chains is theirs

Blade is theirs

Hand is theirs

Blood is theirs

They are beating to themselves why you people has a problem in it ?

Ammar Nakhwani is an islamic scholar who would do research a few times before saying anything. He said it is CULTURAL, it is definitely cultrual.

It ruins the message of Imam Hussain a.s. because when someone googles 'ashura' , you have people drenched in blood, commiting gross acts of self harm. I urge you to think for yourself, is this the message of kerbala we wan't to project to the world ?

What was Kerbala about? GOOD standing up against EVIL.

They bled for a reason! they had no other choice. They gave their lives for us.

Hand and blood is not theirs. It is the property of God almighty. And he clearly says in the Quran ' do NOT destroy yourselves'

no self harm, no suicide.

Cultures vary, different people commemorate in different ways.

You can't legislate for what is acceptable and what isn't based on your own cultural preferences and those of your kafir friends.

Christians in the Philippines voluntarily crucify themselves. Does that reflect on the religion and other Christians?

No it doesn't.

I am basing my beliefs on Islam and NOT culture.

Islam forbids self harm, and zanjeer is not at all islamic but totally cultural.

I dislike the way you said 'kafir' A kafir is an unbeliever. I.E someone who has been clearly told the message and understands it to be true, but rejects it.

Not someone who gets a distorted version or who has never heard the message. Either you or i could be born 'kafir'.

It is harram on two levels: harms yourself, and harms the message of Imam Hussain a.s.

If one feels THAT strongly, carry his message on, campaign against in justice.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Logical Islam

[Hot hot]

Ammar Nakhwani is an islamic scholar who would do research a few times before saying anything. He said it is CULTURAL, it is definitely cultrual.

It ruins the message of Imam Hussain a.s. because when someone googles 'ashura' , you have people drenched in blood, commiting gross acts of self harm. I urge you to think for yourself, is this the message of kerbala we wan't to project to the world ?

What was Kerbala about? GOOD standing up against EVIL.

They bled for a reason! they had no other choice. They gave their lives for us.

Hand and blood is not theirs. It is the property of God almighty. And he clearly says in the Quran ' do NOT destroy yourselves'

no self harm, no suicide.

Well so take a bundle of rope and be ready I will message you later so that you can come and tie all of them who do this ok

[Logical Islam]

Well so take a bundle of rope and be ready I will message you later so that you can come and tie all of them who do this ok

If we truly represent the ones who preserved the teachings of the final prophet pbuh, brother, i don't know what non-constructive messages like this are coming from?

[Noura_Shi'a]

He says it is not islamic.

He also says that it is cultural BUT for the sake of Islam, so then it isnt haram as u r telling us.

Sister, i am not gaining anything of profit from telling anyone this. I would not launch an attack unless i was absolutely sure.

Brother, im not accusing u for doing it either, but i just dont agree with u.

Maybe you have family or friends that do it. Let that not cloud your judgement.

Think freely. Atleast!

My whole family r sunni muslims. My points r just based on research i made before i converted to Shia islam.

[Logical Islam]

Show me any hadees where imam as said to make his shrines and doors of gold or beleive that you are doing bidah

You logic = the imams have not said not to do something, therefore lets do it.

The Quran tells us to erect mosques on the graves of the pious.

The Quran tells us not to destroy ourselves i.e commit self harm or suicide.

He also says that it is cultural BUT for the sake of Islam, so then it isnt haram as u r telling us.

Brother, im not accusing u for doing it either, but i just dont agree with u.

My whole family r sunni muslims. My points r just based on research i made before i converted to Shia islam.

Sister, i am a muslim who follows the shia school of thought for my jurisprudence in Islam.

This is not part of our school of thought, as much as arranged marriages are. Both these things are harram, and cultural.

Self-Harm, according to the Quran is forbidden. The best way to remember Imam Hussain a.s. is to listen to what happened during Kerbala, and relate it to your time. What can you do to help the oppressed?

Sister, you must have used open minded thinking to make a change of schools, so use that to think clearly once again.

logically,

you accept this is cultural and not to do with the teachings of the prophet pbuh.

therefore it is not part of shia or sunni islam.

now, does it go against the Quran ?

yes it does...self harm is clearly forbidden. light mattam is a symbolic way to show grief! which is certainly allowed and does not harm at all

Edited August 23, 2012 by Logical Islam

[Kaniz e Zahra]

I dislike the way you said 'kafir' A kafir is an unbeliever. I.E someone who has been clearly told the message and understands it to be true, but rejects it.

