Reference To The 12 Imams In The Bible?

[Habil Ali]

Salaam alaykum.

Please keep in mind that I am merely studying Islam, so I am neither Shi'a or Sunni and I hold no biases about either.

I'm friends with a Shi'a Muslim who has quoted the bible as a reference to the coming of the 12 Imams. I will ask him when I see him next but I'm interested in getting feedback from your fantastic community in the meantime!

This aforementioned reference is where it says:

"Twelve princes shall [ishmael] beget, and I shall make him a great nation." [Gen. 17:20]

But later on, The Bible actually names these twelve men and says they are the twelve sons of Ishmael:

"And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth: and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,

And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,

Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah; [Gen. 25:13-15]

And right after that they make reference to the twelve princes again:

"These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; these are the twelve princes according to their nations." [Gen. 25:16]

Am I missing something deeper that he understands? Can anyone shed some light on this?

Thank you so much for reading and I look forward to hearing your responses.

- Alizée

[hasanhh]

(salam)

You are incorrect. These are near decendents of Ibrahim(as). 12 in two contexts denote: twelve tribes of Jacob(Israel) and the other 12 of Ismael(as).

A biblical concordance can help with some of your similar questions.

[Habil Ali]

Salaam Hasanhh.

Thank you for the reply and I will make sure to do that :)

[hasanhh]

Salaam Hasanhh.

Thank you for the reply and I will make sure to do that :)

Afwan

If you get any other Qs like this, send me a note.

[tahiraansari]

Salams and welcome,

Hadith tells us that the Prophet Mohammad and the Imams a.s. were mentioned in the previous books if not by name, by description.

Sorry that this is a quick note, but i went through the process you are going through now and out of frustration of all the massive amounts of info that wasn't necessarily well organized. I'd love to send you the easiest format I have seen for a newcomer.... each topic with a few pages of simple introduction followed by nothing but hadith... all in an order that paints the picture clearly.

It is good to have explanations from people, but the best is always from the Prophet and the Imams a.s. who Allah appointed to protect His Truth.

I don't know how to writeto you here or i would send my e-mail... so if you want, find out how write me here and i'll send whatever you need... i have about 50 different notebooks on various topics. it starts with Prophethood, Imammat, (who appoints them) and also the other topics... Health care advice from the Prohet and his Family a.s., Islamic perspectives on life, spirituality etc etc. It is all hadith and Tafsi (explanation) of Qur'an by the Prophet Mohammad and his Family a.s.

[Habil Ali]

Salams and welcome,

Hadith tells us that the Prophet Mohammad and the Imams a.s. were mentioned in the previous books if not by name, by description.

Sorry that this is a quick note, but i went through the process you are going through now and out of frustration of all the massive amounts of info that wasn't necessarily well organized. I'd love to send you the easiest format I have seen for a newcomer.... each topic with a few pages of simple introduction followed by nothing but hadith... all in an order that paints the picture clearly.

It is good to have explanations from people, but the best is always from the Prophet and the Imams a.s. who Allah appointed to protect His Truth.

I don't know how to writeto you here or i would send my e-mail... so if you want, find out how write me here and i'll send whatever you need... i have about 50 different notebooks on various topics. it starts with Prophethood, Imammat, (who appoints them) and also the other topics... Health care advice from the Prohet and his Family a.s., Islamic perspectives on life, spirituality etc etc. It is all hadith and Tafsi (explanation) of Qur'an by the Prophet Mohammad and his Family a.s.

My email is displayed on my profile. Be my guest! :D

[Habil Ali]

Afwan

If you get any other Qs like this, send me a note.

What do you mean by a note, sorry?

[Haydar Husayn]

There are no references to the 12 Imams (as) in the Bible. Some people just like to read into things that aren't there. They see the number 12 , and they try to make that into a reference to the Imams, even when the context clearly shows that it has nothing to do with them. However, the number 12 does obviously hold some significance in Islamic history, so it could perhaps be argued that it fits into some kind of pattern.12 tribes of Israel, 12 sons of Ishmael Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, 12 apostles of Jesus Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã, 12 Imams.

