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Did Imam Ali A.s Not Know The Hukum For Mazi?

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What was the point of verse that ''We revealed it on your Heart''.If it was Jebreil acquainting Him with Ayaat.

Jebreil only came with the orders of Almighty about which verse He is going to Propagate.Jebreil used to come to Esa(as) too,then how did He bring the Book in His Mother's lap?

sorry, what verse number is that?

there is this one:

The Faithful Spirit has descended with it, (26:193)

Upon your heart that you may be of the warners (26:194)

Nights of Qadr are to pay thanks for revelation of Quran for us not for Prophet(saww).

Surely We revealed it on the grand night. (97:1)

Aside from the obvious fact of the clear meaning of this verse, macisaac translated the tafsir of this surah

http://www.*******.org/tafsir/tashayyu/al-qadr

This is your chance, prove to everyone you don't do your own interpretation of the Qur'an to suit your beliefs.

You keep claiming you are 'your group' are not the ones who twist the words of Allah, let's see.

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sorry, what verse number is that?

there is this one:

The Faithful Spirit has descended with it, (26:193)

Upon your heart that you may be of the warners (26:194)

Surely We revealed it on the grand night. (97:1)

Aside from the obvious fact of the clear meaning of this verse, macisaac translated the tafsir of this surah

http://www.tashayyu....ashayyu/al-qadr

This is your chance, prove to everyone you don't do your own interpretation of the Qur'an to suit your beliefs.

You keep claiming you are 'your group' are not the ones who twist the words of Allah, let's see.

Yes its the same verse you quoted above.

Yes it is revealed,but where the verse is saying that Prophet(saww) did n't know what is going to be revealed? Injeel is as per Islamic calender revealed on 12th Ramzan then which Book was Jesus(as) talking about in His mother's lap? Apparently ,Injeel's revelation means when He started preaching.I am sure you won't say it was Harry potter,which He referred being an infant.

Imam Mahdi(as) is born,alive then why do we wish for His Zahoor.Will we be not happy when He will come? So His 'revelation' before the world does n't mean He did n't exist.Quran was in His(Prophet.saww.) heart too,but not revealed before the world.

And which chance you talk about? and why do i need chances from people,who only see in the books what they want to see.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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So what was the point of Jibrail (a) visiting the Prophet (pbuh)?

Salam,

There is difference between "revelation" and "relaying". Those who understand Quran from the Ahlulbayt (as) understand it well. Ever wonder, this is the same Quran which was "relayed" in 23 years (13 years of Makkah and 10 years of Madina life of Prophet) but then was also "revealed" in one moment in one night of Qadr.

Laylaltul Qadr is one of the biggest proofs that Quran was already there in Loh-e-Mehfooz and was known to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his progeny even before it was let known to the mankind through the toungue of Prophet (pbuh).

You would be really naive to think that this particular Layl (night) of Qadr started after the Ramadhan fasts were obligated on Muslims in 2nd/3rd year of Hijra. First off, the fasting was obligated on all Abrahimic faiths, so for all those simple minded(s) on SC, the Layl-at-ul-Qadr existed at least for 5000 years since the message of Ibrahim. But then Quran says a whole lot happens in this night, meaning this particular night Layl-at-ul-Qadr might have existed from the start of humanity.

But again, one woders if current humanity is the first creation of Allah (swt) at all? Which obviously it is not, as according to hadith there were 50,000 Adams which were created before our ancestor Adam (as) and the nations of Jinns and Angels were already there before all these Adams. This is testified in Quran by the conversation of Angels when Allah (swt) was intending to make our ancestor Adam (as), and angels objected saying he will do the same bloodshed on the earth as those before him did. Also research on why Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is claiming in Quran that he is the first Muslim; meaning the first one who has done "tasleem" - total surrender - to Allah (swt) - that is before the sun, the moon, the universe, Jibreel, Mikail, Ridhwan, Iblees and everybody else surrendered to Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

In conclusion, Do not minimize Islam by the extent of your imaginations. This Layl-at-ul-Qadr existed before the existence of the creations that we see today. So were all the events of this Layl existed and so were the "Amr" and the "Ulul-Amr(s)" existed before the beginning of these creations, and so was this Quran - the word of Allah (swt) existed dated as back as at least this Layl existence.

Just a note of caution - There is reason that you are required in Islam to learn "deen" from "Rasikhoon fil Ilm" [from the door of knowledge to the city of knowledge] and not from those recently converted Shias who read half hadith here, half ayat there, can't even comprehend the events, environment, language, usage; the hollistic frame of reference and give there "aqeeda" fatwas on SC.

My advice (myself included), learn more & preach less. Listen more & speak less; most of all, please refrain from taking on the responsibily of "fixing" the ummah. We don't need phony 'would be' mehdis among us.

Edited by Waiting for HIM

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Salam,

There is difference between "revelation" and "relaying". Those who understand Quran from the Ahlulbayt (as) understand it well. Ever wonder, this is the same Quran which was "relayed" in 23 years (13 years of Makkah and 10 years of Madina life of Prophet) but then was also "revealed" in one moment in one night of Qadr.

Laylaltul Qadr is one of the biggest proofs that Quran was already there in Loh-e-Mehfooz and was known to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his progeny even before it was let known to the mankind through the toungue of Prophet (pbuh).

You would be really naive to think that this particular Layl (night) of Qadr started after the Ramadhan fasts were obligated on Muslims in 2nd/3rd year of Hijra. First off, the fasting was obligated on all Abrahimic faiths, so for all those simple minded(s) on SC, the Layl-at-ul-Qadr existed at least for 5000 years since the message of Ibrahim. But then Quran says a whole lot happens in this night, meaning this particular night Layl-at-ul-Qadr might have existed from the start of humanity.

But again, one woders if current humanity is the first creation of Allah (swt) at all? Which obviously it is not, as according to hadith there were 50,000 Adams which were created before our ancestor Adam (as) and the nations of Jinns and Angels were already there before all these Adams. This is testified in Quran by the conversation of Angels when Allah (swt) was intending to make our ancestor Adam (as), and angels objected saying he will do the same bloodshed on the earth as those before him did. Also research on why Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is claiming in Quran that he is the first Muslim; meaning the first one who has done "tasleem" - total surrender - to Allah (swt) - that is before the sun, the moon, the universe, Jibreel, Mikail, Ridhwan, Iblees and everybody else surrendered to Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

In conclusion, Do not minimize Islam by the extent of your imaginations. This Layl-at-ul-Qadr existed before the existence of the creations that we see today. So were all the events of this Layl existed and so were the "Amr" and the "Ulul-Amr(s)" existed before the beginning of these creations, and so was this Quran - the word of Allah (swt) existed dated as back as at least this Layl existence.

So according to your theory, the Prophet (pbuh) already knew the verse about Zayd before humanity was ever in existence. So he knew Zayd and his wife would end up divorce, but pushed through with arranging the marriage anyway. He also knew the first two verses of Surah at-Tahreem:

O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise. [Qur'an 66:1-2, Shakir]

Tafsir from the Ahlulbayt (as):

Ahmad b. Idris reported to us. He said: Ahmad b. Muhammad narrated to us from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from Ibn Sayyar from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام regarding His تعالى saying “O prophet, why did you prohibit what Allah has made lawful to you” (to the end of) the aya. He said: `A’isha and Hafsa found out about the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله while he was with Mariya. So the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله said: By Allah, I will not draw near her. So Allah commanded him to atone for his oath.

Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi Najran from `Asim b. Humayd from Muhammad b. Qays. He said: Abu Ja`far عليه السلام said: Allah عز و جل said to His Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله “O prophet, why did you prohibit what Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? but Allah is forgiving, merciful. Allah has prescribed for you to expiate your oaths” So he made it an oath and the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله atoned it (did kaffara for it). I said: What did he atone it with? He said: Feeding ten poor people, for every poor person a mudd (of food).

http://www.*******.org/tafsir/tashayyu/at-tahreem

So the Prophet (pbuh) already knew these verses, but made the oath anyway, and then had to atone for it? What kind of nonsense is this?

