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MysticKnight

Did Abu Baker Succeed Prophet (sunni View Point)?

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Not much of an answer from you is it?

il repeat my question again.

If you look at salah zakah saum hajj jihad etc Allah is directly telling us to do them ie pray salah give zakah do jihad etc, BUT when it comes to Imamat you throw history verses at me, why??

Surah 3 verse 7 please read and ponder over it, friend

Firstly, no he doesn't. Search through all the 114 chapters of the Qur'an, you will nowhere will it tell you to how to do Salaat, we rely on the Ahadith for that. Secondly, we clearly see Imamate in the Qur'an at 4:59:

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

Clearly written right there. Note the following points, firstly this "Wali Al Amr(Ulil Amr)" needs to be from the Mo'mineen, ie. a believer (That strikes out a lot of the Fasiqs who ascended to power), thus he cannot be a sinner, or one who has done wrong, or will do wrong (2:214 indicates a leader or one in command not be a "Wrong doer"). Next point, this person has the same authority as the Prophet (pbuh) as we see this. Obey Allah, thus his authority is different than the Prophet's. Obey the Messenger and those in authority from you. It did not state obey again, thus stating his authority is the same as the Prophet's (pbuh) . And like we stated a wrong doer cannot be one in authority, so your "Sheikhs" and 3/4 Khalifat Al Rashideen are not the ones being referred to.

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ALAJALYALMAM

FIRSTLY NO HE DOESN'T 

Actually yes he does i never said Quran tells you HOW to pray I said Allah says pray so we CAN look at Hadith to see how.

SECONDLY WE CLEARLY SEE IMAMAT IN QURAN AT 4:59

CLEARLY errr... I don't think so Allah is pointing out to anyone military leader etc

Question do you even know when or why this verse was revealed or are you playing Lego with Quran? Tell me is playing Lego with the Quran a genetically things for Shia?

3. Quran 2:214

Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? They encountered suffering and adversity and were so shaken in spirit that even the Apostle and those of faith who were with him cried: "When (will come) the help of Allah?" Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near!

WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT

4. WRONGDOER CANNOT BE IN AUTHORITY

"they were wrongdoers" your opinion 

"they were not wrongdoers" my opinion GET OVER IT

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ALAJALYALMAM

FIRSTLY NO HE DOESN'T

Actually yes he does i never said Quran tells you HOW to pray I said Allah says pray so we CAN look at Hadith to see how.

http://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=%D8%B5%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%A9+&translator=1&search=1&start=0

No where, but giving you the benefit of the doubt, let's just say what you now are saying what you meant.

SECONDLY WE CLEARLY SEE IMAMAT IN QURAN AT 4:59

CLEARLY errr... I don't think so Allah is pointing out to anyone military leader etc

Question do you even know when or why this verse was revealed or are you playing Lego with Quran? Tell me is playing Lego with the Quran a genetically things for Shia?

Turn off your damned caps lock.

Lol, what was the Prophet? An authority, who also held the power of being a military leader, when you obey an authority such as the one being talked about, they, for one, hold authority over all affairs (As is the definition of an Imam), two you are to obey them in their orders.

3. Quran 2:214

Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? They encountered suffering and adversity and were so shaken in spirit that even the Apostle and those of faith who were with him cried: "When (will come) the help of Allah?" Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near!

I really have no idea why on earth you would quote this verse seeing as it has nothing to do with what is being discussed.

WHAT YOU TALKING ABOUT

4. WRONGDOER CANNOT BE IN AUTHORITY

"they were wrongdoers" your opinion

"they were not wrongdoers" my opinion GET OVER IT

Though wrongdoers can be in authority, they cannot be in the authority I'm talking about, and that is being discussed right now. And I'm not using an opinion here, this is pure history. The one who usurps the land of the daughter of the Prophet (pbuh) , the one who takes the right of succession from the son-in-law of the Prophet (pbuh) . The one who kills the daughter of the Prophet (pbuh) the one who adds things into the religion. The one who appoints the corrupt family members of his, the one who uses the public's money for himself and his family. Are such people pious? By Allah no, they are the wrongdoers.

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ALAJALYALMAM

1. NOWHERE.

Oh really 

2:43 And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).

2. Ali was also military leader so were other sahaba so what's your point they were given authority over other sahaba. 

Please stop it if u want to play Lego go and join some play group, don't play Lego with quran

3. Look at your previous post you mentioned 2:214

4. The rest is your opinion added with a load of Shia propaganda 

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ALAJALYALMAM

1. NOWHERE.

Oh really

2:43 And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).