[Me sunni]

If the 12 imams are what the Shia claim then why did the profit saws say in a wajib Hadith that Imam Mehdi will have the same name as me, the same fathers name as me? So Mohamad Abu Adullah? If this is the case then the Shia line cannot work!

The bible should never be used as a reference for anything as its clearly been corrupted so badly!

If Imam Ali was what the Shia claim him to be HOW come he is not mentioned once in the Quran & please don't give me he was named indirectly cause my real name was mentioned many times in the Quran....

[mehdi soldier]

(salam)

You are incorrect. These are near decendents of Ibrahim(as). 12 in two contexts denote: twelve tribes of Jacob(Israel) and the other 12 of Ismael(as).

A biblical concordance can help with some of your similar questions.

salam

brother for the sake of clarification on your statement,please can you explain what you mean by "near descendants of Ibrahim (as)".

what do you mean by 12 in two contexts? are the 12 tribes different from 12 offspring? then how did the 12 tribes emerge?

thank you.

[abdulazim]

Salams and welcome,

Hadith tells us that the Prophet Mohammad and the Imams a.s. were mentioned in the previous books if not by name, by description.

Sorry that this is a quick note, but i went through the process you are going through now and out of frustration of all the massive amounts of info that wasn't necessarily well organized. I'd love to send you the easiest format I have seen for a newcomer.... each topic with a few pages of simple introduction followed by nothing but hadith... all in an order that paints the picture clearly.

It is good to have explanations from people, but the best is always from the Prophet and the Imams a.s. who Allah appointed to protect His Truth.

I don't know how to writeto you here or i would send my e-mail... so if you want, find out how write me here and i'll send whatever you need... i have about 50 different notebooks on various topics. it starts with Prophethood, Imammat, (who appoints them) and also the other topics... Health care advice from the Prohet and his Family a.s., Islamic perspectives on life, spirituality etc etc. It is all hadith and Tafsi (explanation) of Qur'an by the Prophet Mohammad and his Family a.s.

salaam, could i trouble you to send this to me aswell, would be great for my learning too. will send my email in PM

ahsant

[hasanhh]

salam

brother for the sake of clarification on your statement,please can you explain what you mean by "near descendants of Ibrahim (as)".

what do you mean by 12 in two contexts? are the 12 tribes different from 12 offspring? then how did the 12 tribes emerge?

thank you.

(salam)

When I said "near descendants" I mean close to in generations to Ibrahim(as). As per Genesis Chap21ff. It is Ibrahim(as), Issac(as), Jacob(as), Joseph(as) and his eleven brothers. These 12 brothers became the 12 Tribes of Israel. Ibrahim had 2 sons Issac(as) and Ismael(as). Ref. Genesis17, Ismael(as) is the father of 12 princes/tribes.

Tahirransari: About regerences to "in the former books", the Old Testament was re-written 300-200 B.C.E. in the Macabean Era and a lot of things were deleted.

[muhibb-ali]

Salam.

This is what I could find out.

أنا اسمي في الإنجيل « إليا » ، وفي التوراة « بريا » ، وفي الزبور « اري » (4) ، وعند الهند « كابر » (5) ، وعند الروم « بطريسا » ، وعند الفرس « جبير » (6) وعند الترك « تبير » (7) ، وعند الزنج « حيتر » (8) وعند الكهنة « بوسي » ، وعند الحبشة « بتريك » وعند امي « حيدرة » ، وعند ظئري « ميمون » ، وعند العرب « علي » ، وعند الأرمن « فريق » ، وعند أبي « ظهيرا »

Imam Ali (as) says:

My name in the Bible is 'ILIYA', and in the Torah is 'BARI', and in the Zaboor is 'ERI'. Indians know my name as 'KAABER', Romans know me as 'BIT'RISA', Persians know me as 'JOBEIR', Turks know me as 'TABIR', blacks know me as 'HEYTAR', Priests know me as 'BUSI', Abyssinians know me as 'BITRIK', My Mother knows me as 'HEYDARA', My nurse knows me as 'MAYMOUN'. Arabs know me as 'ALI', Armenians know me as 'FAREEQ', and my father knows me as 'ZAHEER'.

