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In the Name of God بسم الله

Beliefs Of The Jahiliyya Arabs

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

(salam)

Nad

I just posted you Zamakhshari's tafsir. So how come you have not come across a non-Shi`a tafsir that shows Allah agreed Jacob's sons' request for intercession?

It's also in Ibn Kathir.

The Quran and God's words in it are sufficient to establish this fact, just as they are enough to establish unequivocally and with 100% of certainty what method should a sincere believer adopt when praying to God

Well, you're not an authority, so I'll prefer what has come down from the Immaculates (as) over your comments.

(wasalam)

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These arent "my comments" but God's in His Book. Do you want the verses with God and the prophets explicitly telling even the worst sinners to pray Allah by themselves in sincerity that He might forgive them? How about you quote a single verse comanding or even advising anyone to seek intercession in order to be heard by God and be sure to gain His favor and forgiveness. I'll save you some time, dont even try because it doesnt exist.

But you're right on Zamakhshari. He does speculate on whether God did accept the request for intercession. How does this in any way, shape or form demonstrate that the verse shows God approving his son's demand for intercession? It doesnt.

Once more, the Quran in 9:102-3 assures all believers who come to God in sincere repentance that they will be joined in their prayers by the prophet, regardless of them making the request or not.

One more thing and it will be my last word:

2:186 And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way.

He is near. No need to go left and right to reach Him, a straight line is enough.

Edited by Nad_M
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These arent "my comments" but God's in His Book. Do you want the verses with God and the prophets explicitly telling even the worst sinners to pray Allah by themselves in sincerity that He might forgive them? How about you quote a single verse comanding or even advising anyone to seek intercession in order to be heard by God and gain His favor and forgiveness. I'll save you some time, dont even try because it doesnt exist.

Go back to previous pages of thread and see the verses yourself,Quran is quite explicit in advising to seek Waseela.Will you elaborate why did n't Suleman(as) ask directly?

And stop irritating brother with repeating same flawed arguments.

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

(salam)

Nad

Zamakhshari didn't speculate. He reported. Ibn Kathir also reports the last part from anas b malik.

There are 3 methods of interpretation: you either prefer the exegesis of the companions or you prefer the exegesis of the ahlulbayt or you prefer your own exegesis of the Qur'an.

If you take the first, then I have provided Zamakhsari and Ibn Kathir with their reports. If you take the second, then Imam ja`far al-sadiq stated that Jacob deferred praying for his sons until dawn (another report says, until Friday) when prayers are granted. Also, if you take the second, then I don't see why you won't take the ziyaaraat they taught in which they permit tawassul. If the third, then again we have a problem of premise, and I am not going to discuss that.

(wasalam)

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Reporting a speculation doesnt make it less speculative.

The Quran's own master exegete is itself first and foremost 75:19. And one of the fundamental pillars of exegisis, as all scholars agree, is to take as a basis the Quran's explicit statements, not external sources, in order to shed light on its ambiguous statements. The Quran is explicit on how to worship God and ask His forgiveness. Not in one instance has it been commanded, advised nor hinted at the believer that he should go through any entity in the heaven or the earth in order to be heard and answered faster or more favorably by the One who is closer than the jugular vein and Who accepts the sincere repentance of the lowest of sinners in this world, as amply stated. The Quran is silent on whether God approved of the action of seeking intercession in Jacob's case, this is established and undeniable. Those who want to speculate based on an argument from silence and indulge in story telling to justify an entire belief system may do so. I turn to the Quran's explicit statements.

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

Nad

So you've rejected the companions and you've rejected the ahlulbayt (as) and you've decided to opt for what you suppose is the correct exegesis of the Qur'an. This is where the discussion ends. And you are a Qur'anist.

Like I said, I have the exegesis of Sunni and Shi`i heavyweights in line with my understanding. I can afford one man less.

æÇáÓáÇã Úáí ãä ÇÊÈÚ ÇáåÏí

Edited by Jebreil
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Verse 4:64 of the Holy Qur'an may shed some light on the topic at hand:

"And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful."

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OP <please read> - Dear Brother, In spite of various proofs and clear evidence from Quran and Hadith provided to you, you seem to have refused to learn anything new.

