Muawiya Bin Abi Sufyan

[UIE]

This a question to My Brothers and Sisters is Sunni Schools of thought.

First of All Praise is due to Allah the Lord of all worlds. Peace and Blessings be unto The Holy Prophet Abul Qasim Muhammad ibn Abdullah (SAW) and his Pure and Noble Descents (as).

Asalamualakum dear Brothers And Sisters,

May the Most Merciful bless you all in this Holy Month in Which the Holy Book of Wisdom is reviled.

My Question is this, Can you please explain to me why is it that Muawiya Bin Abi Sufyan is held in high regards when:

A) The 2nd Caliph is reputed to have said upon his visit to Damascus that appointing him (Muawiya) as governor was a grave mistake and that the only reason he (the Caliph) could not dismiss Muawiya from the post was out of fear that the son of Abu Sufyan would revolt.

B.) Muawiya did not join Islam out of his love for the Holy Prophet (SAW). Going as Far as to Cursing his own father for embracing Islam and left for Syria.

C) Revolted against the Caliphs of his time (i.e. Amirul Momineen (as) and Imam Hasan (as)) and caused fitna within the Muslims and murdered those who questioned him.

D) Murder the Mother of the Believers Ayesha.

E) Broke the traditions of the first 5 Caliphs and appoint his son, who was not a legitimate candidate, and made by force senior companions of the Holy Prophet (SAW) to give allegiance to his son, Yazid.

F) Had the grandson of the Holy Prophet (SAW), Imam Hasan (as), poisoned via his wife.

G) Did not honor the treaty between himself and Imam Hasan (as).

H) Started a tradition of cursing Amirul Momineen (as) after Salat al Juma which lasted for 70 years.

I) His mother chewed the liver of Hazrat Humza (ra)

Please answer while keeping all this in mind and please be logical I do not want a emotion based answer I need a Coherent Analytical and Intellectual response. In Advance I apologies if anyone is offended; my objective is to understand from the perspective of my Sunni brothers and sisters.

I welcome Both Shias and Sunnis to engage in this discussion not to prove each other wrong nor to be disrespectful to each others' beliefs but rather to get a higher understanding so that we can appreciate each other more and have greater understanding.

Thank You,

-Ibn Ammar

Edited July 28, 2012 by UIE

[Me sunni]

Wa alaikum salaam.

This is a topic of great interest for me & as a Sunni it just seems to me that no-one wants to talk about it, no one wants to talk about what he did that was good/bad.

If anyone has time please elaborate on the hatred & love for this Muawiya and why they feel either emotion?

[titumir]

Wa alaikum salaam.

This is a topic of great interest for me & as a Sunni it just seems to me that no-one wants to talk about it, no one wants to talk about what he did that was good/bad.

If anyone has time please elaborate on the hatred & love for this Muawiya and why they feel either emotion?

The very fact that people don't want to talk about him means that his character is extremely dubious. Because, if he was as great as his supporters claim, nobody would be ashamed to discuss his great achievements for Islam.

[UIE]

Wa alaikum salaam.

This is a topic of great interest for me & as a Sunni it just seems to me that no-one wants to talk about it, no one wants to talk about what he did that was good/bad.

If anyone has time please elaborate on the hatred & love for this Muawiya and why they feel either emotion?

Well I am trying to Talk about it now and I have made a list of his actions (carefully omitting any that are disputed or are too controversial).

So please can anyone justify praising him and and if not why my dear brothers and sisters do you hold such a man in such high esteem?

[Righteous]

i think you can add killing of hujr bin adi and his companions for refusing to curse Ali (as) to your list

Edited July 28, 2012 by Righteous

[UIE]

i chose to omit the names of his victims but i have made it a point refer to C)

[Haydar Husayn]

Well, in most of those cases, the answer is probably that they don't consider that those allegations are proven.

A) The 2nd Caliph is reputed to have said upon his visit to Damascus that appointing him (Muawiya) as governor was a grave mistake and that the only reason he (the Caliph) could not dismiss Muawiya from the post was out of fear that the son of Abu Sufyan would revolt.

I doubt Sunnis accept this report as authentic. What is the reference by the way?

