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Would You Ever Move Back?

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

Personally, I think the imitation of negative Western notions are more dangerous and harmful anywhere in the Middle East.

As for Iraq, there are too many outside forces controlling the situation. This makes recovery difficult. Were it in the hands of sincere and God fearing Iraqis, they could rebuild their land and thrive just as the United States did.

Do you have any specific outside forces in mind?

Iraq has a lot of issues preventing its growth. Its lack of technological development, the complete reliance on oil revenue for domestic growth, a bloated government bureaucracy, levels of nepotism and corruption in government positions, over zealous de-ba3thification that led to the loss of many skilled technocrats, the fact that a great portion of the year is rendered useless for schools and businesses due to the unregulated influx of pilgrims, the relations between Baghdad and Kurdistan.

These are all legitimate issues that need to be addressed.

I don't think its biggest issues are outside forces interfering, although it seems like this is the go to explanation for many.

Edited by Zahratul_Islam

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Do you have any specific outside forces in mind?

Iraq has a lot of issues preventing its growth. Its lack of technological development, the complete reliance on oil revenue for domestic growth, a bloated government bureaucracy, levels of nepotism and corruption in government positions, over zealous de-ba3thification that led to the loss of many skilled technocrats, the fact that a great portion of the year is rendered useless for schools and businesses due to the unregulated influx of pilgrims, the relations between Baghdad and Kurdistan.

These are all legitimate issues that need to be addressed.

I don't think its biggest issues are outside forces interfering, although it seems like this is the go to explanation for many.

I was referring to the involvement of the United States (a major factor), Turkey and Iran cutting off water supplies, other nations sending trained terrorists and weapons, and certain groups encouraging the Sunni-Shia divide, etc.

Of course, the factors you listed are also relevent. First time I hear about unregulated influx of pilgrims though, interesting.

Oh, the Kurds... I blame the Kurds for uneasy relations between them and and the rest of the nations.

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

I was referring to the involvement of the United States (a major factor), Turkey and Iran cutting off water supplies, other nations sending trained terrorists and weapons, and certain groups encouraging the Sunni-Shia divide, etc.

Of course, the factors you listed are also relevent. First time I hear about unregulated influx of pilgrims though, interesting.

Oh, the Kurds... I blame the Kurds for uneasy relations between them and and the rest of the nations.

Iraq still has to deal with and have relations with foreign countries. It can't cut itself off from the rest of the world. I don't think the leadership of Iraq is not being "sincere and God fearing" in dealing with these issues, nor have they been unduly influenced by malicious (usually I would cringe at using that word in the context of foreign relations but Iraq is an *impassioned* exception to my general impartiality) forces. Maliki has behaved relatively reasonably given the tough circumstances. Plenty of room for improvement and critique, but nothing that would make me think he didn't fear God.

The Shia-Sunni divide has always been there, it was just kept under wraps by an autocrat who let one group have precedence over the other. There are plenty of peaceful Sunnis in Iraq who want to live in unity with their Shia brethren, but there is also the presence of groups like the ISI. There are many sectarian elements that are not foreign grown in Iraq, nor the product of outside forces. While the latter certainly exists, it would have less of an influence without support from within Iraq itself.

Yeah, the schools in places like Karbala are closed half the year. I understand that Saddam never permitted us our ziarah and we want to get decades of it out of our system.. but i hope that the issue can be addressed by lessening public holidays and perhaps building schools on the outskirts of the town to avoid the traffic.

The Kurds don't care if you blame them or like them. They don't trust anybody and they look out for for themselves. I like to chastise them for it, but alas it is only half hearted. My Sumer-Kurdish alliance was but a lovely little fantasy. For the time being, that is. Kurds really hate to burn bridges. :donno:

Edited by Zahratul_Islam

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I was referring to the involvement of the United States (a major factor), Turkey and Iran cutting off water supplies, other nations sending trained terrorists and weapons, and certain groups encouraging the Sunni-Shia divide, etc.

Of course, the factors you listed are also relevent. First time I hear about unregulated influx of pilgrims though, interesting.

