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Haydar Husayn

Height Of Abbas Ibn Ali

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(bismillah)

(salam)

A common story told about Abbas in Ali is that he was so tall that his feet touched the ground when he sat on a horse. You would hope that people would realise how clearly absurd this is, and reject it without much thought, yet that is obviously not the case, so I'll post a few facts here to help people along.

The Arabian or Arab horse (Arabic: ÇáÍÕÇä ÇáÚÑÈí ý [ ħisˤaːn ʕarabiː], DMG ḥiṣān ʿarabī) is a breed of horse that originated on the Arabian Peninsula. With a distinctive head shape and high tail carriage, the Arabian is one of the most easily recognizable horse breeds in the world. It is also one of the oldest breeds, with archaeological evidence of horses that resemble modern Arabians dating back 4,500 years. Throughout history, Arabian horses spread around the world by both war and trade, used to improve other breeds by adding speed, refinement, endurance, and strong bone. Today, Arabian bloodlines are found in almost every modern breed of riding horse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_horse

The height of horses is measured at the highest point of the withers, where the neck meets the back.[22] This point is used because it is a stable point of the anatomy, unlike the head or neck, which move up and down in relation to the body of the horse.

The English-speaking world measures the height of horses in hands and inches: one hand is equal to 4 inches (101.6 mm). The height is expressed as the number of full hands, followed by a point, then the number of additional inches, and ending with the abbreviation "h" or "hh" (for "hands high"). Thus, a horse described as "15.2 h" is 15 hands plus 2 inches, for a total of 62 inches (157.5 cm) in height.[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse#Size_and_measurement

The breed standard stated by the United States Equestrian Federation, describes Arabians as standing between 14.1 to 15.1 hands (57 to 61 inches, 145 to 155 cm) tall, "with the occasional individual over or under."[3] Thus, all Arabians, regardless of height, are classified as "horses", even though 14.2 hands (58 inches, 147 cm) is the traditional cutoff height between a horse and a pony.[14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_horse#Size

So Arabian horses were probably roughly the same height back then that they are now, which is a minimum of 57 inches (145 cm). This height is measured from the ground to the point where the neck meets the back. This point is at most a few inches heigher than where a rider would be sitting. So let's say the rider would be sitting 50 Inches off the ground, which is probably quite an underestimate.

Now, 50 inches is still over 4 feet (122 cm). So to sit on a horse with your feet touching the ground, the length of your legs up to your groin area would have to be over 4 feet (and remember that your legs aren't straight when sitting on a horse. If the distance between your feet and your groin is over 4 feet, then the height of the person would be well over 8 feet (244 cm)! And remember that I've been taking underestimates throughout here.

People need to wake up and stop believing everything they hear or read.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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So based on Wikipedia and your own guesswork we should believe you and not believe others we 'read or hear'?

Then explain these to us:

giantsleg1.jpg

giants.jpg

giant.Machnov.Hippodrome.w.jpg

Moving from height to longevity, explain this:

"And We certainly sent Noah to his people, and he remained among them a thousand years minus fifty years, and the flood seized them while they were wrongdoers."

Noble Quran 29:14

Is the longevity of our Imam (ajtf) also something we shouldn't believe based on Wikipedia and your personal viewpoints about what is reasonable or not?

ALI

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(salam)

(bismillah)

A common story told about Abbas in Ali is that he was so tall that his feet touched the ground when he sat on a horse. You would hope that people would realise how clearly absurd this is, and reject it without much thought, yet that is obviously not the case, so I'll post a few facts here to help people along.

Not only is it Da`eef (Weak), but this is illogical. There is a video of Shaq, who is 7'1", riding a normal size horse, and you will see a gap of at least 3 feet between his feet and the ground on each side. To say that `Abbas' feet was "touching" or "dragging" on the ground is impossible, unless you are willing to say he was 10 feet tall, which would be a weakness on the battlefield.

(salam)

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Whats more strange is OP believing that "..height for an Arab of that time, which probably wasn't that tall given the poorer nutrition they would have had," I hope that was your opinion, because its almost a fact that average height has been decreasing since centuries.

Please show me how this is almost a fact, because I have never seen a shred of evidence for this. The evidence rather shows a strong correlation between height and nutrition. Here is a study on the heights of Europeans throughout the past couple of millennia:

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uni/wwl/koepke_baten_twomillennia.pdf

You we will see the we have not in fact gradually been getting shorter.

I was going to reply to other thread but then after reading i realized that maybe you just like arguing and i wont play that game. Anyways, since we are throwing random analysis:

Imam Ali (as) has said: Allah has bestowed on me a modest body and height When my adversary is short, I strike on his head to cut him into two pieces and if he is tall I cut him horizontally into two.”