Interestingly with each passing day, your infatuation with "tawassul" and your hatred and disdain for fellow Shias have been increasing unckecked and your insulting remarks multiplying as you seem to find no new converts in your anti-tawassul (anti-Shia) struggle (see the title of this thread and the progression OP has made since old threads).

I've started to believe this infatuation against Shia beliefs is eating OP's well being away, I highly suggest our Dear Brother OP to find solace and counseling outside of SC ASAP. I doubt any of us here qualify to be a professional help.

Here are a few of the "anti-tawassul" threads started by OP in past few months.

Talk about obsessions!!!

Wassalam

Maybe he really wants to know and understand! Maybe his intention is to guide and he doesnt seem to be ani tawassul, just doesnt agree with the way tawassul is done these days. Nothing wrong with his opinion.. It is his right to formulate one isnt it? He is merely pointing out that tawassul done nowadays borders on calling on other than Allah, when people are saying Ya Ali madad instead of salam! They are saying Ali Ali instead of Khuda Hafiz. And saying lets do Ali Ali instead ofAllah Allah. He is entitles to his opinion. So you honestly think generations to come will not question our mainstream practices? I question them because i believe! Some things will satisfy your belief system while some things will not! And i think what brother Haydar means is that there are no clear surah or hadith that guarantees fulfillment of dua when done using an intermediary and theRe is no promised reward for using tawassul, whereas looking at the clear surahs of Quran, there is a chance thre might be punishment for itmay border on calling on others than Allah.. So why take a chance? Atleast that is the message i got from his posts.

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(bismillah)

Nad

So you've rejected the companions and you've rejected the ahlulbayt (as) and you've decided to opt for what you suppose is the correct exegesis of the Qur'an. This is where the discussion ends. And you are a Qur'anist.

Like I said, I have the exegesis of Sunni and Shi`i heavyweights in line with my understanding. I can afford one man less.

æÇáÓáÇã Úáí ãä ÇÊÈÚ ÇáåÏí

I've rejected, as any Muslims ought to do according to your own belief system, any statement attributed to the prophet, compagnions or ahlulbayt that contradict an explicit command from the Quran. Allah and His prophets command me, explicitly and unambiguously to pray to God directly and your reports tell me otherwise so i reject them fully and completely. If that is your definition of Qur'anist then be it.

wa salaam

Verse 4:64 of the Holy Qur'an may shed some light on the topic at hand:

"And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah . And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful."

This has already been discussed:

In 4:64 it speaks of the hypocrites who caused great harm to the prophet and the community in general, saying how God will forgive them should they go to the prophet, then pray by themselves and in addition are joined in their prayers by the prophet. It only commands the hypocrites to go to the prophet (as a peaceful gesture) and to ask God's forgiveness by themselves. It doesnt command them to ask the prophet to intercede on their behalf and neither does it say they wouldnt be forgiven had the prophet not joined them in prayers. In fact it doesnt even command the prophet to pray for them. It simply states what the compassionate prophet will do should they leave their treachery towards him and the community and come to him in sincere repentance.....The only pre-requisite for God's forgiveness is the sinner's sincere resolve to mend his way and act righteously, as amply said throughout the Quran, regardless of whether he is joined in prayers by someone pious or not. This is demonstrated in 4:64 where the "coming" of the hypocrites to the prophet is a prerequisite to their forgiveness because it shows their sincerity in their claims to have abandonned their treacherous ways towards him and the rest of the community as opposed to 48:11-12 or 63:5 where the unsincere hypocrites' request to the prophet that he asks for God's forgiveness on their behalf is answered 48:11-12"who can control anything for you from Allah if He intends to do you harm or if He intends to do you good; nay, Allah is Aware of what you do" implying that Allah's decision will be on the basis of the knowledge that He has about the reality of their actions. If they deserve punishment no prayer of his will cause their forgiveness; and if they do not deserve punishment, no harm will be done to them whether he prays for their forgiveness or not. Allah cannot be deceived so even if the prophet was to accept their request and pray for their forgiveness on the basis of their alleged sincerity, it will be vain and without result just as the prophet Ibrahim's prayer for his father, due to a previous promise he had made, was ultimately vain in God's eyes 9:113-4.
Edited by Nad_M
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I agree that it only refers to Taslim from afar, but what is contained in the Taslim according to at-Tusi is not just saying 'as-Salaam Alaykum', it is the passages that are recited by those who visit the Qubur in person i.e. the Ziyarat, and having the words 'Fashfau li Indallahi' in them is not controversial at all according to at-Tusi, he does not even need to explain himsef, he is speaking to people who are practising this normally, this is our Salaf.