Just a note of caution - There is reason that you are required in Islam to learn "deen" from "Rasikhoon fil Ilm" [from the door of knowledge to the city of knowledge] and not from those recently converted Shias who read half hadith here, half ayat there, can't even comprehend the events, environment, language, usage; the hollistic frame of reference and give there "aqeeda" fatwas on SC.

My advice (myself included), learn more & preach less. Listen more & speak less; most of all, please refrain from taking on the responsibily of "fixing" the ummah. We don't need phony 'would be' mehdis among us.

Yes, it would be helpful if you preached less, especially about what you think the motives of various posters on ShiaChat are. Nobody particularly cares what you think about them anyway. So just stick to discussing the issues, without making it personal.

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So according to your theory, the Prophet (pbuh) already knew the verse about Zayd before humanity was ever in existence. So he knew Zayd and his wife would end up divorce, but pushed through with arranging the marriage anyway. He also knew the first two verses of Surah at-Tahreem:

O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise. [Qur'an 66:1-2, Shakir]

Tafsir from the Ahlulbayt (as):

Ahmad b. Idris reported to us. He said: Ahmad b. Muhammad narrated to us from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from Ibn Sayyar from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام regarding His تعالى saying “O prophet, why did you prohibit what Allah has made lawful to you” (to the end of) the aya. He said: `A’isha and Hafsa found out about the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله while he was with Mariya. So the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله said: By Allah, I will not draw near her. So Allah commanded him to atone for his oath.

Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi Najran from `Asim b. Humayd from Muhammad b. Qays. He said: Abu Ja`far عليه السلام said: Allah عز و جل said to His Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله “O prophet, why did you prohibit what Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? but Allah is forgiving, merciful. Allah has prescribed for you to expiate your oaths” So he made it an oath and the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله atoned it (did kaffara for it). I said: What did he atone it with? He said: Feeding ten poor people, for every poor person a mudd (of food).

http://www.tashayyu....ayyu/at-tahreem

So the Prophet (pbuh) already knew these verses, but made the oath anyway, and then had to atone for it? What kind of nonsense is this?

Yes, it would be helpful if you preached less, especially about what you think the motives of various posters on ShiaChat are. Nobody particularly cares what you think about them anyway. So just stick to discussing the issues, without making it personal.

In your particular case, I would prescribe "take out your nafs" once you try to search Islam from your 2nd hand sources of trasnlations; which is a big blocker in Islamic research by itself inherently (I say 2nd hand because obviously you don't understand Arabic) and its evident from your previous posts, you don't pay particular weight to Quran until some ayat suits your way of thinking.

Nothing personal as I don't exactly know what's your agenda on SC is, but it surely does not seem like you come here for learning.

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To hh

Prophet(saww) prophesized several times that Karbala is going to happen,and also told the fate of His grandson(as).Still Imam Hussain(as) tried to save them from this great sin,so did He doubt the words of His grandfather(saww)?when He was preaching those beasts.

Same applied to your examples,Prophet(saww) had to complete hujja on the world,first by marrying Zainab(as) to zaid so to end discrimination against slaves,then to marry the divorcee to show adopted sons don't become real ones.So what if He knew it would happen.And He took the oath,now it is recorded and world knows how torturous His wives were.

Anyways,when your people get personal with others why don't you feel any pang then? You like their posts with such stuff,but suddenly your principles awaken when someone from opposite side gives some'' healthy advice.''

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Did you just make all that up? You have written such a load of nonsense here, it is hard to even know where to begin, I'm guessing this is all from you? Or what you heard from some zakir, care to quote a real scholar, of a tafsir from an Imam?

Hardly suprising from someone who seems to actually believe that the innovated rituals we see in out religion today were there from the start.

Hence I strongly disagree with any so called “REFORMIST” on SC or in real world who try to reform Shia Youth by pretending to reform Shia aqaid and rituals. There is nothing wrong with Shia aqaid and rituals. These aqaid and rituals are, in fact, the strongest by hundreds of magnitude from any other world religions and ideologies combined. Perseverance of Shia Islam aqaid and rituals since the past 1453 years is a testimony to this claim.

http://www.shiachat....t/page__st__100

But anyway, this is what is being said here, that the Qur'an was revealed on the nigth of Qadr in one go, and then again over the course of the years.

Proofs:

tafsir here: http://www.tashayyu....ashayyu/al-qadr

And this is what shaykh Sadooq, who is a scholar said about it:

CHAPTER 31

THE BELIEF CONCERNING THE REVELATION

OF THE QUR'AN IN THE NIGHT OF POWER 219

Says the Shaykh Abu Ja'far: Our belief concerning this is that the Qur'an was sent down in one lot, in the month of Ramadan, on the Night of Power (Laylatu l Qadr) (first) to al-Baytu'l-Ma'mur.220 And then it was revealed in the space of twenty 221 years from the Baytu'l Ma'mur (to the Prophet).222

shi'ite creed, page 75

http://www.wofis.com...s.aspx?bookID=4

Just a note of caution - There is reason that you are required in Islam to learn "deen" from "Rasikhoon fil Ilm" [from the door of knowledge to the city of knowledge] and not from those recently converted Shias who read half hadith here, half ayat there, can't even comprehend the events, environment, language, usage; the hollistic frame of reference and give there "aqeeda" fatwas on SC.

Does this also apply to Sadooq?

Another scholar though, shaykh al-mufeed does say that Sadooq was mistaken.

I can't copy paste the pdf properly, but feel free to read his opinion on it, and then give us your feed back.

emendation of a shi'ite creed, p.80 http://mubahilatv.co...id-294-cid-172/

He says that the tradition relied upon by Sadooq is a ahad tradition, and that the qur'an was never revealed in one go, rather bit by bit.

And after reading through al-mufeed's view, in many ways it makes more sense than sadooq's.

al-Mufeed's view is backed up by verses such as this one:

The hypocrites fear lest a chapter should be sent down to them telling them plainly of what is in their hearts. Say: Go on mocking, surely Allah will bring forth what you fear. (9:64)

So it was revealed all in one go, this verse wouldn't mean much

Just a note of caution - There is reason that you are required in Islam to learn "deen" from "Rasikhoon fil Ilm" [from the door of knowledge to the city of knowledge] and not from those recently converted Shias who read half hadith here, half ayat there, can't even comprehend the events, environment, language, usage; the hollistic frame of reference and give there "aqeeda" fatwas on SC.

So that applies to al-mufeed as well then? Two of our greatest scholars don't get the 'waiting for him' seal of approval, how sad

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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These were Fallible views not of Masoomeen(as).I wonder when you don't find answers you people start calling it non sense,qiyaas,and new Religion.Did Sadooq or Mufeed give any Masoom(as)'s view to substantiate their opinions?

If it was so then why Allah said 'in one night',why He left ambiguity in this matter,do you have any narration to back up your point,or is this non sense from yourself?

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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These were Fallible views not of Masoomeen(as).I wonder when you don't find answers you people start calling it non sense,qiyaas,and new Religion.Did Sadooq or Mufeed give any Masoom(as)'s view to substantiate their opinions?

If it was so then why Allah said 'in one night',why He left ambiguity in this matter,do you have any narration to back up your point,or is this non sense from yourself?

Read through their books, and see their reasons, al-mufeed uses the Qur'an, and the narrations are in the link to the tafsir.

Where are your proofs? None, nor you, nor your friend provided any, just your own views

Unless you can show a hadith to back up your claim or a scholar of the level of the two above, you need to stop talking, it's getting embarassing now.

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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It really does n't matter whether you are being given narrations or not.Bro.Muhib Ali gives you narrations and you reject them on the basis of your loads of conjectures.Have you analyzed your gibberish post in his response.Where were narrations in his response,yes please stop its getting embarrassing now.

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It really does n't matter whether you are being given narrations or not.Bro.Muhib Ali gives you narrations and you reject them on the basis of your loads of conjectures.Have you analyzed your gibberish post in his response.Where were narrations in his response,yes please stop its getting embarrassing now.

This was my reply, it was quite clear to everyone, even he didn't reply to it, beacuse he knew what he did was wrong

With this last narration, you have shot yourself in the foot on so many levels. Firstly, it was a big mistake to put the grading for the authenticity of the two other narrations that have little to do with the point at hand, because there can be no doubt in the mind of any reader that this proves this narration is not authentic, the question is how weak is it?

