Beliefs Of The Jahiliyya Arabs

[Kaniz e Zahra]

1. Are you advocating that the Imam (aj) is all-hearing and all-seeing?

2. The difference between asking an imam who has passed away and personally asking an imam who is alive is that in the first case you implicitly assume that he can help you outside his temporality while in the latter case you accept this limitation for him. In the case of a normal human being, it is even more clear. This human being can only personally help in certain limited ways. In this way, near omnipotence is not assumed for him as it is in the case of istighatha to imams who have passed on.

3. Please read the following book when you get a chance: http://www.amazon.co...&keywords=logic

Not all hearing and seeing like Allah but He can hear and see as much as Allah wants.And i am not saying this Imam(as) Himself says that He is vigilant on His followers.

I did n't accept or put limitations on them,i was asking his views through different dimensions.

You people base your points on those verses which says ''don't call to other than Allah''.So how does it matter if you are calling a dead or alive for help but you are calling to other than Him,if you take these verses in such context,which they are not.

[Guest Jebreil]

(bismillah)

(salam)

al-irshad

Because we have a du'a in with that formulation in Shaykh Saduq's man la yahduruhu al faqih, which is all the hadith from which he ruled as hujja between him and Allah. The difference is that it replaces Ya Amir al Mumineen! with Ya Wali Allah! and it addresses any of the Immaculates.

The sanad is defensible too.

(wasalam)

[kadhim]

Ok if you meet Him face to face and say 'oh Imam(as) help me,won't be it calling to other than Allah'?

The verses you people literally apply is a wrong direction because you need help of even ordinary mortal beings on every stage of life,let alone Masoomeen(as).

No, because it is a certain, understood part of this worldly reality that we rely on others here with us and that those who are physically alive have the power, within natural constraints, to give aid to us.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

No, because it is a certain, understood part of this worldly reality that we rely on others here with us and that those who are physically alive have the power, within natural constraints, to give aid to us.

So how do those verses apply which you quote against Tawassul if it is a neccessity of life to call people for help? They are still other than Allah.

[89jghur32]

(bismillah)

(salam)

al-irshad

Because we have a du'a in with that formulation in Shaykh Saduq's man la yahduruhu al faqih, which is all the hadith from which he ruled as hujja between him and Allah. The difference is that it replaces Ya Amir al Mumineen! with Ya Wali Allah! and it addresses any of the Immaculates.

The sanad is defensible too.

(wasalam)

Could you post it? I don't have a problem with what you posted in the original post I responded to, but that didn't seem like much of a du`a to me. I'm curious to see what specifically you are referring to.

So how do those verses apply which you quote against Tawassul if it is a neccessity of life to call people for help? They are still other than Allah.

You repeatedly ignore the context of those verses. Do you believe that you can do sajda to ghayrullah? An alam for example?

Edited August 11, 2012 by al-Irshad

[Kaniz e Zahra]

You repeatedly ignore the context of those verses. Do you believe that you can do sajda to ghayrullah? An alam for example?

Sajda is for Allah alone but if He or Masoom(as) says then we can't object but we never saw Masoomeen(as) promoting this practice among people.So no.

[kadhim]

So how do those verses apply which you quote against Tawassul if it is a neccessity of life to call people for help? They are still other than Allah.

I didn't quote anything. It's good to distinguish individual human beings.

Second, the context of these verses (duh) was prayers, dua'a.

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

(salam)

al-irshad

Because we have a du'a in with that formulation in Shaykh Saduq's man la yahduruhu al faqih, which is all the hadith from which he ruled as hujja between him and Allah. The difference is that it replaces Ya Amir al Mumineen! with Ya Wali Allah! and it addresses any of the Immaculates.

The sanad is defensible too.

(wasalam)

(wasalam) / (wasalam)

Can you post those ahadeeth and their isnads?

Ýí ÇãÇä Çááå

[Kaniz e Zahra]

I didn't quote anything. It's good to distinguish individual human beings.

Second, the context of these verses (duh) was prayers, dua'a.

Call is call,it did n't say word 'prayer' in Ayat.

[Guest Jebreil]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Ziyarat al Jami`at al Kabira, itself, including its farewell, al Wedaa`.

ÍÏøËäÇ Úáí Èä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÚãÑÇä ÇáÏÞøÇÞ ÑÖí Çááøå Úäå; æãÍãøÏ Èä ÃÍãÏ ÇáÓäÇäí; æÚáí Èä ÚÈÏÇááøå ÇáæÑøÇÞ; æÇáÍÓíä Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã Èä ÃÍãÏ Èä åÔÇã ÇáãßÊøÈ¡ ÞÇáæÇ: ÍÏøËäÇ ãÍãøÏ Èä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááøå ÇáßæÝí æÃÈæ ÇáÍÓíä ÇáÃÓÏí ÞÇáæÇ: ÍÏøËäÇ ãÍãøÏ Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá Çáãßøí ÇáÈÑãßí ÞÇá: ÍÏøËäÇ ãæÓì Èä ÚãÑÇä ÇáäÎÚí ÞÇá: ÞáÊ áÚáí Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä Úáí Èä ãæÓì Èä ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä Èä Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã:

Úáøãäí íÇ Èä ÑÓæá Çááøå! ÞæáÇð ÃÞæáå ÈáíÛÇð ßÇãáÇð ÅÐÇ ÒÑÊ æÇÍÏÇð ãäßã

This sanad is in `uyun akhbar al rida. Shaykh Saduq - God's mercy upon him - reported this in `uyoon (from which Shaykh Tusi seems to have narrated in tahdhib al ahkam) and man la yahduruhu al faqih, in bab al mazaar.

In man la yahduruhu al faqih, the sanad is shorter:

Ñæì ãÍãøÏ Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá ÇáÈÑãßí ÞÇá: ÍÏøËäÇ ãæÓì Èä ÚÈÏÇááøå ÇáäÎÚí¡ ÞÇá: ÞáÊ áÚáí Èä ãÍãøÏ... Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã

It should be noted that apart from the Shaykh's mashaayikh, al-kufi and al-barmaki have tawthiq and musa b `imran has much evidence in his favour with none against. Though, in man la yahduruhu al faqih, as can be seen, the name has been put as musa b `abdillah, but these may still be one and the same person associated with parent or grandparent, or a mistake in scribing. Either way, musa b `imran has evidence in favour of him, reiled upon in various places by various persons.