So you can say what you would say if you were physically present at the Qubur, since we have 'knowledge' that it will be conveyed to them our words.

So what say at the Qubur --> we can say from afar, and what do we say there, I ask, we speak to them as though they are alive [which they are], and they have already been granted the power of Shafa'ah without a doubt [this is a given], so it is within their domain.

I have some reservations like brothers Dar and al-Irshad about random Istigatha outside the context of Taslim or Ziyarah to them, and asking of the Hajaat directly without mentioning Allah's role in this, we are not the Mufawidda after all, and that is not their exclusive domain [i.e. Rizk, children], so there the language has to change, where we ask them to pray for us to their lord for certain affairs.

Qaim

1. I think Salvation's answer is correct. If you accept what he says - which relies on al-Tusi - then this would establish that they can pray and intercede.

2. Of course, if you accept - as I do - that ziyara jaami`a is good evidence (as in hujja), then it would be clear that they can intercede and pray for us. It says "take me into your care" and "enter me into your faction", but these could mean "pray that I am cared for" and "pray that I enter your faction". So this would establish that they can pray and intercede.

3. Also, if you believe that they are embodied after death - as the Qur'an says, "they are beside their Lord, well-provided for" - then this suggests that they can be in communion with God, addressing Him.

I do not see a problem if I pray to Allah for your health and wealth now. Nor would it be a problem to ask Imam al-`Asr (as), upon meeting him, to pray for your health and wealth. If you believe that your requests to him are communicated to him, then again it would be no problem to ask him to pray for your health and wealth. If it is established for you from either of the above 3 points - or any other point - that your requests reach them and that they can pray and intercede on your behalf, I do not see a problem for you to ask them to pray to Allah for your wealth and health.

I only see a potential issue where a person prays to the Immaculate to give them their health and wealth.

I think we require evidence - which has not yet been provided - that the Immaculates personally interfere in the world's physics as we can interfere in the world's physics through our bodies. (without recourse to a discussion on wilaya takwiniyya)

(wasalam)

Thank you for your good and wise responses, though I think the gist of my argument remains unaddressed. There is no question that the hujaj do hear supernatural things, both in their lives and after their deaths. The taslim of ziyara is legitimate and has clearly been narrated authentically in the hadith we are analyzing. We also know the Prophet (pbuh) receives our taslim at the end of our prayers by Allah's permission (whether that is directly or through a medium), and there are even examples of ordinary people hearing in their death. The Hidden Imam (as) currently receives news by Allah's permission, and is our 'witness' over us even in occultation. There is no question regarding these points brought up.

My question is regarding Tusi's commentary, which reads into the hadith. Particularly, he says ÇÔÝÚ áí ÚäÏ ÑÈß (make shafa`a for me to your Lord) and that is what is being used to rationalize tawassul and asking the Imams for worldly favours. When I first read the full phrase, what struck my mind was not worldly intercession, but the intercession of the Hereafter. The word shafa`a (intercession) in the Qur'an is used relative to human beings when mentioning advocacy on the Day of Judgment. All people will be raised with their Imam, and that hujja is a witness to the people of his time. He intercedes to Allah (makes shafa`a) for their forgiveness of sin. That's the primary role of the Imam on the Day of Judgment in the Qur'an, and that theme can be seen in a number of ayat... from the language, I believe this is what Tusi was referring to. While praying to an Imam for health/wealth/success/marriage is a popular practice today and was probably being practiced in some Imami circles at the time of the muqaddimeen, I don't think those things are particular to the shafa`a mentioned. Phrases in ziyarat like "Take me into your care" or "Enter me into your faction" may also be Judgment Day related; as they are prayers that Allah removes our sins and raises us with the Imams of Guidance, and includes us amongst their Shi`a.