B.) Muawiya did not join Islam out of his love for the Holy Prophet (SAW). Going as Far as to Cursing his own father for embracing Islam and left for Syria.

I think it would be difficult to conclusively prove what Mu`awiya's motivations for becoming a Muslim were.

C) Revolted against the Caliphs of his time (i.e. Amirul Momineen (as) and Imam Hasan (as)) and caused fitna within the Muslims and murdered those who questioned him.

This is the strongest claim against him, and I don't think there is a satisfactory answer. I have never seen a Sunni explain this in a way that was even semi-plausible.

D) Murder the Mother of the Believers Ayesha.

They obviously do not accept that this is true.

E) Broke the traditions of the first 5 Caliphs and appoint his son, who was not a legitimate candidate, and made by force senior companions of the Holy Prophet (SAW) to give allegiance to his son, Yazid.

This is another pretty strong argument against Mu`awiya. No doubt Sunnis would just say this was a 'mistake', and that Mu`awiya was just a fallible human being, etc. They have very low standards for the behaviour of their heros when it suits them.

F) Had the grandson of the Holy Prophet (SAW), Imam Hasan (as), poisoned via his wife.

Obviously they don't believe this either.

G) Did not honor the treaty between himself and Imam Hasan (as).

I'm not sure if it can be proven via their authentic ahadith that this treaty was broken.

H) Started a tradition of cursing Amirul Momineen (as) after Salat al Juma which lasted for 70 years.

Again, they would dispute this.

I) His mother chewed the liver of Hazrat Humza (ra)

Aside from the fact that his mother's actions are irrelevant, they would also claim that her sins before joining Islam were forgiven.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Haydar Husayn

[Murtada]

Wa alaikum salaam.

This is a topic of great interest for me & as a Sunni it just seems to me that no-one wants to talk about it, no one wants to talk about what he did that was good/bad.

If anyone has time please elaborate on the hatred & love for this Muawiya and why they feel either emotion?

Hate, because he was an enemy of Allaah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh). He waged a war against the rightful khalifa of his time, disregarding the Quraan and ahaadeeth of RasulAllaah (pbuh), and because of this murdered thousands of Muslims. What good deed could recompense this?

[Me sunni]

Please elaborate in the killing of Aisha by Muawiya?

[Kismet110]

Just to support some of the OP's points regarding Muawiyah from sunni sources.

Regarding the cursing of Maula Ali (as):

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Hazim that the Governor of Medina, who was one of the members of the house of Marwan, called Sahl Ibn Sa'd and ordered him to curse Ali. But Sahl refused to do so. The governor said: "If you don't want to curse Ali, just say God curse Abu Turab (the nickname of Ali)." Sahl said: "Ali did not like any name for himself better than Abu Turab, and Ali used to become very happy when somebody would call him Abu Turab."

-- Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of Ali, Arabic version, v4, p1874, Tradition #38.

Why would a governor issue an order unless it was a govt policy?

"That it was in the days of Bani Umayyah, more than seventy thousand minbar (in mosques) upon which they cursed Ali Ibn Abi-Talib in some of what Muawiyah made a Sunnah for them."

-- Rabeea' al-Abrar, al-Zamakhshari

-- al-Hafidh Jalaluddin al-Suyuti

In her letter, Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet (saw) wrote to Muawiyah: "...You are cursing Allah and His Messenger on your minbar and that is because you are cursing Ali Ibn Abi Talib and whomever loves him, and I am a witness that Allah and His Messenger loved him."

-- al-Aqd al-Fareed volume 2 page 300

When Muawiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan put al-Mughairah Ibn Shubah in charge of Kufah in Jumada 41 he summoned him. After praising and glorifying God, he said: "Now then, indeed a forbearing person has been admonished in the past. The wise might do what you want without instruction. Although I have wanted to advise you about many things, I left them alone, trusting in your discernment of what pleases me, what helps my regime and what sets my subjects [raiyyah] on the right path. I would continue to advise you about a quality of yours - do not refrain from abusing Ali and criticizing him, not from asking God's mercy upon Uthman and His forgiveness for him. Continue to shame the companions of Ali keep at a distance, and don't listen to them. Praise the faction of Uthman, bring them near, and listen to them."