Secondly, is this hadith really hujja on you? This is the third different version I have seen you give for the birth of an imam, i've seen you twice quote the one in which, when the Imam is born,he recites the shahadatayn. Then in order to prove that when the Imam is born, he also recites the third shahada, you quote the hadith from kamal al-deen, in which when the imam is born he says salaam to all his forefathers or just to Imam Ali عليه السلام? Now another discussion has come about, and you have quoted yet another version of the birth, that you know is not authentic. In the chapter you took the hadith from (al-kafi,vol.1,chp.93), there are 8 narrations and only one has the matn of the unauthentic one you quoted.

Thirdly, here are a list of some of the chapter that you had to skip over to get to chapter 93, and produce the hadith you know is not authenitc

chp.32: a'immah عليه السلام, are the heirs of the knowledge inherited on from the other

chp.33: The Imam (a) inherited the knowledge of the Holy Prophet (s), and all the Prophets and Successors before them

chp.42: a'immah عليه السلام, receive additional (knowledge) every friday night

chp.43: if a'immah عليه السلام, did not receive new knowledge their previous knowledge would be depleted

chp.46: if a'immah (a) whish to know, they are given such knowledge

chp.49: Allah (swt) did not teach anything to His Messenger but that He commanded Him to teach such knowledge to Amir al-Mu'minin, and he was his partner in knowledge

I have things to do, and don't have time to go through all of them, but went up to chapter 49! There is still a long way to go to get to 93 (and we both know there are some more to prove my point) This shows complete and utter intellectual dishonesty on your part, as you must have surely read through these, and known there were many, many narrations indicating on knowledge being increased at points through the Imams life, yet you ignore them and produce this hadith which claims they take possession of "all the knowledge" at birth.

There is no point me commenting further, I think my point had been made, but I ask you, and karim and waiting for him, are you really will to throw out the 1000 door hadith and countless others to cling to this ghali concept that the Imams knew everything at birth? All for the sake of a hadith whose chain of narrator is not authentic.

Show me what is wrong with this answer.

Kaniz, you have been exposed once again as as someone who twists clear verses to suit her desires, and your replies are quite frankly childish, all you are doing is repeating back to me what I say to you.

May Allah guide you

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And tell us please the two links which you gave,on which page the relevant narrations are? Now for sake of one thread,should we read whole book right now.This is not a way to give link of whole book to find one thing.

This was my reply, it was quite clear to everyone, even he didn't reply to it, beacuse he knew what he did was wrong

Show me what is wrong with this answer.

Kaniz, you have been exposed once again as as someone who twists clear verses to suit her desires, and your replies are quite frankly childish, all you are doing is repeating back to me what I say to you.

May Allah guide you

You ignored the first two,and jumped on three,because if Syeda Fatima(as) is knowledgeable by birth,how comes Aimma(as) are not.You started discussing other narrations about birth,though these ones were not denying them,and there is lot more but forget it.Please tell us the pg.num on two links which you gave,where the narrations are?

You are the people who need nothing to be exposed about them,everyone with true Emaan understands you.May Allah guide you.

Childish? Who is acting like a child,a stubborn one?

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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And tell us please the two links which you gave,on which page the relevant narrations are? Now for sake of one thread,should we read whole book right now.This is not a way to give link of whole book to find one thing.

Subhan Allah, you did not even read the link, yet you keep arguing, this is my last post on this, but why do you even care if there are narrations? You just make your own up (sorry, that's that other 'person' from your 'group') - you only twist them and see what you want to

Tafsir Tabari: Ibn al-Muthanna narrated to us. He said: `Abd al-A`la narrated to me. He said: Dawud narrated to us from `Ikrama from Ibn `Abbas. He said: The Quran was sent down all of it all at once in the Night of Qadr in Ramadan to the lower heaven (as-sama ad-dunya). So when Allah would intend to bring about something in the Earth, He would send it down from it until He assembled it.

this is a hadith to back up al-mufeed's view

Ya`qub narrated to us. He said: Ibn `Ulayya narrated to us from Dawud from ash-Shu`bi regarding His saying “Verily We sent it down in the Night of Qadr” He said: It has reached us that the Quran was sent down all at once to the lower heaven.

He said: Jarir narrated to us from Mansur from Sa`id b. Jubayr from Ibn `Abbas regarding His saying “Verily We sent it down in the Night of Qadr” He said: The Quran was sent down all at once in the Night of Qadr to the lower heaven, and it was at the locale of the stars. So Allah would send it down upon His Messenger, part of it after part. Then he recited “And they say: Why has not the Quran been sent down to him all at once? Thus, that We may stablish your heart by it and We have arranged it in arranging.”

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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Am i creating new religion.Well then go to Qum,and Najaf and preach your ideologies there,you 'll get to know soon who is creating new religion.You handful of Shiachatters are those who are trying to create new religion,not the mainstream Shia Islam.Your ideologies are exactly opposite to ninety percent Shias in the world yet putting this allegation on me? Its ridiculous.

When you people get frustrated and find no answers then start talking gibberish.

You've been to Qum and Najaf and preached your ideologies to confirm that your personal views are correct; and all the people here giving you Allaah's (swt) words and the ma'sumeen's (as) words are incorrect?

Prophet(saww) prophesized several times that Karbala is going to happen,and also told the fate of His grandson(as).Still Imam Hussain(as) tried to save them from this great sin,so did He doubt the words of His grandfather(saww)?when He was preaching those beasts.

The will sent from the heavens to RasulAllaah (pbuh) on his deathbed had directions for 'Imaam Hussain (as) to go out and fight in the name of Allaah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

From al Kaafi, Volume 1, Kitaab al Hujja, Chapter 61: ‘A’immah never did and would not do anything except because of the covenant of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, and a command from Him, and they did not go beyond such limits;

Hadeeth #1; Muhammad ibn Yahya and al-Husayn ibn Muhammad have narrated from Ja‘far ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn al-Husayn ibn Ali from Isma‘il ibn Mihran from abu Jamila from Mu‘adh ibn Kathir from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following:

The will came from the heavens to Muhammad in a book (written) form. Nothing came to Muhammad from the heavens in a written sealed document form except the will. Jibril (Gabriel peace be on him) said, ‘O Muhammad this is your will to your followers about your family. The Messenger of Allah asked, ‘Which family of mine O Jibril.’ Jibril replied, ‘The one whom Allah has granted nobility among them (your family) and his descendants so they inherit knowledge of prophecy as Abraham left it (knowledge) as his legacy. This legacy of Abraham is for Ali and your descendents from his lineage.’

“The Imam said, ‘The document had several seals on it.’ He further said, ‘Ali opened the first seal and followed the instructions therein. Then al-Hassan opened the second seal and followed the commandments and instructions therein. When al-Hassan passed away then al-Husayn opened the third seal and found therein instruction that said, ‘Fight to do away with the enemy and be murdered and rise up (against the enemy) with a group of people for martyrdom. There will not be any martyrdom for them without you.’ The Imam said, ‘Al-Husayn followed the instructions (entirely) and when he left this world he delivered it to Ali ibn al-Husayn just before his martyrdom...” [hadeeth continues]

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Subhan Allah, you did not even read the link, yet you keep arguing, this is my last post on this, but why do you even care if there are narrations? You just make your own up (sorry, that's that other 'person' from your 'group') - you only twist them and see what you want to

Tafsir Tabari: Ibn al-Muthanna narrated to us. He said: `Abd al-A`la narrated to me. He said: Dawud narrated to us from `Ikrama from Ibn `Abbas. He said: The Quran was sent down all of it all at once in the Night of Qadr in Ramadan to the lower heaven (as-sama ad-dunya). So when Allah would intend to bring about something in the Earth, He would send it down from it until He assembled it.

this is a hadith to back up al-mufeed's view

Ya`qub narrated to us. He said: Ibn `Ulayya narrated to us from Dawud from ash-Shu`bi regarding His saying “Verily We sent it down in the Night of Qadr” He said: It has reached us that the Quran was sent down all at once to the lower heaven.