The onus is upon the practicers of tawassul to bring forth an authentic hadith from the Ahl al-Bayt where a dead hujja is being asked for a worldly favour. Preferrably, it must be sanctioned by an infallible in the matn, but I would also accept a hadith where a popular thiqa narrator is practicing it. I'm not saying it does not exist, it can very well be out there and I am open to accepting it once it is brought forth. But the problem with this practice is; people practice it first and then look for its proofs later. Most of its proofs are inspired by rational points and not so much clear nass from the Imams. On the contrary, the entire Sahifa Sajjadiyya is full of ad`iyya that beeseech Allah alone and not the Prophet (pbuh) or Imam `Ali. If the Imams respond to all of our du`a', and their du`a' is more accepted than ours, then why make a du`a' directly to Allah at all? And yet this is what has been recommended while the practice of tawassul rests on shaky grounds.

And Allah knows best. I don't have a particular position in this debate, I don't equate tawassul to the practices of jahiliyya nor do I believe it is a sin, but out of precaution I don't take part in it either.

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(bismillah)

Salam

The onus is upon the practicers of tawassul to bring forth an authentic hadith from the Ahl al-Bayt where a dead hujja is being asked for a worldly favour. Preferrably, it must be sanctioned by an infallible in the matn, but I would also accept a hadith where a popular thiqa narrator is practicing it. I'm not saying it does not exist, it can very well be out there and I am open to accepting it once it is brought forth.

The following words from Ziyrat-e-Jamiya gives insight on this.

This is recited for all the Imam's (as) dead and alive.

ãõÓúÊóÌöíÑñ Èößõãú

‏ÒóÇÆöÑñ áóßõãú

áÇóÆöÐñ ÚóÇÆöÐñ ÈöÞõÈõæÑößõãú

ãõÓúÊóÔúÝöÚñ Åöáóì Çááóøåö ÚóÒóø æóÌóáóø Èößõãú

æóãõÊóÞóÑöøÈñ Èößõãú Åöáóíúåö

‏æóãõÞóÏöøãõßõãú ÃóãóÇãó ØóáöÈóÊöí æóÍóæóÇÆöÌöí æóÅöÑóÇÏóÊöí

I take shelter in your neighborhood

I make a visit to do homage and praise you

for me your resting abodes are sanctuaries

in the court of the Almighty you are my advocates

I seek His nearness through you

And submit to you(keep before you) the fulfillment of my wants and desire.

As for the Hujjah that has passed away, i believe that their status/position/authority/knowledge remains unaffected after their death. The following portion of the same Ziyara-e-Jamiya supports this:

ÃóÔúåóÏõ Ãóäóø åóÐóÇ ÓóÇÈöÞñ áóßõãú ÝöíãóÇ ãóÖóì æóÌóÇÑò áóßõãú ÝöíãóÇ ÈóÞöíó

"I testify that was was said earlier is for you in the past and will continue to be for your in the future."

In addition to this we have multiple narrations which show that the death of the Imam's (as) is not like our death.

You can read them here: http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-ahlul-bait/ahlulbait-as-don-t-die

Wassalam

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A "dead hujja" or a "dead sign" (of Allah). "Dead", not martyred. More rhetoric.

Why do you people not heed the Qur'anic command that forbids us to call martyrs dead? And tell us that they receive sustenance and that we do not know. And thats spot on. We do not know what even "death" is leave alone the life of a martyr.

Or is that also "wrongly interpreted"? Without first believing in the Qur'an, a person is not even qualified to debate Islamic matters imo.

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Guest Jebreil

(bismillah)

(salam)

Qaim

I think, since we are all agreed, that it is not shirk, the question is merely whether we have cases where somebody requested an Immaculate to pray or call Allah, and the Immaculate prayed or called Allah on their request.