For a more complete analysis - in a Persian article with a lot of Arabic quotes from the past scholars - I link Sayyid al Milani's discourse on the sanad of this ziyara: http://www.al-milani...id=110&pgid=853

As for the issue of this dua from the Immaculate, the first Majlisi (ra) states - apparently after seeing Imam al-`Asr (as) - in his rawdat ul muttaqin:

æÇáÍÇÕá Ãäøå áÇ Ôßø Ãäø åÐå ÇáÒíÇÑÉ ãä ÃÈí ÇáÍÓä ÇáåÇÏí ÓáÇã Çááøå Úáíå ÈÊÞÑíÑ ÇáÕÇÍÈ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã æÃäøåÇ Ãßãá ÇáÒíÇÑÇÊ æÃÍÓäåÇ¡ Èá ÈÚÏ Êáß ÇáÑÄíÇ ßäÊ ÃßËÑ ÇáÃæÞÇÊ ÃÒæÑ ÇáÃÆãøÉ Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã ÈåÐå ÇáÒíÇÑÉ Ýí ÇáÚÊÈÇÊ ÇáÚÇáíÇÊ¡ ãÇ ÒÑÊåã ÅáÇø ÈåÐå ÇáÒíÇÑÉ

As for the matn and sanad together, the second Majlisi (ra) has called it:

ÃÕóÍõø ÇáÒøíÇÑÇÊ ÓóäóÏÇð

ÃÚóãõøåÇ ãæÑÏÇð

ÃÝÕóÍåÇ áÝÙÇð

ÅÈáðÛõåÇ ãÚäÇð

ÃÚáÇåÇ ÔÃäÇð

According to al-Milani, many scholars have referred to it for evidence of a belief. Apart from the illustrious Shaykh Saduq, the names include: Shaykh Hurr al Amili, Allama Hilli, al-Majlisayn, Mirza al-Qummi, Shaykh Ansari, Allama Bahrani, Shaykh Bahai, Fayd al-Kashani, Wahid al-Bihbahani, Allama Tabatabai.

It is telling that Shaykh Saduq narrates this in two different books, that he places it in his "fatwa" book, man la yahduruhu al faqih, despite that he was known for admitting sahw al nabi and was hard on ghuluw. Anyone who takes a look at this du'a revels in the lofty heights of the Immaculates - peace and blessings upon them.

In the last section - quite short - after a very, very, long list of praise for the Immaculates, the prayer says:

Ya Wali Allah! Indeed there are sins between God - the mighty and tremendous - and me, that cannot be removed except by your pleasure; so by the one who has trusted you with His secret, and has made you shepherds in the affairs of His creation; and has conformed obeying you with obeying Him; seek the pardon of my sins; and you are my interceders so truly I obey you; He who obeys you indeed obeys God; He who defies you indeed defies God; He who loves you indeed loves God; He who hates you indeed hates God; Ya Allah! If I had known interceders closer to you than Muhammad and his Household, the virtuous and pious Imams, I would have made them my interceders...

And in the al Wedaa` section:

My father, my mother, my family, my wealth be your sacrifice! Put me in your care, and bring me into your faction, and enter me into your intercession, and remember me by your Lord...

It has been instructed (I don't know by whom) to begin the du`a with 100 takbir, probably to restrain the person from ghuluw when seeing the mesmerising beauty and staggering brilliance of the Prophet and his Household. This rationale is provided by the first Majlisi and Muhaddith Qummi.

For those who want the Ziyara itself - without al Wedaa`, it seems - please click below. I won't judge the translation, but I did find one problematic example (the above translation provided in this post is my own attempt. I consulted the Arabic original, a Persian and an English translation, plus the Lane Classical dictionary to produce it). Anyhow, the Arabic is available too: http://www.ziaraat.o...amia_kabeer.php

We should be wary of condemning or drawing grating analogies for our community. Scholars don't hold all truth, but scholarship is highly revered from the lips of the Prophet and the Household. It would be advisable if we tread carefully in untried territory, and even let experts tread lightly.

ÌÇÁ ÑÌá Åáí ÇáäÈí Õáí Çááå Úáíå æ Âáå ÝÞÇá: “íÇ ÑÓæá Çááå ãÇ ÇáÚáã¿” ÞÇá: “ÇáÇäÕÇÊ”¡ ÞÇá: “Ëã ãå¿” ÞÇá: “ÇáÇÓÊãÇÚ á唡 ÞÇá: “Ëã ãå¿” ÞÇá: “ÇáÍÝÙ á唡 ÞÇá: “Ëã ãå¿” ÞÇá: “ÇáÚãá È唡 ÞÇá: “Ëã ãå¿” ÞÇá: “Ëã äÔÑå”

A man asked the Prophet - upon him peace and blessings: “Apostle of God! What is knowledge?"

He said: “Silence.”

He asked: “What is next?”

He said: “Listening to it.”

He asked: “And what is next?”

He said: “Remembering it.”

He asked: “And what is next?”

He said: “Acting upon it.”

He asked: “And what is next?”

He said: “Spreading it.

may Allah forgive me - may He forgive us

(wasalam)

Edited August 11, 2012 by Jebreil

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Brother Jebreil MashAllah great post,may Allah increase your knowledge and efforts for the sake of Ahlebait(as).

[Ali Musaaa :)]

So basically the brother told you that Angel of Death has agents because I asked the same question to a scholar once and that's the answer I got.

No, he said that the Angle of Death is not bound by time like we are.

[Nader Zaveri]

(salam)

(bismillah)

Why would you need to ask someone to ask Allaah for you? Please watch this video (Watch the video from 50:20 - end)

Another thing to mention regarding this Ayah. As we all know, Allaah uses "we" all the time in the Qur'aan, but Allaah specifically in the ayah about doing du`aa to him (Surah al-Baqarah (2): Verse 186), he doesn't use the "we". Instead Allaah uses the first person singular form 7 times in this short ayah. This in it of itself should be a literal ayah (sign) for us. Where else in the Qur'aan does Allaah use the first person singular 7 times in the Qur'aan in such a short ayah?