-- History of Tabari, English version, events of year 51 AH volume 18 pp 122-123

Regards reneging on the agreement with Maula Hassan (as):

"Hasan placed a condition that Mu'awiya stop the practice of cursing 'Ali, a condition that he rejected. Hasan then asked that he refrain from cursing 'Ali in his presence. Mu'awiya agreed but did not fulfil this condition either".

-- Tarikh Kamil Volume 1 Page 203 Chapter "Dhikr Sulh Hasan"

"When Mu'awiya made peace with Hasan, he made a promise that leadership would go to Hasan after him"

-- al Bidayah wa al Nihaya, Volume 8 page 80 Dhikr 57 Hijri

Hasan said: 'I placed a condition on Mu'awiya that I will become leader after Mu'awiya.'

-- Fath ul Bari Sharh Bukhari Volume 13 Page 65 Kitab al Fitan

The poisoning of Maula Hassan (as) under instruction of Muawiyah is supposedly mentioned in the following sunni books (amongst others) but I can't verify so if anyone can then please do so:

Iqdul Fareed by Ibn Abd Rabbāh Volume 2 Page 11

Tāreekh by Abul Fidā Volume 1 Page 182

Tāreekhul Khamees by Husayn Dayarbakri Volume 2 Page 238

Akbarut Tiwal by Dinawari Page 400

Rawzatul Manazir by Ibne Shahnah Volume 2 Page 133

ALI

Edited July 30, 2012 by Kismet110

[Ali_Hussain]

[UIE]

Thank you brothers now I really want some brothers from the Ahl al Sunnah to prove to me that after all this why is he called (ra)?

[adil452]

This a question to My Brothers and Sisters is Sunni Schools of thought.

First of All Praise is due to Allah the Lord of all worlds. Peace and Blessings be unto The Holy Prophet Abul Qasim Muhammad ibn Abdullah (SAW) and his Pure and Noble Descents (as).

Asalamualakum dear Brothers And Sisters,

May the Most Merciful bless you all in this Holy Month in Which the Holy Book of Wisdom is reviled.

My Question is this, Can you please explain to me why is it that Muawiya Bin Abi Sufyan is held in high regards when:

A) The 2nd Caliph is reputed to have said upon his visit to Damascus that appointing him (Muawiya) as governor was a grave mistake and that the only reason he (the Caliph) could not dismiss Muawiya from the post was out of fear that the son of Abu Sufyan would revolt.

B.) Muawiya did not join Islam out of his love for the Holy Prophet (SAW). Going as Far as to Cursing his own father for embracing Islam and left for Syria.

C) Revolted against the Caliphs of his time (i.e. Amirul Momineen (as) and Imam Hasan (as)) and caused fitna within the Muslims and murdered those who questioned him.

D) Murder the Mother of the Believers Ayesha.

E) Broke the traditions of the first 5 Caliphs and appoint his son, who was not a legitimate candidate, and made by force senior companions of the Holy Prophet (SAW) to give allegiance to his son, Yazid.

F) Had the grandson of the Holy Prophet (SAW), Imam Hasan (as), poisoned via his wife.

G) Did not honor the treaty between himself and Imam Hasan (as).

H) Started a tradition of cursing Amirul Momineen (as) after Salat al Juma which lasted for 70 years.

I) His mother chewed the liver of Hazrat Humza (ra)

Please answer while keeping all this in mind and please be logical I do not want a emotion based answer I need a Coherent Analytical and Intellectual response. In Advance I apologies if anyone is offended; my objective is to understand from the perspective of my Sunni brothers and sisters.

I welcome Both Shias and Sunnis to engage in this discussion not to prove each other wrong nor to be disrespectful to each others' beliefs but rather to get a higher understanding so that we can appreciate each other more and have greater understanding.

Thank You,

-Ibn Ammar

I've been interested in this myself. I think there are a few Sunni points of view regarding Muawiya:

1. The universal Sunni view (i.e. nearly all Sunnis believe this part): he was a sahabi who was an employee to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and wrote letters for him. Therefore it is safer NOT to curse him. However, he made two huge mistakes, firstly, revolting against Imam Ali (as) and secondly, appointing yazid as the caliph after his death.