In the Qur'an, we have the Egyptians requesting Moses to call on Allah to rescue them from the plagues:

æáãÇ æÞÚ Úáíåã ÇáÑÌÒ ÞÇáæÇ íÇãæÓì ÇÏÚ áäÇ ÑÈß ÈãÇ ÚåÏ ÚäÏß áÆä ßÔÝÊ ÚäÇ ÇáÑÌÒ áäÄãää áß æáäÑÓáä ãÚß Èäí ÅÓÑÇÆíá

We also have the bani isra`il requesting Moses to call on Allah for food:

ÝóÇÏúÚõ áóäóÇ ÑóÈóøßó íõÎúÑöÌú áóäóÇ ãöãóøÇ ÊõäÈöÊõ ÇáÃóÑúÖõ ãöä ÈóÞúáöåóÇ æóÞöËóøÂÆöåóÇ æóÝõæãöåóÇ æóÚóÏóÓöåóÇ æóÈóÕóáöåóÇ

We also have the disciples indirectly requesting Christ to call on Allah for a heavenly spread.

In hadith, we have cases of requests which can be used as evidence in this regard.

Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÇÈÇä ÇáÒíÇÊ æ ßä ãßíäÇ ÚäÏ ÇáÑÖÇ: ÞáÊ áááÐÑÖÇ: ÇÏÚ Çááå áí æ áÇåá ÈíÊí . ÝÞÇá : Çæ áÓÊ ÇÝÚá ¿ æ Çááå Çä ÇÚãÇáßã áÊÚÑÖ Úáí Ýí ßá íæã æ áíáå . ÞÇá : ÝÇÓÊÚÙÊ Ðáß . ÝÞÇá áí : ÇãÇ ÊÞÑÁ ßÊÇÈ Çááå ÚÒæÌá æ Þá ÇÚãáæÇ ÝÓíÑí Çááå Úãáßã æ ÑÓæáå æ Çáãæãäæä ¿ ÞÇá : åæ æ Çááå Úáí ÇÈä ÇÈí ØÇáÈ .

Where one asks al-ridha to pray for him and his family, to which he replies: do I not do so? By Allah, your deeds come to me everyday and night.

He then gives a tafsir of the verse "Say: act! so your deeds journey to Allah and His Apostle and the believers. In tafsir of believers, he indicates `ali b abi talib.

áÚÏÉ Úä ÇáÈÑÞí ¡ Úä ÇáÈÒäØí ÞÇá : ÞáÊ ááÑÖÇ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã : ÌÚáÊ ÝÏǘ

ÇÏÚ Çááå ÚÒ æÌá Ãä íÑÒÞäí ÇáÍáÇá ÝÞÇá : ÃÊÏÑí ãÇ ÇáÍáÇá ¿ ÞáÊ : ÇáÐí ÚäÏäÇ

Çá˜ÓÈ ÇáØíÈ ÝÞÇá : ˜Çä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã íÞæá : ÇáÍáÇá åæ ÞæÊ ÇáãÕØÝíä

Ëã ÞÇá : Þá ÃÓÆᘠãä ÑÒÞ˜ ÇáæÇÓÚ

al-Ridha is asked to pray to Allah that he is fed from the halal. The Imam then discusses about what "halal" means, and then teaches him how to pray.

It might be objected that the Imam in returns teaches him how to pray and so we don't have evidence that he prays for the man upon his request. I grant that, but hold that if it is not permissible to request someone - especially the Imam - to pray for one's rizq, the Imam would have told him off. So I am relying on his taqrir.

We also have the case where Imam al-Ridha was requested to pray for the rain, which he granted and did not object to the request itself.

These are all cases when the Immaculates have been alive, can receive the request, and can pray. You grant that they are alive, can receive the request and can pray, though you wonder whether this prayer is not limited to matters of aakhira.

When they were present in the dunya, they called on Allah and prayed for non-aakhira affairs upon request. I do not see a reason why we cannot request them to pray for non-aakhira affairs now.

I would like to know a reason why we cannot request them to pray for this-worldly affairs. It was permissible while they were in this world, so it is not a case of shirk or haram. So, why would you suggest it is not permissible in the other?

It is not that they are dead, or do not receive our taslim or requests for intercession, or that they cannot pray. So why not?

I also do not think it is relevant how they receive these requests or how they pray for it. I can still imagine the Imam praying for the this-worldly affairs of the Shi`a on a general basis.