[source: Maani Al Akhbar Pg. 59]

[Habil Ali]

^ Thank you Mehdi Soldier. I thought I was just missing something. Clearly I'm not the only one who was confused by it!

[Me sunni]

I think it's not correct to use the bible for any real reference as its been corrupted too much.

We Sunnis believe that the prophet saws said that imam Mahdi will have the same first name & fathers name as me. So the Shia linage cannot work for us...

What's the Shia view on this?

[Stormrage]

I think it's not correct to use the bible for any real reference as its been corrupted too much.

We Sunnis believe that the prophet saws said that imam Mahdi will have the same first name & fathers name as me. So the Shia linage cannot work for us...

What's the Shia view on this?

We have this hadeeth as well, however we do not have the prophet saying his father's name will be like my father's name. I beleive both of us have a hadeeth where he sais his name will be like my name. It is also said the 12th Imam will be of the progeny of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).

Our 12th imam is Imam *** Al Mahdi (May Allah hasten his reappearance).

Edited July 25, 2012 by Basim Ali
Mentioning the name of Imam al-Aakhir is strictly forbidden in ahadith, fyi.

[muhibb-ali]

Another narration of Imam Ali (as) being mentioned in earlier books:

يا عليّ، ذكرك في التوراة وذكر شيعتك قبل أن يخلقوا بكلّ خير، وكذلك في الانجيل. فاسأل أهل الانجيل وأهل الكتاب يخبروك عن "إليا" مع علمك بالتوراة والانجيل وما أعطاك الله عزّ وجلّ من علم الكتاب، وإن أهل الإنجيل ليتعاظمون إليا وما يعرفون شيعته، وإنّما يعرفونهم بما يجدونه في كتبهم

Prophet Muhammad (saww) said:

O Ali, in the Torah and the Gospel, your Shia and you are mentioned in a good reference before they were created. Ask the people of the Torah and the people of

the Kitab27 to tell you about 'Eli'; yet, you are well versed in the Torah and the Gospel. The structuralists honor Eli, but they do not know his Shia. They know him

as much as that which is recorded in their books.

[source: Fazaail ush Shia - Sheikh Sadooq, Hadees. 17]

[Habil Ali]

^ ELI?! Gotta go find my Bible and check this out now...

[Habil Ali]

Okay here's what I found out. My parents are Christian and I was just speaking to my parents over the phone (who were looking through their bibles for me, because I am here at work). Eli was a very pious man, but not a very good example of a reference to Imam Ali...in in the shortest terms, his sons were wicked men and because Eli did not punish them for their actions, God placed a curse upon his entire lineage (Eli was, as well, of the Hebrew descent), saying that none of his descendants would grow old because of his actions.

When he found out the Ark of the Covenant was taken, Eli fell down at the gate post of the city and died. the Israelites believed that if they had the Ark it would protect them but God used his wrath for Eli's actions against them. Eli was 98 years old.

Would you please explain the connection to Imam Ali (as) ?

Thank you

- Sukeyna

[Haydar Husayn]

There is no connection. You just have some people that will believe in any hadith that they like the sound of, whether it is likely to be fabricated or not, or whether it makes any sense or not.

Please, in order to to make yourself look foolish in front of your Christian family and friends, do not trust what you read here about the Bible unless the person is actually quoting from it, and providing some kind of reasonable argument for his or her claims. In this particular example, notice that the person did not quote any passages from the Bible where it would have made sense from the context that it was a reference to Imam Ali Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã.