Assuming the story is true, and to be honest it doesn't sound very plausible, then it doesn't make much sense to describe Marhab as short does it?

Its easy to prove something using random analysis. Height of Imam Ali/Hazrat Abbas doesn't mean an ounce to anyone. But I guess it must be that important for you to make a new thread to i guess win an argument or prove something?

No, the height doesn't mean much. What is important is for people to start turning their brains on, and stop automatically believing every piece of nonsense they hear. If at the very least someone doesn't want to see some kind of proof for such an outlandish claim before accepting it to the degree that they are willing to to defend it, then there is something wrong with them. And if a random Shia website counts as proof to someone, then I feel sorry for them.

As for Kismet appealing to Christian crackpots to support his argument, the less said about that the better.

Haydar, can anyone reject anything that seems strange to him/her?

No, but if something seems strange, then you should need strong evidence before accepting it. Too many people just automatically accept whatever is said from the mimbar.

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unless you are willing to say he was 10 feet tall, which would be a weakness on the battlefield.

1. How so (how is being 10 feet tall 'a weakness on the battlefield')?

2. If it was a weakness, does that mean he wasn't 10 feet tall?

No, but if something seems strange, then you should need strong evidence before accepting it. Too many people just automatically accept whatever is said from the mimbar.

Can't say I disagree. There are also some situations though where despite your mind not being 100% at rest you still would believe things (and it's not just us, some Prophets too believed in things and wished to see things with their own eyes all the same).

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I know you don't actually believe that is Habeel's grave. I certainly don't.

1. How so (how is being 10 feet tall 'a weakness on the battlefield')?

2. If it was a weakness, does that mean he wasn't 10 feet tall?

Do you realise just how tall 10 feet is?

Can't say I disagree. There are also some situations though where despite your mind not being 100% at rest you still would believe things (and it's not just us, some Prophets too believed in things and wished to see things with their own eyes all the same).

Sure. If something could be established through authentic ahadith that sounded strange, then I could understand accepting it even though the mind is not completely satisfied. But this is a completely different scenario.

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I know you don't actually believe that is Habeel's grave. I certainly don't.

I don't, but wasn't sure if the reasoning changes between non-divine (Abbas) and divine.

I know there are Islamic legal woes, but why can't the grave be exhumed to settle these wild claims? It may not even be a real grave to begin with.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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I don't, but wasn't sure if the reasoning changes between non-divine (Abbas) and divine.

I know there are Islamic legal woes, but why can't the grave be exhumed to settle these wild claims? It may not even be a real grave to begin with.

Of course it's not a real grave. There are many of these fake graves all around the place.

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(salam)

(bismillah)

1. How so (how is being 10 feet tall 'a weakness on the battlefield')?

2. If it was a weakness, does that mean he wasn't 10 feet tall?

Being 10 feet would be a major weakness on a battlefield, the bigger the body the bigger the target to hit with a sword.

What do you think of this height claim?

There are many narrations of the height of Adam, but it is believed that the height normalized way before the time of the Prophet (pbuh). Some claim those hadeeth of the height of Adam are Isra'iiyyah hadeeth.

(salam)

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Al-Abbas is a full-dimensional history of powerful ancestry and noble lineage, maternal and paternal, a fact ubiquitous in the biographies. But it is rather unreal to believe he was a tall as an Avatar. But he was tall to a certain extent, inductive reasoning proves this undeniable fact. The way he could tear the door down in the palace with brute force, charge and throw fear into the hearts of the enemies is a telling point.

Edited by zeinab18

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Do you realise just how tall 10 feet is?

I think I do... extremely tall by today's standards. Why do you ask?

Being 10 feet would be a major weakness on a battlefield, the bigger the body the bigger the target to hit with a sword.

It would have some critical advantages too, don't you think? And perhaps at the time the body being a target was known and people wore good protection against it?

And you didn't address the second question, which was: are you saying that the disadvantages of being extremely tall mean that he was not that tall?

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(salam)

(bismillah)

There are many narrations of the height of Adam, but it is believed that the height normalized way before the time of the Prophet (pbuh). Some claim those hadeeth of the height of Adam are Isra'iiyyah hadeeth.

(salam)

Right it would be disadvantage if the opponents were puny. But if the norm back in the days is tall heights, how is that a disadvantage? I am positive the average back in days was 7-8 feet, considering the average in Denmark/Netherlands right NOW is 6'3" for males.

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Right it would be disadvantage if the opponents were puny. But if the norm back in the days is tall heights, how is that a disadvantage? I am positive the average back in days was 7-8 feet, considering the average in Denmark/Netherlands right NOW is 6'3" for males.