It could be asked: if they are praying for the Shi`a anyway, why request them to pray? I haven't seen an answer for this, though an answer could be similar to the answer of the following:

If Allah knows our needs, why then must we utter it in supplication? The Imam replied: because He likes us to utter our needs. It could be that He likes us to request the intercession of those whom He has selected for this purpose.

(wasalam)

Edited by Jebreil
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I think brother Qaim raises a good point, but at the end of the day, if they can hear our Taslim and Ziyarat from near and afar, and we can ask them to intercede for us [i agree it is referring to the day of judgement], what would be wrong if one says: 'pray to your lord for the increase in my rizk, OR pray to your lord to grant me a son/daughter' in other words ask them to pray to their lord for the straightening of our worldly affairs.

Everyone agrees that one can ask them to pray for us in our worldy affairs when they are alive, why not when they are dead, since they are still 'alive', our requests are conveyed to them, they can still pray to their lord for us, their prayer is more speedy to be answered.

Edited by Islamic Salvation
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I think, since we are all agreed, that it is not shirk, the question is merely whether we have cases where somebody requested an Immaculate to pray or call Allah, and the Immaculate prayed or called Allah on their request.

In the Qur'an, we have the Egyptians requesting Moses to call on Allah to rescue them from the plagues:

æáãÇ æÞÚ Úáíåã ÇáÑÌÒ ÞÇáæÇ íÇãæÓì ÇÏÚ áäÇ ÑÈß ÈãÇ ÚåÏ ÚäÏß áÆä ßÔÝÊ ÚäÇ ÇáÑÌÒ áäÄãää áß æáäÑÓáä ãÚß Èäí ÅÓÑÇÆíá

We also have the bani isra`il requesting Moses to call on Allah for food:

ÝóÇÏúÚõ áóäóÇ ÑóÈóøßó íõÎúÑöÌú áóäóÇ ãöãóøÇ ÊõäÈöÊõ ÇáÃóÑúÖõ ãöä ÈóÞúáöåóÇ æóÞöËóøÂÆöåóÇ æóÝõæãöåóÇ æóÚóÏóÓöåóÇ æóÈóÕóáöåóÇ

We also have the disciples indirectly requesting Christ to call on Allah for a heavenly spread.

How does anyone see evidence of the legitimity of requesting intercession in God's eyes from these examples, that are in fact rude challenges "ask your God" (even by Jesus' disciples) to test a prophet's truthfulness, coming from people who had already seen miracles but still had no belief whatsoever or were wavering in doubts. Where do any of these verses show that God approves these requests to the prophets (not the prophets' prayers)? Prophets might sometimes do something for a greater objective from their own point of view yet God does not necessarly approve it as seen in the prophet Muhammad's case 66:1-2.

So is it also proof for the divine approval of intercession when disbelievers often challenged their prophets to ask God to "bring down on us the promised punishement you threaten us with"?

When has it ever been stated either by God or His prophets in the Quran, that one should pray to an entity besides Allah to add more likeliness to be forgiven or to receive a certain favor? Had it been of any necessity or "added value", why arent those most in need of it, such as the oppressors waging war for the destruction of Islam not advised to seek the help of a pious entity to be more likely forgiven but are instead simply told to 5:34"repent...know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful"

Why didnt the prophet Muhammad ever advise his followers to request him or his family to intercede on their behalf?

Edited by Nad_M
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^^Prophet(saww),and His Family gave examples of praying for others,thus interceding.

And if you take Quran literally where does it tells there are five prayers? It was Waseela who told so.Where the ways to offer Prayers are mentioned,so they are not mentioned in Quran,that means you don't believe in Salat as well.

BTW i raised so many questions in previous posts,would you mind reflecting on them first?

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I think brother Qaim raises a good point, but at the end of the day, if they can hear our Taslim and Ziyarat from near and afar, and we can ask them to intercede for us [i agree it is referring to the day of judgement], what would be wrong if one says: 'pray to your lord for the increase in my rizk, OR pray to your lord to grant me a son/daughter' in other words ask them to pray to their lord for the straightening of our worldly affairs.

Everyone agrees that one can ask them to pray for us in our worldy affairs when they are alive, why not when they are dead, since they are still 'alive', our requests are conveyed to them, they can still pray to their lord for us, their prayer is more speedy to be answered.