He said: Jarir narrated to us from Mansur from Sa`id b. Jubayr from Ibn `Abbas regarding His saying “Verily We sent it down in the Night of Qadr” He said: The Quran was sent down all at once in the Night of Qadr to the lower heaven, and it was at the locale of the stars. So Allah would send it down upon His Messenger, part of it after part. Then he recited “And they say: Why has not the Quran been sent down to him all at once? Thus, that We may stablish your heart by it and We have arranged it in arranging.”

I would have answered you but i don't want to drag it on,since you won't be replying.

You've been to Qum and Najaf and preached your ideologies to confirm that your personal views are correct; and all the people here giving you Allaah's (swt) words and the ma'sumeen's (as) words are incorrect?

The will sent from the heavens to RasulAllaah (pbuh) on his deathbed had directions for 'Imaam Hussain (as) to go out and fight in the name of Allaah سبحانه وتعالى.

From al Kaafi, Volume 1, Kitaab al Hujja, Chapter 61: ‘A’immah never did and would not do anything except because of the covenant of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, and a command from Him, and they did not go beyond such limits;

Hadeeth #1; Muhammad ibn Yahya and al-Husayn ibn Muhammad have narrated from Ja‘far ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn al-Husayn ibn Ali from Isma‘il ibn Mihran from abu Jamila from Mu‘adh ibn Kathir from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following:

The will came from the heavens to Muhammad in a book (written) form. Nothing came to Muhammad from the heavens in a written sealed document form except the will. Jibril (Gabriel peace be on him) said, ‘O Muhammad this is your will to your followers about your family. The Messenger of Allah asked, ‘Which family of mine O Jibril.’ Jibril replied, ‘The one whom Allah has granted nobility among them (your family) and his descendants so they inherit knowledge of prophecy as Abraham left it (knowledge) as his legacy. This legacy of Abraham is for Ali and your descendents from his lineage.’

“The Imam said, ‘The document had several seals on it.’ He further said, ‘Ali opened the first seal and followed the instructions therein. Then al-Hassan opened the second seal and followed the commandments and instructions therein. When al-Hassan passed away then al-Husayn opened the third seal and found therein instruction that said, ‘Fight to do away with the enemy and be murdered and rise up (against the enemy) with a group of people for martyrdom. There will not be any martyrdom for them without you.’ The Imam said, ‘Al-Husayn followed the instructions (entirely) and when he left this world he delivered it to Ali ibn al-Husayn just before his martyrdom...” [hadeeth continues]

Who asked the source of command here,go read the post i was replying to,and in which context i referred to Karbala.Imam(as) knew He will be slaughtered yet He was preaching to them,so did he disbelieve His grandfather if He made such efforts? That was what i ask him to his point,where are you connecting it?

I have been to Qum but not for studies but know what majority believe there,we have representatives of Khamenei,and Sistani here too,know more about the people there.

Anyways the thing is not about people,we also gave you words of Masoomeen(as),and Ayaat but they did n't suit your beliefs.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Who asked the source of command here,go read the post i was replying to,and in which context i referred to Karbala.Imam(as) knew He will be slaughtered yet He was preaching to them,so did he disbelieve His grandfather if He made such efforts? That was what i ask him to his point,where are you connecting it?

I have been to Qum but not for studies but know what majority believe there,we have representatives of Khamenei,and Sistani here too,know more about the people there.

Anyways the thing is not about people,we also gave you words of Masoomeen(as),and Ayaat but they did n't suit your beliefs.

I don't believe your question has any relevance, because 'Imaam al Hussain (as) preaching to the 'Umawi forces doesn't mean he disbelieved in RasulAllaah's (pbuh) words; the 'Imaam (as) could be addressing those individuals who would perhaps listen to his words and retreat from the opposing army. Hurr bin Yazeed (ra) did and the hadeeth I posted earlier does instruct the 'Imaam (as) to rise with a group of people; the 'Imaam (as) could have easily been addressing him.

You have been to Qum, and by that you can confidently say the beliefs you are preaching are in line with the majority of the scholars of Qum? Do you understand where we get our religion from? From the Quraan and the sayings of the ma'sumeen (as). Can you ask the scholars who are telling you your beliefs to back them up explicitly with the Quraan and the ahaadeeth of the ma'sumeen (as)?

What words of the ma'sumeen (as) or ayaa from the Quraan have you given? I went through all of your posts on this thread and have found none. All you do is make passing references but can not back them up with a hadeeth. If you intended their meaning, why don't you ask for someone to find which hadeeth you are referring to and then we can go from there; instead of having to go back and forth with hadeeth then your opinion, then hadeeth again followed by your opinion. It solves nothing.

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I don't believe your question has any relevance, because 'Imaam al Hussain (as) preaching to the 'Umawi forces doesn't mean he disbelieved in RasulAllaah's (pbuh) words; the 'Imaam (as) could be addressing those individuals who would perhaps listen to his words and retreat from the opposing army. Hurr bin Yazeed (ra) did and the hadeeth I posted earlier does instruct the 'Imaam (as) to rise with a group of people; the 'Imaam (as) could have easily been addressing him.

You have been to Qum, and by that you can confidently say the beliefs you are preaching are in line with the majority of the scholars of Qum? Do you understand where we get our religion from? From the Quraan and the sayings of the ma'sumeen (as). Can you ask the scholars who are telling you your beliefs to back them up explicitly with the Quraan and the ahaadeeth of the ma'sumeen (as)?

What words of the ma'sumeen (as) or ayaa from the Quraan have you given? I went through all of your posts on this thread and have found none. All you do is make passing references but can not back them up with a hadeeth. If you intended their meaning, why don't you ask for someone to find which hadeeth you are referring to and then we can go from there; instead of having to go back and forth with hadeeth then your opinion, then hadeeth again followed by your opinion. It solves nothing.

Ok lets get back to the topic,first of all the biggest proof was Hadees of Imam Ali(as) being the door of knowledge but everybody ignores it as nothing.And that is not mere opinion of mine to say that Imams(as) can't be deprived of any knowledge of deen,if it was so how could they remain infallible? When one don't know fiqhi issue he/she can err,was this mere opinion for you?

And it is in Nehj ul Balagha where Imam Ali(as) quoted Rasool Allah(saww) that He said what i see you see,what i hear you hear,now i don't remember the pg.num but it is there.So when He was the partner of His knowledge then how was He unaware of Ahkaam e ilaahi,i am not referring to Israr e Ilaahi here so no need for reminder of 1000 doors Hadees.Though to open further thousand doors from each,one needs knowledge already.Anyways,i wonder when people refer to other classical works why they forget Nehj ul Balagha,just because it does n't suit their beliefs?

To believe in that some Sharia ruling Imam was not aware of(nauzbillah) is equal to contradicting their Ismaa,remember we are not discussing power of unseen here but their command over Sharia law,what will be left then?

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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To believe in that some Sharia ruling Imam was not aware of(nauzbillah) is equal to contradicting their Ismaa,remember we are not discussing power of unseen here but their command over Sharia law,what will be left then?

But why do you believe that the notion of isma of the aimmah in their roles as aimmah requires them to always know everything, even about fiqh? It doesn't follow. Their being physically limited children at some point doesn't attack their isma as needed to fulfill their later roles. You're over-extrapolating here.

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But why do you believe that the notion of isma of the aimmah in their roles as aimmah requires them to always know everything, even about fiqh? It doesn't follow. Their being physically limited children at some point doesn't attack their isma as needed to fulfill their later roles. You're over-extrapolating here.

Do you find any logic in your point? When one is not aware of every Fiqh ruling how will He save Himself from error? Then where does Isma goes?This is mentioned in Ayoon Akhbar ul Raza(as) by Sadooq,vol.1 pg174,ch.20

1- Imam Riza (a.s.) says in a long tradition that:

[4]

ان الانبیاء و الائمه یوفقهم الله و یوتیهم من مخزون علمه و حکمه ما لا یوتیه غیرهم فیکون علمهم فوق کل علم اهل زمانهم فی قوله –عزوجل– افمن یهدی الی الحق

."

