Wudhu 3rd Time Haram?

[Dawud1UK]

Salam alejkum,

What if a person feels the need to wash his face or arms thrice in order to be satisfied that all of his face or arm had been covered?

What is meant by "As regards to which washing should be treated as the first" and the rest of rule 254. as surely you begin doing Wudhu with your niyyat at the start and remind yourself throughout so how would it work?

In Washing the face and arms, water must flow over them, even if with the help of the hand, but rinsing is not enough. The first time is wajeb and the second time is mustahab and the third time is Haram, (forbidden)

(http://www.islamic-l...yammumGhusl.htm)

254. * While performing Wudhu, it is obligatory to wash the face and the hands once, and it is recommended to wash them twice. Washing them three or more times is haraam. As regards to which washing should be treated as the first, it will depend upon wa shing the face and hand thoroughly, leaving no room for precaution, with the niyyat of Wudhu. So, if he pours water on his face ten times with the intention of the first washing, there is no harm, but when he will then wash with the niyyat of Wudhu, it will be called the first time. Thus, he can go on pouring water on his face several times, and in the final wash, make the niyyat of Wudhu. But if he follows this procedure, then the face and the hands should be washed once only, as an obligatory precaution .

(http://www.al-islam....laws/wudhu.html)

Thanks.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Dawud1UK

[dawudi]

Haram is a very strong term. Why would you do wudhu for a third time other than out of caution or necessity? It doesn't make sense to me. :wacko: You should find out how this ruling was derived.

[raficsulejmanovic]

This just my personal interpretation of this issue.

As analogy, you wash your car throughly first time it's all spic & span. V Good.

Then you wash it again. Good.

Then you wash it again. What the heck for?

That's what it meant in relation to > "So, if he pours water on his face ten times with the intention of the first washing, ..."

[Abbas]

Salam Alaikum

What if a person feels the need to wash his face or arms thrice in order to be satisfied that all of his face or arm had been covered?

If you require a third washing to ensure that all the face or arm is washed properly, then it is all actually one wash.

"One wash" involves as much washing required to ensure that water has reached all of the face/arm.

What is meant by "As regards to which washing should be treated as the first" and the rest of rule 254. as surely you begin doing Wudhu with your niyyat at the start and remind yourself throughout so how would it work?

Not everything you do after the niyyah of Wudhu is necessarily a part of Wudhu. So the rule addresses this, and at the end it is clarified that anybody who uses water more than necessary should only wash once as obligatory precaution.

[truefaith]

any authentic hadith to show hy wash to times only ?

[Nader Zaveri]

(salam)

(bismillah)

According to hadeeth, when doing wudu' do not do three times. One time is fard (obligatory), two times is sunnah and the third time according to hadeeth and scholars is bid`ah (innovation).

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From Abee `Abd Allaah (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) said: ‘al-Wudoo’: once is farD; (obligatory), twice is not rented (i.e it is Sunnah), and the third is bid`ah'

Source:

al-Toosi, Tahdheeb al-Ahkaam, vol. 1, pg. 81, hadeeth # 61

Here is what al-Toosi says in his two fiqh books:

æ ÇáÝÑÖ Ýí ÇáæÖæÁ ãÑÉ ãÑÉ æÇÍÏÉ Ýí ÇáÃÚÖÇÁ ÇáãÛÓæáÉ æ ÇáããÓæÍÉ¡ æ ÇáËÇäíÉ ÓäÉ Ýí ÇáãÛÓæáÉ áÇ ÛíÑ¡ æ ÇáËÇáËÉ ÈÏÚÉ¡

And the obligatory in al-Wudoo’ is one time washing and wiping the organs, and twice is sunnah for washing and not for other, and three (times) is bid`ah

Source:

al-Toosi, al-Mabsoot, vol. 1, pg. 23

ãÓÃáÉ 38: ÇáÝÑÖ Ýí ÛÓá ÇáÃÚÖÇÁ ãÑÉ æÇÍÏÉ¡

æ ÇËäÊÇä ÓäÉ¡ æ ÇáËÇáËÉ ÈÏÚÉ.

Ruling 38: FarD in ghusl is one time, two times is sunnah, and three times is bid`ah

Source:

al-Toosi, al-Khilaaf, vol. 1, pg. 87, ruling # 38

According to al-Toosi in his al-Khilaaf, he quotes al-Shaafi` saying that doing it thrice is sunnah.