Yes because that is clearly telling me the steps it takes, the rakats, what to recite in them, the whole fiqh for it.

2. Ali was also military leader so were other sahaba so what's your point they were given authority over other sahaba.

Please stop it if u want to play Lego go and join some play group, don't play Lego with quran

Firstly, I have no clue how you're using this to try to debunk me, but I'll bite. Number one like I stated, the Ulil Amr has authority over all affairs. Number two, when someone went to do an expedition, they were always under the order of the Prophet (pbuh) to lead it.

3. Look at your previous post you mentioned 2:214

Sorry I got the reference wrong, it's Qur'an 2:124

4. The rest is your opinion added with a load of Shia propaganda

Propaganda and opinion? Lol, this is history brother.

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1. Seriously brother have you even read the previous post before posting your own.

Ok I said before all other usul ad din and other (must do's) Allah clearly says do this do that believe this believe that but when it comes to Imamat you show me history verses and start playing around with a few verses from Quran. Why ? Find me a clear verse where we Muslims are told to follow infalliable imams

2. O you who believe! Obey Allah and Obey the messenger and THOSE with authority among you.

I'm guessing the word THOSE means multiple people. Otherwise if Allah was talking about prophet then he would have said and THE one with authority among you, right?

3. Quran 2:124 

So you're saying opposite of evildoer is infalliable. Wow you amaze me.

So all the rest of us who are falliable are wrongdoers 

So why did Allah not make Salman al farsi, amar bin yasser imams were they evil doers (astagfirullah)

4. Like I said YOUR propaganda. 

Tell me brother why do Shia cling on to the matter of the fadak so tightly while within this debate regarding fadak your own book embarrasses you? Or do you like looking silly?

“The Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance, but they left knowledge.” (al-Kafi, vol. 1 p. 42)

 

Anyway I'll reply in morning to any of your replies going sleep got work in the morning salams.

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1. Seriously brother have you even read the previous post before posting your own.

Ok I said before all other usul ad din and other (must do's) Allah clearly says do this do that believe this believe that but when it comes to Imamat you show me history verses and start playing around with a few verses from Quran. Why ? Find me a clear verse where we Muslims are told to follow infalliable imams

Again this verse is crystal clear tying in with the Qur'an. What's an Imam in our definition? A leader/authority/guide from Allah, with the same authority as the Prophet, to whom obeidiance is Wajib, they are only infallible, why, we cannot obey such an authority who is a Dhalim (2:124).

2. O you who believe! Obey Allah and Obey the messenger and THOSE with authority among you.

I'm guessing the word THOSE means multiple people. Otherwise if Allah was talking about prophet then he would have said and THE one with authority among you, right?

How many Imams were there, one or 12?

3. Quran 2:124

So you're saying opposite of evildoer is infalliable. Wow you amaze me.

So all the rest of us who are falliable are wrongdoers

So why did Allah not make Salman al farsi, amar bin yasser imams were they evil doers (astagfirullah)

Evildoer? Lol twisting my words, I said wrongdoer, Evildoer is someone beyond Islam, a Fasiq or an open sinner. I'm saying a fallible creature. And Salman and Ammar were Imams? Lol, that's new.

4. Like I said YOUR propaganda.

Tell me brother why do Shia cling on to the matter of the fadak so tightly while within this debate regarding fadak your own book embarrasses you? Or do you like looking silly?

Books handled below. And why do we hang on so tightly? The same reason we hold onto everything we do, an injustice occurred, and we pray the oppressors are dealt with by Allah, that these injustices are no played off, nor forgotten. And no, they are clear narrated history, if they were just in Shi'a books, then you could bring an argument forth, but they're not.

"The Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance, but they left knowledge." (al-Kafi, vol. 1 p. 42)

Two things to take into consideration:

1. Kitab Al Kafi is not a book written by Sheikh Al Kulayni to be Sahih, it was a collection of everything he had heard in his lifetime, and he just put it into a book. The book it's self contains about 5000 Sahih Hadith, 7000 Dha'eef, and the rest are Hasan and what not. Therefore that's why we check authenticity in these matters before quoting.

2. If you ask the Hadith experts on this site (Qa'im being the one I asked), the understanding of this Hadith is that Prophets do not come to the earth to be rich men, and to give out money and land, rather to give knowledge. However since they are Humans, and the Qur'an tells us about the importance of leaving wills and inheritance, they leave behind as well. Also use the following Hadith as a focal point, courtesy of Islamistruth101:

Zurara narrated that Abi Jaffar (as) said: ‘Ali inherited the knowledge of Allah's messenger and Fatima inherited his property.’