“Surely Allah makes prophets and leaders successful and give an amount of His treasury of knowledge and wisdom to them that He does not give it to others, therefore their knowledge is superior to the knowledge of people of their age. This matter has been mentioned in the statement of the Almighty and the Glorious Allah: “

افمن یهدی الی الحق

” “Is He then Who guides to the truth…”

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I thought my earlier post taking help from Quran would have "fixed" the "closet Wahhabis" but no, the ayat I pointed to did not suit them and they rejected it all calling it nonsense.

Watch the "closet Wahhabis" ignoring below quotes from Nahjulbalagha or refuting it all together because it does not match their predetermined agenda.

1. Nahjulbalagha sermon - 191 - Imam Ali (as) describing himself, of the event when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) received his first command, the time when Imam Ali (as) was 10 or 11 years old.

"When the revelation descended on the Prophet of Allah - peace and blessing of Allah be upon him and his descendants - I heard the moan of Satan. I said, "O' Prophet of Allah, what is this moan?" and he replied, "This is Satan who has lost all hope of being worshipped. O' `Ali, you see all that I see and you hear all that I hear, except that you are not a Prophet, but you are a vicegerent and you are surely on (the path of) virtue."

2. Nahjulbalagha sermon - 119 - about the knowledge of Ahlulbayt (as)

"By Allah, I have Knowledge of the conveyance of messages, fulfilment of promises and of entire expressions. We the people of the house (of the Prophet - Ahlu'l-bayt) possess the doors of wisdom and light of governance. Beware that the paths of religion are one and its highways are straight. He who follows them achieves (the aim) and secures (the objective). And he who stood away from it went astray and incurred repentance."

3. Nahjulbalagha sermon - 209 - someone asked Ameer ul Momineen (as) about made up Hadith etc. (a sort of fit for many on SC)

Certainly what is current among the people is both right and wrong, true and false, repealing and repealed, general and particular, definite and indefinite, exact and surmised. Even during the Prophet's days false sayings had been attributed to him, so much so that he had to say during his sermon that, "Whoever attributes falsehoods to me makes his abode in Hell." Those who relate traditions are of four categories, (2) no more.

First: The lying hypocrites

The hypocrite is a person who makes a show of faith and adopts the appearance of a Muslim; he does not hesitate in sinning nor does he keep aloof from vice; he wilfully attributes false things against the Messenger of Allah - may Allah bless him and his descendants. If people knew that he was a hypocrite and a liar, they would not accept anything from him and would not confirm what he says.

Rather they say that he is the companion of the Prophet, has met him, heard (his sayings) from him and acquired (Knowledge) from him. They therefore accept what he says. Allah too had warned you well about the hypocrites and described them fully to you. They have continued after the Holy Prophet. They gained positions with the leaders of misguidance and callers towards Hell through falsehoods and slanderings. So, they put them in high posts and made them officers over the heads of the people, and amassed wealth through them. People are always with the rulers and after this world, except those to whom Allah affords protection. This is the first of the four categories.

Second: Those who are mistaken

Then there is the individual who heard (a saying) from the Holy Prophet but did not memorise it as it was, but surmised it. He does not lie wilfully. Now, he carries the saying with him and relates it, acts upon it and claims that: "I heard it from the Messenger of Allah." If the Muslims come to know that he has committed a mistake in it, they will not accept it from him, and if he himself knows that he is on the wrong he will give it up.

Third: Those who are ignorant

The third man is he who heard the Prophet ordering to do a thing and later the Prophet refrained the people from doing it, but this man did not know it, or he heard the Prophet refraining people from a thing and later he allowed it, but this man did not know it. In this way he retained in his mind what had been repealed, and did not retain the repealing tradition. If he knew that it had been repealed he would reject it, or if the Muslims knew, when they heard it from him, that it had been repealed they would reject it.

Fourth: Those who memorise truthfully

The last, namely the fourth man, is he who does not speak a lie against Allah or against His Prophet. He hates falsehood out of fear for Allah and respect for the Messenger of Allah, and does not commit mistakes, but retains (in his mind) exactly what he heard (from the Prophet), and he relates it as he heard it without adding anything or omitting anything. He heard the repealing tradition, he retained it and acted upon it, and he heard the repealed tradition and rejected it. He also understands the particular and the general, and he knows the definite and indefinite, and gives everything its due position.

The sayings of the Prophet used to be of two types. One was particular and the other common. Sometimes a man would hear him but he would not know what Allah, the Glorified, meant by it or what the Messenger of Allah meant by it. In this way the listener carries it and memorises it without knowing its meaning and its real intention, or what was its reason. Among the companions of the Messenger of Allah all were not in the habit of putting him questions and ask him the meanings, indeed they always wished that some Bedouin or stranger might come and ask him (peace be upon him) so that they would also listen. Whenever any such thing came before me, I asked him about its meaning and preserved it. These are the reasons and grounds of differences among the people in their traditions.

4. Nahjulbalagha - sermon 237 - this one is about the knowledge of Aimah of Ahlulbayt (as)

"They are life for Knowledge and death for ignorance. Their forbearance tells you of their Knowledge, and their silence of the wisdom of their speaking. They do not go against right nor do they differ (among themselves) about it. They are the pillars of Islam and the asylums of (its) protection. With them right has returned to its position and wrong has left its place and its tongue is severed from its root. They have understood the religion attentively and carefully, not by mere heresy or from relaters, because the relaters of Knowledge are many but its understanders are few."

5. Nahjulbalagha - sermon 143 - about the knowledge of Ahlulbayt (as); a clear refutation of "closet Wahhabis" in the words of Imam Ali (as)

Allah deputed prophets and distinguished them with His revelation. He made them as pleas for Him among His creation, so that there should not remain any excuse for people. He invited people to the right path through a truthful tongue. You should know that Allah fully knows creation. Not that He was not aware of what they concealed from among their hidden secrets and inner feelings, but in order to try them as to whom from among them performs good acts, so that there is reward in respect of good acts and chastisement in respect of evil acts.

Where are those who falsely and unjustly claimed that they are deeply versed in knowledge, as against us, although Allah raised us in position and kept them down, bestowed upon us knowledge but deprived them, and entered us (in the fortress of knowledge) but kept them out. With us guidance is to be sought and blindness (of misguidance) is to be changed into brightness. Surely Imams (divine leaders) will be from the Quraysh. They have been planted in this line through Hashim. It would not suit others nor would others be suitable as heads of affairs.

They have adopted this world and abandoned the next world; left clean water and drunk stinking water. I can almost see their wicked one (1) who committed unlawful acts, associated Himself with them, befriended them and accorded with them till his hair grew grey and his nature acquired their tinge. He proceeded onward emitting foam like a torrential stream not caring whom he drowned, or, like fire in straw, without realising what he burnt.

Where are the minds which seek light from the lamps of guidance, and the eyes which look at minarets of piety? Where are the hearts dedicated to Allah, and devoted to the obedience of Allah? They are all crowding towards worldly vanities and quarrelling over unlawful issues. The ensigns of Paradise and Hell have been raised for them but they have turned their faces away from Paradise and proceeded to Hell by dint of their performances. Allah called them but they showed dislike and ran away. When Satan called them they responded and proceeded (towards him).

He was a child when Prophet(saww) called Him his successor,brother,and vicegerent in Dawat e Zullasheera.Stop clutching to straws please.

No need wasting your breath. These closet wahabies want to interpret Quran, Hadith and actions of Prophet (s) with their predetermined agenda, whatever that might be. Yes Imam Ali (as) was 10/11 yrs old when he was made the successor and the khalifa of the most knowledgeable Person earth has ever seen (pbuh) but all this does not matter for this group of enemies of Ali (as). Any proof you bring would not be enough because it does not suit the agenda of the hatred of Ali (as).

Wassalam.

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To hh

Prophet(saww) prophesized several times that Karbala is going to happen,and also told the fate of His grandson(as).Still Imam Hussain(as) tried to save them from this great sin,so did He doubt the words of His grandfather(saww)?when He was preaching those beasts.

Same applied to your examples,Prophet(saww) had to complete hujja on the world,first by marrying Zainab(as) to zaid so to end discrimination against slaves,then to marry the divorcee to show adopted sons don't become real ones.So what if He knew it would happen.And He took the oath,now it is recorded and world knows how torturous His wives were.

