Why Do Sunnis Ignore These Points?

AliHussainFaraji · August 15, 2012

1) There is not Sunni in the world who has been able to refute this:

Sahih al-Bukhari is the most authentic collection of hadiths in the Sunnah

Sahih Bukhari:

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad say "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

Book 89:329

Sahih Muslim is the second most authentic collection of hadiths in the Sunnah

Sahih Muslim:

Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad say "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh."

Book 20:4477-4483

And there are more than 20 similar narrations

Sunan al-Tirmidhi:

The Prophet said: "There will be after me twelve rulers, all of them from Quraysh."

Hadith 2149 (numbering of al-Alamiyyah)

Sunan Abu Dawood:

The Prophet said: "This religion remains standing until there are twelve vicegerents over you, all of them agreeable to the nation, all of them from Quraysh."

Book 36:4266

A Jewish man named Na'thal, went to the Prophet and among the questions he asked who would succeed him. The Prophet said, specifying them, "After me, 'Ali ibn Abi Talib and then my two sons, Hasan and Husayn and after Husayn, nine Imams will follow from his children." "The Jewish man said, 'Name them.' "The Prophet said, "When Husayn leaves this world, his son, 'Ali, and after him, his child Muhammad and after Muhammad, his son Ja'far and after Ja'far, his son Musa and after Musa, his son 'Ali and after 'Ali, Muhammad. After Muhammad, his child, 'Ali and after 'Ali, Hasan and after Hasan, his child Muhammad al-Mahdi. These are the twelve Imams."

Yanabi' al-Muwadat, p. 431

"This religion shall always be upright till there are twelve from Quraish. When they are no more, the earth will be destroyed (swallowed) with all its inhabitants"

Kanz al-Ummaal, vol 12, pg 34, Tr. No. 3386

- Kash al-Astaar, part 1, pg 99 narrating from al-Ebaanah

- E'laam al-Waraa pg 384

- Muqtazab al-Asar, pg 3-4

- Manaaqeb of ibn Shar Aashob, vol 1, pg 290

- Behaar al-Anwaar vol 36, pg 267, Chap 41, Tr. No. 87

- Al-Insaaf, pg 361

"Surely this religion will always overcome its opponents and no enemy or deserter can ever harm it till there are twelve caliphs from my nation in it. All of them will be from Quraish"

Musnad-e-Ahmad, vol 5, pg 87

Nowehere in Sunnism are there 12 Muslim rulers, all of them from Quraysh.

The 'Four Rightly Guided' Rashidun Caliphs were four, there were more than 30 Ummayad Caliphs, Nearly 40 Abbasid Caliphs, and many Sunni Caliphs are not even from Quraysh!

Desperate / straw man Sunni responses:

1) "It doesn't say Ahlul Bayt! That means it's not talking about the 12 Imams!"

Firstly, that makes no sense whatsoever. Maybe if it specifically said 'not Ahlul Bayt' what you're saying would actually make sense. Secondly, the 12 Shia Imams are the only 12 Muslim leaders who are all from Quraysh in all of Islam.

http://en.wikipedia....List_of_Caliphs

2) "There are only 11 Imams! The 12th Imam does not exist! You have no proof he exists!"

Firstly, it's important to note that this proof still completely contradicts Sunni'ism, but they completely disregard that fact and think that if they say Shias only believe in 11 Imams that, that somehow makes it any less contradictory to Sunni'ism. Secondly, this argument is made from an Atheist standpoint. Whether he exists or not, Twelver Shia believe in him and their belief of Islam is the only one in accordance with the Quran and Sunnah, so if you want to say you don't believe in the 12th Imam, you might as well be saying you are converting to Atheism. Thirdly, apart from the fact that he was witnessed by countless people at his father's funeral where he even led the prayer, there are dozens of hadiths confirming his existence, many of which are from Sunni sources:

(1) Muhammad b. Talha Shafi'i writes: "Abu al-Qasim Muhammad b. Hasan was born in the year 258 AH/873 CE in Samarra. His father's name was Hasan Khalis. Among the titles [of this last Imam] are: Hujjat, Khalaf Salih (the righteous offspring) and Muntazar (the awaited one)." Following this statement he has related several traditions on the subject of the Mahdi, with the concluding statement: "These hadith-reports confirm the existence of Imam Hasan 'Askari's son, who is in concealment and will appear later."
Matalib al-su'al (1287 AH edition), p. 89.
(2) Muhammad b. Yusuf, following his entry on the death of Imam Hasan 'Askari, writes: "He did not have any child beside Muhammad. It is said that he is the same as the Awaited Imam (imam muntazar).
Kifayat al-talib, p. 312.
(3) Ibn Sabbagh Maliki writes: "Section Twelve on the Life of Abu al-Qasim Muhammad, Hujjat, Khalaf Salih, the son of Abu Muhammad Hasan Khalis: He is the twelfth Imam of the Shi'a." Then he has recorded the history of the Imam and has related the traditions about the Mahdi.
Fusul al-muhimma (Second edition), p. 273 and 286.
(4) Yusuf b. Qazughli, after writing his account of the life of Imam Hasan 'Askari, writes: "His son's name is Muhammad, and his patronymic is Abu 'Abd Allah and Abu al-Qasim. He is the Proof of God's existence, the Master of the Age, the Qa'im, and the Muntazar. The Imamate has come to an end with him." Then he reports traditions about the Mahdi.
Tadhkirat khawass al-umma, p. 363.
(5) Shablanji in the book entitled Nur al-absar, writes: "Muhammad is the son of Hasan 'Askari. His mother was a slave girl by the name of Narjis or Sayqal or Sawsan. His patronymic is Abu al-Qasim. The Twelver Shi'ites know him as: Hujjat, Mahdi, Khalaf Salih, Qa'im, Muntazar, and Master of the Age."
Nur al-absar (Cairo edition), p. 342.
(6) Ibn Hajar, in his al-Sawa'iq al-muharriqa, following the biography of Imam Hasan 'Askari writes: "He has not left a son besides Abu al-Qasim, who is known as Muhammad and Hujjat. That boy was five years old when his father died."
al-Sawa'iq al-muharriqa, p. 206.
(7) Muhammad b. 'Ali Hamawi writes: "Abu al-Qasim Muhammad Muntazar was born in the year 259 AH/874 CE in Samarra."
Ta'rikh mansuri
(8) Ibn Khallikan relates in his biographical dictionary Wafayat al-a'yan: "Abu al-Qasim Muhammad b. al-Hasan al-'Askari is the twelfth Imam of the Imamiyya, that is the Twelver Shi'ites. The Shi'ites believe that he is the one who is the awaited Qa'im and the Mahdi."
Wafayat al-a'yan (1284 AH edition), Vol. 2, p. 24.
(9) In Rawdat al-safa Mir Khwand writes: "Muhammad was the son of Hasan. His patronymic is Abu al-Qasim. The Imamiyya acknowledge that he is the Hujjat, the Qa'im, and the Mahdi."
(10) Sha'rani writes in his al-Yawaqit wa al-jawahir: "Mahdi is the son of Imam Hasan 'Askari. He was born on the fifteenth night of Sha'ban, 255 AH. He is alive and will remain so until he will emerge with Jesus. Now it is 957 AH. He is, thus, 703 years old."
al-Yawaqit wa al-jawahir (1351 AH edition), Vol. 2, p. 143.
(11) Sha'rani, quoting Ibn 'Arabi's Futuhat makiyya, section 366, writes: "When the earth will be filled with tyranny and injustice the Mahdi will rise and will fill the earth with justice and equity. He will be among the descendants of the Prophet and from the line of Fatima. His grandfather will be Husayn, and his father will be Hasan 'Askari, the son of 'Ali Naqi, the son of Muhammad Taqi, the son of 'Ali Rida, the son of Musa Kazim, the son of Ja'far Sadiq, the son of Muhammad Baqir, the son of Zayn al-'Abidin, the son of Husayn b. 'Ali b. Abi Talib."
Ibid., p. 143.
12) Khwaja Parsa in his book Fasl al-khitab writes: "Muhammad, the son of Hasan 'Askari, was born on fifteenth night of Sha'ban, 255 AH/870 CE. His mother's name was Narjis. His father died when he was five years of age. From that time until now he is in occultation. He is the awaited Imam of the Shi'a. His existence is well established among his companions, trusted associates and family. God will prolong his age as He has done in the case of Elijah and Eliash."
Yanabi' al-mawadda, Vo. 2, p. 126.
(13) Abu al-Falah Hanbali in his Shadharat al-dhahab and Dhahabi in al-'Ibar fi khabar min ghabar write: "Muhammad is the son of Hasan 'Askari, the son of 'Ali Hadi, the son of Jawad, the son of 'Ali Rida, the son of Musa Kazim, the son of Ja'far Sadiq, 'Alawi, Husayni. His patronymic is Abu al-Qasim and the Shi'a know him as Khalaf Salih, Hujjat, Mahdi, Muntazar, and the Master of the Age (Sahib al-zaman)."
Shadharat al-dhahab (Beirut edition), Vol. 2, p. 141
as well as in al-'Ibar fi khabar min ghabar (Kuwait edition), Vol. 2, p. 31
(14) Muhammad Amin Baghdadi in the book entitled: Saba'ik al-dhahab writes: "Muhammad, who is also known as Mahdi, was five years old at the time of his father's death."
Saba'ik al-dhahab, p. 78.

Surah Al-An'am, Ayah 55:

"Thus do We elaborate the signs, so that the way of the guilty may be exposed."

2) It has been 100% authenticated in the Sunnah that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said that he will leave the world with the Quran and Ahlul Bayt, and that the 'Quran and Sunnah' narration has been proven to be unauthentic.

SAHIH MUSLIM
Book 031, Number 5920:
...O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household.
http://www.cmje.org/...lim/031-smt.php
NOTE:
"my sunna" hadith IS NOT WEAK. For it to be WEAK (dhaeef) it needs to have people in the chain of narration who 'forget easily' or 'have a bad memory.' A weak hadith - there is still chance that it is true. But the "my sunna" hadith has FABRICATORS in the chain! People who would openly make lies about the Sahaba and the ProphetÕáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå. So it is not only WEAK, but its is WORSE ---> FABRICATED (mawdhoo').
Ayatullah Sayyid Kamaal al-Haidary has more than 10 episodes going through all 4 chains of "my sunna" and proves its NOT ONLY WEAK, but rather FABRICATED. If anyone dares to object, I will translate it inshaAllah.

So why do they continue to attribute lies to the Prophet (pbuh) and reiterate 'my Sunnah', especially when the Sunnah itself confirms the 12 Imams?

In addition to this:

The Most Noble Messenger (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå‎) appointed 'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) to guard the city on his behalf, and he ordered that he should remain in Madinah until he returned, administering the affairs of the Muslims. When the Hypocrites realized that their treacherous plans had been divulged, they began spreading idle rumors in the hope of weakening 'Ali's position. They hinted that the Prophet (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå‎) was angry with 'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) and that it was for this reason that he had not been permitted to accompany him on a major military expedition.
'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) was greatly troubled and saddened by the circulation of these rumors, and he hastened to the presence of the Prophet (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå‎) who had already left Madinah. He told him what had happened, and with a single historic sentence he clarified the special position of 'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) once and for all:
"Are you not content that your relation to me shall be like the relation of Harun to Musa, excepting only that there shall be no prophet after me?"
At the end of this hadith there is a sentence that many Sunni scholars have recorded in their books:
"It is not fitting that I should depart without your being my deputy and successor."
al-Hakim, al-Mustadrak, Vol. III, p. 63
al-Nasa'i, al-Khasa'is, p. 63
al-Hamawini, Fara'id al-simtayn, Vol. I, p. 328
al-Dhahabi, Talkhis al-Mustadrak, Vol. III, p. 132
Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, Vol. I, p. 331
al-Khwarazmi, al-Manaqib, p. 72
al-Ganji, Kifayat al-Talib, p. 116
Ibn Asakir, al-Tarikh al-Kabir, Vol. I, p. 203
al-Biladhuri, Ansab al-Ashraf, Vol. II, p. 106
Ibn Kathir, al-Bidayah, Vol. VII, p. 338
al-'Asqalani, al-Isabah, Vol. II, p.509.

For those of who who are unaware, the Prophet Harun (as) was the brother and successor of the Prophet Musa (as). Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) in successorship had every right over the Ummah the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had except prophethood (i.e. to communicate the direct words of Allah in first-person), the same way the Prophet Harun (as) had authority after the prophethood of Musa (as).

3) Proofs from the Quran:

The Quran says in Surah Al-Ahzaab, Ayah 33:

"...Verily, Allah has decreed to purify you, O' Ahlul Bayt, and sanctify you in a perfect way"

Sunni rebuttal: "No! It's taken out of context, it's only talking about the wives of the Prophet (pbuh)!"

Firstly, it is important to note that nowhere in this Ayah are the wives of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned.