æóÅöÐóÇ ÓóÃóáóßó ÚöÈóÇÏöí Úóäöøí ÝóÅöäöøí ÞóÑöíÈñ ÃõÌöíÈõ ÏóÚúæóÉó ÇáÏóøÇÚö ÅöÐóÇ ÏóÚóÇäö ÝóáúíóÓúÊóÌöíÈõæÇú áöí æóáúíõÄúãöäõæÇú Èöí áóÚóáóøåõãú íóÑúÔõÏõæäó

(salam)

Edited August 11, 2012 by Nader Zaveri

[Haydar Husayn]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Ziyarat al Jami`at al Kabira, itself, including its farewell, al Wedaa`.

ÍÏøËäÇ Úáí Èä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÚãÑÇä ÇáÏÞøÇÞ ÑÖí Çááøå Úäå; æãÍãøÏ Èä ÃÍãÏ ÇáÓäÇäí; æÚáí Èä ÚÈÏÇááøå ÇáæÑøÇÞ; æÇáÍÓíä Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã Èä ÃÍãÏ Èä åÔÇã ÇáãßÊøÈ¡ ÞÇáæÇ: ÍÏøËäÇ ãÍãøÏ Èä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááøå ÇáßæÝí æÃÈæ ÇáÍÓíä ÇáÃÓÏí ÞÇáæÇ: ÍÏøËäÇ ãÍãøÏ Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá Çáãßøí ÇáÈÑãßí ÞÇá: ÍÏøËäÇ ãæÓì Èä ÚãÑÇä ÇáäÎÚí ÞÇá: ÞáÊ áÚáí Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä Úáí Èä ãæÓì Èä ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä Èä Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã:

Úáøãäí íÇ Èä ÑÓæá Çááøå! ÞæáÇð ÃÞæáå ÈáíÛÇð ßÇãáÇð ÅÐÇ ÒÑÊ æÇÍÏÇð ãäßã

This sanad is in `uyun akhbar al rida. Shaykh Saduq - God's mercy upon him - reported this in `uyoon (from which Shaykh Tusi seems to have narrated in tahdhib al ahkam) and man la yahduruhu al faqih, in bab al mazaar.

In man la yahduruhu al faqih, the sanad is shorter:

Ñæì ãÍãøÏ Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá ÇáÈÑãßí ÞÇá: ÍÏøËäÇ ãæÓì Èä ÚÈÏÇááøå ÇáäÎÚí¡ ÞÇá: ÞáÊ áÚáí Èä ãÍãøÏ... Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã

It should be noted that apart from the Shaykh's mashaayikh, al-kufi and al-barmaki have tawthiq and musa b `imran has much evidence in his favour with none against. Though, in man la yahduruhu al faqih, as can be seen, the name has been put as musa b `abdillah, but these may still be one and the same person associated with parent or grandparent, or a mistake in scribing. Either way, musa b `imran has evidence in favour of him, reiled upon in various places by various persons.

For a more complete analysis - in a Persian article with a lot of Arabic quotes from the past scholars - I link Sayyid al Milani's discourse on the sanad of this ziyara: http://www.al-milani...id=110&pgid=853

As for the issue of this dua from the Immaculate, the first Majlisi (ra) states - apparently after seeing Imam al-`Asr (as) - in his rawdat ul muttaqin:

æÇáÍÇÕá Ãäøå áÇ Ôßø Ãäø åÐå ÇáÒíÇÑÉ ãä ÃÈí ÇáÍÓä ÇáåÇÏí ÓáÇã Çááøå Úáíå ÈÊÞÑíÑ ÇáÕÇÍÈ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã æÃäøåÇ Ãßãá ÇáÒíÇÑÇÊ æÃÍÓäåÇ¡ Èá ÈÚÏ Êáß ÇáÑÄíÇ ßäÊ ÃßËÑ ÇáÃæÞÇÊ ÃÒæÑ ÇáÃÆãøÉ Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã ÈåÐå ÇáÒíÇÑÉ Ýí ÇáÚÊÈÇÊ ÇáÚÇáíÇÊ¡ ãÇ ÒÑÊåã ÅáÇø ÈåÐå ÇáÒíÇÑÉ

As for the matn and sanad together, the second Majlisi (ra) has called it:

ÃÕóÍõø ÇáÒøíÇÑÇÊ ÓóäóÏÇð

ÃÚóãõøåÇ ãæÑÏÇð

ÃÝÕóÍåÇ áÝÙÇð

ÅÈáðÛõåÇ ãÚäÇð

ÃÚáÇåÇ ÔÃäÇð

According to al-Milani, many scholars have referred to it for evidence of a belief. Apart from the illustrious Shaykh Saduq, the names include: Shaykh Hurr al Amili, Allama Hilli, al-Majlisayn, Mirza al-Qummi, Shaykh Ansari, Allama Bahrani, Shaykh Bahai, Fayd al-Kashani, Wahid al-Bihbahani, Allama Tabatabai.

It is telling that Shaykh Saduq narrates this in two different books, that he places it in his "fatwa" book, man la yahduruhu al faqih, despite that he was known for admitting sahw al nabi and was hard on ghuluw. Anyone who takes a look at this du'a revels in the lofty heights of the Immaculates - peace and blessings upon them.

In the last section - quite short - after a very, very, long list of praise for the Immaculates, the prayer says:

Ya Wali Allah! Indeed there are sins between God - the mighty and tremendous - and me, that cannot be removed except by your pleasure; so by the one who has trusted you with His secret, and has made you shepherds in the affairs of His creation; and has conformed obeying you with obeying Him; seek the pardon of my sins; and you are my interceders so truly I obey you; He who obeys you indeed obeys God; He who defies you indeed defies God; He who loves you indeed loves God; He who hates you indeed hates God; Ya Allah! If I had known interceders closer to you than Muhammad and his Household, the virtuous and pious Imams, I would have made them my interceders...

And in the al Wedaa` section:

My father, my mother, my family, my wealth be your sacrifice! Put me in your care, and bring me into your faction, and enter me into your intercession, and remember me by your Lord...