Anyways,when your people get personal with others why don't you feel any pang then? You like their posts with such stuff,but suddenly your principles awaken when someone from opposite side gives some'' healthy advice.''

Adding another couple of examples when a question by an Imam or a masoom does not mean he is doubting the message. So a later revelation in Quran does not mean the prophet or imam did not already know the conclusion.

Example 1. On the night of Hijra, prophet asked imam Ali (as) to sleep on Prophet's bed. Imam inquired form prophet if this action of his will save the life of Prophet (s)? Imam and Prophet both knew already the outcome of this Hijra because the victory had already been promised in many Makkan ayaaat of Quran which had already been relayed to Prophet (pbuh). But imam still asked this for us to be recorded in history and for everybody else to know the significance of this act of Imam Ali (as).

Example 2. On the night of Ashur, Ali Akbar, son of Imam Hussain (as) asking his father if they are on the right path. On hearing his esteemed father's answer, Ali Akbar uttered his famous words of "then I don't care if swords fall upon me or I fall upon the swords". Ali Akbar did not undertake this travel spanning seven and a half months (of roughly 230 days) with imam Hussain (as) only knowing it in the last night of his life that he was on the path of righteousness.

All I could suggest to newly converted phoney would be "reformers" - Think think think x 100 times before saying anything.

Edited by Waiting for HIM

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Salam.

As for the Prophet Muhammad (saww) knowing the Quran even before revelation here is some info on that:

وَلَا تَعْجَلْ بِالْقُرْآنِ مِن قَبْلِ أَن يُقْضَىٰ إِلَيْكَ وَحْيُهُ

"And Be not in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to You." [20:114]

كان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله إذا نزل عليه القرآن بادر بقراء ته قبل تمام نزول الآية والمعنى فأنزل الله عزوجل ولا تعجل بالقرآن من قبل ان يقضى اليك وحيه

"The Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon Him and His Family), came down upon Him the Quran with Recitation before the revealtion of all(complete) verses and its meaning. And Allah (swt) revelead to him, "And Be not in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to You.".

[source: Tafseer Al Qummi, Tafseer Ali bin Ibraheem]

هَٰذَا نَذِيرٌ مِّنَ النُّذُرِ الْأُولَىٰ

"This is a Warner, of the Warners of old" [53:56]

حدثنا بعض اصحابنا عن محمد بن الحسين عن على بن اسباط عن على بن معمر عن ابيه قال سألت ابا عبد الله عليه السلام عن قول الله تبارك وتعالى هذا نذير من النذر الاولى يعنى محمدا صلى الله عليه وآله حيث دعاهم بالاقرار بالله في الذر الأول.

Narrated to us one of our companions, from Muhammad Bin Al-Husayn, from Ali Bin Asbaat, from his father who said:

I asked Abu Abdullah (as) about the Statement of Allah (swt) Blessed and High, "This is a warner of the warners of old" [53:56].

He (as) said, "It means Muhammad (saww), when it was called on them to testify in Allah (swt) when in the shape of particles (the first).

[source: Basaair Al-Darajaat, Vol. 3, Chapter. 14, Hadees. 6]

Similar Narration from Tafseer of Ali bin Ibraheem;

في تفسير على بن ابراهيم حدثنا على بن الحسين عن احمد بن ابى عبدالله عن محمد بن على عن على بن اسباط عن على بن معمر عن أبيه قال : سألت ابا عبدالله عليه السلام عن قول الله عزوجل : هذا نذير من النذر الاولى قال : ان الله تبارك وتعالى لما ذرأ الخلق في الذر الاولى أقامهم صفوفا قدامه ، وبعث الله عزوجل محمدا حيث دعاهم فآمن به قوم وانكره قوم ، فقال الله عزوجل : " هذا نذير من النذر الاولى " يعنى به محمدا صلى الله عليه وآله حيث دعاهم إلى الله عزوجل في الذر الاول

Another Narration from Al-Amali - Sheikh Toosi;

و بهذا الإسناد، عن الحسين، عن المفضل، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام، قال ما بعث الله نبيا أكرم من محمد صلى الله عليه و آله، و لا خلق الله قبله أحدا، و لا أنذر الله خلقه بأحد من خلقه قبل محمد صلى الله عليه و آله، فذلك قوله تعالى »هذا نَذِيرٌ مِنَ النُّذُرِ الْأُولى«، و قال »إِنَّما أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ وَ لِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هادٍ«، فلم يكن قبله مطاع في الخلق، و لا يكون بعده إلى أن تقوم الساعة في كل قرن إلى أن يرث الله الأرض و من عليها

Narrated from Abu Abdillah Al-Sadiq (as) who said, "Allah (swt) has not send any Prophet, more generous than Muhammad (saww), and Allah (swt) did not create any single one before Him. And Allah (swt) did not warn any single one from his creations before Muhammad (saww). And that is the saying of Allah سبحانه وتعالى, "This is a Warner, of the Warners of old" [53:56]......

There are also these narrations:

و قال ع كنت نبيا و آدم بين الماء و الطين

Prophet Muhammad (saww), "I was a Prophet, while Adam (as) was between water and mud".

و قال ع أنا أول الأنبياء خلقا و آخرهم بعثا

Prophet Muhammad (saww), "I am the first of the Prophets to be created and the last to be send."

و قال ع كنت وصيا و آدم بين الماء و الطين

Imam Ali (as), "I was a Wasi (trustee), while Adam (as) was between water and mud.

Again these narrations are in line with the other narrations quoted above.

[source: عوالي اللآلي, Vol. 4 Pg. 121/122]

Wassalam

Edited by muhibb-ali

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Salam.

Have just complied this considering the wide variety of narrations that we have on the knowledge of the Imam's (a.s) and how they get the knowledge:

Will put this one my website also later on.

Sources of the Knowledge of the Imam's (a.s):

1) The knowledge of the Imam's (a.s) is what they inherit from Prophet Muhammad (saww):

It should be known inheritance of knowledge is not inheriting a material thing, hence inheritance of knowledge does not necessarily mean that the Imam's (a.s) did not already know that. Because we have many narrations which prove that the Imam Ali (a.s) had lot of knowledge even in the life of the Prophet Muhammad (saww) and hence this rules our knowledge by inheritance. Now this gives rise to the second source of Imam's (a.s) knowledge.

So the understanding of inheriting the knowledge from the Prophet (saww) mainly indicates that the Imam's (a.s) are the true successors of the Prophet (saww).

2) The knowledge of the Imam's (a.s) as taught/provided/given by Prophet Muhammad (saww):

Again the way I understand this is that the passing/teaching of knowledge from Prophet Muhammad (saww) to the Imam's (as) or from one Imam (a.s) to another is not like what we commonly have among-st ourselves. Simply because if we read narrations which describe the extend of the knowledge of the Imam's (a.s), it would be impossible for it to be taught in the manner a teacher teaches a student. So here the passing by of knowledge is not bound by time or any other constraint. And it will not be possible to limit as to what extend and when the knowledge was passed from one Imam (a.s) to another.

For example, we have a narration with authentic chain of narrators in which Imam Baqir (a.s) says,

"Do you not consider that how would Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, make it obligatory to obey those who possess Divine authority over his servants and then hide from them (a.s) `the news of the heaves and the earth? How would He cut them off of the sources of knowledge that might come to them to maintain their religion?"

Read the complete narration here: http://www.marefatea...dge-of-the-imam

Another narration with authentic chain which says that Imam Hasan (a.s) knows 70,000 languages. Read the narration here: http://www.marefatea...f-imam-hasan-as

We also have many narrations which say that the Imam's (a.s) say somethings when they come on the earth and give the Testimonies. So who taught this to the Imam's (a.s)??

So the question comes who and when was this knowledge given to the Imam's (a.s)??

This gives us another source of the knowledge of the Imam's (a.s)

3) Knowledge provided by Allah (swt):

Here we have many narrations which say that the Imam's (a.s) have knowledge provided by Allah (swt) from their very creation and from their very birth.