And according to wikipedia, the tallest man in the modern age was one inch less than 9 feet, so 10 feet doesn't seem impossible.

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"As for Kismet appealing to Christian crackpots to support his argument, the less said about that the better."

Huh? I just added some pictures of what looks like very tall people, how is that Christian or otherwise? That's more 'evidence' then you have (ZERO) to prove the contrary about Hazrat Abbas's (as) height.

You always go out of your way to ridicule, mock certain things to appease your Nasibi supporters. Maybe he wasn't that tall, maybe he was but you using Wikipedia and your personal viewpoint without any source to prove it then make it sound like you're the voice of reason amongst superstitious simpletons? I don't think so.

I wrote ages ago that I'm watching you and it still stands. I don't know who you are in real life but I strongly doubt you are a Shi'ah based on on the tone of most of your posts. Sure, you have a Shi'ah sounding forum name and you're well versed in Shi'ah aquaid and behaviour but no more than many intelligent, well-read Wahabbis are.

Edited by Kismet110

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It's all possible, although people who doubt and people who believe have to take it with a grain of salt since no living human can surely know how Abbas Ibn Ali, Abo Fazel, looked like exactly.

However, what we do know is that he was almost, if not as good of a fighter as his father Imam Ali (as) and that he was and still is an icon of martyrdom and loyalty.

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"As for Kismet appealing to Christian crackpots to support his argument, the less said about that the better."

Huh? I just added some pictures of what looks like very tall people, how is that Christian or otherwise? That's more 'evidence' then you have (ZERO) to prove the contrary about Hazrat Abbas's (as) height.

You always go out of your way to ridicule, mock certain things to appease your Nasibi supporters. Maybe he wasn't that tall, maybe he was but you using Wikipedia and your personal viewpoint without any source to prove it then make it sound like you're the voice of reason amongst superstitious simpletons? I don't think so.

I wrote ages ago that I'm watching you and it still stands. I don't know who you are in real life but I strongly doubt you are a Shi'ah based on on the tone of most of your posts. Sure, you have a Shi'ah sounding forum name and you're well versed in Shi'ah aquaid and behaviour but no more than many intelligent, well-read Wahabbis are.

Photoshop. So many faked pics of giant humans surprised you fell for it. Google giant humans it tells a lot of the fake stories

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Photoshop. So many faked pics of giant humans surprised you fell for it. Google giant humans it tells a lot of the fake stories

Yes, could well be faked, I didn't post them with authority. My point was the OP states as fact that xyz isn't true using Wikipedia, his personal viewpoint and 'rationality' as the basis - even pictures off the Internet carry more weight than that.

Is it 'rational' to believe a Prophet (as) lived for nearly 1,000 years? Or that Imam Mahdi (ajtf) is alive for nearly 1200? Of course it isn't in a scientific sense but I do believe both to be true because Islam is not a science, it's a belief.

And again, if Hazrat Abbas (as) was not 8-9 feet tall then fine, doesn't effect my aquaid one iota but I don't start posts based on Wikipedia, personal viewpoint and 'rationality' and present it like some overwhelming proof whilst acting in a condescending manner to those who dispute me.

ALI

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Right it would be disadvantage if the opponents were puny. But if the norm back in the days is tall heights, how is that a disadvantage? I am positive the average back in days was 7-8 feet, considering the average in Denmark/Netherlands right NOW is 6'3" for males.

Where do you get the idea that people were so tall just 1400 years ago? There is no evidence of this whatsoever, and all the evidence we do have in the form of skeletons from the era, etc, point to people being slightly shorter than they are now. Did you even bother to look at that research paper I posted?

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(salam)

(bismillah)

I have found the saying of al-`Abbaas' feet dragging on the ground. This is not in any Shee`ah book, it is in a book by a Zaydi scholar Abu al-Faraj al-Isfahani's (d. 356) Maqaatil al-Taalibeen, pg. 56, (chapter on al-`Abbaas b. `Alee b. Abee Taalib). Abu al-Faraj uses purely Sunni chains in this book.

Well, in the section where he mentions the feet dragging, there is no chain, except that he mentions a companion of al-Baaqir (as) and al-Saadiq (as). His name is al-Kumayt b. Zayd. He has said this after narrating a poem about him.