Surah Al-Ahzaab, Full Ayah 33:

"Stay in your houses and do not display your finery with the display of the former [days of ] ignorance. Maintain the prayer and pay the zakat and obey Allah and His Apostle. Verily, Allah has decreed to purify you, O' Ahlul Bayt, and sanctify you in a perfect way."

Each Ayah is an individual sign of Allah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayah

Ayah or Aayah is the Arabic word for evidence or sign:
"These are the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) of Allah, which We recite to you (O Muhammad) with truth. Then in which speech after Allah and His Ayat will they believe?" (Surat Al-Jathiya 45:6, Mohsin Khan translation of the Qur'an)

Secondly,

The verse of Purification, or Surah Ahzab 33:33. Now in your words it refers to the women of the household of the Prophet (pbuh), the first sentence does, but then the second sentence, which Goku was referring to: Oh household of the Prophet, God only wishes to remove impurities from you in a thorough purification." This sentence refers to the Ahlul Bayt, or 4 specific people. Who go as follows:
1. Imam Ali (A.S.)
2. Sayyida Fatima (S.A.)
3. Imam Hasan (A.S.)
4. Imam Hussain (A.S.)
Now before going further, we look at the 3 meanings of the word Ahl (Family):
The extended Family
The Wives
The close family
The word Ahl is being referred to is the close family. The reason it's not the close family, let's look grammatically why it's not the wives. Now it's a known fact the Qur'an is not in the order it was revealed in, some verses are here, and others are there, so it's not out of the ordinary that the verse referring to the family, and one referring to the wives will be side by side. But a clear indication the verse is not talking about the wives is the words Ankum (from you) and Yutahhirakum (To cleanse you). They are both in the masculine plural form. Though it is known that in Arabic Masculine is unisex, there is a problem saying that since the fact that the previous sentence in reference to the wives used only feminine verbs and pronouns, while this sentences uses masculine. The feminine for the above would be Ankunna and Yutahhirakunna. The sudden change in grammatical gender reference is one indication it is not the wives.
Now let's see another indication this verse about removing impurities was not towards the wives. The word for impurity here is Rijs, which is referred to in the Qur'an as sinfulness of either false beliefs, or sinful acts (Refer to Qur'an: 5:90, 10:100, 22:30, 9:95, 9:125). So if said purification happened, then the wives wouldn't commit such Rijs after this purification. However we see that there are verses in the Qur'an which say that they did do misconduct (33:30). And there are such where they hurt the Prophet and Allah says he can give better wives than them (66:1-5).
Beyond the evidence from the Qur'an, let's look at the Sahih Hadith of the Shiites and the Sunnis. They have been deemed Sahih and accepted by both Sunni and Shiite books. So I will give you them, with Sunni references also:
Hussain Ibn Sabrah asked Zaid Ibn Arqam, "Who are the members of His household? Aren't His wives part of the members of his family?" Thereupon Zaid said, "His wives are members of his family [in a general sense], but (Islamically), the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of zakat is forbidden." Hussain asked, "Who are they?". Upon which Zaid said, "Ali and the offspring of Ali, Aqil and the offspring of Aqil, the offspring of Jaffer, and the offspring of Abbas." Hussain said "These are those for whom the acceptance of zakat is forbidden?" Zaid replied, "Yes."
Sahih Muslim #31.5920-2.
According to Sahih Muslim, Zaid then expanded on this hadith and stated this:
Hussain Then asked: "Aren't the wives (Of the Prophet) included amongst the members of the household?" He said, "No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man [as his wife] for a certain period; he then divorces her, and she goes back to her parents and her people. The members of his household include his own self, and his kith, and kin, for whom the acceptance of zakat is prohibited."
Sahih Muslim #31.5923
Now to get the exact hadith on who is being referred to in this verse of the Qur'an, again we look at the hadith which are both deemed Sahih by Sunnis and Shiites, and are accepted. To this let me give you the sources of the Hadith (As recorded in the Sunni books, not the Shiite sources), because I don't want write them all out.
Sahih Muslim #31.5955
Sunan Tirmidhi #3787, #3205
Tafsir Al Durr Al Manthoor, under 33:33
Tafsir Tabari again under 33:33
Tafsir Ibn Katheer, Another reference by Al Durr Al Manthur under said verse, Tafsir Ibn Atiyyah, Tafsir Thalabi, all under 33:33
I won't go on to proofs of the Masoomiyaat, and other ideas and proofs around the Ahlul bayt being referred to in this verse, but yeah I'll end there after proving it is the Ahlul Bayt (Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Hussain) being talked about in the verse.
I already proved 33:33, let's focus on 5:55, you say it has nothing to do with my religion, honestly, either you're ignorant of your own Sunni books, or you're a Qur'anist, if you're a Qur'anist, God take mercy on you, it just blows me away that a sect like that exists. But let me provide you Hadith to show that this verse was in reference to Imam Ali on the incident of giving his ring to the poor man, while he was praying. Firstly let's see the verse on it's own without hadith, it translates to "Verily your Vali is none other than Allah, and his Messenger, and those who have believed, and keep on prayers, and give the poor-rate, while bowing down." Now many translators say it means and they bow down, but no, it's not "Wa Raki'oon" (And Bow Down), it's "Hum Raki'oon" (While they Bow down). You need to think that this verse is referring to a specific person, who's done all these tasks. Now to find out we go to the Hadith of the Shiite and Sunni, though the Ahadith are with the Shiites anyways, let's see the Sunni places they've been recorded.
Tafsir al Kabir, by Ahmad Ibn Mohammed Al Ta'libi, under 5:55
Tafsir Al Kabir, by Ibn Jarir Al-Tabari, Volume 6, page 186, 288-289
Tafsir Al Jamiul Hukam Al Qur'an, by Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Qurtubi, Volume 6, Page 219
Tafsir Al Khazin, Volume 2, page 68
Tafsir Al Dur Al Manthur, by Jalaludeen Al Sayuti, Volume 2, page 293-294

Tafsir Al Khashaf, by Al Zamakhshari, Egypt 1373, volume 1, page 505, 649

Asbab Al Nuzool, by Jalaludeen Al Suyuti, Egypt 1383, Volume 1 page 73, on Authority of Ibn Abbas

Shahr Al Tijrid, by Allamah Qushji

Akham Al Qur'an, Al Jassas, Volume 2 page 542-543

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Volume 5 page 38

Kanzul Umal, by al Muttaqi al Hindi, volume 6 page 391

Al Awsat, by Tabarani, narrated on authority of Ammar Ibn Yassir

Tafseer Al Manar, Volume 6 page 366

Tafseer Ibn Katheer, Voume 2, page 113-114, (Beirut 1986 edition)

Al Riyad Al Nadir, Volume 2 page 302
All of those above sources, and more, all confirm it was Imam Ali being referred to directly within this verse, and all record the incident of the ring.
I just want to say how you go around, calling people Ignorant, and considering yourself to be so wise, is the most ironic thing I've seen, as can be observed in this situation...

Sunni responses:

You think anyone is going to read that :/ ?

@ dagga, maashAllah I love your patience. I can't tolerate their hatred, makes me cross! that was something new to me I've never ecountered the true meanings of shia uptil I joined shiachat. You can present the truth tue them till you're blue in the face but they'll just spin it according to their liking.
I hope Allah guides them.

Maybe these people should look up the meaning of the words hypocrisy and irony. They reject the Quran and Sunnah, but continue saying they are on the right path of Islam and tell others that do follow the Quran and Sunnah they are on the wrong path.

Surah Al-Munafiqun (The Hypocrites):

{1} "When the hypocrites come to you they say, 'We bear witness that you are indeed the apostle of Allah.' Allah knows that you are indeed His Apostle, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are indeed liars."

{2} "They make a shield of their oaths, and bar from the way of Allah. Evil indeed is what they used to do."

Surah Al-Hajj:

{54} "That those who have been given knowledge may know that it is the truth from your Lord, and so they may have faith in it, and their hearts may be humbled before Him. Indeed Allah guides those who have faith to a straight path."

{55} "Those who are faithless persist in their doubt about it, until the Hour overtakes them suddenly, or they are overtaken by the punishment of an inauspicious day."

{56} "On that day all sovereignty will belong to Allah: He will judge between them. Then those who have faith and do righteous deeds will be in gardens of bliss,"

{57} "and those who are faithless and who deny Our signs —for such there will be a humiliating punishment. "

Allah will punish them for their hypocrisy and denying Allah's signs, as well as barring others from the way of Allah.

Surah As-Saaffat, Ayah 83:

"And most surely Ibraham was among the Shia of him (i.e., Noah)"

Sunni rebuttal: "So?! Who cares if the Quran said Ibrahim, a Prophet of Allah, was a Shia?!"

Surah As-Sajda, Ayah 24-25:

{24} "And amongst them We appointed imams to guide [the people] by Our command, when they had been patient and had conviction in Our signs."

{25} "Indeed your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that about which they used to differ."

Sunni rebuttal: N/A

This also backs the Shia belief that Imams are divinely appointed, and not elected as many of the Sunni Caliphs were. It is also important to note that these are also individual Ayahs.

Sunnis don't perform Wudu according to the Quran (Surah Al-Ma'ida, Ayah 6) and say their Wudu is better

Surah Al-Ma'ida, Ayah 6:

"O you who have faith! When you stand up for prayer, wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe a part of your heads and your feet, up to the ankles."

It specifically says to "wipe" part of your heads and feet, not 'wash'. This is further emphasized by the fact that it was not simply included into same part as 'washing' faces and hands up to the elbows, but rather is a separate articulation/elaboration. It also specifically says "a part" of your heads and feet, not your entire foot.

Sunni rebuttal: "Our way is more complete! That is the bare minimum in the Quran!"

Astaghfirullah... And these are the same ones making up slanderous lies about the Shia believing the Quran is incomplete? I've seen many Sunni prayer guides that, when talking about Wudu, say to wash the feet 'properly' by washing the whole foot. Is the way in the Quran not proper?! Astaghfirullah...

Surah Al-Anfaal, Ayah 75:

"And those who believed afterwards and migrated, and waged jihad along with you, they belong to you; but the blood relatives are more entitled to inherit from one another in the Book of Allah. Indeed Allah has knowledge of all things."

This Ayah is clearly talking to the Prophet (pbuh), as it is talking about migrating (i.e. to Medinah) and waging Jihad (i.e. the people who migrated to Medinah and waged Jihad with the Prophet (pbuh) against the polytheists). Ayah 70 also starts with "O Prophet!" and Ayah 75 is a continuation of the same sequence.

Surah Al-Anfaal:

{70} "O Prophet! Say to the captives who are in your hands, 'If Allah finds any good in your hearts, He will give you [something which is] better than what has been taken away from you, and He will forgive you, and Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful.'"

{71} "But if they seek to betray you, then they have already betrayed Allah earlier, and He gave [you] power over them; and Allah is all-knowing, all-wise."

{72} "Indeed those who have believed and migrated and waged jihad with their possessions and persons in the way of Allah, and those who gave [them] shelter and help —they are heirs of one another. As for those who have believed but did not migrate, you have no heirdom in relation to them whatsoever until they migrate. Yet if they ask your help for the sake of religion, it is incumbent on you to help them, excepting against a people with whom you have a treaty; and Allah sees best what you do."

{73} "As for the faithless, they are allies of one another. Unless you do the same, there will be turmoil on the earth and great corruption."

{74} "Those who have believed, migrated, and waged jihad in the way of Allah, and those who gave them shelter and help, it is they who are truly the faithful. For them shall be forgiveness and a noble provision."

{75} "And those who believed afterwards and migrated, and waged jihad along with you, they belong to you; but the blood relatives are more entitled to inherit from one another in the Book of Allah. Indeed Allah has knowledge of all things."

Sunni rebuttal: N/A

This is also in line with other Ayahs from the Quran about Prophets passing down divine authority through their progeny.

Surah Al-Anbiya:

{72} "And We gave him Ishaq, and Yaqub as well for a grandson, and each of them We made righteous."

{73} "We made them imams, guiding by Our command, and We revealed to them the performance of good deeds, the maintenance of prayers, and the giving of zakat, and they used to worship Us."

Surah Al-Ankabut, Ayah 27:

"And We gave him Ishaq and Yaqub, and We ordained among his descendants prophethood and the Book, and We gave him his reward in the world, and in the Hereafter he will indeed be among the Righteous."

Surah Maryam:

{51} "And mention in the Book Musa. Indeed he was exclusively dedicated [to Allah], and an apostle and a prophet."

{52} "We called him from the right side of the Mount and We drew him near for confidential discourse."

{53} "And We gave him out of Our mercy his brother Harun, a prophet."