Not someone who gets a distorted version or who has never heard the message. Either you or i could be born 'kafir'.

Whats wrong he said, what is it to attribute a son to God? is n't it a shirk, and what shirk is? kufr. You pretend to be so clear on self flogging but not clear about kufr and imaan.

What would anyone say about Lady Rubab(as) sitting under scorching heat for years, while not drinking a cold water even ,which caused her skin to be burnt ,and She used to remain in fevers. So was it self flagellation or not? Burning yourself in heat cause you harm ,or good? But Imam(as) of Her time never called it bidah, as you rushed to call.

So was He silent on bidaah nauzbillah? or was She commiting suicide nauzbillah? Both of them knew Islam far better than you and us all.

There is Lady Zainab(as)'s example as well. The one who has been declared untaught scholar by Masoom(as).

Edited August 23, 2012 by Kaniz e Zahra

[Hot hot]

^ if you know the search feature then please use it there are many many threads of this which I was reading Wen I was a guest , it's just an Another feather to this crown.

You are using Quran against azadari

But you forget that the azadars mourn over the one who has save Quran only

Do you know Bibi zainab sa is the forst one to did matam when she saw he head of imam Husain as

Please do refer that threads its not worth arguing.

[Logical Islam]

Whats wrong he said, what is it to attribute a son to God? is n't it a shirk, and what shirk is kufr? You are so clear on self flogging but not clear about kufr and imaan.

What would anyone say about Lady Rubab(as) sitting under scorching heat for years, while not drinking a cold water even ,which caused her skin to be burnt ,and She used to remain in fevers. So was it self flagellation or not? Burning yourself in heat cause you harm ,or good? But Imam(as) of Her time never called it bidah, as you rushed to call.

Technically they are 'unbeleivers'

but the way he said ' your kafir friends' was meant maliciously, i felt. I just wanted to remind him that anyone could be born into any religion. If he did not mean it maliciously, i apologise.

Anything which harms the health of a person is Harram. (unless it is in self defence, i.e a war to protect yourself )

Sitting in the hot sun to remember a time where you suffered is not the same as taking a knife and making yourself bleed.

If anyone wants to sit in the sun to try to picture how 'hard' it must have been, go ahead.

Flogging is a barbaric , and unislamic practise.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Aslamalaykum,

@Ali Musaa

Don't need to be that harsh, there are ways to explain things. I don't agree with it personally but I always advice them to check with their marja.

I do agree with you that shirts should not be taken off on the streets, again for zanjeer zani they should check with their scholars.

Sorry Brother if I came across as harsh, I just don't want this Evil bid'a corrupting my beautiful Religion.

[Logical Islam]

^ if you know the search feature then please use it there are many many threads of this which I was reading Wen I was a guest , it's just an Another feather to this crown.

You are using Quran against azadari

But you forget that the azadars mourn over the one who has save Quran only

Do you know Bibi zainab sa is the forst one to did matam when she saw he head of imam Husain as

Please do refer that threads its not worth arguing.

Brother, perhaps at my own fault, i was unclear in what i was trying to say.

Azadaree, means a kind of coming together to remember the sacrifice the grandson of the prophet pbuh made, to stand up to tyranny and save islam.

I am not going against this practise at all.

Going to lectures to hear the tales, and lessons we can derive = i agree

Doing light mattam to symbolically show sadness.not harm = i agree

Crying = i agree

publically flogging ourselves with knives, making ourselves bleed, and scaring people of islam completely whilst going against the Quranic teaching of not inflicting self harm = neither 'azadaree' nor 'islamic' and only cultural.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Show me any hadees where imam as said to make his shrines and doors of gold or beleive that you are doing bidah

Brother that has nothing to do with the topic and I never set foot at a shrine so I'm not going to comment. If this is something that you believe in correct in Islam, then please prove it.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Technically they are 'unbeleivers'

but the way he said ' your kafir friends' was meant maliciously, i felt. I just wanted to remind him that anyone could be born into any religion. If he did not mean it maliciously, i apologise.

Anything which harms the health of a person is Harram. (unless it is in self defence, i.e a war to protect yourself )

Sitting in the hot sun to remember a time where you suffered is not the same as taking a knife and making yourself bleed.

