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In the Name of God بسم الله

Islam: Shia Twelver & Bohra Understanding Of Imams


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You'd better hope we have authentic hadiths, considering what the relatively smaller quantity you have (e.g. in Da`a'im) were largely taken from our books (and Zaydis).

Exactly our point. You do realize the same 'argument' can be used against you? And Islam is supposed to be a religion that answers questions and dispels doubts, actively sharing knowledge and put fort

Who told me this? How about the famous modern-day Tayyibi scholar, Ismail K. Poonawala who, having surveyed the ahadeeth in Da'aim al-Islam, found that about 70% of them were either word-for-word, or

Mansur from the other thread said he is a 'Shia Daudi Bohra' and said the following, this might help understand the group's beliefs:

If you beleive Ali is the first successor for Prophet Muhammed then you are a Shia and if you are really doing so then for sure who will go to heaven. If you don't beleive that and beleive in those 3 kafirs (Allah's curse on them) then you will go to hell. You also have to beleive that Imamat continues today and the current Imam in occlution is the great grand son of Imam Tayeb, the 21st Imam who went into occlution who is from the lineage of Ali and prophet.

and

Ithna's are so ignorant that they even don't know who is the current Imam. They keep on saying that Imam Mahdi is the current Imam.

The fact is that the current Imam in occlution is the great grand son of Imam Abdullah Al Mahdi who is from the lineage of Prophet Muhammed. The 21st Imam, Imam Tayeb went into occlution.

Ithna's keep on referring to hadiths, not sure on basis they say that those hadiths are correct. Also, I would like to ask them, which verse the glorious Quran says that the current Imam in occlution is Imam Mahdi.

and

The 11th Imam was Imam Abdullah Al Mahdi whose zuhur was from magrib. i.e. East Africa. There after the lineage of Imam's continued. The 21st Imam Imam Tayeb then went into occlution and till today all the imams who came after Imam Tayeb remained in occlution. The current Imam Imam Zaman is still in occlution and we don't know who he is. He is from the lineage of Imam Tayeb and Prophet Muhammed.

Mansur, what do you make of all the narrations from the Prophet that talk of 12 Imams after him?

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Mansur from the other thread said he is a 'Shia Daudi Bohra' and said the following, this might help understand the group's beliefs:

and

and

Mansur, what do you make of all the narrations from the Prophet that talk of 12 Imams after him?

So, can you tell me how authenticate are your hadiths and who has confirmed them?

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It is impossible to debate BOHRA on internet, as we dont share any religious material on internet.

BOHRAS are originally called as tayyebi ismaili shia.

Is it a belief of all Bohras that Sunni Muslims are kuffar? Or is that just your belief?

What is the opinion of Bohras on Nizari Ismailis? Do you consider them Muslims?

Is it only your Da'i that is allowed to make takfir of others? Or can any Bohra make takfir of others?

For example, what if your Dai' said that Sunnis are indeed Muslims. What would you then say? Would you accept his words? Or would you ignore him and continue to make takfir?

Thanks.

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Is it a belief of all Bohras that Sunni Muslims are kuffar? Or is that just your belief?

What is the opinion of Bohras on Nizari Ismailis? Do you consider them Muslims?

Is it only your Da'i that is allowed to make takfir of others? Or can any Bohra make takfir of others?

For example, what if your Dai' said that Sunnis are indeed Muslims. What would you then say? Would you accept his words? Or would you ignore him and continue to make takfir?

Thanks.

we dont have rights and permission to disclose any thing about DAI's position to out side world,

but any ways this is my personal view that any one who is considering Imam Ali as fourth and not the first successor of Muhammed(s) is a munafiq and worst stage of kafir.

shukran.

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we dont have rights and permission to disclose any thing about DAI's position to out side world,

but any ways this is my personal view that any one who is considering Imam Ali as fourth and not the first successor of Muhammed(s) is a munafiq and worst stage of kafir.

shukran.

So majority of the Muslim world are Munafiqs and Kaffirs? Yeah... Thanks for the Fatwa.

What is a Dai?

Can anyone join your religion or do you have to be born into it?

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So majority of the Muslim world are Munafiqs and Kaffirs? Yeah... Thanks for the Fatwa.

What is a Dai?

Can anyone join your religion or do you have to be born into it?

no doubt in that, no wonder Muhammed(s) already said from 73 sects in ISLAM only one will qualify to reaach heaven. rest are bond to burn in hell fire inshallah Ameen.