We come to this again:

'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) was greatly troubled and saddened by the circulation of these rumors, and he hastened to the presence of the Prophet (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå‎) who had already left Madinah. He told him what had happened, and with a single historic sentence he clarified the special position of 'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) once and for all:
"Are you not content that your relation to me shall be like the relation of Harun to Musa, excepting only that there shall be no prophet after me?"
al-Hakim, al-Mustadrak, Vol. III, p. 63
al-Nasa'i, al-Khasa'is, p. 63
al-Hamawini, Fara'id al-simtayn, Vol. I, p. 328
al-Dhahabi, Talkhis al-Mustadrak, Vol. III, p. 132
Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, Vol. I, p. 331
al-Khwarazmi, al-Manaqib, p. 72
al-Ganji, Kifayat al-Talib, p. 116
Ibn Asakir, al-Tarikh al-Kabir, Vol. I, p. 203
al-Biladhuri, Ansab al-Ashraf, Vol. II, p. 106
Ibn Kathir, al-Bidayah, Vol. VII, p. 338
al-'Asqalani, al-Isabah, Vol. II, p.509.

Surah Al-An'am:

{82} "Those who have faith and do not taint their faith with wrongdoing —for such there shall be safety, and they are the [rightly] guided.'"

{83} "This was Our argument that We gave to Ibraham against his people. We raise in rank whomever We wish. Indeed your Lord is all-wise, all-knowing."

{84} "And We gave him Isaac and Jacob and guided each of them. And Nuh We had guided before, and from his offspring, Dawud and Sulaiman, Ayyub, Yaqub, Musa and Harun —thus do We reward the virtuous—"

{85} "and Zakariyya, Yahya, Isa and Ilyas, —each of them among the righteous—"

{86} "and Ismail, Alyasa, Yunus and Lut —each We graced over all the nations—"

{88} "That is Allah's guidance: with it He guides whomever He wishes of His servants. But were they to ascribe any partners [to Allah], what they used to do would not avail them."

{89} "They are the ones whom We gave the Book, the judgement and prophethood. So if these disbelieve in them, We have certainly entrusted them to a people who will never disbelieve in them."

{90} "They are the ones whom Allah has guided. So follow their guidance. Say, 'I do not ask you any recompense for it. It is just an admonition for all the nations.'"

Surah Al-Furqan:

{35} "Certainly We gave Musa the Book and We made Harun, his brother, accompany him as a minister."

{36} "Then We said, 'Let the two of you go to the people who have denied Our signs.' Then We destroyed them utterly."

Surah Al-Qasas:

{34} "Harun, my brother —he is more eloquent than me in speech. So send him with me as a helper to confirm me, for I fear that they will impugn me.'"

{35} "He said, 'We will strengthen your arm by means of your brother, and invest both of you with such authority that they will not touch you. With the help of Our signs, you two, and those who follow the two of you, shall be the victors.'"

Closing statement:

Sunnis who see these signs from the Quran and Sunnah and continue to reject Islam in favor of Sunni'ism can no longer be considered Muslims (imo). There are certain requirements for being a Muslim, and among them are believing in and following the Quran 100% and obeying the Prophet of Allah (pbuh), neither of which Sunnis do. Sunnis have created and follow deviations in Islam, and worse than that is that they accuse Islam of deviations and fabricate lies against Allah's perfected religion. These issues are extremely serious and need to be confronted at every opportunity. I always see people who post here saying 'omg don't say that! You'll hurt the Sunnis feelings!' Islam is more important than their ego. The Quran says to talk in a way that is best, but never says to compromise the truth in doing so. Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) confronted the Sunnis deviations and wrongdoing from the very moment it started and called them munafiqun. People mistake his patience for passiveness.

Nahj al-Balagha, Sermon 6:

"By Allah I shall not be like the badger, which feigns sleep on continuous (sound of) stone-throwing till he who is in search of it finds it or he who is on the look out for it overpowers it. Rather, I shall ever strike the deviators from truth with the help of those who advance towards it, and the sinners and doubters with the help of those who listen to me and obey, till my day (of death) comes. By Allah I have been continually deprived of my right from the day the Prophet died till today."

Nahj al-Balagha, Sermon 7:

"About the hypocrites (munafiqun)

'They have made Satan the master of their affairs, and he has taken them as partners. He has laid eggs and hatched them in their bosoms. He creeps and crawls in their laps. He sees through their eyes, and speaks with their tongues. In this way he has led them to sinfulness and adorned for them foul things like the action of one whom Satan has made partner in his domain and speaks untruth through his tongue.'

Footnotes by translator:

Amir al-mu'minin says about the hypocrites (i.e. those who opposed him before and during his Caliphate) that they are partners in action of Satan and his helpers and supporters. He too has befriended them so much that he has made his abode with them, resides on their bosoms, lays eggs and hatches young one from them there, while these young ones jump and play in their laps without demur. He means that Satanic evil ideas take birth in their bosoms and grow and thrive there. There is no restrain on them, nor restriction of any kind. He has so permeated in their blood and mingled in their spirit that both have become completely unified. Now eyes are theirs but sight is his, the tongue is theirs but the words are his, as the Prophet (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã) had said, "Verily, Satan permeates the progeny of Adam like blood." That is, just as the circulation of blood does not stop, in the same way the quick succession of Satan's evil ideas know no break and he draws man towards evil in sleep and wakefulness, and in every posture, rising or sitting. He so paints them with his dye that their word and action reflect an exact portrait of his word and action. Those whose bosoms shine with the effulgence of faith prevent such evil ideas but some are already ready to welcome those evils and these are the persons who under the garb of Islam are ever after advancement of heresy."

Surah Al-Imran, Ayah 19-20:

{19} "Indeed, with Allah religion is Islam, and those who were given the Book did not differ except after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves. And whoever defies Allah’s signs [should know that] Allah is swift at reckoning."

{20} "So if they argue with you, say, ‘I have submitted my will to Allah, and [so has] he who follows me.’ And say to those who were given the Book and the unlearned ones, ‘Do you submit?’ If they submit, they will certainly be guided; but if they turn away, then your duty is only to communicate; and Allah sees best the servants."

Surah Ghafir (Surah Al-Mu'min), Ayah 4:

"No one disputes the signs of Allah except the faithless. So do not be misled by their bustle in the towns."

Surah Al-Imran, Ayah 4:

"Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest penalty, and Allah is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retributions."

Surah Al-Ma'ida, Ayah 54:

"O you who have faith! Should any of you desert his religion, Allah will soon bring a people whom He loves and who love Him, [who will be] humble towards the faithful, stern towards the faithless, waging jihad in the way of Allah, not fearing the blame of any blamer. That is Allah’s grace which He grants to whomever He wishes, and Allah is all-bounteous, all-knowing."

Surah Al-Hajj:

{54} "That those who have been given knowledge may know that it is the truth from your Lord, and so they may have faith in it, and their hearts may be humbled before Him. Indeed Allah guides those who have faith to a straight path."

{55} "Those who are faithless persist in their doubt about it, until the Hour overtakes them suddenly, or they are overtaken by the punishment of an inauspicious day."

{56} "On that day all sovereignty will belong to Allah: He will judge between them. Then those who have faith and do righteous deeds will be in gardens of bliss,"

{57} "and those who are faithless and who deny Our signs —for such there will be a humiliating punishment."

Edited August 15, 2012 by AliHussainFaraji

Hassan_S · August 15, 2012

You have a point

But discovering that your way of life has been a lie is heartbreaking, therefore any possibility that you are wrong will be brought forward as an argument. call it a defence mechanism. The true believers are the ones that are ready to follow the truth whatever religion it may be, and these are the ones that are guided, otherwise the misguided will have a good exuse on judgement day

al-`Ajal Ya Imaam · August 15, 2012

Another variant of the Hadith you posted (Just a bit more to the dialogue) has actually been certified by a Sunni Imam:

A Jew named al-Nath`al came to the Prophet and said, "Muhammad! I wish to ask you about certain things which I have been keeping to myself; so, if you answer them, I shall declare my acceptance of Islam before you." The Prophet said, "Ask me, O father of Imarah!" So he asked him about many things till he was satisfied and admitted that the Prophet was right. Then he said, "Tell me about your wasi (successor): who is he? No prophet can ever be without a wasi; our prophet Moses had appointed Yusha` [Joshua] son of Noon as his successor." He said, "My wasi is Ali ibn Abu Talib followed by my grandsons al-Hasan and al-Husayn followed by nine men from the loins of al-Husayn." He said, "Then name them for me, O Muhammad!" The Prophet said, "Once al-Husayn departs, he will be succeeded by his son Ali; when Ali departs, his son Muhammad will succeed him. When Muhammad departs, his son Ja`far will succeed him. When Ja`far departs, he will be succeeded by his son Musa. When Musa departs, his son Ali will succeed him. When Ali departs, his son Muhammad will succeed him. When Muhammad departs, his son Ali will succeed him. When Ali departs, his son al-Hasan will succeed him, and when al-Hasan departs, al-Hujjah Muhammad al-Mahdi will succeed him. These are the twelve ones." That Jew, therefore, embraced Islam and praised Allah for having guided him.

Shaykh Sulayman Qanduzi al-Hanafi, book Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, p. 523.

Al Qonduzi states it was authenticated by Abu Hanifa

This really is a great proof for our Imamate, and our leaders (as)

Also there are 2 types of people here, there are 2 types of people everywhere, the ones who want to know, and are willing to learn, the ones who shut themselves off, and insult you, say you're misguided, call you rafidhi, reject evidence, ignore what you say, etc. God has talked about such people in Surah Yasin Ayat 8-9:

8: ÅöäóøÇ ÌóÚóáúäóÇ Ýöí ÃóÚúäóÇÞöåöãú ÃóÛúáóÇáðÇ Ýóåöíó Åöáóì ÇáúÃóÐúÞóÇäö Ýóåõã ãõøÞúãóÍõæäó

Inna jaAAalna fee aAAnaqihimaghlalan fahiya ila al-athqani fahummuqmahoon

Surely We have placed chains on their necks, and these reach up to their chins, so they have their heads raised aloft.

9:

æóÌóÚóáúäóÇ ãöä Èóíúäö ÃóíúÏöíåöãú ÓóÏðøÇ æóãöäú ÎóáúÝöåöãú ÓóÏðøÇ ÝóÃóÛúÔóíúäóÇåõãú Ýóåõãú áóÇ íõÈúÕöÑõæäó

WajaAAalna min bayni aydeehim saddanwamin khalfihim saddan faaghshaynahum fahum la yubsiroon

And We have made before them a barrier and a barrier behind them, then We have covered them over so that they do not see.

**Haydar Husayn** · August 15, 2012

Things are never as simple as they appear. By the way, Haroon (as) died before Musa (as), and therefore did not succeed him.

Jaysro · August 15, 2012

“The lowest quality of an ignorant man is that he lays claim to knowledge which he does not deserve. His most common characteristic is ignorance of his own ignorance, and the most extreme aspect of his ignorance is to reject knowledge.” — Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as)

**coldcow** · August 15, 2012

Have you posted this on a Sunni forum? If so, please post the link as I would like to read their responses.

If not, I know a non-Sunni forum where a few Muslims hang out that you can post it.

Merdan · August 15, 2012

Shaykh Sulayman Qanduzi al-Hanafi, book Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, p. 523.
Al Qonduzi states it was authenticated by Abu Hanifa

First, let me say that, me personally, I do believe that the 12 imams do come from Hezrat Ali and His progeny.

That being said, it's not logical to think that the hadith you have mentioned has any validity among Ahlus Sunnah. So, just a few hundred years ago, this supposed book (Yanabi' al-Muwadat) which is vastly unknown, with a hadith that has no chain or source from early Islam or the Prophet SAWS himself, that wasn't repeated in any of the early periods after Islam is supposedly validated by Abu Hanifa? When this wasn't in any way retransmitted during his time?

Ali_Ibn_Hussein · August 15, 2012

I was looking at these exact hadith in the darulislam publication of sahih bukhari that my friend has and we said the same thing

These hadith are right in front of them - in their most prized book after the Quran, and they still cannot see

Gypsy · August 15, 2012

These hadith are right in front of them - in their most prized book after the Quran, and they still cannot see

They can see. Just they don't think it means as much as we think it does. They are brainwashed to hold beliefs that are contradictory to the teaching of ahl al-bayt. And since they are the majority, they also think they are right because how can the majority be soo wrong.

Wing · August 15, 2012

I heard of Shia a very long time ago, it's just the first time that I research about it.

-Why is Ali so important?

-Why are the 12 imams so important...?

They were/are mere humans who did rightful things...just like any other rightful muslim....again, they are nothing special to be put above any rightful muslim. In addition, ANY intelligent muslim can be a leader, even if he has jewish blood.

I'm kinda new to this but even a blind man can see Shia likes Ali abit too much, just like the christians like jesus too much (that is wrong)

Despite the hadiths being labeled 100% correct, you can't take them 100%...

If you want to prove something, please, use the Quran and nothing else...

How strange it may be, it's my first time (2days ago) reading Surat al baqarah and Al imran. In both sura's have I found that shia is wrong, so is sunnah. Wanna know why? Our religion is I-s-l-a-m (only) there was no shia nor sunnah when the prophet came with the message...sura al imran is specifically talking about "do not divide"

For the record I did not find errors in basic sunna, I have(unfortunately) found in shia. I'll post evidence later when I have time for it...