It has been instructed (I don't know by whom) to begin the du`a with 100 takbir, probably to restrain the person from ghuluw when seeing the mesmerising beauty and staggering brilliance of the Prophet and his Household. This rationale is provided by the first Majlisi and Muhaddith Qummi.

For those who want the Ziyara itself - without al Wedaa`, it seems - please click below. I won't judge the translation, but I did find one problematic example (the above translation provided in this post is my own attempt. I consulted the Arabic original, a Persian and an English translation, plus the Lane Classical dictionary to produce it). Anyhow, the Arabic is available too: http://www.ziaraat.o...amia_kabeer.php

We should be wary of condemning or drawing grating analogies for our community. Scholars don't hold all truth, but scholarship is highly revered from the lips of the Prophet and the Household. It would be advisable if we tread carefully in untried territory, and even let experts tread lightly.

ÌÇÁ ÑÌá Åáí ÇáäÈí Õáí Çááå Úáíå æ Âáå ÝÞÇá: “íÇ ÑÓæá Çááå ãÇ ÇáÚáã¿” ÞÇá: “ÇáÇäÕÇÊ”¡ ÞÇá: “Ëã ãå¿” ÞÇá: “ÇáÇÓÊãÇÚ á唡 ÞÇá: “Ëã ãå¿” ÞÇá: “ÇáÍÝÙ á唡 ÞÇá: “Ëã ãå¿” ÞÇá: “ÇáÚãá È唡 ÞÇá: “Ëã ãå¿” ÞÇá: “Ëã äÔÑå”

A man asked the Prophet - upon him peace and blessings: “Apostle of God! What is knowledge?"

He said: “Silence.”

He asked: “What is next?”

He said: “Listening to it.”

He asked: “And what is next?”

He said: “Remembering it.”

He asked: “And what is next?”

He said: “Acting upon it.”

He asked: “And what is next?”

He said: “Spreading it.

may Allah forgive me - may He forgive us

(wasalam)

Is this dua only meant to be said near the graves of the infallible?

Anyway, even accepting all this, it still falls far short of the modern practice of calling on the Imams from anywhere and asking them to perform miracles, as you would call on Allah to do. The dua you quoted limits itself to asking them to pray for our forgiveness (as is the case in all the verses from the Quran that people use to justify istighatha), and my guess is that it is only meant to be said at the grave of the infallible, where we at least have some proof that they can hear us (at least our salam anyway). It's also worth noting that Allah is actually addressed in this dua, and not left completely unmentioned.

The dua wouldn't really work if you replaced waliAllah by Allah, whereas the kind of duas I'm talking about would work just as well by doing so.

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

(bismillah)

(salam)

(wasalam)

]Ziyarat al Jami`at al Kabira, itself, including its farewell, al Wedaa`.

ÍÏøËäÇ Úáí Èä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÚãÑÇä ÇáÏÞøÇÞ ÑÖí Çááøå Úäå; æãÍãøÏ Èä ÃÍãÏ ÇáÓäÇäí; æÚáí Èä ÚÈÏÇááøå ÇáæÑøÇÞ; æÇáÍÓíä Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã Èä ÃÍãÏ Èä åÔÇã ÇáãßÊøÈ¡ ÞÇáæÇ: ÍÏøËäÇ ãÍãøÏ Èä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááøå ÇáßæÝí æÃÈæ ÇáÍÓíä ÇáÃÓÏí ÞÇáæÇ: ÍÏøËäÇ ãÍãøÏ Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá Çáãßøí ÇáÈÑãßí ÞÇá: ÍÏøËäÇ ãæÓì Èä ÚãÑÇä ÇáäÎÚí ÞÇá: ÞáÊ áÚáí Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä Úáí Èä ãæÓì Èä ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä Èä Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã:

Úáøãäí íÇ Èä ÑÓæá Çááøå! ÞæáÇð ÃÞæáå ÈáíÛÇð ßÇãáÇð ÅÐÇ ÒÑÊ æÇÍÏÇð ãäßã

This sanad is in `uyun akhbar al rida. Shaykh Saduq - God's mercy upon him - reported this in `uyoon (from which Shaykh Tusi seems to have narrated in tahdhib al ahkam) and man la yahduruhu al faqih, in bab al mazaar.

In man la yahduruhu al faqih, the sanad is shorter:

Ñæì ãÍãøÏ Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá ÇáÈÑãßí ÞÇá: ÍÏøËäÇ ãæÓì Èä ÚÈÏÇááøå ÇáäÎÚí¡ ÞÇá: ÞáÊ áÚáí Èä ãÍãøÏ... Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã

It should be noted that apart from the Shaykh's mashaayikh, al-kufi and al-barmaki have tawthiq and musa b `imran has much evidence in his favour with none against. Though, in man la yahduruhu al faqih, as can be seen, the name has been put as musa b `abdillah, but these may still be one and the same person associated with parent or grandparent, or a mistake in scribing. Either way, musa b `imran has evidence in favour of him, reiled upon in various places by various persons.

For a more complete analysis - in a Persian article with a lot of Arabic quotes from the past scholars - I link Sayyid al Milani's discourse on the sanad of this ziyara: http://www.al-milani...id=110&pgid=853

The chain is shorter in al-Faqih cause he truncated chains to make it easier to read, so you refer to his Mashahykha, which is the same chain he presents fully in `Uyun al-Akhbar.

Musa b. `Imran / Musa b. `Abdillah al-Nakha`i is majhool there are not enough qara'in to substantiate any tamdeeh for him or showing his riwayah maqbool. From what I saw from Sayed al-Milani's discussion, I did not read in details because my Farsi is not that good. There are a few people that seem to narrate from him:

1 - Muhammad b. Isma`il al-Barmaki

2 - Muhammad b. Abi `Abdillah al-Kufi

3 - Muhammad b. Ja`far al-Asadi al-Kufi

But the 2nd and 3rd narrator are the same person, so we only have 2 narrators

1 - Muhammad b. Isma`ail al-Barmaki

2 - Muhammad b. Ja`far al-Asadi

They don't narrate from Musa b. `Imran katheeran, so this doesn't give us much, nor does he - from what I have seen - narrate katheeran in general in the books by the 3 Muhammads [ra]. The other things that I think Sayyid Milani may be trying to do to strengthen him is his appearance in Kamil al-Ziyarah and Tafseer al-Qummi - which are not indicators either (the first regards, if anyone, only Ibn Qooluwayh's mashyaaikh; the second being weak in tareeq and of interpolation by unknown authors).