So majority of the Muslim world are Munafiqs and Kaffirs? Yeah... Thanks for the Fatwa.

What is a Dai?

Can anyone join your religion or do you have to be born into it?

DAI is messenger of Imam(s).

and yes any one can join tayyebi ismaili shias.

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I dont claim any thing, for me a good character and true worship of Allah is enough to get any type of heaven.

yes we believe in Imam mehdi but our concept is different then ithna asharis.

Edited by yamolaAlimadad
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we dont have rights and permission to disclose any thing about DAI's position to out side world,

So, you can talk about an Imam's position on something, but, not a Da'is position on something?

How will Bohra Ismailism ever grow if you cannot talk about your Dai's positions with anyone?

Does Allah not teach Muslims to give daw'ah - yet, it seems your Da'i is preventing the giving of daw'ah by not allowing anyone to talk about his positions on things?

but any ways this is my personal view that any one who is considering Imam Ali as fourth and not the first successor of Muhammed(s) is a munafiq and worst stage of kafir.

That's pretty funny considering that Imam Ali (as) and his immediate heirs (at least) never had such a viewpoint, even.

So, what's your opinion or your Da'is opinion of Nizari Ismailis? You never answered that and simply ignored it when I asked earlier.

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So, you can talk about an Imam's position on something, but, not a Da'is position on something?

How will Bohra Ismailism ever grow if you cannot talk about your Dai's positions with anyone?

Does Allah not teach Muslims to give daw'ah - yet, it seems your Da'i is preventing the giving of daw'ah by not allowing anyone to talk about his positions on things?

no we dont require to do any dawah like wahabis, our comunity is well disciplined and far more advanced then any sect of ISLAM, and our DAI is ultimate decision taker and holds complete authority.

That's pretty funny considering that Imam Ali (as) and his immediate heirs (at least) never had such a viewpoint, even.

So, what's your opinion or your Da'is opinion of Nizari Ismailis? You never answered that and simply ignored it when I asked earlier.

as I said this is my personal opinion that any one declining successorship of Imam Ali ibn talib is munafiq and worst stage of kafir.

shukran.

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no we dont require to do any dawah like wahabis, our comunity is well disciplined and far more advanced then any sect of ISLAM, and our DAI is ultimate decision taker and holds complete authority.

Two questions... does this 'complete' authority include creating new Islamic laws (like introducing new 'wajib' or 'fard' tasks) and annulling old ones (like prayers, hijab, fasting, etc)?

And in your belief is 'Dai' a descendent of the the 12th Imam, Muhammad Mehdi? (if you can provide the names in the line of Imams you believe in that would be helpful)

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Two questions... does this 'complete' authority include creating new Islamic laws (like introducing new 'wajib' or 'fard' tasks) and annulling old ones (like prayers, hijab, fasting, etc)?

And in your belief is 'Dai' a descendent of the the 12th Imam, Muhammad Mehdi? (if you can provide the names in the line of Imams you believe in that would be helpful)

Bro, I deleted my post earlier because I learnt that we are technically not permitted to mention the name of our 12th Imam (as) instead we are told to say: "The Proof from the Family of Muhammad’ (al-Hujjah min Aali Muhammad)”

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Two questions... does this 'complete' authority include creating new Islamic laws (like introducing new 'wajib' or 'fard' tasks) and annulling old ones (like prayers, hijab, fasting, etc)?

And in your belief is 'Dai' a descendent of the the 12th Imam, Muhammad Mehdi? (if you can provide the names in the line of Imams you believe in that would be helpful)

DAI has full authority and his words are final, yet in last 900 years we have not seen any new thing introduced specially like FARD.infact tayyeebi ismaili shias stick to islamic values like no others.

our 7 pillars of islaam are

walayat

taharat

namaz

zakat

fasting

haj

jihad.

no DAI is not a decent of IMAM he is just a messenger and a authorized person from IMAM(s).

Edited by yamolaAlimadad
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DAI has full authority and his words are final, yet in last 900 years we have not seen any new thing introduced specially like FARD.infact tayyeebi ismaili shias stick to islamic values like no others.

our 7 pillars of islaam are

walayat

taharat

namaz

zakat

fasting

haj

jihad.

no DAI is not a decent of IMAM he is just a messenger and a authorized person from IMAM(s).

Have you ever met your 'Da'i?

Why do you believe you are on Haqq?

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Brother yaali,

You've been on this forum for quite sometime and you been pretty much interactive in the threads and probably now have a fair idea of how a 'shia brain' works, the emphasis it lays on strong proofs and supported by logic. Do you in all honesty, still believe that the madhhab you belong to, is the correct one? Whenever we speak to a Bohri, they bottle up with a patent line: We aren't allowed to discuss!