P.S: to the OP, when you die and get asked by both angels: "what is your religion?" will you reply with "Shia"? My advice, change it to Islam...

**Haydar Husayn** · August 15, 2012

First, let me say that, me personally, I do believe that the 12 imams do come from Hezrat Ali and His progeny.
That being said, it's not logical to think that the hadith you have mentioned has any validity among Ahlus Sunnah. So, just a few hundred years ago, this supposed book (Yanabi' al-Muwadat) which is vastly unknown, with a hadith that has no chain or source from early Islam or the Prophet SAWS himself, that wasn't repeated in any of the early periods after Islam is supposedly validated by Abu Hanifa? When this wasn't in any way retransmitted during his time?

The hadith is blatantly fabricated and it makes no sense whatsoever from a historical point of view considering the huge disagreements that occurred after the deaths of several Imams as to who the successor was.

Jaysro · August 15, 2012

People back then didn't have google to look up the latest findings in previously censored hadith and information.

You do realize that these are the same sheeple that cursed Ali (as) for at least 3 generations...

Just sayin.

**Haydar Husayn** · August 15, 2012

People back then didn't have google to look up the latest findings in previously censored hadith and information.
You do realize that these are the same sheeple that cursed Ali (as) for at least 3 generations...
Just sayin.

So there were ahadith naming the 12 Imams (as) circulating in Sunni books, that were even authenticated by the likes Abu Hanifa, and yet companions of the Imams didn't always know in advance who the next Imam would be? Come on...

Muhammad Ibrahim · August 15, 2012

Surah Al-Kahf:

{27} "Recite what has been revealed to you from your Lord’s Book. Nothing can change His words, and you will never find any refuge besides Him."

{28} "Content yourself with the company of those who supplicate their Lord morning and evening, desiring His Face, and do not loose sight of them, desiring the glitter of the life of this world. And Do not obey him whose heart We have made oblivious to Our remembrance, and who follows his own desires, and whose conduct is [mere] profligacy."

{29} "And say, ‘[This is] the truth from your Lord: let anyone who wishes believe it, and let anyone who wishes disbelieve it.’ Indeed We have prepared for the wrongdoers a Fire whose curtains will surround them [on all sides]. If they cry out for help, they will be helped with a water like molten copper which will scald the faces. What an evil drink, and how ill a resting place!"

{30} "As for those who have faith and do righteous deeds —indeed We do not waste the reward of those who are good in deeds."

{31} "For such there will be the Gardens of Eden with streams running in them. They will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and wear green garments of silk and brocade, reclining therein on couches. How excellent a reward, and how good a resting place!"

AliHussainFaraji · August 16, 2012

I heard of Shia a very long time ago, it's just the first time that I research about it.
-Why is Ali so important?
-Why are the 12 imams so important...?

Because they are the successors to the Prophet (pbuh) and are the ones who maintained true Islam. Sunni'ism/the Sunni Calipha deviated the religion Allah had perfected.

They were/are mere humans who did rightful things...just like any other rightful muslim....again, they are nothing special to be put above any rightful muslim.

Firstly, they were not like any other Muslim because they divinely appointed and behaved, spoke and acted under divine command. Secondly, the Quran and hadith clearly states that they do have rights over every other Muslim. You're exemplifying the perfect use for this Ayah:

Surah Al-Imran, Ayah 19:

"Indeed, with Allah religion is Islam, and those who were given the Book did not differ except after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves. And whoever defies Allah’s signs [should know that] Allah is swift at reckoning.""

In addition, ANY intelligent muslim can be a leader

Not leader of the Ummah, which is what we're talking about here. They can be scholars.

II'm kinda new to this but even a blind man can see Shia likes Ali abit too much, just like the christians like jesus too much (that is wrong)

Go ahead and explain how Muslims (Shia) like Ali (as) in the same way Christians like Jesus (as) in any way whatsoever. Because there are drawings of him? The fact is they like him for his piousness and because he was a righteous servant of Allah. The Quran says that Allah has favored them (the Prophets and Imams), so that we too should favor them.

Also, how often do you see Sunnis saying we have to love all the Sahabah? They don't like the deviators of Islam too much? It's especially ironic considering some of the so-called 'Sahaba' also killed many of the other Sahaba.

Despite the hadiths being labeled 100% correct, you can't take them 100%...

In other words you will continue to reject the authentic words of the Prophet (pbuh). Go ahead and explain why you can't take them at 100%, because the Prophet's (pbuh) words contradict Sunni'ism? You would rather be a Sunni than be a Muslim and obey Allah and the Prophet (pbuh)? Astaghfirullah...

There is no way you can interpret it in any other way. The Prophet (pbuh) said that after him there will be 12 Muslim leaders, all of them from Quraysh. The 12 Shia Imams are the only 12 Muslims leaders, all of them from Quraysh. You either obey the Prophet (pbuh) or you don't. You are either a Muslim or you are not.

If you want to prove something, please, use the Quran and nothing else...

Firstly, I did. Maybe you should read the entire post. Secondly, the Quran says to obey the Prophet (pbuh), which you say we shouldn't do 100%.

This was an especially funny comment since Sunnis name themselves after the Sunnah.

How strange it may be, it's my first time (2days ago) reading Surat al baqarah and Al imran. In both sura's have I found that shia is wrong, so is sunnah. Wanna know why? Our religion is I-s-l-a-m (only) there was no shia

Funny, because I posted an Ayah from the Quran where Allah says Ibrahim (as) was a Shia.

Surah As-Saaffat, Ayah 83:

"And most surely Ibraham was among the Shia of him (i.e., Noah)"

Shias say we are Muslims. We only refer to ourselves as Shia when it's necessary to distinguish from Sunnis, Sufis, etc.

Furthermore, saying Shia is wrong because you falsely think it is a sect is utter nonsense. Shia beliefs are the only ones in accordance to Islam, and Sunni'ism (a created sect) is contradicted by it. Shia IS Muslim.

sura al imran is specifically talking about "do not divide"

Exactly, so why would the Sunnis divide into their own sect, reject the Prophet (pbuh) when he said that Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) is his successor and there will only be 12 Muslim leaders from Quraysh after him, and instead accept Abu Bakr as the Caliphate and more than 170 Caliphs, many of whom not from Quraysh, after him?

Why would they change the way Muslims pray?

Surah At-Tawba, Ayah 67:

"The Hypocrites, men and women, (have an understanding) with each other: They enjoin evil, and forbid what is just, and are close with their hands. They have forgotten Allah; so He hath forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are rebellious and perverse."

Surah Al-Ma'ida, Ayah 19:

"The Jews say, ‘Allah’s hand is tied up.’ Tied up be their hands, and cursed be they for what they say! Rather, His hands are wide open: He bestows as He wishes. Surely many of them will be increased by what has been sent to you from your Lord in rebellion and unfaith, and We have cast enmity and hatred amongst them until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they ignite the flames of war, Allah puts them out. They seek to cause corruption on the earth, and Allah does not like the agents of corruption."

Allah says the Jews hands are tied up, and guess who prays like the Jews.

Why would they change the Wudu?

*Note: This is from my post above, but it seems you haven't actually read the whole post*

Surah Al-Ma'ida, Ayah 6:
"O you who have faith! When you stand up for prayer, wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe a part of your heads and your feet, up to the ankles."
It specifically says to "wipe" part of your heads and feet, not 'wash'. This is further emphasized by the fact that it was not simply included into same part as 'washing' faces and hands up to the elbows, but rather is a separate articulation/elaboration. It also specifically says "a part" of your heads and feet, not your entire foot.

Why would they change the date of Ramadan?

"O Men, the unbelievers indulge in tampering with the calendar in order to make permissible that which Allah forbade, and to forbid that which Allah has made permissible."

- The Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) last sermon

Why would they kill the Ahlul Bayt?

*Note: This is also from my post above, but it seems you haven't actually read the whole post*

SAHIH MUSLIM
Book 031, Number 5920:
...O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household (Ahlul Bayt).
http://www.cmje.org/...lim/031-smt.php
NOTE:
"my sunna" hadith IS NOT WEAK. For it to be WEAK (dhaeef) it needs to have people in the chain of narration who 'forget easily' or 'have a bad memory.' A weak hadith - there is still chance that it is true. But the "my sunna" hadith has FABRICATORS in the chain! People who would openly make lies about the Sahaba and the ProphetÕáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå. So it is not only WEAK, but its is WORSE ---> FABRICATED (mawdhoo').

For the record I did not find errors in basic sunna, I have(unfortunately) found in shia. I'll post evidence later when I have time for it...

Do you have no shame before Allah? You try and deviate Allah's perfected religion and choose Sunni'ism over Islam? What's the matter with you? Go ahead and post a 100% authenticated part of the Sunnah that contradicts Shiasm. Are you also not the one who just said:

If you want to prove something, please, use the Quran and nothing else...

P.S: to the OP, when you die and get asked by both angels: "what is your religion?" will you reply with "Shia"? My advice, change it to Islam...

Where did you even see me refer to myself as Shia in the post? Even the thread title says Islam, not Shiasm. Shaitain is in your head thinking Shia is a sect. You should read the entire post, because it proves without any doubt that Shiasm is synonymous with Islam. Shia, and possibly ignorant Sunnis, Sufis, etc. (who are not aware of this truth and would convert to true Islam if they saw this), are the only Muslims. Sunni beliefs and practice are a contradiction to Islam.

You should take your own advice, because I will say I am Muslim and I will be sincere, but you will say Muslim and it will be a lie because a Muslim must accept the Quran, obey the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and does not reject Allah's signs. Allah may question you about why you rejected Islam when the truth came to you and favored being a Sunni instead of being a Muslim.

Surah Al-Munafiqun (The Hypocrites):

{1} "When the hypocrites come to you they say, 'We bear witness that you are indeed the apostle of Allah.' Allah knows that you are indeed His Apostle, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are indeed liars."

{2} "They make a shield of their oaths, and bar from the way of Allah. Evil indeed is what they used to do."

Surah Al-Hajj:

{54} "That those who have been given knowledge may know that it is the truth from your Lord, and so they may have faith in it, and their hearts may be humbled before Him. Indeed Allah guides those who have faith to a straight path."

{55} "Those who are faithless persist in their doubt about it, until the Hour overtakes them suddenly, or they are overtaken by the punishment of an inauspicious day."

{56} "On that day all sovereignty will belong to Allah: He will judge between them. Then those who have faith and do righteous deeds will be in gardens of bliss,"

{57} "and those who are faithless and who deny Our signs —for such there will be a humiliating punishment."

Surah Ghafir (Surah Al-Mu'min), Ayah 4:

"No one disputes the signs of Allah except the faithless. So do not be misled by their bustle in the towns."

Surah Al-Imran, Ayah 4:

"Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest penalty, and Allah is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retributions."

My advice to you is that you embrace Islam instead of Sunni'ism. May Allah guide you to the right path.

wayfarer. · August 16, 2012

mashallah

May Allah s.w.t bless you brother AliHussainFaraji for your efforts

Muhammad Ibrahim · August 16, 2012

Despite the hadiths being labeled 100% correct, you can't take them 100%...

Astaghfirullah... So now Sunnis reject the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Earlier today I saw a Sunni say those Ayahs in Surah As-Sajda, so they reject the Quran too... And all for what? So they follow Abu Bakr? Disgraceful.

P.S: to the OP, when you die and get asked by both angels: "what is your religion?" will you reply with "Shia"? My advice, change it to Islam...

Maybe you should wake up. He will say he is a Muslim because he IS a Muslim. What will YOU say when you get asked why you chose to be a Sunni instead of a Muslims and told people not to listen to the Prophet (pbuh) and denied the Quran?

AliHussainFaraji · August 16, 2012

Things are never as simple as they appear. By the way, Haroon (as) died before Musa (as), and therefore did not succeed him.

He still succeeded him. Succession means in subsequent order, not who lives longer. Harun (as) was appointed by Allah after Musa (as). By your logic the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) didn't succeed the Prophet Isa (as) because the Prophet Isa (as) is still alive.

Have you posted this on a Sunni forum? If so, please post the link as I would like to read their responses.
If not, I know a non-Sunni forum where a few Muslims hang out that you can post it.

No, I have, however, shared it with many Sunnis.

Some of the responses I've gotten so far:

"You filthy Persian Shia kaffir pig Islam is the religion of the ARABS and the ARABS are SUNNI except for a few dirty Shia pigs. All the Prophets were ARAB all and the Sahabah were ARAB, GOD LOVES THE ARABS AND MADE THEM SUPERIOR TO YOU so you filthy persians BURN IN HELL"

My response: "An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over a white except by piety and good action."

- The Prophet Muhammad's (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå‎) last sermon

"IF SHIA WUS RIGHT DEN WHY DID Allah MAKES MECCA AND MEDINAH BE UNDER THE CONTROL OF SUNNIS?! BECAUSE SUNNI IS TRUE ISLAM"

My response: And Al Aqsa is under the control of the Zionists, does that mean that Zionism is true Islam? Mecca and Madinah has been under the control of polytheists for centuries. That also does not change true Islam in any way.