2. The Pro-Muawiya Sunni view: The above DID NOT happen - i.e. he did NOT commit the crimes that you have pointed out above (no evidence). The only 2 things he was guilty of were the above (revolting against Ali (as) and appointing yazid). He was a great leader/politician/sahabi. If anyone curses him then he is approaching kufr. This view is generally held by salafis (as far as i've noticed).

3. The neutral Sunni view: He was a sahabi so it's better NOT to curse him, but he was NOT a hero due to above crimes and therefore he was not a Rashid Caliph. Let the scholars decide..i.e. stay out of it.

4. The anti-Muawiya Sunni view (a minority of Sunnis believe this): he was unjust and a tyrant who commited a grevious crime by rebelling against Ali (as) and various other crimes as above. Still, it's better to refrain from cursing, but it is not wrong to strongly criticise him. All in all, an unjust leader in Islamic History.

As you can see, not all Sunnis have the same beliefs regarding this matter. The majority seem to lie in categories 1 and 2. A large number hold view number 3 and a very small minority hold view 4.

It's very interesting how some groups think so highly of him, whilst others don't - highly contrasting views. Interstingly, people who have view number 2 accuse the Shia and others as ignorant, i.e. their information on Muawiya's history is not credible/ accurate, which is why they have formed their negative views.

Allah (swt) knows best.

[UIE]

I love how Dagga has avoided my topic? whats the matter Syeddna Umar is locked up?

[Ibrahim786]

This a question to My Brothers and Sisters is Sunni Schools of thought.

First of All Praise is due to Allah the Lord of all worlds. Peace and Blessings be unto The Holy Prophet Abul Qasim Muhammad ibn Abdullah (SAW) and his Pure and Noble Descents (as).

Asalamualakum dear Brothers And Sisters,

May the Most Merciful bless you all in this Holy Month in Which the Holy Book of Wisdom is reviled.

wa' alaikumusalam. you may have not had much replies by sunnis due the ramadhan and I personally try to spend my time on ibaadah and aamal. Its my first time here since ramadhan so I will be concise to answer your points.

My Question is this, Can you please explain to me why is it that Muawiya Bin Abi Sufyan is held in high regards when:

because he was a companion of the prophet pbuh, who was a writer of the revelation and served almost like a secretrat to the prophet pbuh. We believe the companions to best muslims as they saw, ate with, accomponied the prophet pbuh through the tough times. Yes its true that although we avoid comparing the sahaabah there are ranks among them and muawiyah ra is maybe is not at the same level the ashra mubashara sahabah. We love, respect and honour all the sahabah as this is our aqeedah (If I am correct in thinking). They understood Islam better than we do, they sacrificed more than we do and they strived more than we do.

A) The 2nd Caliph is reputed to have said upon his visit to Damascus that appointing him (Muawiya) as governor was a grave mistake and that the only reason he (the Caliph) could not dismiss Muawiya from the post was out of fear that the son of Abu Sufyan would revolt.

simply not true. you are talking about umar ra here. I think the history of his khilafah proved he would take the right decisions even if it was against himself or his son. Also Muawiyah was a relatively new governer and the armies were infact under control of Saad bin abi waqqas ra,abu ubaidah ra, khalid bin walid ra, amr bin aas ra - so muawiyah was not in charge any expeditions like the sahabahs I mentioned were. Also umar ra denied muawiyah's request to invade Cyprus.

B.) Muawiya did not join Islam out of his love for the Holy Prophet (SAW). Going as Far as to Cursing his own father for embracing Islam and left for Syria.

simply not true. Infact most sunni ulama agree that muawiyah embraced Islam before his father at Hudaibiyah and kept his islam secret as many muslims stuck in Makkah did. they both openly declared their islam after the conquest of Makkah.