[ילדת מלך]

Salams and welcome,

Hadith tells us that the Prophet Mohammad and the Imams a.s. were mentioned in the previous books if not by name, by description.

Sorry that this is a quick note, but i went through the process you are going through now and out of frustration of all the massive amounts of info that wasn't necessarily well organized. I'd love to send you the easiest format I have seen for a newcomer.... each topic with a few pages of simple introduction followed by nothing but hadith... all in an order that paints the picture clearly.

It is good to have explanations from people, but the best is always from the Prophet and the Imams a.s. who Allah appointed to protect His Truth.

I don't know how to writeto you here or i would send my e-mail... so if you want, find out how write me here and i'll send whatever you need... i have about 50 different notebooks on various topics. it starts with Prophethood, Imammat, (who appoints them) and also the other topics... Health care advice from the Prohet and his Family a.s., Islamic perspectives on life, spirituality etc etc. It is all hadith and Tafsi (explanation) of Qur'an by the Prophet Mohammad and his Family a.s.

Tahira --Can I, too, trouble you for this ?--

[JawzofDETH]

The verse about 12 Princes definitely does not refer to the 12 Imaams (as)

1) These are the 12 princes that fulfill the promise of to Ishmael (as) of "a great nation."

2) Abraham (as) would not mention the Imaams (as) while not mentioning RasulAllah (pbuh) himself !

How logical can it be to mention Ali (as) to Mahdi (as) while not mentioning the man himself whom will bring the law they maintain?

Was-Salaam

(salam)

You are incorrect. These are near decendents of Ibrahim(as). 12 in two contexts denote: twelve tribes of Jacob(Israel) and the other 12 of Ismael(as).

A biblical concordance can help with some of your similar questions.

No, they denote the 12 children of of Ishmael.

Kedar being a descendant of Ishmael (as) not Isaac (as)

Kedar is the ancestor of the holy Prophet (pbuh)

If the 12 imams are what the Shia claim then why did the profit saws say in a wajib Hadith that Imam Mehdi will have the same name as me, the same fathers name as me? So Mohamad Abu Adullah? If this is the case then the Shia line cannot work!

The bible should never be used as a reference for anything as its clearly been corrupted so badly!

If Imam Ali was what the Shia claim him to be HOW come he is not mentioned once in the Quran & please don't give me he was named indirectly cause my real name was mentioned many times in the Quran....

This tradition you mentioned is incorrect, there were two groups that spread this tradition about "father's name"

1) The followers of Nafs-Az-Zakiyah whose name was Muhammad ibn Abdullah.

2) The Fatimids whom want to give position to Abdullah Ubaydallahbillah's son Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Qaim Mahdi.

So the father's name traditions "Abdullah" were used as propaganda.

The Prophet's (pbuh) said that the Mahdi's name would be his name (Meem-heh-Meem-daal)

and his kunya would be the same as his kunya i.e Abul Qasim.

Was-Salaam

Edited August 15, 2012 by JawzofDETH

[Chaotic Muslem]

^ ELI?! Gotta go find my Bible and check this out now...

In Sodouq book "Amali" which is a collection of his lectures , there is one hadith graded as Mu'tabar

ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈí ÑÖí Çááå Úäå ¡ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÓÚÏ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå ¡ ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÃÍãÏ ÇÈä ãÍãÏ Èä ÎÇáÏ ¡ Úä ÇáÞÇÓã Èä íÍíì ¡ Úä ÌÏå ÇáÍÓä Èä ÑÇÔÏ ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå ÇáÕÇÏÞ ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ ¡ Úä ÂÈÇÆå ¡ Úä ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã ¡ ÞÇá : ÞÇá áí ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå Úáì ãäÈÑå