"GO WORSHIP GRAVES YOU KAFFIR YOU SHIRK BUILD SHRINES OVER DEAD BODIES"

My response: Building places of whorship around holy sites is in the Quran.

Surah Al-Kahf, Ayah 21:

"And thus did We make (men) to get knowledge of them, that they might know that Allah's promise is true and that as for the hour there is no doubt about it. When they disputed among themselves about their affair and said: Erect and edifice over them - their Lord best knows them. Those who prevailed in their affair said: We will certainly raise a Masjid over them."

Tafsir:

"The king and his followers differed in what they saw. Some said lets build an edifice just as was there. Others said lets build a Masjid at the mouth of the cave. This dispute came after knowledge of their death, according to Ibn 'Abbas. Some say that the idol worshipers of that time wanted to build an edifice to hide them from people (because it was a sign of God)."

"'Those who prevailed in their affair...' is a reference to the God-believing king and his companions because they built a place of worship whereby people could know of these signs and get the blessing of praying at this sacred place."

Feel free the post the OP on any forum you'd like.

mashallah
May Allah s.w.t bless you brother AliHussainFaraji for your efforts

Thank you, brother. May Allah bless you as well.

Omar is known for alot of improvements and order to the islamic world, his most impressive is justice. Are you picking on him because he was chosen before Ali to be Caliph?
I'll say this once so pay attention: THE ONLY HUMANS YOU NEED TO ANKNOWLEDGE APART FROM GOD/ANGELS ARE THE PROPHETS, ALI IS NOT ONE OF THEM! Forget about "Ahlul bayt" Not written in Quran = utter BS.

He says Umar was the second Caliph, then goes on to say if something is not in the Quran that it's utter BS. Please show me where it says Umar is the second Caliph in the Quran. Please show me where it says Abu Bakr was the first Caliph in the Quran.

Edited August 16, 2012 by AliHussainFaraji

Wing · August 16, 2012

Because they are the successors to the Prophet and are the ones who maintained true Islam. Sunni'ism/the Sunni Calipha deviated the religion Allah had perfected.

Says who? Some old "hadith" which you find reasonable and declare it authentic? If the "sunni calipha" deviated the religion don't you think almighty ali would have stepped forward? He lived in that period, so no excuse...

I respect every past leader, they all did their things (I think) in the way of Allah. Cursing/mocking someone who lived 10 million years ago (sarcasm)- and that according to a "hadith" should make you start thinking outside the box.

Firstly, they were not like any other Muslim because they divinely appointed and behaved, spoke and acted under divine command. Secondly, the Quran and hadith clearly states that they do have rights over every other Muslim. You're exemplifying the perfect use for this Ayah:
Surah Al-Imran, Ayah 19:
"Indeed, with Allah religion is Islam, and those who were given the Book did not differ except after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves. And whoever defies Allah’s signs [should know that] Allah is swift at reckoning."

So where is that clear right? I marked the most important part in red. The orange part is talking about you(shia), sunna and other factions...

Not leader of the Ummah, which is what we're talking about here. They can be scholars.

(again) Says who?? Some old "tradition/hadith"? Allah choses whoever he wants, it's not up to you, me or the guy nextdoor. To make it clearer:

And their prophet said to them, "Indeed, Allah has sent to you Saul as a king." They said, "How can he have kingship over us while we are more worthy of kingship than him and he has not been given any measure of wealth?" He said, "Indeed, Allah has chosen him over you and has increased him abundantly in knowledge and stature. And Allah gives His sovereignty to whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing [in favor] and Knowing."

adding something to it, Sultan Qutuz saved the islamic world aka "ummah" by defeating the mongols at Ain Jalut, guess what? He basically was the only leader who could make a last stand, and he wasn't of arab descent, let alone a descendant of ahlul bait.

Go ahead and explain how Muslims (Shia) like Ali in the same way Christians like Jesus in any way whatsoever. Because there are drawings of him? The fact is they like him for his piousness and because he was a righteous servant of Allah. The Quran says that Allah has favored them (the Prophets and Imams), so that we too should favor them.
Also, how often do you see Sunnis saying we have to love all the Sahabah? They don't like the deviators of Islam too much? It's especially ironic considering some of the so-called 'Sahaba' also killed many of the other Sahaba.

there you go:

In Shia Islam, the creed is expanded with the addition of a phrase concerning Ali at the end:

"æÚáíñ æáíõø Çááå", wa ʿAliyyun waliyyu l-Lāh [“and Ali is the wali (friend; viceregent) of God”].

It may look all natural to you because you grew up in the way of shia, but I can guarantee you, THIS is NOT allowed. There is no 100% proof so don't alter shahada & Athan.

Given you this, don't you think if one alters this can alter many other things aswell? Or are you going to tell me next that Prophet himself said to add Ali in the end?

Funny, because they claim shia killed ahlul bait, and such and such.

Never ending cicle.

Stop accusing eachother of ppl who died 1400 years ago like 12 year old kids pointing at eachother....and learn to move on...

In other words you will continue to reject the authentic words of the Prophet . Go ahead and explain why you can't take them at 100%, because the Prophet's words contradict Sunni'ism? You would rather be a Sunni than be a Muslim and obey Allah and the Prophet ? Astaghfirullah...

The red markings are so medieval lol....that's how priests used to mislead their nation. Who says it's the prophets words and ... authentic...? Every faction has their "authentic" words, doesn't mean it IS...

Orange markings are what cause separation, creating factions, hatred, civil wars, one way thinking...

1) You thought in my place and already came to a conclusion

2) you called a Sunni a complete kafir

I see it will be very hard showing you proof and I wouldn't be surprised if most sunni/shia's are like this.

There is no way you can interpret it in any other way. The Prophet said that after him there will be 12 Muslim leaders, all of them from Quraysh. The 12 Shia Imams are the only 12 Muslims leaders, all of them from Quraysh. You either obey the Prophet or you don't. You are either a Muslim or you are not.

Ofc you can, think outside the box, jump out of the hamster wheel lol. Show me the source of this pls, I want to make my own conclusion...

Firstly, I did. Maybe you should read the entire post. Secondly, the Quran says to obey the Prophet , which you say we shouldn't do 100%.

1. Stop assuming things (I read your entire post) and come to conclusions. this is the first step to jump of the hamster wheel.

2. Don't twist my words...Not obeying the prophet is not obeying the Quran. Don't involve hadiths, most of them have "I heard the prophet say" and it goes on with the writers point of view. < source of factions.

This was an especially funny comment since Sunnis name themselves after the Sunnah.
Funny, because I posted an Ayah from the Quran where Allah says Ibrahim was a Shia.
Surah As-Saaffat, Ayah 83:
"And most surely Ibraham was among the Shia of him (i.e., Noah)"

I'll be honest, my knowledge is limited about the quran, I haven't read it much...But...

About Abraham:

(a verse in the quran)

Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah ]. And he was not of the polytheists.

Associating Abraham with you o_O Don't you see you're making the same mistake as the jews/christians did, just to prove your point...?

Shias say we are Muslims. We only refer to ourselves as Shia when it's necessary to distinguish from Sunnis, Sufis, etc.
Furthermore, saying Shia is wrong because you falsely think it is a sect is utter nonsense. Shia beliefs are the only ones in accordance to Islam, and Sunni'ism (a created sect) is contradicted by it. Shia IS Muslim.
Exactly, so why would the Sunnis divide into their own sect, reject the Prophet when he said that Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib is his successor and there will only be 12 Muslim leaders from Quraysh after him, and instead accept Abu Bakr as the Caliphate and more than 170 Caliphs, many of whom not from Quraysh, after him?

About division and rejecting what the prophet so-called said , read my verse of the quran above about Saul, you really sound like them(no offense) in that verse, don't you think?

About "falsely thinking it is a sect":

And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."

Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.

And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not.

Why would they change the way Muslims pray?
Surah At-Tawba, Ayah 67:
"The Hypocrites, men and women, (have an understanding) with each other: They enjoin evil, and forbid what is just, and are close with their hands. They have forgotten Allah; so He hath forgotten them. Verily the Hypocrites are rebellious and perverse."
Surah Al-Ma'ida, Ayah 19:
"The Jews say, ‘Allah’s hand is tied up.’ Tied up be their hands, and cursed be they for what they say! Rather, His hands are wide open: He bestows as He wishes. Surely many of them will be increased by what has been sent to you from your Lord in rebellion and unfaith, and We have cast enmity and hatred amongst them until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they ignite the flames of war, Allah puts them out. They seek to cause corruption on the earth, and Allah does not like the agents of corruption."
Allah says the Jews hands are tied up, and guess who prays like the Jews.

Hmmmm.......perception, interpretation.........../sigh

Sura is named Al-Ma"ida, doesn't it mean 'meal'? So that's the main subject..

Jews said 'Allah’s hand is tied up' meaning, he is stingy..............What kind of reasoning is that to associate it with prayer when the next line says 'His hands are wide open: He bestows as He wishes'

Besides - making a fuss over such a small detail (which is not even right) only shows how hard Shia tries to prove Sunna wrong, and vice versa.

Why would they change the Wudu?
*Note: This is from my post above, but it seems you haven't actually read the whole post*

^confirming my "assuming-and-already-deciding-what's-what-mentality"

And such a small detail DOES NOT MATTER, look at it from a grown man's POV, don't you think it's ridiculous/hilarious?? How will this small detail change a nation lol...

Why would they change the date of Ramadan?
"O Men, the unbelievers indulge in tampering with the calendar in order to make permissible that which Allah forbade, and to forbid that which Allah has made permissible."
- The Prophet Muhammad's last sermon
Why would they kill the Ahlul Bayt?
*Note: This is also from my post above, but it seems you haven't actually read the whole post*

(again) ^confirming my "assuming-and-already-deciding-what's-what-mentality" this is almost amusing..

Didn't the ppl 'around' Ali kill him and so on(hussain etc..)? Read above about the never ending cicle and blaiming eachother about dead ppl. My point of view? I don't give a **** how he or anyone else died. I judge by his living actions, and at the end of the line saying shahada. Stop bickering about dead ppl for god's sake...

Where did you even see me refer to myself as Shia in the post? Even the thread title says Islam, not Shiasm. Shaitain is in your head thinking Shia is a sect. You should read the entire post, because it proves without any doubt that Shiasm is synonymous with Islam. Shia, and possibly ignorant Sunnis, Sufis, etc. (who are not aware of this truth and would convert to true Islam if they saw this), are the only Muslims. Sunni beliefs and practice are a contradiction to Islam.

Not in your post, but there...below your profile pic, it's about to bite you...

Orange: Says you? Scholars? They say the same thing about you. What I say: Hypocrites.

What are hadiths? A mere text written by mere humans to 'guide you' to the right path, NOT source of information, as the ONLY source is the Quran. Learn from history and watch the christians alter the book to their perception. Even now they claim it 'authentic' heh..

You should take your own advice, because I will say I am Muslim and I will be sincere, but you will say Muslim and it will be a lie because a Muslim must accept the Quran, obey the Prophet Muhammad and does not reject Allah's signs. Allah may question you about why you rejected Islam when the truth came to you and favored being a Sunni instead of being a Muslim.

Funny, now it's up to you to know the unseen, I see i'm Kafir in your eyes, not that your words mean much lol... Even funnier, associating your hadiths with the word of God (Quran)...

Words...words..."signs" can be seen as "delusions" and so forth...Tell you what, if Ali and ahlul bait were really THAT important, don't you think it would be written in the quran CLEARLY, just like Abraham AND his family is mentioned in the quran??

Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds < Sura Al imran.

Is it written in the Quran somewhere; and the family of Mohammad...didn't think so? I respect each and every last one of them, but I'll never hold them almost as high or as high as a prophet. They are mere humans ffs...

My advice to you is that you embrace Islam instead of Sunni'ism. May Allah guide you to the right path.

You're assuming things till the very end of your post, tbh I find it weird...Just so you know, I am NOT a sunni. My Religion is Islam and I associate it with no factions.

Wing · August 16, 2012

He says Umar was the second Caliph, then goes on to say if something is not in the Quran that it's utter BS. Please show me where it says Umar is the second Caliph in the Quran. Please show me where it says Abu Bakr was the first Caliph in the Quran.

LoL ! Nice try holding me for a fool. I go by historical evidence, not some random hadith showing up 500 years after the prophet, taking it as "authentic" (sarcasm), and what's worse causing division in islam. I'll just play your game I guess, show in the quran where Ali is the first Imam? What a joke...

Wing · August 17, 2012

Astaghfirullah... So now Sunnis reject the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Earlier today I saw a Sunni say those Ayahs in Surah As-Sajda, so they reject the Quran too... And all for what? So they follow Abu Bakr? Disgraceful.
Maybe you should wake up. He will say he is a Muslim because he IS a Muslim. What will YOU say when you get asked why you chose to be a Sunni instead of a Muslims and told people not to listen to the Prophet (pbuh) and denied the Quran?