علي بن محمد، عن سهل بن زياد، عن موسى بن القاسم بن معاوية، ومحمد بن يحيى، عن العمركي بن علي جميعا، عن علي بن جعفر، عن أبي الحسن موسى عليه السلام قال: قال أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: إن الله عزوجل خلقنا فأحسن خلقنا، وصورنا فأحسن صورنا، وجعلنا خزانه في سمائه وأرضه، ولنا نطقت الشجرة وبعبادتنا عبد الله عزوجل، ولولانا ما عبدالله

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Musa ibn al-Qasim ibn Mu‘awiya and Muhammad ibn Yahya from al-‘Amrakiy ibn Ali altogether from Ali ibn Ja'far from abu al-Hassan Musa (a.s.) who has said the following.

Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) has said, ‘Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, created us and He made our creation the best. He formed us and made our the best. He made us the treasurers of in His heavens and His earth. For us the tree spoke and with our worship Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is worshiped. Had we not been in existence Allah would not have been worshiped.

[source: Al-Kafi, Vol. 1 Pg. 193]

[Note: Authentic Hadees as per Chain of narrations. Mirat Al-Uqool - Allama Majlisi Vol. 2, Pg. 349]

[For the part in red in the above narration: It proves that the AhlulBait (a.s) are the treasurers of Allah (swt) in the heavens and the earth. And there are multiple narrations which say that the treasure of Allah is the knowledge of Allah سبحانه وتعالى. Am quoting a couple of narrations here to prove this.

حدثنا احمد بن الحسين بن سعيد عن على بن اسباط عن ابيه اسباط عن سورة بن آليب قال قال لى أبو جعفر عليه السلام والله انا لخزان الله في سمائه وارضه لا على ذهب ولا على فضة الا على علمه.

Narrated to us Ahmad Bin Al-Husayn Bin Saeed, from Ali Bin Sabaat, from his father Asbaat, from Sowrat Bin Kaleyb who said:

Abu Ja’far (a.s) said to me: ‘By Allah سبحانه وتعالى, I am the Treasurer for Allah in His heaven and in His Earth, not for gold and not for silver, but of His Knowledge".

[source: Basaair Al-Darajaat, Vol. 2, Chapter. 19, Hadees. 14]

حدثنا احمد بن محمد عن على بن الحكم عن داود العجلى عن زرارة عن حمران عن ابى جعفر عليه السلام قال ان الله تبارك وتعالى اخذ الميثاق على اولى العزم انى ربكم ومحمد رسولي وعلى امير المؤمنين عليه السلام واوصيائه من بعده ولاة امرى وخزان علمي وان المهدى انتصر به لدينى.

Narrated to us Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Ali Bin Al-Hakam, from Dawood Al-Ajaly, from Zarara, from Hamraan, who has said, Abu Ja’far (a.s) having said:

"Surely Allahazwj Blessed and High Took the covenant from the Determined Ones (Ulul Azm Prophets); “I am your Lord, and Muhammad (saww) is My Messenger, and Ali (a.s) Amir-ul-Momineen and his successors after him are the Masters of My Command (Wali Ul Amr), and Treasurers of My Knowledge, and through the Mahdi (atfs), My Religion will triumph".

[source: Basaair Al-Darajaat, Vol. 2, Chapter. 19, Hadees. 14]

Chain of narrators would be of no concern here, because the same meaning (matn) has come in 16 narrations. Read Basaair Al-Darajaat, Vol. 2, Chapter. 19 for more at the following link: www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/hadith/basaer/maktaba/Hadith/Bsaer/a117.htm

[We see in the above narrations that Allah (swt) made them the treasurers of his Knowledge when creating them declared them as the treasurers while taking the covenant.]

الحسين [عن محمد] بن عبدالله، بن محمد بن سنان، عن المفضل، عن جابر ابن يزيد قال: قال لي أبوجعفر عليه السلام: يا جابر إن الله أول ما خلق خلق محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وعترته الهداة المهتدين، فكانوا أشباح نور بين يدي الله، قلت: وما الاشباح؟ قال: ظل النور أبدان نورانية بلا أرواح وكان مؤيدا بروح واحدة وهي روح القدس، فبه كان يعبد الله، وعترته(2) ولذلك خلقهم حلماء، علماء، بررة، أصفياء، يعبدون الله بالصلاة والصوم والسجود والتسبيح والتهليل، ويصلون الصلوات ويحجون ويصومون.

Al-Husayn has narrated from (Muhammad) ibn 'Abdallah from Muhammad ibn Sinan from al-Mufaddal from Jabir ibn Yazid who has said the following.

"Abu Ja'far (a.s.) said to me, 'O Jabir, the first thing that Allah created was Muhammad (saww) and his offspring who are the rightly guided guides. They existed in 'Ashabah (form ) of light in the presence of Allah."

I then asked,"What is 'Ashabah?"

The Imam (a.s.) said, "It is the shadow of light, the lighting bodies without the spirit. It was supported by one spirit which is the Holy spirit. In that state he and his offspring worshipped Allah and for this reason He created them forbearing scholars, conscientious pure one who worship Allah through prayer, fasting, prostration, speaking of His Glory and the acknowledgment that He is the only Lord. They perform prayers, perform Hajj and fast."

[source:Al-Kafi by Kulayni,Vol 1,Pg 442, H 10 ]

[We again see in the above narration which talks about the creation of Prophet Muhammad (saww) and the AhlulBait (as) and its very clear that Allah (swt) created them as Scholars (Ulama)]

The chain of narrators should not be a problem here again as the content of this narration is repeated in various other narrations also.

Narrated from Imam Jafar As-Sadiq (a.s):

[Quoting only a part of the narration here]

وإذا وقع من بطن امه وقع واضعا يديه على الارض رافعا رأسه إلى السماء فأما وضعه يديه على الارض فإنه يقبض كل علم لله أنزله من السماء إلى الارض وأما رفعه رأسه إلى السماء فان مناديا ينادي به من بطنان العرش من قبل رب العزة من الافق الاعلى باسمه واسم أبيه يقول: يا فلان بن فلان اثبت تثبت، فلعظيم ما خلقتك أنت صفوتي من خلقي وموضع سري وعيبة علمي وأميني على وحيي وخليفتي في أرضي، لك ولمن تولاك أوجبت رحمتي ومنحت جناني وأحللت جواري، ثم وعزتي وجلالي لاصلين من عاداك أشد عذابي وإن وسعت عليه في دنياي من سعة رزقي فإذا انقضى الصوت - صوت المنادي - أجابه هو واضعا يديه رافعا رأسه إلى السماء يقول " شهد الله أنه لا إله إلا هو والملائكة واولوا العلم قائما بالقسط لا إله إلا هو العزيز الحكيم " قال: فإذا قال ذلك أعطاه الله العلم الاول والعلم الآخر واستحق زيارة الروح في ليلة القد

When he comes out of his mothers womb he places his hands on the floor and raises his head to the sky. Placing his hands on earth is an indication of his taking possession of all the knowledge of Allah that is sent from the heavens to earth. Raising his head to the sky is that because a caller from inside the Throne calls him from the high horizon with his name and the name of his father. It is for (on behalf of) the Lord, the Most Majestic, the Most Gracious, saying, "O so and so, son of so and so, be firm so that you would be established. For the great purpose that I have created you, you are my chosen one in my creatures. You are the keeper of My secrets, the container of My knowledge, the trustee of My inspiration and My deputy and representative on earth. I have made it necessary for My blessings and mercy to reach you and those who would love you (and acknowledge your Divine Authority). I have gifted My paradise and given a place near Myself to you and to them. Also, by My Majesty and Grace, I will make your enemies to feel the heat of My punishment even though I may have given them expanded prosperity in My world such as prosperity in their livelihood. When the call of caller ends he responds to it by placing his hands on the ground and raising his head to the sky and says the following.

"Allah Himself testifies that He is the only Lord. The angels and the men of knowledge and justice testify that Allah is the only Lord, the Majestic, and All-wise." (3:18)

The Imam said, "When he says this, Allah grants him the knowledge of the first and the knowledge of the last the qualification to be visited by the spirit in the nights of destiny."