íÇ Úáí ¡ ÐßÑß Ýí ÇáÊæÑÇÉ æÐßÑ ÔíÚÊß ÞÈá Ãä íÎáÞæÇ Èßá ÎíÑ ¡ æ ßÐáß Ýí ÇáÅäÌíá ¡ ÝÓá Ãåá ÇáÅäÌíá æÃåá ÇáßÊÇÈ Úä ÅáíÇ íÎÈÑæß ¡ ãÚ Úáãß ÈÇáÊæÑÇÉ æÇáÅäÌíá æãÇ ÃÚØÇß Çááå ÚÒ æÌá ãä Úáã ÇáßÊÇÈ ¡ æÅä Ãåá ÇáÅäÌíá áíÊÚÇÙãæä ÅáíÇ æãÇ íÚÑÝæäå ¡ æãÇ íÚÑÝæä ÔíÚÊå ¡ æÅäãÇ íÚÑÝæäåã ÈãÇ íÌÏæäåã Ýí ßÊÈåã

The hadith is about the Prophet telling imam Ali that he was mentioned in the bible as Elia but the christians would not recognize who Elia is though they highly respect him

but as a brother from another forum pointed in a similar discussion, it is unlikely that the name of the Imam is in the Bible anymore if it was mentioned in it at all, most likely that its fate is the same as the fate of our prophet name in the bible or Turah (according to Quran the name of our prophet is mentioned in the old books )

[Chaotic Muslem]

The verse about 12 Princes definitely does not refer to the 12 Imaams (as)

1) These are the 12 princes that fulfill the promise of to Ishmael (as) of "a great nation."

2) Abraham (as) would not mention the Imaams (as) while not mentioning RasulAllah (pbuh) himself !

How logical can it be to mention Ali (as) to Mahdi (as) while not mentioning the man himself whom will bring the law they maintain?

Was-Salaam

No, they denote the 12 children of of Ishmael.

Kedar being a descendant of Ishmael (as) not Isaac (as)

Kedar is the ancestor of the holy Prophet (pbuh)

This tradition you mentioned is incorrect, there were two groups that spread this tradition about "father's name"

1) The followers of Nafs-Az-Zakiyah whose name was Muhammad ibn Abdullah.

2) The Fatimids whom want to give position to Abdullah Ubaydallahbillah's son Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Qaim Mahdi.

So the father's name traditions "Abdullah" were used as propaganda.

The Prophet's (pbuh) said that the Mahdi's name would be his name (Meem-heh-Meem-daal)

and his kunya would be the same as his kunya i.e Abul Qasim.

Was-Salaam

1- Prophet Mohamad was mentioned in old books according to Quran

2- Jews refuse to believe in his prophethood because he is not a decendant fron Isaac

3- we do know about the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 disples of Jesus, i dont remmber there are any signifact 12 figures that the holy books should mention beside those, i dont see why it isnt possible that the 12 "princes" are the imams

4- there is no "great" nation from the decendants of Ismael that i know of in history beside the nation of our prophet

[Jaysro]

Salams and welcome,

Hadith tells us that the Prophet Mohammad and the Imams a.s. were mentioned in the previous books if not by name, by description.

Sorry that this is a quick note, but i went through the process you are going through now and out of frustration of all the massive amounts of info that wasn't necessarily well organized. I'd love to send you the easiest format I have seen for a newcomer.... each topic with a few pages of simple introduction followed by nothing but hadith... all in an order that paints the picture clearly.

It is good to have explanations from people, but the best is always from the Prophet and the Imams a.s. who Allah appointed to protect His Truth.

I don't know how to writeto you here or i would send my e-mail... so if you want, find out how write me here and i'll send whatever you need... i have about 50 different notebooks on various topics. it starts with Prophethood, Imammat, (who appoints them) and also the other topics... Health care advice from the Prohet and his Family a.s., Islamic perspectives on life, spirituality etc etc. It is all hadith and Tafsi (explanation) of Qur'an by the Prophet Mohammad and his Family a.s.

Salaam, could you please send it to me as well, thank you very much!