So, Musa b. `Imran al-Nakha`i remains majhool al-haal. The only things going for him is his appearance in al-Faqih, but that is one indicator and not enough. That is if you even take external qara'in to strengthen majaheel, otherwise he's majhool without argument.

If someone doesn't even accept the taraddi or tarahhum of Saduq [ra] in the first place, there's really no way to strengthen this chain.

(wasalam)

(wasalam)

I'm not going to outright call istighaatha shirk, as the intentions of those who do it is other than that. But there are hadith that indicate things against it, as well as the zaahir of the Qur'an. There are, as of shown yet, no real mu`tabar hadith about the Imams [as] teaching or endorsing this practice. For these reasons I am uncomfortable with it and air on precaution. I also do not think this practice is necessary or makes you a better Imami or anything. You've seen and read time and time again what others who do not support this practice post, and I make recourse to their examples about other types of tawassul.

As a personal aside, when I read ziyaraat that include things I change the wording for myself. I may skip it as well.

Example:

ÇÔÝÚ áí ÚäÏ Çááå ----> Çäí ÇÓÃá Çááå Çäå íÔÝÚ áí ÈÍÞß æãÞÇãß

æÇááå ÃÚáã

Ýí ÇãÇä Çááå

[Nader Zaveri]

(salam)

(bismillah)

It should be noted that apart from the Shaykh's mashaayikh, al-kufi and al-barmaki have tawthiq and musa b `imran has much evidence in his favour with none against. Though, in man la yahduruhu al faqih, as can be seen, the name has been put as musa b `abdillah, but these may still be one and the same person associated with parent or grandparent, or a mistake in scribing. Either way, musa b `imran has evidence in favour of him, reiled upon in various places by various persons.

For a more complete analysis - in a Persian article with a lot of Arabic quotes from the past scholars - I link Sayyid al Milani's discourse on the sanad of this ziyara: http://www.al-milani...id=110&pgid=853

Any which way you want to cut it, if it is Moosa b. `Abd Allaah or Moosa b. `Imraan, at the end of the day he is majhool (unknown) not to mention the majhool mashayakh of al-Sadooq (but that is a different story).

A quick pointer, when a scholar has to make a 5+ page analysis of a sanad, then you can bet that the narration is actually weak, and he is just jumping through hoops and pulling at straws in order to authenticate it. The same goes for if they have to take forever in order to authenticate an individual, they are jumping through hoops.

And if the scholar then goes and says, "well such and such scholars" say this narration is authentic, then you know he himself realizes that these arguments are not strong, so he is hoping to use the "big name" scholars as a way to beef up his argument. This methodology is very common with scholars.

(salam)

Edited August 11, 2012 by Nader Zaveri

[The Green Knight]

However, Sayed Fadhlallah didn't use this methodology. Innit?

Oh my, all those deceptive jahil scholars. They been keeping us ignorant man. :(

[Guest Jebreil]

(bismillah)

(salam)

If Shaykh Saduq - with his stringency as well as his belief in sahw al nabi - finds it of such reliability to narrate in his al faqih, this shows that it has hujjiyya, regardless of whether one accepts it or not. Therefore, one ought to tread lightly. What we have seen here in this thread and elsewhere has been anything but that. Akhi, Haydar Husayn, forgive me, but I will have to indicate this thread title of yours as an example.

Calling the Imams at the shrines, knowing that they can hear and respond by God's leave, requesting their pleasure, their intercession and even their help to bring us into their faction (lit. hizb) has good evidence. If the evidence does not suit someone's taste, it does not permit condemning those who rely on it even in the slightest.

Nader is also wrong to think that al-Milani puts 5 pages to a sanad. It is one page devoted to the sanad analysis. As for his dismissive attitude to al-Milani, it is a show of desperation. I see careful analysis of a solid rijali faqih on the one hand, and a dismissive, arrogant attitude on the other. The second Majlisi relied on it, and this is the learned man to whose gradings Nader often refers. What a shame.

It is also unfortunate that people did not esteem al-Milani's deep research into the matter, quoting where various notable scholars rely on the du`a for certain beliefs. The cream of our fuqaha do not rely on weak du`a for `aqida.

As for musa b imran being majhul. First and foremost, unless explicit rijali grading is all that we are going by, that fact does not undermine anything, though it is certainly not a plus either. If Shaykh Saduq has narrated this in man la yahduruhu al faqih, that is a big, even if not conclusive, plus for the matn.

Yet, for the rajul - the narrator - himself, then he has been relied on 80 times by Saduq in various places and seems to have been included amongst his mashayikh, according to Muhammad al-Sanad, a researcher in Qom.

According to Muhammad al-Sanad:

He has narrated from:

hasan al nawfali - thiqa (uncle of musa b imran, narrating 200 hadith from him)

ibrahim b hakam b zahir

husayn b said ahwazi - thiqa jalil

safwan b mihran jammal - thiqa

b abi umayr

hasan b mahbub

He has been narrated from by:

muhammad b ja'far al kufi al asadi - thiqa

muhammad b yahya al-attar - thiqa

his ^ father

muhammad b musa b mutawakkil - according to him: his tawthiq is preferred

ali b ahmad al daqqaq - taraddi of Saduq

ali b abdillah al warraq - taraddi of Saduq

muhammad b ahmad sinani - thiqa

muhammad b ismail al barmaki - thiqa

He seems to be well-supported by other narrators too.

I cannot see any result but that nobody is blamed - and may even be praised - for reciting this du`a and the like of it at the shrines. Everything else is just personal preference.

(wasalam)

Edited August 11, 2012 by Jebreil

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

According to Muhammad al-Sanad:

He has narrated from:

hasan al nawfali - thiqa (uncle of musa b imran, narrating 200 hadith from him)

ibrahim b hakam b zahir

husayn b said ahwazi - thiqa jalil

safwan b mihran jammal - thiqa

b abi umayr

hasan b mahbub

He has been narrated from by:

muhammad b ja'far al kufi al asadi - thiqa

muhammad b yahya al-attar - thiqa

his ^ father

muhammad b musa b mutawakkil - according to him: his tawthiq is preferred

ali b ahmad al daqqaq - taraddi of Saduq

ali b abdillah al warraq - taraddi of Saduq

muhammad b ahmad sinani - thiqa

muhammad b ismail al barmaki - thiqa

He seems to be well-supported by other narrators too.