1. Al-Kafi, Volume 7 page 86

2. Basair al-Darajat, page 314

3. Tahdib al-Ahkam, Volume 9 page 277

4. Min la Yahdrahu al-Faqih, Volume 4 page 261

5. Manaqib al Abi Talib, Volume 2 page 26

6. Allamah Majlisi declared it Hasan in Mirat al-Uqool, Volume 23 page 32

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Alajalyalmam

1. Quran 2:124 so hold up what you're saying that Allah never made other companions infalliable imams because they were .... Zalim. Also before you start typing away could you please tell me when and why this verse was revealed?

2. Again when and why was this was revealed 

3. Wow u now have 16 infalliable ammar bin yasser and salman al Farsi 2 u sure u dnt wanna include abu dharr, miqdad aswell?

4. An injustice occured errrr.... No u mean justice occured. Prophets do not leave inheritance all they leave is knowledge. Other injustice Umar set door on fire and broke Fatima ribs while Ali sat back and observed.... Oh yea brilliant so believable, I'm sure he was asadullah wernt he?

5. Actually dear the Hadith which I pointed out to you is sahih guess what khomenei had to say about it in his book:

 “The narrators of this tradition are all reliable and trustworthy. The father of ‘Ali ibn Ibrahim [namely Ibrahim ibn Hashim] is not only reliable, [but in fact] he is one of the most reliable and trustworthy narrators.”

(source: Khomeini, al-Hukumat al-Islamiyyah, p. 133, published by Markaz Baqiyyat Allah al-A’zam, Beirut)

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It is funny that Sunni's bring out Abdullah bin Saba, a Jew convert to Islam, as a founder of Tashiyu thought there is nothing ever narrated from him and even his existence is doubtful at best.

I have a theory that Abdullah bin Saba is actually Abu Huraira and he actually founded Sunni Islam or provided justifications to its existence. are

Abdullah bin Saba (c600-c670) = Abu Huraiara (c603-c683)

Jewish convert to Islam = Jewish Convert to Islam

did not narrate anything = narrated half of the religion of Sunnism (a third of the Bukhari Hadith are by him)

I think Abullah bin Saba was a smokescreen to divert attention to the real Jewish convert to Islam who helped shake the foundation of Islam

He was beaten up and accused of lying even by Sunni Godfather (Umar) and Godmother (Ayesha)

He was pampered by Muwayia (LA), the real enemy of Islam

Food for thought guys.

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RIGHTEOUS, RASUL

Al Kashi narrated that Muhammad ibn Qawlawliyyah said: “Sa’d ibn Abdullah told me: Yaqoob ibn Yazeed and Muhammad ibn Esa tolde from Ali ibn Mahziyar from Faddalah ibn Ayoob Al Azdi that Aban ibn Uthman said: I heard Abu Abdullah [as] saying:

‘May Allah curse Abdallah bin Saba’, he claimed a divineship for Amirul-Mu’mineen (Ali) [as]. By Allah, Amierul-Mu’mineen [as] was volunterily the slave of Allah. Woe to him who lie about us, for there are people who say about us what we don’t say about ourselves,we clear ourselves to Allah from them, we clear ourselves to Allah from them’.” (Rijal Al Kashi)

“Narrated Yaqoub bin Yazeed from Ibn Abi Omair and Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Issa, from his father and al-Husain bin Sa’eed, from Hisham bin Salim, from Abu Hamza al-Thumali said: Ali bin al-Husain [as] said: ‘May the curse of Allah be upon those who tell lies about us. I mentioned Abdullah Ibn Saba and each hair in my body stood up, Allah cursed him. Ali (as) was, by Allah, a proper servant of Allah, the brother of the Messenger of Allah (pbuh). He did not earn the graciousness/honor from Allah except with the obedience to Allah and His Messenger. And (similarly) the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) did not earn the honor from Allah except with his obedience to Allah’.”

Narrated Muhammad bin Khalid At-Tayalisi, from Ibn Abi Najran, from Abdullah bin Sinaan said: Abu Abdullah [as] said:

“We are a family of truthfulness. But we are not safe from a liar telling lies about us to undermine our truth with his lies in front of people. The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) was the most truthful among people in what he said (Lahjatan) and the most truthful among all humanity; and Musaylima used to lie on him. The Commander of Believers (as) was the most truthful one among the creation of Allah after the Messenger of Allah; and the one who used to lie on him, and tried to undermine his truthfulness and claimed lies about Allah, was Abdullah Ibn Saba.” .