Jaysro@hotmail.com

[JawzofDETH]

1- Prophet Mohamad was mentioned in old books according to Quran

2- Jews refuse to believe in his prophethood because he is not a decendant fron Isaac

3- we do know about the 12 tribes of Israel and 12 disples of Jesus, i dont remmber there are any signifact 12 figures that the holy books should mention beside those, i dont see why it isnt possible that the 12 "princes" are the imams

4- there is no "great" nation from the decendants of Ismael that i know of in history beside the nation of our prophet

1) No one denies that.

2) Has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

3) Just because you are unaware of the historical facts does not invalidate them, there is biblical evidence of 12 officers in charge in the time of Solomon (as) in the bible, should we reject this also because we you are unaware of them or also wish to make the imaams fit where they don't belong? ...And besides, more importantly the Qur'aan mentions Musa (as) appoints 12 cheiftans, you haven't mentioned them either.

4) The same verse that you are trying to connect with the 12 Imaams mentions "great nation."

So again, you're unawareness of the genealogical realities or the biblical context here does not make a point for discussion.

The "great" refers to multitude or number, resulting from Ishmael (as) having had 12 sons, it is not used as a descriptive word.

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."

Was-Salaam

[JawzofDETH]

I must advise after double-checking that the holy Prophet (pbuh) may have been a descendant of Kedar, but I'm not sure. There appears to be some conflicting views about this...

This article : http://www.missionis...mprel/isiah.htm

...and many like it state the holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a descendant of Kedar.

They were those whom 'settled in 'Paran' (Faran/ Hejaz)

So this is a logical conclusion.

But this geneology that I myself a while back modified from content I found on playandlearn.org says he was a descendant from Nabth:

http://www.shiachat....50#entry2295398

So I'm not sure which is right... :donno:

Was-Salaam

Edited August 22, 2012 by JawzofDETH

[Musa]

If Imam Ali was what the Shia claim him to be HOW come he is not mentioned once in the Quran & please don't give me he was named indirectly cause my real name was mentioned many times in the Quran....

Both Sunnis and Shia agree that verses in the Qur'an refer to Imam Ali so you can refer to your own books.

I will give you an example, I do not know the exact verse number but both sects of Islam believe that it is referring to Imam Ali. At one point in Islam Allah ordered people to give the prophet a payment for asking him questions, and to my knowledge most or all of the people stopped asking the prophet questions except for Imam Ali who would ask him many questions and give him the payment. After that Allah took this burden off the people so they did not have to pay.

Other examples:

Shakir 42:23] That is of which Allah gives the good news to His servants, (to) those who believe and do good deeds. Say: ; and I do not ask of you any reward for it but love for my near relatives whoever earns good, We give him more of good therein; surely Allah is Forgiving, Grateful.

This is speaking about the ahlul bayt which includes Imam Ali.

[Shakir 3:61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

I do not know the sunni view on mubahillah but according to shia belief at least, the prophet took his sons, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (really his grandsons, but the Qur'an refers to them as his sons and that is the same reason why Shia's refer to them as his sons). His women, refers to Lady Fatima and "ourselves" or near people as it is translated here refers to Imam Ali.

[Shakir 33:33] And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you a (thorough) purifying.

Tirmidhi, Ibn Jarir Tabari, Hakim and Tibrani have related from Ummi Salima that when this verse was revealed the Holy Prophet was under a blanket or mantle along with Ali, Fatimah, Hasan and Husayn, and he declared that his family consisted of only these persons. Ummi Salima, his wife, within whose quarters the revelation came, asked permission to be included in the group under the blanket, but she was politely refused permission. The group is known ever since with the epithet "panjtan pak" or "the holy group of five".

Ibn Hajr in Sawa-iq, chapter 11, page 160 and Ibn Sad in Tabaqat in the account of Umar bin Khattab have accepted that the near relatives of the Holy Prophet are the Ahl ul Bayt. The same opinion is found in Tafsir Kashaf, Sahih Muslim, Musnad ibn Hanbal and Tafsir Durr al Manthur.