C) Revolted against the Caliphs of his time (i.e. Amirul Momineen (as) and Imam Hasan (as)) and caused fitna within the Muslims and murdered those who questioned him.

sunnis say that he had an ijtehaadi difference with ali ra and certainly ali ra was more on the haqq. You cannot ignore the context of the situation i.e. uthman ra being murdered. muawiyah was certainly not alone in his view and interestingly enough no scholar that I can think of since the event refuted muawiyah's actual reasonings for his ijtihaad. The fitnah was not caused by muawiyah - it was caused by those who killed uthman ra. why do you refuse to acknowledge this? if uthman ra died naturally then there would have been no doubt is sunni minds that the events of jamal and siffeen would never had happened.

muawiyah did not "murder those who questioned him" - infact many people questioned him, even abused him to his face but he was a man blessed with alot of patience. also remember that ali ra declared war on muawiyah and marched to siffeen (although I certainly do not question why he did this).

D) Murder the Mother of the Believers Ayesha.

simply not true. please check the authenticity of such narrations.

E) Broke the traditions of the first 5 Caliphs and appoint his son, who was not a legitimate candidate, and made by force senior companions of the Holy Prophet (SAW) to give allegiance to his son, Yazid.

not true, ibne zubair ra and hussain ra did not give the bayah so they were not forced. the majority of the ummah had accepted yazid and the reasoning was to continue the stability. most sunnis view yazid differently to how shias view him so you need to be aware of what the sunni scholars say about yazid.

F) Had the grandson of the Holy Prophet (SAW), Imam Hasan (as), poisoned via his wife.

simply not true. please check the authenticity of such narrations.

G) Did not honor the treaty between himself and Imam Hasan (as).

simply not true. please check the authenticity of such narrations.

H) Started a tradition of cursing Amirul Momineen (as) after Salat al Juma which lasted for 70 years.

simply not true. infact the khawarij were the ones started to curse ali ra and do takfir on him.Isn't it evident that hadiths of muawiyah allegedly ordering the cursing of ali ra - involved sahabahs like saad bin abi waqas ra and mughaira bin shuba ra who were governers of Kufa and surrounding areas NOT Damascus !!!

I) His mother chewed the liver of Hazrat Humza (ra)

before Islam. A convert to Islam has their sins wiped away. so this has no relevance.

Please answer while keeping all this in mind and please be logical I do not want a emotion based answer I need a Coherent Analytical and Intellectual response. In Advance I apologies if anyone is offended; my objective is to understand from the perspective of my Sunni brothers and sisters.

I welcome Both Shias and Sunnis to engage in this discussion not to prove each other wrong nor to be disrespectful to each others' beliefs but rather to get a higher understanding so that we can appreciate each other more and have greater understanding.

Thank You,

-Ibn Ammar

No problem in asking brother. I think it just boils down to shias and sunnis having their own hadiths and stories and the need to differentiate between authentic and fabricated events. Shias have been brought up to hate the sahabah (with some exceptions) and sunnis have been brought up to love the sahabah. The questions which one is authentic and which one isnt.

[UIE]

can you provide some sources?

[Azaan shah]

What has hinda r.a got to do with amer muavia r.a ? He is n0t acc0untable for her deeds. She later accepted islam so we menti0n her in sahabas. If sydna amer muavia r.a is kn0wn bad becuz his m0ther ate hamza's liver than y d0nt u talk about his sister' who was the m0ther of the believers . ..

[Ethics]

is this dude serious? ^^ o_O

[Advocate123]

is this dude serious? ^^ o_O

Lol..... Too right

Lets be very straight

Ahal sunnah view

Ameer muawiya was wrong and MOLA E KAINAT ALI IBN E ABI TALIB was right and on HAQ ..... but they don't curse ameer muawviya .....

Another important fact

The Sunni books written on Sunni aqedah ..... I repeat again the Sunni top notch books written on Sunni aqedah no scholar has mentioned the merits of ameer muawiya ....

Another important fact

The Sunni ahadith books .... Top notch ones no Sunni muhadith has ever made a chapter in his book on merits of ameer muawiya.... Like for other companions and ahal e bayt..... I repeat again u will find one Hadith here and one Hadith there in the merit of ameer muawiya .... But no Sunni scholar of top notch books has made a chapter in his book on merits of ameer muawiya....

Clearly tells

Edited February 11, 2014 by Advocate123

[gajarkahalva]

.