^This....exactly this sheep mentality. Ppl live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. And they call that 'reality'.

Keywords: they, accept.

How many hadiths have been rejected as authentic? Because they don't go on the same line as your scholars's 'reality'. Their 'reality' became yours, creating a horde of sheep.

Now how many times is it written in the Quran "You can't change God's words". And where are these words? Exactly, in the quran and nowhere else(to be taken as authentic).

Red: Nice tool your using there, to make you sound more believable/sincere. Lmao. Show proof of me denying the Quran and if you can't, you'll bear a sin for that claim.

I was reading Sura al-ma'idah yesterday, came across this:

And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakah and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allah a goodly loan, I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way."

As I said before, my knowledge is limited about Shia, but I have no reason to investigate it in detail while the pillars it stands on are broken. So is my knowledge about quran(haven't read it much).

But my reasoning/understanding is almost unbreakable.

So my question to you is, can you find the exact line in the Quran saying "and We delegated from among the muslims Twelve leaders" < find this line in the quran and show me, then I'll reconsider investigating. Know that you have no excuse, it is written about the jews so certainly it would be written(as clear) about muslims.

BUT, if you can't find it....know that the first person who introduced shia is a BIG liar. And when you have your doubts (certainly an intelligent shi'i would.) When you pray to Allah, ask him: "pls guide me to the right path" and inshallah it will be clear to you.

**coldcow** · August 17, 2012

AliHussainFaraji, please post your stuff on this forum and thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=143849331

There is a Sunni brother there that is very knowledgeable and I'd like to see what he has to say. It could be that you were only speaking with Sunnis that didn't know much and panicked.

I'd post it, but I haven't posted on that forum in so long I can't remember the password. Also, I can't really provide a defense to the arguments to make, as I'm not as familiar with them as you. If you think you can defend it with him, I think it would be best if you posted it.

AliHussainFaraji · August 17, 2012

Says who? Some old "hadith" which you find reasonable and declare it authentic?

Says the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I did not delcare anything authentic, those hadiths are authentic according to both Shia and Sunnis. They are both from the strongest chain and are corroborated more than two dozen times.

If the "sunni calipha" deviated the religion don't you think almighty ali would have stepped forward? He lived in that period, so no excuse...

He did step forward. Maybe you should learn what you're talking about before you speak.

"Beware! By Allah the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr) dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill."

Nahj al-Balagha, sermon 3

"By Allah I shall not be like the badger, which feigns sleep on continuous (sound of) stone-throwing till he who is in search of it finds it or he who is on the look out for it overpowers it. Rather, I shall ever strike the deviators from truth with the help of those who advance towards it, and the sinners and doubters with the help of those who listen to me and obey, till my day (of death) comes. By Allah I have been continually deprived of my right from the day the Prophet died till today."

Nahj al-Balagha, Sermon 6

I respect every past leader, they all did their things (I think) in the way of Allah. Cursing/mocking someone who lived 10 million years ago (sarcasm)- and that according to a "hadith" should make you start thinking outside the box.

It's hilarious how you would say not to mock someone from years ago while mockingly saying "almighty ali." Do you ever say anything that's not ironic or hypocritical? YOU'RE the one who needs to think out of the box, because to YOU are the one who rejects anything outside of Sunnism.

So where is that clear right? I marked the most important part in red. The orange part is talking about you(shia), sunna and other factions...

Maybe you should learn to read before you talk. Scroll back up the page, then read the entire post (it seems like you're too scared to do so).

The Most Noble Messenger (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå‎) appointed 'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) to guard the city on his behalf, and he ordered that he should remain in Madinah until he returned, administering the affairs of the Muslims. When the Hypocrites realized that their treacherous plans had been divulged, they began spreading idle rumors in the hope of weakening 'Ali's position. They hinted that the Prophet (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå‎) was angry with 'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) and that it was for this reason that he had not been permitted to accompany him on a major military expedition.
'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) was greatly troubled and saddened by the circulation of these rumors, and he hastened to the presence of the Prophet (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå‎) who had already left Madinah. He told him what had happened, and with a single historic sentence he clarified the special position of 'Ali (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) once and for all:
"Are you not content that your relation to me shall be like the relation of Harun to Musa, excepting only that there shall be no prophet after me?"
At the end of this hadith there is a sentence that many Sunni scholars have recorded in their books:
"It is not fitting that I should depart without your being my deputy and successor."
al-Hakim, al-Mustadrak, Vol. III, p. 63
al-Nasa'i, al-Khasa'is, p. 63
al-Hamawini, Fara'id al-simtayn, Vol. I, p. 328
al-Dhahabi, Talkhis al-Mustadrak, Vol. III, p. 132
Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, Vol. I, p. 331
al-Khwarazmi, al-Manaqib, p. 72
al-Ganji, Kifayat al-Talib, p. 116
Ibn Asakir, al-Tarikh al-Kabir, Vol. I, p. 203
al-Biladhuri, Ansab al-Ashraf, Vol. II, p. 106
Ibn Kathir, al-Bidayah, Vol. VII, p. 338
al-'Asqalani, al-Isabah, Vol. II, p.509.
It has been 100% authenticated in the Sunnah that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said that he will leave the world with the Quran and Ahlul Bayt, and that the 'Quran and Sunnah' narration has been proven to be unauthentic.
SAHIH MUSLIM
Book 031, Number 5920:
...O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household.
http://www.cmje.org/...lim/031-smt.php
NOTE:
"my sunna" hadith IS NOT WEAK. For it to be WEAK (dhaeef) it needs to have people in the chain of narration who 'forget easily' or 'have a bad memory.' A weak hadith - there is still chance that it is true. But the "my sunna" hadith has FABRICATORS in the chain! People who would openly make lies about the Sahaba and the ProphetÕáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå. So it is not only WEAK, but its is WORSE ---> FABRICATED (mawdhoo').
Ayatullah Sayyid Kamaal al-Haidary has more than 10 episodes going through all 4 chains of "my sunna" and proves its NOT ONLY WEAK, but rather FABRICATED. If anyone dares to object, I will translate it inshaAllah.
Surah As-Sajda, Ayah 24-25:
{24} "And amongst them We appointed imams to guide [the people] by Our command, when they had been patient and had conviction in Our signs."
{25} "Indeed your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that about which they used to differ."
Sunni rebuttal: N/A
This also backs the Shia belief that Imams are divinely appointed, and not elected as many of the Sunni Caliphs were. It is also important to note that these are also individual Ayahs.
Surah Al-Anfaal, Ayah 75:
"And those who believed afterwards and migrated, and waged jihad along with you, they belong to you; but the blood relatives are more entitled to inherit from one another in the Book of Allah. Indeed Allah has knowledge of all things."
This Ayah is clearly talking to the Prophet (pbuh), as it is talking about migrating (i.e. to Medinah) and waging Jihad (i.e. the people who migrated to Medinah and waged Jihad with the Prophet (pbuh) against the polytheists). Ayah 70 also starts with "O Prophet!" and Ayah 75 is a continuation of the same sequence.
Surah Al-Anfaal:
{70} "O Prophet! Say to the captives who are in your hands, 'If Allah finds any good in your hearts, He will give you [something which is] better than what has been taken away from you, and He will forgive you, and Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful.'"
{71} "But if they seek to betray you, then they have already betrayed Allah earlier, and He gave [you] power over them; and Allah is all-knowing, all-wise."
{72} "Indeed those who have believed and migrated and waged jihad with their possessions and persons in the way of Allah, and those who gave [them] shelter and help —they are heirs of one another. As for those who have believed but did not migrate, you have no heirdom in relation to them whatsoever until they migrate. Yet if they ask your help for the sake of religion, it is incumbent on you to help them, excepting against a people with whom you have a treaty; and Allah sees best what you do."
{73} "As for the faithless, they are allies of one another. Unless you do the same, there will be turmoil on the earth and great corruption."
{74} "Those who have believed, migrated, and waged jihad in the way of Allah, and those who gave them shelter and help, it is they who are truly the faithful. For them shall be forgiveness and a noble provision."
{75} "And those who believed afterwards and migrated, and waged jihad along with you, they belong to you; but the blood relatives are more entitled to inherit from one another in the Book of Allah. Indeed Allah has knowledge of all things."

(again) Says who?? Some old "tradition/hadith"?

Are you saying we should't follow the Prophet because of how long he has been gone? Do you realize that the Quran is also 'old'? And by your same logic, we should follow Abuy Bakr even though he was around hundreds of years ago? Do you realize you have to follow what the Prophet (pbuh) says until the Day of Judgement? No, I'm sure you would rather follow what Abu Bakr says instead.

Allah choses whoever he wants, it's not up to you, me or the guy nextdoor. To make it clearer:
And their prophet said to them, "Indeed, Allah has sent to you Saul as a king." They said, "How can he have kingship over us while we are more worthy of kingship than him and he has not been given any measure of wealth?" He said, "Indeed, Allah has chosen him over you and has increased him abundantly in knowledge and stature. And Allah gives His sovereignty to whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing [in favor] and Knowing."

Congratulations, you just proved my point. That very quote says that "Indeed, Allah has chosen him over you and has increased him abundantly in knowledge and stature. And Allah gives His sovereignty to whom He wills." Meaning Allah chose/appointed him, people didn't vote for him like they did with the Sunni Caliphs.

there you go:
In Shia Islam, the creed is expanded with the addition of a phrase concerning Ali at the end:
"æÚáíñ æáíõø Çááå", wa ʿAliyyun waliyyu l-Lāh [“and Ali is the wali (friend; viceregent) of God”].
It may look all natural to you because you grew up in the way of shia, but I can guarantee you, THIS is NOT allowed. There is no 100% proof so don't alter shahada & Athan.
Given you this, don't you think if one alters this can alter many other things aswell? Or are you going to tell me next that Prophet himself said to add Ali in the end?

Firstly, that's not part of the Shahada. Secondly, Sunnis changed the Athan by removing 'Hayya- al Khair al amal'. So what's it going to be? Are you going to say changing the athan is okay now so you can continue being Sunni?

Funny, because they claim shia killed ahlul bait, and such and such.

Uhh, what?

Stop accusing eachother of ppl who died 1400 years ago like 12 year old kids pointing at eachother....and learn to move on...

Firstly, facts are not accusations. It is a fact the Sunnis killed Ahlul Bayt. Secondly, move on from what? Kaffir killing Allah's servants? Why, so you can hide the reality and continue worshiping Abu Bakr? The fact is you want to forget about those realities because it shows the kufr of your Sunni leaders and shows they were on the wrong path.

The red markings are so medieval lol....that's how priests used to mislead their nation. Who says it's the prophets words and ... authentic...? Every faction has their "authentic" words, doesn't mean it IS...

Those sources are authentic by both Sunnis and Shias. You're just making up desperate excuses so because you don't want to be Muslim and want to worship Abu Bakr instead. And no, people misled their nations by what YOU'RE doing. Saying to reject what their Prophets say and forget religion and make up their own religions instead.

Surah Al-Mutaffifin:

{10} Woe to the deniers on that day,

{11} who deny the Day of Retribution;

{12} and none denies it except every sinful transgressor.

{13} When Our signs are recited to him, he says, ‘Myths of the ancients!’

{14} No indeed! Rather their hearts have been sullied[967] by what they have been earning.

{15} No indeed! They will be alienated from their Lord on that day.

{16} Then they will indeed enter hell,

{17} then told, ‘This is what you used to deny!’

But I guess you believe the Quran is too old to follow too, right?

Orange markings are what cause separation, creating factions, hatred, civil wars, one way thinking...
1) You thought in my place and already came to a conclusion
2) you called a Sunni a complete kafir
I see it will be very hard showing you proof and I wouldn't be surprised if most sunni/shia's are like this.

Same guy who rejects proof from the Quran and Sunnah and starts talking out of his ass is saying it's hard to show someone else proof? LMAO

Ofc you can, think outside the box, jump out of the hamster wheel lol.

Oh, how ironic!

http://dictionary.re...rowse/hypocrite

http://dictionary.re...om/browse/irony

http://en.wikipedia....ical_projection

Show me the source of this pls, I want to make my own conclusion...

Can you read? I provided the sources in the OP. Oh right, you're too scared to read it. :lol:

Sahih Bukhari Book 89:329

Sahih Muslim Book 20:4477-4483

Sunan Abu Dawood Book 36:4266

Sunan al-Tirmidhi Hadith 2149 (numbering of al-Alamiyyah)

Musnad-e-Ahmad, vol 5, pg 87

More

1. Stop assuming things (I read your entire post) and come to conclusions. this is the first step to jump of the hamster wheel.

If you actually did read it, then I have no choice but to assume you're retarded because you keep asking for stuff that's already there, like the sources you just asked for.

2. Don't twist my words...Not obeying the prophet is not obeying the Quran. Don't involve hadiths, most of them have "I heard the prophet say" and it goes on with the writers point of view.