The "leaders" of the Islamic ummah were known to curse Imam Ali and torture/kill followers of Ali, so it is only logical that Allah did not put his name directly in the Qur'an. The Qur'an would have definitely been changed if this was so. There are also other ayyats, maybe others on this forum can mention them (one comes to mind about Imam Ali and the Qur'an talking about those who give zakat during prayer.

Peace be upon you.

[bitto]

Assalaam alaikum

"Twelve prince(s) shall [ishmael] beget, and I shall make him a great nation." [Gen. 17:20]

But later on, The Bible actually names these twelve men and says they are the twelve sons of Ishmael:

"And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth: and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,

And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,

Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah; [Gen. 25:13-15]

And right after that they make reference to the twelve princes again:

"These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; these are the twelve prince(s) according to their nations." [Gen. 25:16]

Well ,those well versed with both Injeel and Quraan e pak can understand it very easily.Since Allah did say that many times in the Quran that the verses are sometimes signs and these signs are enough for people who understand.So why do you people maybe jew ,christian or any Muslim start thinking all of a sudden that Mazallah Quran will be as clear and simple like ABC book.May be when you were small,you found that book too ,too complex to understand. So you must be patient and try to learn and understand.

Imam Ali(a.s) was called Ishmael by the jews of his time.They called him Ishmael as they thought and believed angel Ishmael to be the distributor of food to all mankind.When they saw Ali(a.s) giving food to many and everyday ,they laughed and called him Ishmael.So didn't Allah reveal to them in their own language.The Jews spoke that with their own mouths and now if they deny it is upto Allah to decide about them and nothing else.We should all be patient.

The first born of Ishmael how clearly is it mentioned "the first born " it clearly mentions Imamat of Imam Hasan(a.s).

Nebajoth ---- Neba is a place in between (Mecca/Medina to karbala).Joth in hebrew language means "to travel".Jothua means a traveller.So again as the first person who posted this topic has mentioned in his post that they will be known by places.Yes Imam Husain(a.s) is the one who travelled from Medina to Mecca and from Mecca to kerbala.This is a very well known fact and hence makes it very clear as to who is the Imam.A very clear sign.

Qeedar was a king who hide himself to worship Allah.This again is a sign towards Imam Zain ul Abideen(a.s) who sent food to the poor ,gave land to the rich and coins and rings to the other shia people.But he remained hidden most time of his Imamat and spent his time in Ibadat (worship) of Allah and hence title "Zain al Abideen" meaning "pride/jewel of the worshippers."This again is a very clear sign for those who wanted to understand and people did understand in those good olden days.Thanks to all those Jews who became Muslims.Alhamdolillah.

Adbeel in hebrew or aramaic language means tadbeer.Tadbeer e Mohammed ---.> Imam Mohammed Baqir(a.s)

Mibsam converts to Arabic/Persian "Meesam" meaning clear in aramaic,hebrew meaning bright,in Arabic masoom as well as bright.It clearly states a man of high intelligence,clear wisdom,a very bright person full of noor Imam Jafar as Sadiq(a.s) who was well know amongst the jews as a bright person.They did call him by different names "Qamar" meaning moon ,also "Mibsam" meaning bright.These names were called out by the jews of those times,so this time people need not argue about it as they were not present at that time.

Mishma is also called Mahishma or can be said a slang used by the then jews.Originally Mahishma means a saintly person.A saint of high honour.Imam Moosa e Kazim(a.s) was well known for his quiet nature.He did not argue or fight with anybody.Rather he kept praying and looked towards the sky even if somebody hurled abuses at him.So he was called Saint by the his neighbouring Jews who laughed and joked about him,but finally gave up calling him a saint ,a "Mishma".