Isn't this a big flaw? How will you know you're on the correct path or not, if you won't discuss? Sunnis are in a far better position than Bohris IMHO, at least they tend to strive to discuss and reach a conclusion. Isn't it then unfair to call them kafir (worst, in YOUR logic which isn't valued much unless backed by strong proofs which you don't want to discuss)?

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Brother yaali,

You've been on this forum for quite sometime and you been pretty much interactive in the threads and probably now have a fair idea of how a 'shia brain' works, the emphasis it lays on strong proofs and supported by logic. Do you in all honesty, still believe that the madhhab you belong to, is the correct one? Whenever we speak to a Bohri, they bottle up with a patent line: We aren't allowed to discuss!

Isn't this a big flaw? How will you know you're on the correct path or not, if you won't discuss? Sunnis are in a far better position than Bohris IMHO, at least they tend to strive to discuss and reach a conclusion. Isn't it then unfair to call them kafir (worst, in YOUR logic which isn't valued much unless backed by strong proofs which you don't want to discuss)?

yes I have been on this forum from long time now, and i very wel understand shia mentality, and this is why I have decided to stick to my faith and not get indulge in ithna ashari belief.

may be shia books are avaliable on internet freely and there is no one to guide or regulate them, but in my opinion bohras have truth and much well organized understanding of ISLAM.

there was a point of time when i thought i shud join ithna asharis for being moderate and free to distribute knowledge, but not any more

i think what bohras are doing by keeping things in veil is far better then what is been feeded to average shia.

there are many many reasons for DAI to adopt this tactics, but I wont disclose it here, DAI has managed and given a wonderful ISLAMIC life to an average bohra which is not possible for any sect to achieve it.

there are people in bohras as well who critisize DAI but this is nothing new, even Muhammed(s) was rejected inspite of having truth with him.

Have you ever met your 'Da'i?

Why do you believe you are on Haqq?

yes I have met him.

this are few pics of present and future DAI of tayyebi ismaili shias.

https://www.google.co.in/search?num=10&hl=en&authuser=0&site=imghp&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ZOMsUPj_GYWJrAfq5IGoCA&ved=0CEUQBSgA&q=mufaddal+maula+and+mola+muhammad&spell=1&biw=1366&bih=582

Edited by yamolaAlimadad
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yes I have been on this forum from long time now, and i very wel understand shia mentality, and this is why I have decided to stick to my faith and not get indulge in ithna ashari belief.

So what did you find of a Shia which didn't quite strike a chord?

there was a point of time when i thought i shud join ithna asharis for being moderate and free to distribute knowledge, but not any more

What held you back bro?

there are people in bohras as well who critisize DAI but this is nothing new, even Muhammed(s) was rejected inspite of having truth with him.

Mohammed (s) came with a message which he put his blood and sweat to propagate. He had visitors from different religion asking him question, and he in turn would respond to them with proofs. Isn't this is clear contradiction with the teachings of the dai?

I simply fail to understand the benefit of knowledge locked up? Why such an insecurity?

Edited by Inquisitor
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bohras keep knowledge in secret not because of insecurity that we are wrong, but infact to keep security of your community members.

few hundered years back we have lose our DAI (Qutbuddin shaheed) and thousands of momeen at the hand of moghal emperor auranzeb, just because our knowledge and our belief was open and this made sunni and wahabi king angry ( it is obvious).

today thousands of shias are killed world wide just because of this.

our DAIS main responsibility is to protect momeenin and keep them safe from any harm from any one.

and it is not like that we dont have access to knowledge at all. we can learn as much as we want, but by proper channel, by the authorized person of DAI, who might become our teacher (ustaad) and teach us.

we dont believe in keeping our sensitive information and valuable understanding of ISLAM on internet.

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That is interesting. What was it like meeting this man? Anything special about him?

I've already found the first contradiction. You claim this individual is acting as a messenger for al-Hujjah min Aali Muhammad (as) yet he allows his followers to kiss his hands? We have authentic Hadiths which state this isn't allowed:

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2011/05/kissing-hand-of-scholars.html

If he goes against the Ahlul Bayt (as) then he certainly isn't from or acting as a messenger for the Ahlul Bayt (as)

Tell me, what benefit does this individual give to his followers?

Edited by Ali Musaaa :)
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That is interesting. What was it like meeting this man? Anything special about him?