Oh, the Kurds... I blame the Kurds for uneasy relations between them and and the rest of the nations.

Iran cutting off water supplies?

and... you blame the victims?

:donno:

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Iran cutting off water supplies?

and... you blame the victims?

:donno:

Pardon, I made a mistake. I didn't mean to add the s to "nations." I just mean they are to blame for problems between Arabs and Kurds in Iraq... In my opinion, that is.

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Salam, I am married to an Iraqi, but I am an english revert who has been muslim for 10 years. Inshallah I will be going for ziyarah and to visit family in October/November time inshallah, and will get to see what Iraq is really like. I have discussed with my husband maybe one day going to live there and our family has already bought some land near to Kufa. I will have to see what it is really like and how my life would change before making a definite decision either way. I, like many muslims have both an idealistic of the shia majority places in the middle east, but I also understand that muslims who live there may be protected from certain overt sins, but that there are many hypocrites over there as well and that you wouldn't be able to completely relax about the religiosity of your family being safe guarded. I have seen this neglectful attitude towards the religious up bringing of children transfering over to the uk, many Iraqi parents don't take an active role and assume that their children will absorb religious knowlege and practices by osmosis. This wont even always work in Iraq, let alone in the west(eg UK) and you see many young Iraqis lacking in knowlege and practice of Islam, and not associating Islam with anything but family tradition. Many immigrant parents come over to places like the uk with a niavety about how hard it is to bring up muslim children in the west, and then they kick themselves when things back fire on them or they just give up and watch their children go off the rails and blend in with the surrounding society's norms and values. I am not saying this is the case with everyone, but it does seem to be an issue to consider, and to remember that if you ever do plan to live in Iraq, the children there are not necessarily a better influence on any children you have, or plan to have in the future. I mention all this because one of the main reasons people give for moving to Iraq or any other 'muslim' country say that a major reason would be to have a more 'Islamic' environment for their children, and although this is true to a large extent, it shouldn't be assumed to be a perfect place that will solve everyones parenting woes.

As for safety and political stability, that is improving but has worsened recently due to the conflict in syria, and if the west intervenes in Syria then it will only get worse for Iraq. Also, if Iran wa attacked and brought into war, then that would de-stablise any improvements gained thus far. I hope for peace in the region, not just for Iraq's sake, but for everyone in the whole region and I really hope that Syria gets peace soon inshallah, they can probably learn much from the Iraq experience. I think there is alot of corruption and weird cultural issues(bribery for basic rights such as policing and check point controls, and iou's for doctors fees etc, and cash in hand on top of paying the basic price for services eg paying an estate agent when buying land or a house :dry: )

Inshallah Iraq will become stable, but there is a certain agenda at play here and I don't think true stability will come until the re-appearence of the Imam(ajtf), may he return soon and bring justice and peace inshallah!

salams and duas inshallah! :D

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Guys i dont mean to be rude, or rain in your your parade here, but Iraq is not going to be stable for a long long long time.

As long as it still has oil, and KSA is still around and all those american bases too, then im sorry but its going to stay the same if not worse. You cant have a country in the middle east that is strong and powerful, and habitable, other wise you will have invasions forced upon you (Iran) and will have to deal with sanctions EOD of the week.

Sorry guys dont get your hopes up...

If we were going to live forever iw ould get my hopes up but we wont lol,

Id much rather look forward to the after life. Either live there now and have some sort of income coming in from the west, or just visit there. Its not going nor will it EVER become like dubai or qatar or other countries. So just take it how it is lol if you can handle it move there, if not, then dont. Inshallah i want to visit there in the next 2 years

salams

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Do you think they care, or for that matter, can distinguish between you and those who do? To them, you all are sand n******.

Thats rubbish. Just because racist ppl reside in a country (as they do most countries) it doesnt mean the mass population agree's with them. I believe ppl in the UK to be very tolerant on the whole. You get pockets where communities have isolated themselves and there are plenty of willfully ignorant people, but the majority get along fine in reality, theyre at least tolerant and at best people actively celibrate the diversity and its used as something to brag about.