SUCK IT

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Where do you see in the CHAIN OF NARRATORS his name? :lol:

When did I say you narrated anything from him, all I was doing was showing you that he existed and in your previous post you sent laanat to him so obviously you sent Lamar for some reason. Anyway stop derailing the thread and tell me:

Where is Imamat in Quran other usul ad din etc Allah is directly telling us do this do that believe this believe that, but when it comes to Imamat you throw history verses at me, why??

Iv gt something for you since you love history verses soo much:

Not that I'm using Quran history verses to prove usul ad din (hint hint) but I'm only giving you an example.

Quran 5:12 

Allah says he chose 12 leaders for Israelites yet Quran is written for Muslims so why didn't he say I've also chosen 12 leaders for Muslims after prophet, or even just say leaders?

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Are you really that retarded.......Rasul said we do not have narrations from Abdullah bin Saba. He never said of him.

On the other hand you have a bit too many from the real abdullah bin saba i.e. abu huraira....

you go "suck" that

Lol you can't runaway from it abdullah ibn Saba is your founding father, you got bum... By a Jew lol

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When did I say you narrated anything from him, all I was doing was showing you that he existed and in your previous post you sent laanat to him so obviously you sent Lamar for some reason. Anyway stop derailing the thread and tell me:

YOU CLAIMED THAT HE CREATED SHIISM

So how many hadith did Abdullah ibn Saba (la) narrate?

Where is Imamat in Quran other usul ad din etc Allah is directly telling us do this do that believe this believe that, but when it comes to Imamat you throw history verses at me, why??

Iv gt something for you since you love history verses soo much:

Not that I'm using Quran history verses to prove usul ad din (hint hint) but I'm only giving you an example.

You have no clue of what you are talking about lol

Quran 5:12

Allah says he chose 12 leaders for Israelites yet Quran is written for Muslims so why didn't he say I've also chosen 12 leaders for Muslims after prophet, or even just say leaders?

Because that is explanation of Ulul Amr which come with Sunnah - which is also revelation from Allah

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RASUL

You keep running away oh yea since when has sunnah of prophet been usul ad din???

Who said you need to narrate anything from him?

He planted the seed within Ali supporters (they were political supporters) and filled their heads with all this that Ali should have been number 1 etc etc till a handful of them fell in his satanic trap

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Are you really that retarded.......Rasul said we do not have narrations from Abdullah bin Saba. He never said of him.

On the other hand you have a bit too many from the real abdullah bin saba i.e. abu huraira....

you go "suck" that

Salam

I agree he is retarded ( his last post proofs that) :D

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Salam

I agree he is retarded ( his last post proofs that) :D

RASUL seriously I can't think of a single post where you have contributed positively AT ALL. You just come throw a few insults then vanish again, you seem to be a coward instead of answering questions you just derail threads with your silly childish comments

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A brilliant thread answered brilliantly by brother just the truth mashallah you have great knowledge and ur answers are to the point!!

Even the divvy stupid comments by ignorant fools doesnt put u off

Keep at it bro ur doing well amongst fools

Its sunnis like u who BREAK up the shia lies and tell us who they really are!

Much has been learnt much yet to be learned brother just the truth u are good keep at it

Helping me also learn

Edited by Blacknight

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:lol:

Obviously RASUL being rasul, nothing useful 2 say

A brilliant thread answered brilliantly by brother just the truth mashallah you have great knowledge and ur answers are to the point!!

Even the divvy stupid comments by ignorant fools doesnt put u off

Keep at it bro ur doing well amongst fools

Its sunnis like u who BREAK up the shia lies and tell us who they really are!

Much has been learnt much yet to be learned brother just the truth u are good keep at it

Helping me also learn

Thanks bro

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BLACKKNIGHT

if you ever get confused do not ask anyone on hear as you will not get an honest answer. Find yourself a good Sunni alim and ask him 2 educate you because 100 per cent we are on haqq.

I may not be on this forum for much longer as it's a total waste Of time, I rather spend it praying salah and doing good deeds.

As for the propoganda ie fadak etc then there are answers to all these. If this is the reason Shia think they are on the right path (fadak etc) well my brother other Shia sects also believe these stories but guess what twelve's call them misguided too you know why, because they do not believe in there imams, so the problem goes back to Imamate which till this day no Shia scholar has ever been able to prove.