Are these all the narrators that narrate directly from him? And by which name of the narrator's b. Imran or b. `Abdullah?

I cannot see any result but that nobody is blamed - and may even be praised - for reciting this du`a and the like of it at the shrines. Everything else is just personal preference.

(wasalam)

(wasalam)

Sure, this may show proof for asking for their intercession at their graves. I will look into this more, inshaa'Allah. But I think what needs to be addressed after that is:

- doing this from a distance

- doing it in the "O Imam cure me" way rather than the tame "Please intercede for me with Allah"

æÇááå ÃÚáã

Ýí ÇãÇä Çááå

[Haydar Husayn]

What is the objection to my thread title? All I did was extrapolate from the Quran certain practices of the Jahiliyya era Arabs, and made a passing comparison with modern Shia practices. As far as I can tell, nobody disagrees with me on what those Arabs did or believed, and nobody has really gone into detail about what exactly is so different about what Shias do nowadays.

Regarding the dua being quoted, I've already indicated why it falls short of proving the beliefs and practices I'm condemning, but even if it did, you would then have to explain how you reconcile it with the Quran.

[Islamic Salvation]

ÍÏøóËäí ÃÈí Ü ÑÍãå Çááå Ü Úä ÓÚϺ æãÍãøÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏó Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÚíÓì ¡ Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÃÈí ÚõãóíÑ Ü Úãøä ÑæÇå Ü "ÞÇá : ÞÇá ÃÈæ ÚÈÏÇááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: ÅÐÇ ÈóÚõÏóÊú ÈÃÍóÏößã ÇáÔøõÞøóÉ æäóÃÊú Èå ÇáÏøÇÑ ÝáíóÚáö ÃÚáì ãäÒáò áå ÝíÕáøí ÑóßÚÊíä æáíÄãøó ÈÇáÓøóáÇã Åáì ÞÈæÑäÇ ¡ ÝÅäøó Ðáß íÕíÑ ÅáíäÇ" .

Narrated to me my father and Sa'ad and Muhammad b. Yahya [all together] from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from Muhammad b. Abi Umayr from the one who narrated to him - who said: Abu Abdillah said: if it becomes too distant for you the journey, and whose home is far away, should climb to the highest position in his home, and pray a two Rakaat prayer, and should make Salaam towards our graves, for that reaches us.

Now what is said in the Salaam, if it includes, 'Ishfau li indallahi', considering the Salaam reaches them, and they will be granted power of Shafa'ah, is it shirk?, in that case Ibn Qulawayh and the Rijal he quotes in his Asanid are Mushrik, since he includes many Ziarah and Salaam that include such words.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Islamic Salvation

[Hannibal]

ÍÏóøËäí ÃÈí Ü ÑÍãå Çááå Ü Úä ÓÚϺ æãÍãøÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏó Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÚíÓì ¡ Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÃÈí ÚõãóíÑ Ü Úãøä ÑæÇå Ü "ÞÇá : ÞÇá ÃÈæ ÚÈÏÇááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: ÅÐÇ ÈóÚõÏóÊú ÈÃÍóÏößã ÇáÔõøÞóøÉ æäóÃÊú Èå ÇáÏøÇÑ ÝáíóÚáö ÃÚáì ãäÒáò áå ÝíÕáøí ÑóßÚÊíä æáíÄãóø ÈÇáÓóøáÇã Åáì ÞÈæÑäÇ ¡ ÝÅäóø Ðáß íÕíÑ ÅáíäÇ" .

Narrated to me my father and Sa'ad and Muhammad b. Yahya [all together] from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from Muhammad b. Abi Umayr from the one who narrated to him - who said: Abu Abdillah said: if it becomes too distant for you the journey, and whose home is far away, should climb to the highest position in his home, and pray a two Rakaat prayer, and should make Salaam towards our graves, for that reaches us.

Now what is said in the Salaam, if it includes, 'Ishfau li indallahi', considering the Salaam reaches them, and they will be granted power of Shafa'ah, is it shirk?, in that case Ibn Qulawayh and the Rijal he quotes in his Asanid are Mushrik, since he includes many Ziarah and Salaam that include such words.

Salam,

We do have hadiths that state that it is the angels that present them with our salams. However, so far, I haven't seen any mutabar traditions indicating that all salams that are sent are presented to them. So we can derive two preliminary conclusions:

1) The Imams don't actually hear, but there is an intermediary here. An angel goes and delivers the message.

--> In the lifetime of the Imams, people didn't need angels to deliver messages. You could just talk to them (air was sufficient to deliver your sound waves). If there was a distance, then letters were sent to the Imam. I'm sure in such a dire situation such as Karbala, Muslim ibn Aqeel (who knew the Imam better than the ghulat of today) could have resorted to the faster way by doing some kind of telepathy with the Imam instead of sending a letter if he truly believed the Imam could hear everything (this would have been the logical thing to do as it was a life or death type of crisis). So the fact that angels deliver the salams means that the Imam can't hear you directly and he doesn't have omniscience. Just like Karbala, he needs a delivery man (angel) to convey the message.

2) There is no authentic indicators that the salams and calls of everyone are presented to them.

--> Even if all salams are delivered, how do we know it is not delivered to them in a package (as opposed to individually) where the angel says "X number of people sent their salams to you" and the Imam says something like wa alaikum as-salam jami`an (ws to all) and the angels give them the reply. I'm not saying the latter is correct - Allahu Alam - but I don't see why this latter guess work should be rejected at the expense of the more popular guess work? At least this one doesn't ascribe near omniscience to the Imam, so it is more compatible with the Qur'anic message and thus more probable. Furthermore, it would be more compatible with #1 as #1 establishes that there is no omniscience. We have no indication that the Imam could read through millions of letters in 1 hour in their life times, so there isn't any reason to assume that they could do this when they are in another world.