I've already found the first contradiction. You claim this individual is acting as a messenger for al-Hujjah min Aali Muhammad (as) yet he allows his followers to kiss his hands? We have authentic Hadiths which state this isn't allowed:

http://www.revivinga...f-scholars.html

If he goes against the Ahlul Bayt (as) then he certainly isn't from or acting as a messenger for the Ahlul Bayt (as)

Tell me, what benefit does this individual give to his followers?

I am sorry but none of your or sunni hadith or jurisdiction is applicable to us....and we dont even need to care. sunni and ithna ashari books are full with bias and non authenticate hadiths and self made incidents.this is all coz of lack of proper leadership and guidance.

we have perfect system in place and its working perfectly fine.....

I wont be able to participate in this discussion further, as it is not my business to tell you what and who we are, if any body is interested to know they shud go and inquire from bohra administration.

shukran.

Edited by yamolaAlimadad
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this is all coz of lack of proper leadership and guidance.

we have perfect system in place and its working perfectly fine.....

I wont be able to participate in this discussion further, as it is not my business to tell you what and who we are, if any body is interested to know they shud go and inquire from bohra administration.

shukran.

I can only imagine what the Prophet's (pbuh) reaction would be if he heard a Muslim talk like you.

You sound ridiculous. Islam is not a closed religion. It is not for chosen ones, and it is meant to be spread and delivered to all - especially those showing interest in it.

Here is a quick grading of your so-called "Da'i," for instance:

Anyone who has the truth does not hesitate to actively call all others to it. (fail)

Anyone who is divinely guided goes ahead and proves it to others just like the Prophet (as). (fail)

Anyone who claims to be divinely guided and does neither of these is clearly a Dajjal. (checkmark)

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BASIC BELIEF OF TAYYEBI ISMAILI SHIAS ARE....

OFFICE OF IMAM CANT REMAIN EMPTY, IF HE IS NOT PRESENT FOR A WHILE SOME BODY WITH HIS PERMISSION MUST BE PHYSICALLY PRESENT IN WORLD TO GUIDE IMAMS FOLLOWERS.

SHUKRAN,

Of this is your 'basic' belief then please prove this through the Qur'an.

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That is interesting. What was it like meeting this man? Anything special about him?

I've already found the first contradiction. You claim this individual is acting as a messenger for al-Hujjah min Aali Muhammad (as) yet he allows his followers to kiss his hands? We have authentic Hadiths which state this isn't allowed:

http://www.revivinga...f-scholars.html

If he goes against the Ahlul Bayt (as) then he certainly isn't from or acting as a messenger for the Ahlul Bayt (as)

Tell me, what benefit does this individual give to his followers?

Authentica Hadiths? Who has authenticated them? Your goverment? How in the world can you prove that your hadiths are correct and not corrupted? Can you please answer?

Of this is your 'basic' belief then please prove this through the Qur'an.

First prove that your Hadiths are authenticated and correct. You guys keep on referring to those corrupted hadiths of yours who were written by someone somewhere and keep on fighthing amongst yourself.

So, I have been asking this question for quite some time now and I ask it again. What is the proof that your hadiths are correct and not corrupted?

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You'd better hope we have authentic hadiths, considering what the relatively smaller quantity you have (e.g. in Da`a'im) were largely taken from our books (and Zaydis).

This does not answer my question. I repeat, what is the proof that your hadiths are correct? Who authored them and how authenticate is your author?

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This does not answer my question. I repeat, what is the proof that your hadiths are correct? Who authored them and how authenticate is your author?

If he is saying most of your hadiths are taken from us and Zaydis, & you question now the authenticity of our hadith, you automatically point the gun at yourself & indirectly question your owns to.

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If he is saying most of your hadiths are taken from us and Zaydis, & you question now the authenticity of our hadith, you automatically point the gun at yourself & indirectly question your owns to.

Brother, none from you Ithnas's are able to answer my question regariding authencity of your Hadiths. What he said was just for the sake of argument. Even he does not have any answers.

The fact is the most of your hadiths were written in 8th or 9th century by some one and they kept on getting altered. So what before 8th century? What did you follow? You guys have no clue at all.

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Brother, none from you Ithnas's are able to answer my question regariding authencity of your Hadiths. What he said was just for the sake of argument. Even he does not have any answers.

The fact is the most of your hadiths were written in 8th or 9th century by some one and they kept on getting altered. So what before 8th century? What did you follow? You guys have no clue at all.

Not so,

Edited by MAFHHM
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