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Iraq will never become like Dubai as long as the people stay like this. Everyone is selfish and government puts all the money that is supposed to be used on iraq into their pocket. Iraq needs imam mahdi to come out first and then maybe it's possible.

When your host countries kick you all out, you'll have no choice but to come back.

LOL. What if you are born in the a foreign country huh.

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I think we Iraqi's in general need a massive overhaul, Iraq has become like the "wild" for the human spirit where many have abandoned Islam and high values except by name. There is much hypocrisy and injustice between the ordinary people, family feuds over things like wealth and inheritance, doshonest transactions and sheer fitna over wordly things. It's a scary situation sometimes.Much of this tragedy can be attributed to the hardships people have faced for a very long time, which I also believe has starved the Iraqi people of spiritual and cultural nourishment especially with the death (until recently) of the Najaf Hawza, I feel like Iraqi's are a nation of Orphans in the sense that our lack of a stable state and modern progressive civilisation is akin to a child's lack of parents and the consequences on upbringing thereof. The modern Iraqi spirit needs refinement. I should add that we Iraqi's living abroad are not necessarily better; sometimes equal if not worse. Many superficially espouse Islamic principles and virtues yet their actions betray them. We compete with eachother for worldy status and possessions and rarely offer a helping hand to those less fortunate. Even the Jews, who many of us mock, are superior to us in their community spirit. Look at them now, their quantity is little yet they achieve so much success because of the quality of their attitude to one another.

I don't intend to sound holier than though, since I'm not perfect myself even if I try to make a conscious effort to fix my own deficiencies.

What do you think happened? Just corrupt government? Shouldn't all of Iraq be prospering... all of its people be doing well... under the wealth that oil generates? It is sad to me to when I read and see what Iraq once was. It was educated people at one time was it not? Beautiful, kind people, not backwards people. What happened to Iraq do you think? Oil wealth produced corruption? Money grab? It seems that while oil should have been a blessing to the mid-east it has been a curse instead.

Or is it that it does not know how to separate the religion from the government? Is it the religion that causes problems for the country? People that want government to control every aspect of other people's lives, instead of allowing people to make those choices for themselves? Wanting to over-extend the government into areas where it does not belong... i.e., the spiritual, and not putting focus where government focus needs to be?

Caringheart

Edited by CLynn

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What do you think happened? Just corrupt government? Shouldn't all of Iraq be prospering... all of its people be doing well... under the wealth that oil generates? It is sad to me to when I read and see what Iraq once was. It was educated people at one time was it not? Beautiful, kind people, not backwards people. What happened to Iraq do you think? Oil wealth produced corruption? Money grab? It seems that while oil should have been a blessing to the mid-east it has been a curse instead.

Or is it that it does not know how to separate the religion from the government? Is it the religion that causes problems for the country? People that want government to control every aspect of other people's lives, instead of allowing people to make those choices for themselves? Wanting to over-extend the government into areas where it does not belong... i.e., the spiritual, and not putting focus where government focus needs to be?

Caringheart

You have no idea what you are talking about. Iraq is an unstable democracy currently under the rule of Al Maliki who hasn't even implemented Islamic law (in other words pretty secular). It was your redneck buddies back in the states that aided a secular nationalist dictator (Saddam) to decimate iran and lay a huge debt on the country as a result of the brutal war that ended in stalemate. Note the repetition of the term 'secular'. It was because of America's invasion Al-Qaeda found it a golden opportunity to exploit the chaos and send all their suicide bombers to bring the shia population down on its knees. It was the combination of both America's and Al-Qaeda's military intervention half of Iraq's infrastructure has been reduced to rubble.

Do not speak on behalf of a country when you haven't the faintest clue what the root causes to its current crisis is.

Edited by Lanatin

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Do not speak on behalf of a country when you haven't the faintest clue what the root causes to its current crisis is.

If you tell me not to ask, how then am I to learn?

Do you think things were right when Saddam was ruling?

What do you think happened to the country? This is what I am asking.

When and where did the problems begin?

What began the problem between Iraq and Iran that Saddam sought aid?

[Edit: I was actually addressing Transient, but I would welcome any calm input that you have as well. :)]

Edited by CLynn

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