So I will repeat myself, either way, the Imams don't sit and process millions of calls a second (they aren't google). If they couldn't do this during their lifetimes, I don't see why they should be able to do this when they are dead as brother Haydar Husayn put it.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Hannibal

[Islamic Salvation]

W. salaam

First, I have to correct my translation, it should be [since Muhammad b. Qulawayh is a known narrator from Sa'ad]

Narrated to me my father from Sa'ad and Muhammad b. Yahya [all together] from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from Muhammad b. Abi Umayr from the one who narrated to him - who said: Abu Abdillah said: if it becomes too distant for you the journey, and whose house is far away, should climb to the highest position in his home, and pray a two Rakaat prayer, and should make Salaam towards our graves, for that reaches us.

I agree that the Imams are not omniscient, nor are they all hearing, the Hadith says 'it reaches us', it is safe to assume that the salutations of the believers are delivered to them.

As to how the presenting is done, it is mere speculation, and whether it is general or specific is besides the point, all we know is that they recive our Salaams, and considering that this is in a different dimension, nothing prevents them from acquainting themselves with the condition of their followers.

[Hannibal]

W. salaam

First, I have to correct my translation, it should be [since Muhammad b. Qulawayh is a known narrator from Sa'ad]

Narrated to me my father from Sa'ad and Muhammad b. Yahya [all together] from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from Muhammad b. Abi Umayr from the one who narrated to him - who said: Abu Abdillah said: if it becomes too distant for you the journey, and whose house is far away, should climb to the highest position in his home, and pray a two Rakaat prayer, and should make Salaam towards our graves, for that reaches us.

I agree that the Imams are not omniscient, nor are they all hearing, the Hadith says 'it reaches us', it is safe to assume that the salutations of the believers are delivered to them.

As to how the presenting is done, it is mere speculation, and whether it is general or specific is besides the point, all we know is that they recive our Salaams, and considering that this is in a different dimension, nothing prevents them from acquainting themselves with the condition of their followers.

How do you understand the traditions that say the angels "deliver it to us" (`aradna) or they are simply "delivered to us" which again implies some kind of intermediary.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Hannibal

[Follower]

--> In the lifetime of the Imams, people didn't need angels to deliver messages. You could just talk to them (air was sufficient to deliver your sound waves). If there was a distance, then letters were sent to the Imam. I'm sure in such a dire situation such as Karbala, Muslim ibn Aqeel (who knew the Imam better than the ghulat of today) could have resorted to the faster way by doing some kind of telepathy with the Imam instead of sending a letter if he truly believed the Imam could hear everything (this would have been the logical thing to do as it was a life or death type of crisis). So the fact that angels deliver the salams means that the Imam can't hear you directly and he doesn't have omniscience. Just like Karbala, he needs a delivery man (angel) to convey the message.

Wow. Classical case of Qiyas right there.

I wonder how many of the respected brothers in this thread are actually discussing with an aim to learn something, as opposed to selecting a pre-conceived notion and going to any length necessary to defend it.

[Hannibal]

Wow. Classical case of Qiyas right there.

I wonder how many of the respected brothers in this thread are actually discussing with an aim to learn something, as opposed to selecting a pre-conceived notion and going to any length necessary to defend it.

Last time I checked, qiyas was a problem in law (we aren't talking about law now). Aside this, the ghulat use the aya of Yaqub's sons asking him to make dua for them as a basis for justifying that the Imam somehow can hear the calls of millions of shias in the world at the same time from a different plane of existence or dimension and then process them in a matter of a few seconds or less and then give them all the answer at relatively the same speed.

You judge whose qiyas has the biggest stretch.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Hannibal

[Haydar Husayn]

Wow. Classical case of Qiyas right there.

How is it Qiyas? If the Imams (as) have this 'all-hearing' ability now, then why wouldn't they have it then?

I wonder how many of the respected brothers in this thread are actually discussing with an aim to learn something, as opposed to selecting a pre-conceived notion and going to any length necessary to defend it.

I agree that there is certainly a lot of that going on here. I would just dispute which side is doing that. On one hand, we have a group that simply read the Qur'an and authentic ahadith, and derive a set of practices and beliefs from the clear and explicit meaning of those texts. On the other hand, we have a group who want to defend every practice and belief that is now popular among Shias, and go looking through the texts to find anything vaguely similar in order to justify those practices and beliefs. There is a big difference between the two approaches.

[WilayaBlood]

Aslamalaykum,

@Hannibal

So I will repeat myself, either way, the Imams don't sit and process millions of calls a second (they aren't google). If they couldn't do this during their lifetimes, I don't see why they should be able to do this when they are dead as brother Haydar Husayn put it.

Your right they are not google, they are more sophisticated than that. If an angel can count the rain drops that fall, what about the teachers who are the walis.

Why do brothers keep calling them dead when Allah swt gives clear orders do not.

2:154 Do not say that those who are killed in Gods cause are dead; they are alive, but you are not aware of it.

[Hannibal]

Aslamalaykum,

@Hannibal

Your right they are not google, they are more sophisticated than that. If an angel can count the rain drops that fall, what about the teachers who are the walis.

Why do brothers keep calling them dead when Allah swt gives clear orders do not.

2:154 Do not say that those who are killed in Gods cause are dead; they are alive, but you are not aware of it.

Salam,

But we have explicit sahih hadiths from these teachers who are the walis that say the Imams don't know the rain counts.

btw, I mean dead as in passed on to the other world when the physical body shuts off not the other sense which the Qur'an is talking about.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Hannibal

[Ali_Hussain]

Aslamalaykum,

@Hannibal

Your right they are not google, they are more sophisticated than that. If an angel can count the rain drops that fall, what about the teachers who are the walis.

Why do brothers keep calling them dead when Allah swt gives clear orders do not.

2:154 Do not say that those who are killed in Gods cause are dead; they are alive, but you are not aware of it.