وكان العباس رجلا وسيما جميلا يركب الفرس المطهم ورجلاه تخطان في الأرض وكان يقال له . قمر بني هاشم . وكان لواء الحسين بن علي " ع " معه يوم قتل

"And al-`Abbas was a handsome and beautiful man, he would mount the beautiful horse and his feet would exceed (dragging) on the earth. And he was called: 'Qamr Bani Haashim. And he was the flag bearer of al-Hussayn b. `Alee (as) with him on the Day of the Murder"

Source:

Abu al-Faraj al-Isfahani, Maqaatil al-Taalibeen, pg. 56

It is impossible to say that al-Kumayt b. Zayd al-Asadi knew how al-`Abbaas b. `Alee b. Abee Taalib looked like. According to Mu`jam al-Shu`araa', al-Kumayt b. Zayd was born in the year 60 and died in the year 126. So he lived from 60-126. Also, al-Dhahabi has said that he has died between the years 121-130 in hisTaareekh al-Islaam. al-Khoei says in his Mu`jam Rijaal al-Hadeeth, that he died during the life of Imaam al-Saadiq (as).

So how is al-Kumayt saying how al-`Abbaas looks, when he was only a 1 year old when Karbala' happened. Also, there is a gap between Abu al-Faraj al-Isfahani (d. 356) and al-Kumayt b. Ziyaad (b. 60 - d. 126).

(salam)

Might be Kumayt bin Zayd heard it from his father,or someone.There can be a possibility,if it was untrue,why did n't Imams(as) of the time object on his description.They must knew more about their Great Uncle's appearance.

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Might be Kumayt bin Zayd heard it from his father,or someone.There can be a possibility,if it was untrue,why did n't Imams(as) of the time object on his description.They must knew more about their Great Uncle's appearance.

I suspect that is again a problem of a translational error. It is quite likely that people used metaphors to describe a situation . 1400 years ago people understood the metaphor but now people take it in a literal sense.

might have been a general metaphor to describe tall people ie. 'that man is so tall his feet touch the ground when he rides a horse' . Everyone knows that a man isnt going to be 10' foot tall but they get the idea of a very tall person

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I'd like to point out to those making reference to the fact that I used Wikipedia that it was only in order to give an idea of how tall an Arabian horse is, and how little the breed has changed over the centuries. Unless someone actually has a reason for doubting that he information provided is accurate, then they are just making themselves look stupid by making an issue out of this.

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Where do you get the idea that people were so tall just 1400 years ago? There is no evidence of this whatsoever, and all the evidence we do have in the form of skeletons from the era, etc, point to people being slightly shorter than they are now. Did you even bother to look at that research paper I posted?

You are correct! I didn't read the paper you posted, but i read other stuff that confirms what you stated about the average height back in days.

I believed Natural Selection would have dictated tall heights but i guess not.

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Might be Kumayt bin Zayd heard it from his father,or someone.There can be a possibility,if it was untrue,why did n't Imams(as) of the time object on his description.They must knew more about their Great Uncle's appearance.

I am a little iffy on if it was al-Kumayt b. Zayd narrating this or just Abu al-Faraj al-Isfahani talking. I opted for it being former because it was right after his poem, but it could very well be the latter. Either way it comes out to being VERY weak.

There is no information how al-Kumayt got this information, when it comes to hadeeth you cannot hang your hat on "maybes". Another possibility is that someone fabricated it under al-Kumayt's name, as he is known to be one of the foremost poets of the Shee`ahs.

If it happens to be from al-Kumayt, him being a poet, would raise the likelihood of it being a metaphorical, instead of literal. I find it odd that we, Shee`ahs, always go after the Salafis/Wahhabis for being so literal.

(salam)

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I keep seeing in these threads, the term 'shia wahabbi'...I wonder why questioning something makes someone a wahabbi, given that wahabbis are the least likely to ask quesitons about what they follow (!)

Incidentally, Wahabbis are also the first to label other sunnis who question sunni beliefs and 'accepted facts' a term very close to people here; shia!

on topic, I can't believe people are discussing whether Hadhrat Abbas was 10 feet tall or not.

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^^^ its not a good thing to call names for momineen. Ghali was versus muqassir but now wahabi or nasibi is taking roots. All of this is not in order. I think people should stop arguing so much atleast this month.

Exactly, calling someone a wahabi etc because they have a different opinion is not right, and Haydar gets his fair share of that - for some odd reason (!)

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Then explain these to us:

loooool. you really made a fool of yourself.

^^^ its not a good thing to call names for momineen. Ghali was versus muqassir but now wahabi or nasibi is taking roots. All of this is not in order. I think people should stop arguing so much atleast this month.

this i agree with! we have different opinions but we are not really muqassirs and ghalis. you are not a ghali and i am not a muqassir. ali_hussein is not a muqassir and kaniz e zahra is not a ghali. we all love ahlulbayt and thats good. as long as we dont curse and lie about each toher then lets live in peace.

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