I posted my last post a week or so ago. But I had a question for you (I'm not challenging you here, I just want to see your views). In my own experience (perhaps this is different with others) the vast, and I mean VAST majority of Shi'as I have met have asked the Imams/Fatima etc. directly for their help. In other words, they have done du'a to them. They don't, as far as I have seen, tell the Imams "Oh Imam X, please make dua to Allah on my behalf to heal my child". It's more like "Oh Imam X, heal my injured knee/protect my child who is studying oversees".

Given they are lay people to the max, they don't really think about the independent/dependent on Allah debate, in fact many of them think they can do it independently. So if it's not full blown shirk, it has at least some lower hidden form of shirk attached to it. I remember this lady back in Iran who was caught cursing Lady Ma'suma (ra) [<-- these shiachat emotions are really androcentric, the feminine option isn't available!] and when asked why, she said that she had entrusted her son to Masuma when he went to war, but he came back dead. So you can see from here how people view things.

My point is, isn't being lenient on these kinds of loopholes creating a lot of damage? You can clearly see it this is the case with the Aliyun Wali Allah business. Why not be a bit more strict and do damage control? Don't you think these loopholes open Pandora's box?

Remember, I just want your views so don't be surprised if I don't reply (unless I need something clarified).

Edited by Hannibal
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^^Prophet(saww),and His Family gave examples of praying for others,thus interceding.

And if you take Quran literally where does it tells there are five prayers? It was Waseela who told so.Where the ways to offer Prayers are mentioned,so they are not mentioned in Quran,that means you don't believe in Salat as well.

BTW i raised so many questions in previous posts,would you mind reflecting on them first?

The Quran tells us to practice salaat. We look for the details in the practiced sunna of our fathers.

The Quran doesnt tell us to practice intercession, but the entire opposite by praying directly to God. So we do not need to look for the details of this practice alien to the basic Quran principle that God is "nearer than your jugular vein and answers the prayer of the supplicant".

I dont need to go to your previous posts and lookup your other "questions" that are on the same level as this last one. I'll let you figure their irrelevancy yourself in the light of what was already said.

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The Quran tells us to practice salaat. We look for the details in the practiced sunna of our fathers.

The Quran doesnt tell us to practice intercession, but the entire opposite by praying directly to God. So we do not need to look for the details of this practice alien to the basic Quran principle that God is "nearer than your jugular vein and answers the prayer of the supplicant".

I dont need to go to your previous posts and lookup your other "questions" that are on the same level as this last one. I'll let you figure their irrelevancy yourself in the light of what was already said.

The Quran does tells us to seek ''Waseela'', so do we.

In Quran Allah says that i guide people still we see Prophets.Why?

He says I give life and death so what were Esa(as) and Izrael(as) doing.?

If He says pray to me that does n't contradict intercession, if you say it does then answer the above questions.I have just repeated two, there are more. But first answer them.

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Aslamalaykum,

Interesting narration I came across from sunni books, I believe it was Imam Malik one of the four sunni Imams also a student of our beloved 6th Imam.

As-Samhudi said, in his book Wafa’ul-Wafa’,chapter Akhbar ul-Mustafa:

“Beseeching the Prophet (s) for something may mean that he (s) can intercede with Allah to achieve what has been asked for. It is just as when someone asks him to be his Companion in Paradise. It means that the Prophet is a cause and an intercessor”.

In Kashf ul-Irtiyab p.252, it is recorded that an-Nassa’i, at-Tirmidhi and others mentioned that Prophet Muhammad (s) had taught some of his Companions to pray by saying:

O’ My Lord. I ask You and beseech You by the honor of Your Apostle, the Apostle of Mercy. O’ Muhammad, the Apostle of Allah, I beseech you to intercede with Allah to grant me what I ask for. O’ Allah, accept his intercession.