Edited February 12, 2014 by gajarkahalva

[Sumerian]

Muawiya revolted against a "Rightly Guided Caliph" which caused the death of so many believers. Like the Prophet said "Whoever is at war with them (His family) is at war with me". Didn't the Quran say that the household of Muhammad (SAWW) is pure? Now if someone is at war with The Prophet, does that not mean he is at war with The Almighty? Not only that,Muawiya revolted against Al Hasan (AS).

If Muawiya revolted for the killing of Uthman, than he put his personal situatiom, over the lives of many Muslims.

Am I wrong?

[Ethics]

More On Muawiya

Muawiya and Abusing Ali

[Goswami]

Just to support some of the OP's points regarding Muawiyah from sunni sources.

Regarding the cursing of Maula Ali (as):

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Hazim that the Governor of Medina, who was one of the members of the house of Marwan, called Sahl Ibn Sa'd and ordered him to curse Ali. But Sahl refused to do so. The governor said: "If you don't want to curse Ali, just say God curse Abu Turab (the nickname of Ali)." Sahl said: "Ali did not like any name for himself better than Abu Turab, and Ali used to become very happy when somebody would call him Abu Turab."

-- Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of Ali, Arabic version, v4, p1874, Tradition #38.

Why would a governor issue an order unless it was a govt policy?

 

This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Shu’ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa’d b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa’d as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat ‘Ali), whereupon be said : It is because of three things which I remember Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camelg. I heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about ‘Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). ‘All said to him: Allah’s Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren’t you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call ‘Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed: “Let us summon our children and your children.” Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) called ‘Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

 the hadith says as clear from the matan 

muawiya(ra) asked what prevents you from cursing ali(ra)???? means he is asking that what prevents you from cursing ali (ra)? right

after that in the hadith sa'd told about the merits of ali ibn abi talib(ra). 

my question is that 

after listening these merits of ali ibn abi talib (ra) from sa'd where in the hadith muawiya(ra) cursed  ali(ra)?????

[Advocate123]

This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Shu’ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa’d b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa’d as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat ‘Ali), whereupon be said : It is because of three things which I remember Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camelg. I heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about ‘Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). ‘All said to him: Allah’s Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren’t you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call ‘Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed: “Let us summon our children and your children.” Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) called ‘Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

the hadith says as clear from the matan

muawiya(ra) asked what prevents you from cursing ali(ra)???? means he is asking that what prevents you from cursing ali (ra)? right

after that in the hadith sa'd told about the merits of ali ibn abi talib(ra).

my question is that

after listening these merits of ali ibn abi talib (ra) from sa'd where in the hadith muawiya(ra) cursed ali(ra)?????

He said what prevents u from cursing ...... This also tells that other people were cursing ALI AS while saad bin abi waqas ra was not cursing and he gave his reasons for not cursing ..... Also while other people were cursing and saad bin abi waqas was not cursing ........ Who was in charge ???? Obviously muawiya was in power and he was aware of the fact that people were cursing ALI AS that's why he asked saad bin abi waqas ra what prevents u from cursing ....... Not only that cursing which was started by muawiya lasted for 80 years ...... And if u have sympathy for muawiya for ur personal reasons than look at the Hadith again ..... It says "what prevents u from cursing" which means muawiya at least knew that there were people out there who were cursing ALI AS ..... Since he was in power , what action he took to punish such people ..... Who were cursing MOLA E KAINAT ALI IBN ABI TALIB SHER E KHUDA KARAM ULLAH WAJAHUL KAREEM AS

Read the above article posted by pure ethics ..... Mentioned as muawiya and abusing imam ALI

[Goswami]

He said what prevents u from cursing ...... This also tells that other people were cursing ALI AS while saad bin abi waqas ra was not cursing and he gave his reasons for not cursing ..... Also while other people were cursing and saad bin abi waqas was not cursing ........ Who was in charge ???? Obviously muawiya was in power and he was aware of the fact that people were cursing ALI AS that's why he asked saad bin abi waqas ra what prevents u from cursing ....... Not only that cursing which was started by muawiya lasted for 80 years ...... And if u have sympathy for muawiya for ur personal reasons than look at the Hadith again ..... It says "what prevents u from cursing" which means muawiya at least knew that there were people out there who were cursing ALI AS ..... Since he was in power , what action he took to punish such people ..... Who were cursing MOLA E KAINAT ALI IBN ABI TALIB SHER E KHUDA KARAM ULLAH WAJAHUL KAREEM AS