æ ÞÇá ÇáÔÇÝÚí: ÇáÝÑÖ æÇÍÏ¡ æ ÇËäÊÇä ÃÝÖá¡ æ ÇáÓäÉ ËáÇËÉ

al-Shaafi` said: Once is obligatory, twice is better, and thrice is sunnah

And al-Toosi says according to some of them (the Sunnis), they say three time is waajib (mandatory). Which means doing three times is a Sunni thing.

Here is what al-Hilli says in his al-Mukhtalif al-Shee`ah:

ãÓÃáÉ: æ Ýí ÇáËÇáËÉ ÞæáÇä: ÇáÔíÎ «2»¡ æ ÇÈä ÈÇÈæíå [1] «4»¡ æ ÇÈä ÅÏÑíÓ

«5» æ ÃßËÑ ÚáãÇÆäÇ Ãäø ÇáËÇáËÉ ÈÏÚÉ¡ æ Èå ÞÇá: ÃÈæ ÇáÕáÇÍ¡ ÞÇá: áÇ íÌæÒ ÊËáíË ÇáÛÓá ÝÇä ËáøË ÈØá ÇáæÖæÁ

Ruling: And about thrice: Sayings of al-Shaykh (al-Toosi), Ibn Baabuwayh (al-Sadooq), Ibn Idrees, and many of our `ulemaa that the third (time) is bid`ah. Aboo al-Salaah said: It is not permissible to triple your washing, and if you triple it, you have voided the al-Wudoo’

Source:

al-Hilli, Mukhtalif al-Shee`ah, vol. 1, pg. 285

al-Shaheed al-Thaani also believed it to be bid`ah in his book Masaalik al-Afhaam, vol. 1, pg. 40; and Muhammad bin `Alee al-`Aamili in his Madaarik al-Ahkaam, vol. 1, pg. 234.

(salam)

Edited November 16, 2012 by Nader Zaveri

[truefaith]

Thanks for references. From a purely Aql point of view can anyone conjecture why third time is haram? Islam doesn't forbid anything without a good reason I believe. Anyway I'm just trying to understand whether this rule has SD one intellectual basis or was it just considered bidah to differentiate us from Sunnis.

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

The count of which washing of Wudu you are doing depends on one's intention. So you may splash and place water on your face/arms 1000 times with the niyya of the first washing and it will only be the first washing. If that water isn't sufficient, you may add more water intending it as continuing the first washing. After that, you may intend a second washing and add more water.

So after the second complete washing and getting all parts, that is complete and you are not to intend a third washing.

Ýí ÇãÇä Çááå

[rotten_coconut]

How about wash & wipe, i.e. you place water on your elbow once and then wipe from the elbow to your fingers to ensure the water reaches everywhere in your arms?

When the ahadith say wash, does it mean only wash is permissible or you can add the wipe as the wash & wipe described above as long as the wash doesn't exceed twice?

[truefaith]

Darul Islam .....thanks brother but u r just repeating the same thing. Did not answer my question as to why third time is haraam according to our sources while Sunnis recommend it. I'm just conjecturing on the basis of rationality Why these schools differ so much in this regard because they basically void each others wudu. Anyway this seems to be based solely on hadith as I believe Quran does not specify how many times is allowed or not ...

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

Darul Islam .....thanks brother but u r just repeating the same thing. Did not answer my question as to why third time is haraam according to our sources while Sunnis recommend it. I'm just conjecturing on the basis of rationality Why these schools differ so much in this regard because they basically void each others wudu. Anyway this seems to be based solely on hadith as I believe Quran does not specify how many times is allowed or not ...

The real answer: cause the Imam [as] said so.

I haven't actually seen the sunni hadith on this, but their hadith are usually the companions just observing without really asking questions. Perhaps they saw him [sawa] splash water thrice for what was intended as a single washing and believed it was 3 separate washings. Allahu a`lam.

We void a lot of each others' rulings... Also, this doesn't void wudu as far as I know. If you intend 3 washes, you have committed a sin, but the wudu is still valid, as I understand it. The topic of halal/haram and sihha/butlan are unrelated and separate.

Ýí ÇãÇä Çááå

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Splashing whatever number of times and intending one? I read ahadees there is a limit of water that is to be used for wudhu.

[Abdul Qaim]

Splashing whatever number of times and intending one? I read ahadees there is a limit of water that is to be used for wudhu.

Can you quote some, akhee?