[source: Al-Kafi, Kitab Al-Hujja, Chapter: 93, Hadees. 1]

Edited by muhibb-ali

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So it has been established that al-sadooq and al-mufeed were not of the opinion that the Prophet (s) was born knowing the whole Qur'an.

Add allama Tabataba'i to that list

About his verse (which should be enough to show that the Prophet (s) wasn't born knowning it)

Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers. (2:97)

he says in al-mizan:

QUR'AN: Say: "Whoever is the enemy of Gabriel - for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's Command: Apparently the verse was revealed as a reply to something the Jews had said - they arrogantly refused to believe in what was revealed to the Apostle of Allah (s.a.w.), on the pretext that they were enemies of Gabriel who had the charge of bringing the revelation to Muhammad (s.a.w.). Allah replied to them in two verses - concerning the Qur'an and Gabriel both. Also the traditions giving the background of the verses confirm it. The verses contain four replies to their arrogance in denial of the Qur'an:

First: Gabriel has revealed the Qur'an to your heart by Allah's Command, not by his own wish. Therefore, even if they feel enmity towards Gabriel, it should not prevent them from believing in a revelation sent down by Allah's Command.

Second: The Qur'an verifies the Divine Book which was revealed before it and which they have in their hands. How can they believe in a book and deny another which verifies it?

Third: The Qur'an is a guidance for those who believe in it.

Fourth: It is also a good news for the believers. How can a sane person turn his face away from guidance and good news, even if it is brought to him by a supposed enemy of his?

So far as their professed enmity towards Gabriel was concerned, they were replied as follows:

Gabriel is one of the angels of Allah; he has no authority except to follow and obey the Divine Command - just like Michael and other angels. They are honored servants of Allah; they do not disobey His command, and they do as they are told. Likewise, the apostles of Allah have no authority except by Allah and from Allah. To have enmity towards them, to harbor hatred for them is enmity and hatred towards Allah Himself. Therefore, whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Gabriel and Michael, so surely Allah is his enemy.

All these replies are clearly given in these two verses.

QUR'AN: for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's Command: Apparently, it should have been "to my heart"; instead, it says, "to your heart." The pronoun has been changed from the first to the second person to draw attention to an important factor: So far as the revelation of the Qur'an is concerned, neither Gabriel has any choice or authority of his own in bringing it down (he is subject to the Divine command, which he faithfully carries out) nor the Apostle of Allah (s.a.w.) has any choice or authority of his own in receiving it and conveying it to his ummah; his heart is the receptacle of revelation, on which he has no control at all and which he is bound to convey to his people.

http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/

Does shaykh makarem shirazi clear up the confusion with his commentary on it?

When the prophet emigrated to Medina; one of the Jewish Rabbis, namd IBN-SURIA, accompanied by a group of his followers, paid a visit to the prophet Mohammad Mustafa and raised many questions such as: ``How did the prophet sleep?'' to which the prophet answered: ``My eyes sleep, while my heart is awake!''

They finally asked another question; adding that if they got the right answer for it, they would be Muslims.

What is your question? asked them the prophet.

We want to know who brings the revelations down to your heart? said IBN_SURIA. ``It is the Arch angel GABRIEL who does that.'' the prophet answered.

A long pause! Some pretence to pondering, and then the RABBI said: ``GABRIEL is our enemy and his vision inspires fear and terror of war! But Michael is a friend of us! If he was the medium of your inspirations, we could easily submit, and adhere to your revelations and religion''

http://makarem.ir/we...=16&itg=13&s=ca

No he doesn't.

So just to recap, so everyone can see what 'waiting for him' thinks of scholars such as sadooq, mufeed, tabataba'i, and I guess we can include makarem shirazi in that, because he doesn't refute this deviance is:

Just a note of caution - There is reason that you are required in Islam to learn "deen" from "Rasikhoon fil Ilm" [from the door of knowledge to the city of knowledge] and not from those recently converted Shias who read half hadith here, half ayat there, can't even comprehend the events, environment, language, usage; the hollistic frame of reference and give there "aqeeda" fatwas on SC.

I thought my earlier post taking help from Quran would have "fixed" the "closet Wahhabis" but no, the ayat I pointed to did not suit them and they rejected it all calling it nonsense.

Watch the "closet Wahhabis" ignoring below quotes from Nahjulbalagha or refuting it all together because it does not match their predetermined agenda.

Tell us, does that also apply to the scholars who ignored what is in nahjul balagha?

And yes, what you said that post was nonsense, because you just made it up, or heard it from your local zakir. Then you try to justify your beliefs, completely ignoring the views of prominent scholars by giving quotes such as this:

"When the revelation descended on the Prophet of Allah - peace and blessing of Allah be upon him and his descendants - I heard the moan of Satan. I said, "O' Prophet of Allah, what is this moan?" and he replied, "This is Satan who has lost all hope of being worshipped. O' `Ali, you see all that I see and you hear all that I hear, except that you are not a Prophet, but you are a vicegerent and you are surely on (the path of) virtue."

This only proves that revelation was sent down whilst Imam Ali (a) was alive, showing that the Prophet (s) didn't know it all from birth, nor did the Imam عليه السلام.

But it is quite cute the way you try to give it your own little twist by changing the word 'revelation' to 'command' - no doubt to then try to claim that it was the 'command' for which verse to tell the people about.

1. Nahjulbalagha sermon - 191 - Imam Ali (as) describing himself, of the event when Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) received his first command, the time when Imam Ali (as) was 10 or 11 years old.

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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Even the shirazis view the verse in the sense that Jibreel (a) brought the Qur'an down

Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers. (2:97)

...Who is an enemy to Jibrịl, for indeed he took it down upon thy heart... ‘It’ means the Quran.

...with Allah's permission... It was not of his own accord.

...confirming that before it,... That is, the Torah.

...as guidance and glad tidings for the believers?' Therefore, what was the crime of Jibrịl, bliss be upon him, that they should take him as an enemy and not believe in the book he brought down.

http://imamshirazi.c...0al-baqara.html

Did Jibreel (a) bring it into the Prophet (s)'s heart whilst he was still inside his mother then?

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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Where is nader zaveri when you need him? This ghali from india who consistently makes long posts of narrations (from dubious sources at times) is a constant eyesore.

Actually muqassireen from west are biggest eye sores,and a MOMIN from India who is destroying your agendas would be a eye sore for you people,but don't worry Shi'ism will survive inshAllah no matter what you do,its your aim since 14 centuries nothing has happened,and nothing will InshAllah.

Even the shirazis view the verse in the sense that Jibreel (a) brought the Qur'an down

Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers. (2:97)

Did Jibreel (a) bring it into the Prophet (s)'s heart whilst he was still inside his mother then?

Jibrael brought it does n't show the Prophet(saww) did n't know the Quran before.Jebreil brought Injeel too,then which Book Esa(as) was talking about? And please stop dragging the name of Ayatollah Naser Makarem Shirazi,he believes in all what we believe and read His website with open eyes,He has defended Prophet(saww),and Ali(as) being created before Adam(as),their knowledge since childhood,tawassaul and every other thing you deny,so he must be a ghaali as per your description so avoid alleging our Ulema of something which they did n't mean. Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Actually muqassireen from west are biggest eye sores,and a MOMIN from India who is destroying your agendas would be a eye sore for you people,but don't worry Shi'ism will survive inshAllah no matter what you do,its your aim since 14 centuries nothing has happened,and nothing will InshAllah.

Don't flatter yourself, your ghali buddy has already been caught red handed in the past by zaveri for posting weak narrations.

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Don't flatter yourself, your ghali buddy has already been caught red handed in the past by zaveri for posting weak narrations.

we don;t need zaveri to catch anyone if any of our reliable Mujtahid will correct him then we can think.If we are Ghaali whole Shia world is ghaali then,and we are proud on these silly labels in the love of Ahlebait(as),they know what we are your certification is not required.

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we don;t need zaveri to catch anyone if any of our reliable Mujtahid will correct him then we can think.If we are Ghaali whole Shia world is ghaali then,and we are proud on these silly labels in the love of Ahlebait(as),they know what we are your certification is not required.

Proud of these labels? Your Imams themselves disassociated from anyone who exagerrated their status. Islam is about worshipping God, not endlessly singing the praises of His agents.

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