If anyone wants to sit in the sun to try to picture how 'hard' it must have been, go ahead.

Flogging is a barbaric , and unislamic practise.

That is why i say this argument is futile, everyone knows how intense heat falls in Arabia. One can easily get sores on skin let alone who keeps sitting without shade. It would be far more painful than bleeding with knife.

But again there is no point of argument, nobody is going to change perspective, so search old threads, happy searching!

Edited August 23, 2012 by Kaniz e Zahra

[Logical Islam]

That is why i say this argument is futile, everyone knows how intense heat falls in Arabia. One can easily get sores on skin let alone who keeps sitting without shade. It would be far more painful than bleeding with knife.

But again there is no point of argument, nobody is going to change perspective, so search old threads, happy searching!

let us agree to disagree.

i will answer other posters.

if anyone asks you if this practise is islamic, atleast tell them ' no, it has no basis in islam, and is only cultural. many disagree with this practise, and at the same time, i and others agree'

[Ali Musaaa :)]

You are so quick on deciding others' matters of fate, whether it 'll be hell or heaven. just worry for yourself, you are not accountable for anyone. I gave you narrations about Syeda Zainab(as) hurting her head but you people are wayyyyy toooooo stubborn, so as i predicted this thread is useless. And all brothers and sisters should stay away from wasting their time in this oft-repeated topic.

I am worried about myself... The stupid actions of my fellow Muslims has an impact on me as well... Think of the Ummah and not be so greedy. If your actions are damaging to Islam why would continue? When people see this, how do you expect me to explain that to a non-Muslim?

I'm giving you the opinion of the Prophet (pbuh) isn't that Hadith accepted by all Schools? The one about every Bid'a leads to Hell-Fire?

[Logical Islam]

I am worried about myself... The stupid actions of my fellow Muslims has an impact on me as well... Think of the Ummah and not be so greedy. If your actions are damaging to Islam why would continue? When people see this, how do you expect me to explain that to a non-Muslim?

I'm giving you the opinion of the Prophet (pbuh) isn't that Hadith accepted by all Schools? The one about every Bid'a leads to Hell-Fire?

i sometimes shy away about explaining ashura to non muslims. one google image search and it's finished.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

let us agree to disagree.

i will answer other posters.

if anyone asks you if this practise is islamic, atleast tell them ' no, it has no basis in islam, and is only cultural. many disagree with this practise, and at the same time, i and others agree'

No i don't give this answer to others rather i say that it is not obligatory or necessary for every Shia, and it doesn't make you more, or less momin. But it doesn't give you right to call them wrong based on personal views, neither they have this right to mock at you for not doing this.

So i'll give this tolerant answer, which would be agreeable to both who do, and who don't.

[-Enlightened]

it may be a culture , but its a beautiful one !!

Imagine karbala during ashura without zanjeer ..that would be boring

[Logical Islam]

No i don't give this answer to others rather i say that it is not obligatory or necessary for every Shia, and it doesn't make you more, or less momin. But it doesn't give you right to call them wrong based on personal views, neither they have this right to mock at you for not doing this.

So i'll give this tolerant answer, which would be agreeable to both who do, and who don't.

we have both established it is cultural and not islamic.

Why don't you give the answer ammar nakhswani gave? it is not from islam, but cultural?

no malice intended, but do not mislead unknowing people sis.

These are not my own cooked up personal views!These are the views i have been told in the Quran .

"do not destroy yourselves" = flogging yourself with blades is not acceptable. It is self harm on a body God almighty has lended to you.

It has nothing to do with Kerbala.

it may be a culture , but its a beautiful one !!

Imagine karbala during ashura without zanjeer ..that would be boring

Imam Hussein a.s saves Islam

we go against the teaching of self harm written in the Quran as thanks.

we taint the message and put many people of, by our images of blood-drenching and self mutilation and harm.

we do it because we see other people doing it, and we will answer to God on the day of judgement

i only care because the few that do this are ruining the truth and name of my religion.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Logical Islam

[GreyMatter]

Google images of Shia Islam are all these men soaked in blood from head to toe :(

Or little 3 year old kids drenched in their blood

Whereas, you google Sunni Islam and you get some normal pictures.

I Love the step Iran took in these matters!