Read the above article posted by pure ethics ..... Mentioned as muawiya and abusing imam ALI

• brother you are not grasping the matan this is the most authentic hadith which shia  bring forth to divulge that muawiya(ra) ordered sa'd to curse  ali (ra) which in fact is not like this.For your ease let me quote imam al qurtubi and Nawawi

  Imam Al-Qurtubi said: “The most authentic narration used is his (i.e. Mu’awiyah) saying to Sa’d b. Abi Waqas: What prevented you from insulting Abu Turab? And this is not [in any way] a declaration that he asked him to insult [him], rather it just was an inquiry about why he didn’t”.

  Imam Al-Nawawi mentions something similar in his commentation on the tradition. He says: “It might have been that Sa’d was among a group who used to insult Ali [ra], and So the inquiry of Mu’awiya , according to this understanding would be: What prevented you, O Sa’d, from insulting Ali, when everyone around you was doing it.”

   

  • what would have stopped muawiya(ra) from putting a punishment on Sa'd if he had ordered for hazrat Ali(ra) to be insulted and Sa'd refused? hadhrat muawaiya was Caliph at that time so what would stop him? and with this no punishment or penalty was placed on Sa'd.

    rather you can also see that muawiya(ra) refered to  Ali [ra] as Abu Turab, the most beloved Kunya to Ali [ra], since it was given to him by the Prophet of Allah.

    أمر معاوية بن أبي سفيان سعدا فقال ما منعك أن تسب أبا التراب

    muawiya bin abi Sufyan commanded Saad, asking him: what prevented you from insulting Abu Turab?

    now a typical anti-muawiya would translate this as muawiya ordered Sa'd to insult Abu Turab but one can see that is not what is written even though it could have very easily been written differently if muawiya was truly commanding someone to insult someone.

    And of course, Sa'd responds by saying all the great things about hazrat Ali (ra) and hadhrat muawiya doesn't object at all.

[Advocate123]

<p>

• brother you are not grasping the matan this is the most authentic hadith which shia bring forth to divulge that muawiya(ra) ordered sa'd to curse ali (ra) which in fact is not like this.For your ease let me quote imam al qurtubi and Nawawi

  Imam Al-Qurtubi said: “The most authentic narration used is his (i.e. Mu’awiyah) saying to Sa’d b. Abi Waqas: What prevented you from insulting Abu Turab? And this is not [in any way] a declaration that he asked him to insult [him], rather it just was an inquiry about why he didn’t”.

  Imam Al-Nawawi mentions something similar in his commentation on the tradition. He says: “It might have been that Sa’d was among a group who used to insult Ali [ra], and So the inquiry of Mu’awiya , according to this understanding would be: What prevented you, O Sa’d, from insulting Ali, when everyone around you was doing it.”

• what would have stopped muawiya(ra) from putting a punishment on Sa'd if he had ordered for hazrat Ali(ra) to be insulted and Sa'd refused? hadhrat muawaiya was Caliph at that time so what would stop him? and with this no punishment or penalty was placed on Sa'd.

  rather you can also see that muawiya(ra) refered to Ali [ra] as Abu Turab, the most beloved Kunya to Ali [ra], since it was given to him by the Prophet of Allah.

  أمر معاوية بن أبي سفيان سعدا فقال ما منعك أن تسب أبا التراب

  muawiya bin abi Sufyan commanded Saad, asking him: what prevented you from insulting Abu Turab?

  now a typical anti-muawiya would translate this as muawiya ordered Sa'd to insult Abu Turab but one can see that is not what is written even though it could have very easily been written differently if muawiya was truly commanding someone to insult someone.

  And of course, Sa'd responds by saying all the great things about hazrat Ali (ra) and hadhrat muawiya doesn't object at all.