Direct quotes from the Prophet are the writer's point of view? Are you mentally challenged? They are corroborated by more than two dozen people and are coming from the strongest chain (authenticity). They are authentic according to both Sunnis and real Muslims.

Edited August 17, 2012 by AliHussainFaraji

AliHussainFaraji · August 17, 2012

source of factions.

What's a source of faction? Did you mean fiction? It's fiction because your god Abu Bakr told you so, right? :lol:

Those hadiths are 100% confirmed fact according to Islam (both Sunni and Shia). If you don't want to believe the Prophet (pbuh) so you can worship almighty Abu Bakr then that's too bad for you.

I'll be honest, my knowledge is limited about the quran, I haven't read it much...But...
About Abraham:
(a verse in the quran)
Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah ]. And he was not of the polytheists.
Associating Abraham with you o_O Don't you see you're making the same mistake as the jews/christians did, just to prove your point...?

Do you ever make any sense? What the hell are you talking about? Ibrahim (as) was a Prophet of Allah and the Quran says he was a Shia.

Shia = Muslim

Sunni = Abu Bakr worshipers

About division and rejecting what the prophet so-called said , read my verse of the quran above about Saul, you really sound like them(no offense) in that verse, don't you think?

That ayah confirmed everything I was saying. You broke off into a sect because you wanted to make Abu Bakr your Caliph and voted for many of you Caliphs. Islam says that Allah appoints them, which is what real Muslims (Shia) believe.

About "falsely thinking it is a sect":
And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers."
Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.
And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not.

Exactly. We believe in the Quran and Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and you do not. We did not reform anything, we follow the Quran and authenticated Sunnah exactly. It is Sunnis that made 'reforms' by changing the Wudu, changing the prayer, believing the Ahlul Bayt is not perfect, changing the date of Ramadan, making fabrications in the Sunnah, etc.

So why do you follow those who make corruption and 'reforms' instead of real Islam?

Sura is named Al-Ma"ida, doesn't it mean 'meal'? So that's the main subject..
Jews said 'Allah’s hand is tied up' meaning, he is stingy..............What kind of reasoning is that to associate it with prayer when the next line says 'His hands are wide open: He bestows as He wishes'

"Hmmmm.......perception, interpretation.........../sigh"

Besides - making a fuss over such a small detail (which is not even right) only shows how hard Shia tries to prove Sunna wrong, and vice versa.

Are you mentally challenged? I didn't do anything hard to prove Sunnis wrong, that was just one small example. You are the who is going through extrodinary lengths to worship Abu Bakr.

^confirming my "assuming-and-already-deciding-what's-what-mentality"
And such a small detail DOES NOT MATTER, look at it from a grown man's POV, don't you think it's ridiculous/hilarious?? How will this small detail change a nation lol...

Oh cool, so following the Quran is not a big deal anymore. I guess it's okay to be a polytheist and believe 20 gods. No big deal, right? And this is the guy telling me I'm trying too hard? I think YOU'RE rediculous for not following the Quran.

"And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers." Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not. And when it is said to them, "Believe as the people have believed," they say, "Should we believe as the foolish have believed?" Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not."

If you don't believe in the Quran then why am I even talking to you? You're a najis kaffir. Allah will punish you.

Edited August 17, 2012 by AliHussainFaraji

Muhammad Ibrahim · August 17, 2012

Wing just admitted he doesn't follow the Quran or Sunnah. Ya Allah...

I guess the only gods this shirk kaffir believes in are Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. I wonder what his excuse will be before Allah.

Surah Nuh:

{21} Noah said, ‘My Lord! They have disobeyed me, following someone whose wealth and children only add to his loss,

{22} and they have devised an outrageous plot.

{23} They say, ‘‘Do not abandon your gods. Do not abandon Wadd, nor Suws, nor Yaghuth, Ya'uq and Nasr,’’

{24} and already they have led many astray. Do not increase the wrongdoers in anything but error.’

{25} They were drowned because of their iniquities, then made to enter a Fire, and they did not find for themselves any helpers besides Allah.

In your case Ayah 23 would be:

"They say, ‘‘Do not abandon your gods. Do not abandon Abu Bakr, nor Umar, nor Uthman, Muawiyah and Yazid,’’

Edited August 17, 2012 by Muhammad Ibrahim

Jaysro · August 18, 2012

I've learned so much today, thank you!!May Allah guide us all inshAlaah:)

PS: an interesting thought:

‎"If you have a belief and you come against an experience which the belief says is not possible, or, the experience is such that you have to drop the belief, what are you going to choose — the belief or the experience? The tendency of the mind is to choose the belief, to forget about the experience. That’s how you have been missing many opportunities when God has knocked at your door."

Salaam

Wing · August 18, 2012

Says the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). I did not delcare anything authentic, those hadiths are authentic according to both Shia and Sunnis. They are both from the strongest chain and are corroborated more than two dozen times.

lol you're funny. 1 side declares something authentic and comming straight from the prophet while the other rejects it. Play that hypocrite game with the sheep will ya?

He did step forward. Maybe you should learn what you're talking about before you speak.
"Beware! By Allah the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr) dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill."
Nahj al-Balagha, sermon 3
"By Allah I shall not be like the badger, which feigns sleep on continuous (sound of) stone-throwing till he who is in search of it finds it or he who is on the look out for it overpowers it. Rather, I shall ever strike the deviators from truth with the help of those who advance towards it, and the sinners and doubters with the help of those who listen to me and obey, till my day (of death) comes. By Allah I have been continually deprived of my right from the day the Prophet died till today."
Nahj al-Balagha, Sermon 6
It's hilarious how you would say not to mock someone from years ago while mockingly saying "almighty ali." Do you ever say anything that's not ironic or hypocritical? YOU'RE the one who needs to think out of the box, because to YOU are the one who rejects anything outside of Sunnism.

That is to show you he was nothing special(just like any other human except the prophet).

I thought Ali's way was Allah's way, why didn't Allah make him first caliph then since Abu bakr and Omar were CLEAR Infidels? That's because the verse I provided about Saul is referring to AbuBakr/Omar. Compare it this way: The ones who admired Ali, being the jews who saw their self better than Saul. "Certainly Ali is DIVINE" yet he came 4th....

Maybe you should learn to read before you talk. Scroll back up the page, then read the entire post (it seems like you're too scared to do so).

Off-topic and nonsense, but ofc that's what everyone does when they don't know what to say.

Surah As-Sajda, Ayah 24-25:
{24} "And amongst them We appointed imams to guide [the people] by Our command, when they had been patient and had conviction in Our signs."
{25} "Indeed your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that about which they used to differ."
Sunni rebuttal: N/A
This also backs the Shia belief that Imams are divinely appointed, and not elected as many of the Sunni Caliphs were. It is also important to note that these are also individual Ayahs.
Surah Al-Anfaal, Ayah 75:
"And those who believed afterwards and migrated, and waged jihad along with you, they belong to you; but the blood relatives are more entitled to inherit from one another in the Book of Allah. Indeed Allah has knowledge of all things."
This Ayah is clearly talking to the Prophet (pbuh), as it is talking about migrating (i.e. to Medinah) and waging Jihad (i.e. the people who migrated to Medinah and waged Jihad with the Prophet (pbuh) against the polytheists). Ayah 70 also starts with "O Prophet!" and Ayah 75 is a continuation of the same sequence.
Surah Al-Anfaal:
{70} "O Prophet! Say to the captives who are in your hands, 'If Allah finds any good in your hearts, He will give you [something which is] better than what has been taken away from you, and He will forgive you, and Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful.'"
{71} "But if they seek to betray you, then they have already betrayed Allah earlier, and He gave [you] power over them; and Allah is all-knowing, all-wise."
{72} "Indeed those who have believed and migrated and waged jihad with their possessions and persons in the way of Allah, and those who gave [them] shelter and help —they are heirs of one another. As for those who have believed but did not migrate, you have no heirdom in relation to them whatsoever until they migrate. Yet if they ask your help for the sake of religion, it is incumbent on you to help them, excepting against a people with whom you have a treaty; and Allah sees best what you do."
{73} "As for the faithless, they are allies of one another. Unless you do the same, there will be turmoil on the earth and great corruption."
{74} "Those who have believed, migrated, and waged jihad in the way of Allah, and those who gave them shelter and help, it is they who are truly the faithful. For them shall be forgiveness and a noble provision."
{75} "And those who believed afterwards and migrated, and waged jihad along with you, they belong to you; but the blood relatives are more entitled to inherit from one another in the Book of Allah. Indeed Allah has knowledge of all things.
Are you saying we should't follow the Prophet because of how long he has been gone? Do you realize that the Quran is also 'old'? And by your same logic, we should follow Abuy Bakr even though he was around hundreds of years ago? Do you realize you have to follow what the Prophet (pbuh) says until the Day of Judgement? No, I'm sure you would rather follow what Abu Bakr says instead.
The verse about imams proves nothing, it's a general life-style, we have imams up to this day all over the place...But ofc from a deluded POV everything is a "sign" lmao. The rest of the verses have nothing to prove, random much?
Where did I ever mention that? (How many times do I have to repeat this....)Just because someone wrote "this is from the prophet" Doesn't Mean It IS. Many hadiths are right, but there are so many fakes(THEIR SOLE PURPOSE IS TO SPREAD HATE). To be on the safe side, don't take any of them seriously. Especially when you have a sheep mentality(90% of the ppl) -__________-
Ofc I realize the Quran is old, but it's safe cause Allah himself mentioned it(in the quran). It is far above any crook who alter things to their liking. Till this day, there is only 1 version.
Hello, brainz? Abu bakr lived around the same time as the prophet, how is that "by your logic"?? Oh w8...this sounds familiar, these hadiths you know.....
I'm just wondering how the hell you came up with Abu bakr. That line has hatred spreading for sure(DING?? Maybe next time..).
Congratulations, you just proved my point. That very quote says that "Indeed, Allah has chosen him over you and has increased him abundantly in knowledge and stature. And Allah gives His sovereignty to whom He wills." Meaning Allah chose/appointed him, people didn't vote for him like they did with the Sunni Caliphs.
Lol smart one. Didn't I mention deluded? History Recorded ALI as the 4th Caliph, how the hell did Allah choose him first when he came 4th?? So....(im talking slow for you) when your haters wanted Ali to be the first, Allah chose someone over him. (DING?? ok not yet...)
Firstly, that's not part of the Shahada. Secondly, Sunnis changed the Athan by removing 'Hayya- al Khair al amal'. So what's it going to be? Are you going to say changing the athan is okay now so you can continue being Sunni?
Hold on! Not so fast my friend, before accusing someone else let's discuss yours. I got that from Wiki, and it's written everywhere, and YOU'RE saying it is NOT part of the Shahada? You must be the Mahdi *.* or a deluded bedouin..... funny how you keep calling me sunni, when I clearly stated i'm muslim with no idiotic faction (sect, since you don't know what faction means..) And let me tell you, changing shahada without 100% proof is faaaaaaaaaaaar worse than changing athan - if what you say is true in the first place.
Uhh, what?
Exactly. Guess you won't find out running in the hamster wheel Ah-ah.
Firstly, facts are not accusations. It is a fact the Sunnis killed Ahlul Bayt. Secondly, move on from what? Kaffir killing Allah's servants? Why, so you can hide the reality and continue worshiping Abu Bakr? The fact is you want to forget about those realities because it shows the kufr of your Sunni leaders and shows they were on the wrong path.
Yea, it's been going for 1400 years now, heard enough accusations of both sides. Dumbasses.
I see hatred, someone's jelly because someone came before his beloved Ali. oh btw, I enjoyed you bearing that sin (red markings). Guess I won't have to mention that i'm not sunni, he won't see it anyway. Shia = islam. Anything else = kafir. I said one-way thinking before right?
Those sources are authentic by both Sunnis and Shias. You're just making up desperate excuses so because you don't want to be Muslim and want to worship Abu Bakr instead. And no, people misled their nations by what YOU'RE doing. Saying to reject what their Prophets say and forget religion and make up their own religions instead.
Surah Al-Mutaffifin:
{10} Woe to the deniers on that day,
{11} who deny the Day of Retribution;
{12} and none denies it except every sinful transgressor.
{13} When Our signs are recited to him, he says, ‘Myths of the ancients!’
{14} No indeed! Rather their hearts have been sullied[967] by what they have been earning.
{15} No indeed! They will be alienated from their Lord on that day.
{16} Then they will indeed enter hell,
{17} then told, ‘This is what you used to deny!’
But I guess you believe the Quran is too old to follow too, right?
Again, funny you say that line. When all I came with was the Quran and nothing else. But I guess you're trying to use the tactic "repeat a lie and it will be believed over-time".
That verse is reciting the Quran, not a hadith written by a crook.
Same guy who rejects proof from the Quran and Sunnah and starts talking out of his ass is saying it's hard to show someone else proof? LMAO
^Right there (repeating the lie tactic) trying to convince yourself? When (again) all I came to you with was verses of the Quran? "Making fun of someone" sounds familiar to me 2...and yes, it is proven, very hard to show a deluded person proof. I explicitly hinted to jump of the hamster wheel /sigh
All you see is AliAliAliAliAliAliAliAliAliAliAliAli, so I should have expected these kind of responses. The reply on Saul was hilarious, i'll give you that.
Can you read? I provided the sources in the OP. Oh right, you're too scared to read it. :lol:
Sahih Bukhari Book 89:329
Sahih Muslim Book 20:4477-4483
Sunan Abu Dawood Book 36:4266
Sunan al-Tirmidhi Hadith 2149 (numbering of al-Alamiyyah)
Musnad-e-Ahmad, vol 5, pg 87
If you actually did read it, then I have no choice but to assume you're retarded because you keep asking for stuff that's already there, like the sources you just asked for.