It has been reported in Rijal Kashi (Page 225) that Imam Ja'far al Sadiq (as) said: "By Allah! We are not but slaves of the one who created us and chose us, and we do not have control over (any) harm or benefit, and if we are shown mercy so it is by His rahmah (mercy/grace), and if we are punished then it is due to our own sins, by Allah we do not have a hujjah (overwhelming argument) upon Allah (to hold Him obliged) and no means of prevention from His turning (His mercy) away, and indeed we will definitely die, be buried, be gathered/spread out (on qiyamah), resurrected, raised and questioned. Torment/disaster be for them! What is wrong with them?! Allah (swt)'s la'nah (damnation) be on them! (i.e. on those who claim otherwise) They have certainly hurt (angered) Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, His prophet (pbuh) in his grave, Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Hussain, Zainul Abideen and al Baqir. Be witness you people that I have ordered my progeny of the prophet(pbuh), and none is with me (to protect) from bar'ah (dissociation) of Allah. If I obey Him then He will bless me and if I disobey Him then He will severely punish me."

Taraiful Maqal by Ayatullah Burujerdi, Volume 2, Footnote on page 357 by Allama Syed Mehdi Rijai

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.be/2012/04/powers-of-imams-as.html

Shaikh Kashi reported in a sahih hadith from ibn abi Umair, from Shu'aib, from abi Baseer, who said: I said to abi Abdullah (as): "Indeed they claim!" Imam (as) asked: "And what do they claim?" I said: "They claim that you know (number of) drops of the rain, number of stars and leaves of trees, weight of what is in the seas and number of (particles of) sand." So Imam (as) raised his hand towards the sky and said: "Subhanallah! Subhanallah! No one knows all this except for Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì."

Al Mu'amrah al Kubra by Ayatullah Hussain al Radhy, Page 227

http://realtashayyu.blogspot.be/2011/11/imams-and-knowledge-of-ghaib.html

[WilayaBlood]

Aslamalaykum,

But we have explicit sahih hadiths from these teachers who are the walis that say the Imams don't know the rain counts.

Do you believe Quran contains knowledge of everything wet and dry?

[Hannibal]

Aslamalaykum,

Do you believe Quran contains knowledge of everything wet and dry?

That aya refers to al-Lawh al-Mahfoodh (the preserved tablet), not the Qur'an.

[Haydar Husayn]

Why do brothers keep calling them dead when Allah swt gives clear orders do not.

2:154 Do not say that those who are killed in Gods cause are dead; they are alive, but you are not aware of it.

I think it's clear what meaning people are using. Otherwise we might as well say they don't die, or that they aren't killed, because whatever way you try to define those terms, it will be equivalent to saying that they are dead.

[WilayaBlood]

Aslamalaykum,

That aya refers to al-Lawh al-Mahfoodh (the preserved tablet), not the Qur'an.

Let's see what Agha Puya Yazdi r.a says in his tafsir

Everything seen and unseen is ordered and regulated by the laws made by Him; the fresh and the withered, the living and the dead - nothing is outside the plan of His creation. Allah knows that which takes place, manifest or hidden, because it is an effect of His supreme will.

Ayyashi reports that according to Imam Musa bin Jafar al Kazim, Imam Ali, while explaining verse 43 of al Rad, said: The book, mentioned in this verse, knowledge of which is stated to be with the witness who testifies to the prophethood of the Holy Prophet along with Allah; and the book, mentioned in verse 12 of Ya Sin, containing all things, which has been confined in a manifest or declared Imam, is the same clear book mentioned in verse 59 of An-am.

It means that the witness, who has the knowledge of the book is the imamum mubin and knows everything in the universe, is endowed with the divine wisdom and is chosen by Allah.

What are your thoughts on that?

[Islamic Salvation]

I rest my case with the Fatwa of the Imam ash-Shaykh at-Taifah at-Tusi in his at-Tahdhib and how he understood the Hadith I had presented before [from Kamil az-Ziyarat of Ibn Qulawayh] which he quotes with his chain to al-Kulayni [who has also recorded it in al-Kafi], I say that it is representative of the Madhhab, as I do not think there is anyone better than the Shaykh who can summarize for us the view and opinion of our Salaf in this regard.

ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ Úãä ÑæÇå ÞÇá ÞÇá ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ Çááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã): ÅÐÇ ÈÚÏÊ ÈÃÍÏßã ÇáÔÞÉ æäÃÊ Èå ÇáÏÇÑ ÝáíÚá Úáì ãäÒáå æáíÕá ÑßÚÊíä æáíÄã ÈÇáÓáÇã Åáì ÞÈæÑäÇ ÝÇä Ðáß íÕá ÅáíäÇ

æÊÓáã Úáì ÇáÃÆãÉ Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã ãä ÈÚíÏ ßãÇ ÊÓáã Úáíåã ãä ÞÑíÈ ÛíÑ Çäß áÇ íÕÍ Çä ÊÞæá (ÇÊíÊß ÒÇÆÑÇ) Èá ÊÞæá Ýí ãæÖÚå: (ÞÕÏÊ ÈÞáÈí ÒÇÆÑÇ ÅÐ ÚÌÒÊ Úä ÍÖæÑ ãÔåÏß¡ ææÌåÊ Åáíß ÓáÇãí áÚáãí ÈÃäå íÈáÛß Õáì Çááå Úáíß ÝÇÔÝÚ áí ÚäÏ ÑÈß ÚÒ æÌá) æÊÏÚæÇ ÈãÇ ÃÍÈÈÊ

Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa from Ibn Abi Umayr from the one he narrates from - who said: Abu Abdillah said: if it becomes too distant for you the journey, and whose house is far away, should climb to the highest position in his home, and pray a two Rakaat prayer, and should make Salaam towards our graves, for that reaches us.

at-Tusi says after the Hadith - commenting on it:

and the Taslim (sending of Salaam) to the Aimmah Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã from afar is exactly like the Taslim (sending of Salaam) on them from near [their graves], except that it is not correct to say in it - 'I have come to you' rather you say in its place - 'I intend with my heart your visitation since I was prevented from presence in your sanctum - and I have sent my Salaam to you with the knowledge that it reaches you Õáì Çááå Úáíß - so intercede for me to your lord ÚÒ æÌá' - and you pray for what you wish.

1. at-Tusi says there is no difference in between sending Salaam (and addresing them) from afar and from nearby.

2. at-Tusi says - we have knowledge 'Ilm' that it reaches them our Salaam.

3. at-Tusi says we should call on them directly - 'intercede for me with your lord'

Now the question, is at-Tusi a Mushrik or an Arab pagan!?

Edited August 11, 2012 by Islamic Salvation