Bruv..... If it comes to argument ..... It can go on and on and on ..... But leaving everything aside ..... Even if I agree with ur statement

The Hadith also tells that muawiya knew that there were public around who were cursing ALI AS ..... What steps did muawiya took to stop such cursing or punish such people or reprimand such people ..... Since cursing went on for 80 years and on every Friday sermon IMAM ALI IBN E ABI TALIB AS was cursed all over Arab in 70 thousand minibars ..... It was HAZRAT UMAR BIN ABDUL AZIZ who stopped the cursing on IMAM ALI AS ..... It is obvious that cursing ALI was not there at the time of third caliph not it was there at the time of fourth caliph ..... It started afterwards .... What measures were taken by muawiya to stop it .....

[Goswami]

Bruv..... If it comes to argument ..... It can go on and on and on ..... But leaving everything aside ..... Even if I agree with ur statement

The Hadith also tells that muawiya knew that there were public around who were cursing ALI AS ..... What steps did muawiya took to stop such cursing or punish such people or reprimand such people ..... Since cursing went on for 80 years and on every Friday sermon IMAM ALI IBN E ABI TALIB AS was cursed all over Arab in 70 thousand minibars ..... It was HAZRAT UMAR BIN ABDUL AZIZ who stopped the cursing on IMAM ALI AS ..... It is obvious that cursing ALI was not there at the time of third caliph not it was there at the time of fourth caliph ..... It started afterwards .... What measures were taken by muawiya to stop it .....

let us dissect this matter brother. first of all i would like to say that shias like to portray things uni-directional they never highlight other side of the image because it does not suite their desires. well hadhrat mauwiya and hadhrat ali were at war that is why they used to make dua against each other besides this on plethora of occasions muawiya (ra) has praised hadhrat ali (ra) and accept that ali (ra) is superior to him. also ali (ra) did not accuse him of any kufr shirk etc like shias do . so hazrat ali was free of your takfeeri cult. you will have to accept this. 

[Advocate123]

let us dissect this matter brother. first of all i would like to say that shias like to portray things uni-directional they never highlight other side of the image because it does not suite their desires. well hadhrat mauwiya and hadhrat ali were at war that is why they used to make dua against each other besides this on plethora of occasions muawiya (ra) has praised hadhrat ali (ra) and accept that ali (ra) is superior to him. also ali (ra) did not accuse him of any kufr shirk etc like shias do . so hazrat ali was free of your takfeeri cult. you will have to accept this.

Bro ,

You r going off topic .....

Please answer what is being discussed...

What measures were taken by muawiya

Also any Muslim today does not require muawiyas word that IMAM ALI AS was superior to him ..... All the Muslims know irrespective that IMAM ALI AS was superior to him .... But coming back to the topic , what measures were taken by muawiya ?????

Edited February 15, 2014 by Advocate123

[Goswami]

first you will have to prove that muawiya(Ra) cursed or encouraged cursing ali(ra) then we will proceed

[Advocate123]

Bruv in the same thread pure ethics has posted a link ..... Read it please ..... And u will come to know ......

[Goswami]

i have seen that. it has been rebutted many times

[Advocate123]

Lol.... Keep on praising muawiya and enjoy your self brother ....

[Goswami]

this is not an academic response brother. well pick any tradition and discuss with me. i will accept your argument if it will carry some weight. please go ahead 

[Advocate123]

Bruv.... The matter of fact is just take Hadith in question ..... Muawiya asked what prevents u from cursing ALI.... It clearly tells that muawiya knew ALI was being cursed without a doubt .... What steps he took to stop such cursing or punishing such people or reprimanding such people ..... He was in power .... What were his efforts

1) also did he punished the culprits who killed the first caliphs son muhammad bin abi bakr ra and wrapped him in donkeys skin and burnt him alive ....

2) also did he punished the people who threw arrows over imam hassan janaza

But first u can answer the first point .... What measures were taken by muawiya ???

Edited February 15, 2014 by Advocate123

[Wisdom007]

this is not an academic response brother. well pick any tradition and discuss with me. i will accept your argument if it will carry some weight. please go ahead

Asslamalikum

Brother I agree with you 100%

(3) Abdullah reported: It was asked from Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) who amongst the people were the best. He said: (People) of my generation, then those next to them, then those next to them, then there would come a people whose evidence would precede their oath and their oath would precede their evidence. Ibrahim said: They forbade us to make vows and bear witness when we were too young. (Book #031, Hadith #6151)