Another thing where they get stuck is they believe world cannot survive without imam well then who was imam before Ali, if they say prophet then who was imam before prophet?

They come out with stupid answers like Abdul mutallib, but you know what till this day no Shia top scholar has ever said this as he knows how stupid he will look as they do not have any proof for such a claim.

All the rest is a load of [Edited Out] (fadak etc) as they do not have anything to do with aqidah, my brother you really think Allah will ask us on day of judgement on historical issues or how we followed Quran and sunnah.

Actually I don't know even what you are doing on this forum my brother as you will get nothing but lies told to you, all I can say to you is find a good Sunni alim and ask him whatever you want to know.

Salams your brother in islam

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so the problem goes back to Imamate which till this day no Shia scholar has ever been able to prove.

We've already given you verses from the Quran [4:59].. but even your own school acknowledges an imammate of 12 successors after the Prophet SAWS... so I don't know what you mean by it hasn't been proven.

They come out with stupid answers like Abdul mutallib, but you know what till this day no Shia top scholar has ever said this as he knows how stupid he will look as they do not have any proof for such a claim.

Again, do you know know all 124,000 Prophets (aleyhom assalaam)? If you don't, then can you say you believe in all Prophets according to your logic?

Also, it's logical to think that the previous imams (before Mostapha Salallahu aleyhi was sallam) also came from the lineage of Eshmail aleyhis salaam right?

It is reported from Imam Sadiq (a.s.) that there had been a gap of five hundred

years between Isa (a.s.) and the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.s.) and for two and a half

hundred years there was neither a prophet nor a manifest scholar (Imam). The narrator

asked: What were then the people doing? He said: They had clinged to the religion

of Isa (a.s.). He asked: How was their condition? He said: They were believers, and

added that the earth can never remain without a scholar, that is, if the scholar is not

manifest, he is hidden. Hayat al Qulub Volume 3

All the rest is a load of [Edited Out] (fadak etc) as they do not have anything to do with aqidah, my brother you really think Allah will ask us on day of judgement on historical issues or how we followed Quran and sunna

That's not every good language to use. Through the Ahlul Bayt is how you're supposed to follow Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet SAWS. Fatemeh's aleyhas salaam property is just one example of how falsehood was exposed.

Edited by Merdan

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Alajalyalmam

1. Quran 2:124 so hold up what you're saying that Allah never made other companions infalliable imams because they were .... Zalim. Also before you start typing away could you please tell me when and why this verse was revealed?

2. Again when and why was this was revealed

3. Wow u now have 16 infalliable ammar bin yasser and salman al Farsi 2 u sure u dnt wanna include abu dharr, miqdad aswell?

4. An injustice occured errrr.... No u mean justice occured. Prophets do not leave inheritance all they leave is knowledge. Other injustice Umar set door on fire and broke Fatima ribs while Ali sat back and observed.... Oh yea brilliant so believable, I'm sure he was asadullah wernt he?

5. Actually dear the Hadith which I pointed out to you is sahih guess what khomenei had to say about it in his book:

"The narrators of this tradition are all reliable and trustworthy. The father of 'Ali ibn Ibrahim [namely Ibrahim ibn Hashim] is not only reliable, [but in fact] he is one of the most reliable and trustworthy narrators."

(source: Khomeini, al-Hukumat al-Islamiyyah, p. 133, published by Markaz Baqiyyat Allah al-A'zam, Beirut)

1. It would be much easier to read what you're saying if you used punctuation, would save me time reviewing it, but I got it. Allah chose the Imams specially, and they themselves were aware of Allah and understood him. Allah did not make any Prophet or Imam so that they could not sin, no he made them human, it's that they chose not to sin in their grace and majesty, they chose to live perfectly in the eyes of Allah. And the other companions weren't Imams because they weren't sent to be Imams, it wasn't their mission to be.

As to why was it revealed, Allama Tabatabei (Rehm Allah) has narrated this Hadith under its revelation:

al-'Ayyashi has narrated in his Tafsir through several chains, from Safwan the camel-driver, that he said: "We were at Mecca; and the talk gradually reached the words of Allah And (remember) when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, then he fulfilled them." (The Imam) said: "That is, he completed them with Muhammad and 'Ali and the Imams from the descendants of 'Ali, as Allah says: Offspring, one from the other" (3:34)