As-Samhudi quoted in his book Wafa’ul-Wafa’ vol. 2 p. 422, from the judge Ayyadh’s book ash-Shafa’ that Abu Hamid said:

“Abu Ja’far, the Caliph, debated with Malik bin Anas in the mosque of the Prophet Muhammad (s). Malik said: “O’ Amir ul-Mu’minin -Commander of the Believers-, do not talk aloud in this mosque, because Allah had educated the people by saying: “O you who believe! Do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became nullified while you do not perceive.” (49:2)

He has praised some people by saying: “Surely, they who lower their voices before Allah's Apostle are they whose hearts Allah has proved for guarding against evil, they shall have forgiveness and a great reward.” (49:3)

He has dispraised some people by saying: “As for those who call out to you from behind the private chambers, surely most of them do not understand.” (49:4)

The Prophet (s) enjoys the same sanctity whether he is alive or dead.”

Abu Ja’far submitted and said: “O’ Abu Abdullah, may I face the Qiblah to pray or should I face the (shrine of the) Prophet?” Malik answered, “Why do you turn your face away from him when he is your intermediary and your father Adam’s intermediary to Allah on the Day of Judgment? Turn your face towards him and ask him to be your intercessor with Allah. Allah (Exalted is He) says, ‘And had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Apostle had also asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning to mercy, Merciful.’ (4:64)

The author of Khulasat ul-Kalam says that this tradition was mentioned by as-Sabki in his book Shifa’us-Siqam fi Ziyarat Khayr ul-Anam, as-Samhudi in his book Khulasat ul-Wafa, al-Qastalani in his book al-Mawahib al-Laduniyya, Ibn Hajar in his books Tuhfatuz-Zuwwar and al-Jawhar ul-Munazzam and many others who wrote about the etiquette of visiting the tomb of Prophet Muhammad (s).

Ibn Hajar said in his book al-Jawharul-Munazzam: “This tradition, narrated by Imam Malik, came with a true source that could not be suspected.”

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I'd like to ask this for the ones who accept tawassul (in whatever degree):

Looking at the amount of Qur'anic verses and ahadith, even though asking to ma'sumin to pray for us is permissible (i.e. the type of "O Rasulullah, please pray to Allah that He gives us .....", not the type of "O Rasulullah, please heal me/give me rizq" which I find highly problematic), can we conclude that it's not better or even on the same level as asking directly to Allah by mentioning the ma'sumin? (i.e. "Ya Allah, bi haqqi Muhammad wa ali Muhammad, I ask to You .....")

The point is if the former is on the same level or better than the latter, then we would see a lot of material supports for this while in fact the vast majority of our materials is speaking for the latter.

If you don't agree that the former is lower than the latter, then you have to explain the abundance of materials for the latter vs the small number of materials of the former.

Please note that when I say "materials", I mean strong materials such as al-Qur'an, sahih/hasan/muwaththaq ahadith, or opinions of our early `ulama.

Of course, the consequence of this is if we have 2 things that's not on the same level, then we should concentrate more on the higher level one and perhaps only do the lower level one sparingly or at times when the materials indicate us it's to be done.

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Asalamualaikum Brothers & Sisters,

Ibn Abi Najran said I heard Aba al-Hasan (as) and he said: “Whoever hates our shi`ahs, has certainly hated us, and whoever follows them, has certainly followed us, because they are from us, and they are created from our clay. Whoever loves them has loved us, and whoever hates them is not from us.

So all shi'as even Ghulu?

The debate is long and complicated. Someone has to conclude it, as for the Salafi prayer will be answered directly by Allah the All-Mighty while the Shi'a's prayers to Allah is never answered that is why they need tawassul to reach Allah bearing in mind the Quranic verses that even Kafiroon's prayer to Allah is answered.

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(bismillah)

Asalamualaikum Brothers & Sisters,

Wa`alaykumussalaam

So all shi'as even Ghulu?

The ghulaat are not shia, let alone muslims. Please read about the Imams [as] have defined and described what a Shia is in their ahadeeth.

The debate is long and complicated. Someone has to conclude it, as for the Salafi prayer will be answered directly by Allah the All-Mighty while the Shi'a's prayers to Allah is never answered that is why they need tawassul to reach Allah bearing in mind the Quranic verses that even Kafiroon's prayer to Allah is answered.

Okay, well, don't get caught.

Old topic shouldn't be bumped. Locked.

في امان الله

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