Another meaning Mishma if derived from Ishma meaning wealth(khazana) in Hebrew.Here again it can be wealth of world as well as deen(religion).If Mishma is a change of Hishma which jews used to call shia muslims as descendants of Hashim.But then it won't be that clear.

Dumah or Zummah as pronounced by shias is a very sweet type of date palm fruit.Imam Ali Raza (a.s) spoke in a very sweet manner even with his enemies.Seeing his behaviour the Jews named him/called him Dumah(the sweet one).

Massa is a variation used by jews for the word "Messiah" .Mesiha in urdu.Imam Mohammed Taqi(a.s) had the habit of helping everybody irrespective of the person's faith.So he was called "Messiah" or "Massa" by the jews who never spoke clearly but spoke in slangs and didn't Allah speak to them in their own language.

Hedar meaning lion.also a brave man,an intelligent warrior.The people who witnessed the event of Khaibar called Ali(a.s) a lion.Hedar or Haidar was then generally used to call somebody Ali.Since Imam Ali Naqi(a.s) was much like Moula Ali(a.s), and his name too Ali,the jews called him Haidar ,the same which they used ti call Imam Ali(a.s).

Tema again is used for a general reference to any Imam possessing the quality of distibuting taam meaning distributing food.Although the word "tema" is used by jews for a person appointed by a king to distribute food.

Jetur in Hebrew and other Aramaic languages means "Fatah" meaning victorius.Imam Hasan Askari(a.s) as a youth got never subdued by anybody in a fight.Hence the jews who fought with him in his boyish age lost to him and called him Jetur the victorius.

Naphish and Qadeema referring to the qualities of our very very nice Imam in ghaib,Imam Mehdi(a.s).

Naphish in hebrew meaning Nafees meaning a very sophisticated person.Qadeema as pronounced by jews mostly adding "a" to every word.Qadeema here refers to Qadeem.

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[bitto]

Qadeem means Qayam means living.This again refers to the 12th Imam(a.s)

Shukran

[Haydar Husayn]

So to make this reference to the 12 Imams work, you have to identify Imam Ali (as) with Ishmael (as), one of the sons to be any Imam, and then the final two sons of Ishmael with Imam Mahdi (as)? Pretty desperate stuff.

Anyway, you seem to have misunderstood something. Nebajoth is actually the first born son of Ishmael (as), not a seperate person.

[daydreamer01]

Salams and welcome,

Hadith tells us that the Prophet Mohammad and the Imams a.s. were mentioned in the previous books if not by name, by description.

Sorry that this is a quick note, but i went through the process you are going through now and out of frustration of all the massive amounts of info that wasn't necessarily well organized. I'd love to send you the easiest format I have seen for a newcomer.... each topic with a few pages of simple introduction followed by nothing but hadith... all in an order that paints the picture clearly.

It is good to have explanations from people, but the best is always from the Prophet and the Imams a.s. who Allah appointed to protect His Truth.

I don't know how to writeto you here or i would send my e-mail... so if you want, find out how write me here and i'll send whatever you need... i have about 50 different notebooks on various topics. it starts with Prophethood, Imammat, (who appoints them) and also the other topics... Health care advice from the Prohet and his Family a.s., Islamic perspectives on life, spirituality etc etc. It is all hadith and Tafsi (explanation) of Qur'an by the Prophet Mohammad and his Family a.s.

salaam, i would be grateful if you could share your notes with me as well: perpetualdreamer01@gmail.com

thank you in advance.

[bitto]

Nobody is forcing anyone to believe.So nobody is desperate.Desperate for what? Quran is sufficient.We Muslims don't need old references.It was for the jews and christians.

[dexter]

This link might prove to be of some help to the members. :)

http://www.al-islam.org/londonlectures/title.htm

[Luqman72]

This discussion i find intersesting. I would have expected to find uniform conviction in some kind of 'hint'. Whether Allah swt deals with certain numbers especially is iirc not stated in koran. I think what the 12 may do though is form a sense of dynamic fusion with historical prophetic tradition.