I meant the actual source, the original version written by the first person? *aaaahhhhh SFX*

Direct quotes from the Prophet are the writer's point of view? Are you mentally challenged? They are corroborated by more than two dozen people and are coming from the strongest chain (authenticity). They are authentic according to both Sunnis and real Muslims.

Funny, when you have a line saying: " I heard the prophet say" ... "and there was a line I didn't hear"

Those are "direct" quotes? So writers were deaf when the prophet was speaking? As I said, the writer would alter it slightly to his liking, and the next one does the same, till you barely recognize the hadith. /yawn

You see, it's easy to talk in an offensive way. I know it is hard to stay calm when you're proven wrong, and everything you stood on. When you learn how to talk in a civil way, feel free (actual proof needed ofc...)

Wing · August 18, 2012

Wing just admitted he doesn't follow the Quran or Sunnah. Ya Allah...
I guess the only gods this shirk kaffir believes in are Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman. I wonder what his excuse will be before Allah.

Funny, so far every Shi'i I prove wrong or he can't answer my questions, starts throwing these words. For real? When I said I am muslim with no faction (NOT SUNNI)? Want something CLEAR to add to the rest of my proof? If these words are what you are being teached from your hadiths, then 100000000%, Shia is based on hatred, and hatred is not from Allah.

Red: You bear yet another sin.

Surah Nuh:
{21} Noah said, ‘My Lord! They have disobeyed me, following someone whose wealth and children only add to his loss,
{22} and they have devised an outrageous plot.
{23} They say, ‘‘Do not abandon your gods. Do not abandon Wadd, nor Suws, nor Yaghuth, Ya'uq and Nasr,’’
{24} and already they have led many astray. Do not increase the wrongdoers in anything but error.’
{25} They were drowned because of their iniquities, then made to enter a Fire, and they did not find for themselves any helpers besides Allah.
In your case Ayah 23 would be:
"They say, ‘‘Do not abandon your gods. Do not abandon Abu Bakr, nor Umar, nor Uthman, Muawiyah and Yazid,’’

Lol, truth in sight ppl start to panic and talk out of their ass(literally)

before you throw off-topic, random verses, I'm doing this favor for you yet again.

My only hint is jump off the hamster wheel and look at it from a different angle, perception is written in the quran, so pay attention(this is the last time).

Sura al-Ma'idah:

And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakah and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allah a goodly loan, I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way."

I have no reason to investigate Shia in detail while the pillars it stands on are broken. This is but a simple proof contradicting your basic Shia, it is one among the many in my prev posts in this thread.

So my question to you is, can you find the exact line in the Quran saying "and We delegated from among the muslims Twelve leaders" < find this line in the quran and show me, then I'll reconsider investigating. Know that you have no excuse, it is written about the jews so certainly it would be written(as clear) about muslims.

BUT, if you can't find it....know that the first person who introduced shia was a BIG liar. And when you have your doubts (certainly an intelligent shi'i would.) When you pray to Allah, ask him: "pls guide me to the right path" and inshallah it will be clear to you.

These are my last comments to you (Though i'll still reply if you write something dumb lol), notice that you have no excuse when you stand before Allah on the day of resurrection, I gave you clear signs DIRECTLY from the QURAN in all my prev posts. EVEN the REACTIONS that will come after those signs, also DIRECTLY from the QURAN. So pls don't fool yourself, if you know by now and don't go by it like the jews did, know that hellfire will be extreme...

Ofc not entire shia is wrong, I see them as muslims, just ....how to say ....mislead. (Those of you overliking Ali, pls reconsider, you may not notice...) I'm sure most of you mean it in a good way...

Before you assume yet again, I AM MUSLIM, NOT SUNNI NOR SHIA NOR ANY OTHER DUMB FACTION.

‎"If you have a belief and you come against an experience which the belief says is not possible, or, the experience is such that you have to drop the belief, what are you going to choose — the belief or the experience? The tendency of the mind is to choose the belief, to forget about the experience. That’s how you have been missing many opportunities when God has knocked at your door."

Very wise words. This is of extreme importance, tyvm.

**coldcow** · August 18, 2012

Before you assume yet again, I AM MUSLIM, NOT SUNNI NOR SHIA NOR ANY OTHER DUMB FACTION.

I like to think of myself the same. Segregating ourselves into groups on causes us to look more and more at our differences than our similarities.

Righteous · August 18, 2012

@wing the brother wrote with references and your respond with wild conjecture and incoherent reasoning sprinkled with populist slogans...any educated person will infer that you are either too illiterate and/or bigoted to even fathom his arguments

@coldcow brother i think you are here for genuine learning so don't get misled by Ignoramuses like wing and objectively look at his sloganeerism and lack of intellectual/educated responses.

Wing · August 18, 2012

@wing the brother wrote with references and your respond with wild conjecture and incoherent reasoning sprinkled with populist slogans...any educated person will infer that you are either too illiterate and/or bigoted to even fathom his arguments
@coldcow brother i think you are here for genuine learning so don't get misled by Ignoramuses like wing and objectively look at his sloganeerism and lack of intellectual/educated responses.

Dude, what you claim(not even right) were nothing more than a cherry on a pie. What's more of a reference, a Hadith or a verse from the Quran?

My actual responds were verses DIRECTLY FROM the Quran. And since he couldn't find responds to the words of God, he started heating up(throwing personal insults). But I guess you didn't read the prev page?

...? Why are you trying to pull someone to "your side"? Let ppl think for their own, from every possible angle, not from a narrow/closed mind. And YOU are talking about intellectual? Intellectual...is starting wars over mere fairy tales (some if not most hadiths) for more than 1400 years, and up to this day neither side came to an educated response? There are NO SIDES in actual islam, to prove my point:

Sahih InternationalAnd hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided.

3:104

to top

Sahih InternationalAnd let there be [arising] from you a nation inviting to [all that is] good, enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong, and those will be the successful.

3:105

to top

Sahih InternationalAnd do not be like the ones who became divided and differed after the clear proofs had come to them. And those will have a great punishment.

3:106

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Sahih InternationalOn the Day [some] faces will turn white and [some] faces will turn black. As for those whose faces turn black, [to them it will be said], "Did you disbelieve after your belief? Then taste the punishment for what you used to reject."

3:107

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Sahih International

But as for those whose faces will turn white, [they will be] within the mercy of Allah . They will abide therein eternally.

If Shia was the origin as you claim, why is there an addition to shahada(1 of the 5 pillars) concerning Ali? Yet Ali's name is not mentioned in the quran, LET ALONE FOLLOW HIM.

Allah has been clear on what to follow, all of them mentioned by name. So pls, don't start with your deluded signs from the quran. They come from a narrow mind, even if you do not notice. Perfect example(starting to talk in circles here....) :

Surah Al-Ma'ida, Ayah 19:

"The Jews say, ‘Allah’s hand is tied up.’ Tied up be their hands, and cursed be they for what they say! Rather, His hands are wide open: He bestows as He wishes. Surely many of them will be increased by what has been sent to you from your Lord in rebellion and unfaith, and We have cast enmity and hatred amongst them until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they ignite the flames of war, Allah puts them out. They seek to cause corruption on the earth, and Allah does not like the agents of corruption."

Now tell me, what SANE person would refer THIS to prayer? This can only be seen from a narrow minded POV...I can see what you're getting at, but I have different angles. I honestly Laughed out Loud.

If you didn't figure what it actually means, here goes:

Nobody can see Allah, that is common knowledge...so the jews were talking in a figure of speech. Essentialy meaning: 'Allah is stingy' i.e What's a stingy man? Someone who's hand(singular, i'll get back on this) is "tied" up. [Notice] The jews are refering to 1 single hand here, yet what shia refers with prayer concerns both. This is a reference to the subject of the title, meaning "meal" NOT prayer as you saw from your only POV.

Did I have to explain something THIS simple? So if you can't figure out something like this, I suggest you you start seeing things from a different angle. And if this came from your actual scholars, then.....lol nuff said

Jaysro · August 18, 2012

I'm so happy this conversation has gone this far without anyone giving up like it had been the case for 1300 years.

“Sometimes people hold a core belief that is very strong. When they are

presented with evidence that works against that belief, the new

evidence cannot be accepted. It would create a feeling that is

extremely uncomfortable, called cognitive dissonance. And because it

is so important to protect the core belief, they will rationalize,

ignore and even deny anything that doesn't fit in with the core belief.”

Frantz Fanon

Muhammad Ibrahim · August 18, 2012

@wing the brother wrote with references and your respond with wild conjecture and incoherent reasoning sprinkled with populist slogans...any educated person will infer that you are either too illiterate and/or bigoted to even fathom his arguments
@coldcow brother i think you are here for genuine learning so don't get misled by Ignoramuses like wing and objectively look at his sloganeerism and lack of intellectual/educated responses.

Pretty much. He flat out said that he doesn't follow the Quran, and that Sunnis deviated Islam but it's no big deal.

Wing · August 18, 2012

Pretty much. He flat out said that he doesn't follow the Quran, and that Sunnis deviated Islam but it's no big deal.

Deaf, dumb and blind - so they will not return.

Unless you have answers to my questions(from the Quran), I suggest you think twice before you make that claim.

Enjoy~

AliHussainFaraji · August 18, 2012

AliHussainFaraji, please post your stuff on this forum and thread: http://forum.bodybui...php?t=143849331
There is a Sunni brother there that is very knowledgeable and I'd like to see what he has to say. It could be that you were only speaking with Sunnis that didn't know much and panicked.
I'd post it, but I haven't posted on that forum in so long I can't remember the password. Also, I can't really provide a defense to the arguments to make, as I'm not as familiar with them as you. If you think you can defend it with him, I think it would be best if you posted it.

lol The BB forum? Alright, I can make an account and post it there (might take a few days to do so) or you can make an account and post the OP there. Then if there are legitimate replies you want me to respond to you can PM me the username and password here and I'll take over. Which one sounds good to you?

Update: I also posted it on two Sunni forums yesterday. On both accounts the only replies I got were profanity.

I like to think of myself the same. Segregating ourselves into groups on causes us to look more and more at our differences than our similarities.

We're not segregating ourselves from anything. We don't say we are Shia rather than we are Muslim. The only time the word Shia is used is to differentiate from the false beliefs of the created sects. We are the only ones who follow the Quran 100% and follow the authenticated Sunnah 100%. We practice the Islam the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) practiced, before the deviations of others. The word 'Shia' means follower. Shia Muslim is just another way of saying real Muslim (i.e. follower of Islam).

Surah Al-Qasas, Ayah 15:

"And he (Moses) went into the city at a time when people (of the city) were not watching, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his Shia and the other being his enemy, and the one who was of his Shia cried out to him for help against the one who was of his enemy. So Moses hit him with his fist, whereupon he expired. He said, ‘This is of Satan’s doing. Indeed he is an enemy, manifestly misguiding.’"

Surah As-Saaffat, Ayah 83:

"And most surely Ibraham was among the Shia of him (i.e. Noah)"

A person can call himself a Muslim instead of a Sunni all he wants, that doesn't make it true. It's not what you call yourself, it's what you believe. If you believe that Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman were the successors of the Prophet (pbuh), if you don't want believe the Ahlul Bayt are perfect, if you do Wudu contrary to the Quran, etc., then you're a Sunni. A Christian who believes in the Trinity, believes drinking alcohol is halal and does not believe in the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) can also call himself a Muslim, that doesn't make it true.

Pretty much. He flat out said that he doesn't follow the Quran, and that Sunnis deviated Islam but it's no big deal.

He's not worth your reply brother. I was all for humoring him until he started blatantly saying it's no big deal to not follow the Quran.

Surah Ya Sin:

{7} "The word has certainly become due against most of them, so they will not have faith."

{8} "Indeed We have put iron collars around their necks, which are up to the chins, so their heads are upturned."

{9} "And We have put a barrier before them and a barrier behind them, then We have blind-folded them, so they do not see."

{10} "It is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not have faith."

{11} "You can only warn someone who follows the Reminder(Quran) and fears the All-beneficent in secret; so give him the good news of forgiveness and a noble reward."

Edited August 18, 2012 by AliHussainFaraji

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