2. Hadith of Imam Sadiq (as) from Tafsir Ayyashi under the Ayat explains:

æÝíå æÇáÚíÇÔí Úäå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã Ýí åÐå ÇáÂíÉ ÞÇá äÒáÊ Ýí Úáí Èä ÇÈí ØÇáÈ æÇáÍÓä æÇáÍÓíä Úáíåã ÇáÕáÇÉ æÇáÓáÇã ÝÞíá Çä ÇáäÇÓ íÞæáæä ÝãÇ áå áã íÓã ÚáíøÇð æÃåá ÈíÊå Ýí ßÊÇÈå ÝÞÇá ÝÞæáæÇ áåã äÒáÊ ÇáÕáÇÉ æáã íÓã Çááå áåã ËáÇËÇð æáÇ ÃÑÈÚÇð ÍÊì ßÇä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáøì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã ÝÓÑ Ðáß áåã äÒáÊ Úáíå ÇáÒßÇÉ æáã íÓã áåã ãä ßá ÃÑÈÚíä ÏÑåãÇð ÏÑåã ÍÊì ßÇä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáøì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã åæ ÇáÐí ÝÓÑ Ðáß áåã æäÒá ÇáÍÌ Ýáã íÞá ØæÝæÇ ÇÓÈæÚÇð ÍÊì ßÇä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáøì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã åæ ÇáÐí ÝÓÑ Ðáß áåã æä

3. That's what you said, see:

So why did Allah not make Salman al farsi, amar bin yasser imams were they evil doers (astagfirullah)

Another thing, a Fasiq or open sinner is an evildoer. Now you ask why Allah didn't make them Imams? Simple, they weren't chosen to be Imams, it wasn't their duty, thus it wasn't with them.

4. I had another debate with Ugly Jinn over this point, why didn't Imam Ali (as) not fight the enemies? Simple, the Prophet (pbuh) told him to remain patient:

  • “The women entered while crying and wailing. The Muhajirin and Ansar gathered behind the door and screamed with grief. Suddenly the Prophet (s) asked: ‘Where is Ali?’ Ali (as) came forward and entered. Ali (as) said: ‘I entered and hugged the Prophet (s).’ He said to me: ‘My Brother… these people will leave me and they will be busy with their affairs. The example of you is like the Ka’ba which Allah has made a sign so that people would come to it from deep valleys and faraway places, but the Ka’ba does not go to those places. I swear by Him who has sent me (as a Prophet), I warned them of great punishments after I informed each one of those men about your rights and I committed them to obey you and they all answered (positively)and submitted to you, but I definitely know they will act the opposite of what they have pledged. Once I leave this world and you have acted upon my will and placed my body in the grave, stay in your House until you compile the Holy Quran... Have patience regarding what will befall on you and her (Fatima) (as) until you meet me.’” Al-Radi, Khasa’is al-A’imma, p. 73 Al-Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 22, p. 474

5. Lol, my point on explaining to your our books was to point out that the Ahadith for our books need to be checked before being brought forth, I'd kindly ask you to read the rest of what I said.

*Sorry for the late reply, kind of hard to search through the books of Tafasir and Ahadith to get everything.

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MERDAN

1. Surah 4:59 does not in any way or form prove Imamat stop using back door tactics, all it says is obey Allah, messenger and those with authority among you, which really could be anyone so keep your Lego playing with verses to yourself. Yeah we believe in 12 caliphs after prophet not 12 infalliable imams.

2. Why on earth would I need to know all 124,000 names? Nabuwwat is mentioned CLEARLY in Quran so I can refer to Hadith. Whereas Imamate mmmmm....

Stop confusing the word imam and scholar, anyone with religious knowledge can become a scholar but not everyone can be an infalliable so you've just shot yourself in foot by admitting that for 250 years there was no imam on earth yet the earth was NOT destroyed.

3. Lol falsehood was exposed loool. Firstly Abu bakr gave fadak to charity he never kept it for himself or his daughter. Anyway how on earth does the case of fadak help your cause because other Shia sects also believe this yet you call them misguided too. Btw even IF Imamate is part of Islam them what solid evidence do you have that your imams were divinely appointed and not any other Shia sect imams?

ALAJALYALMAM

Firstly I'm sori about my punctuation but I need to ask you 1 question astagfirullah why on earth have you got a picture of Ali r.a is that what he actually look like? I've seen similar pictures on the net astagfirullah.

1. I've explained this verse too many times CBA explaining again

2. Errr... You're missing the point love. If you look at the way you interpretate this Hadith it does NOT prove anything for you. 

Let me explain:

Firstly the way us Sunnis interpretate this verse is that ibrahim a.s offspring did become imams/prophets just like ibrahim a.s but it ended with prophet pbuh.

The way Shia explain is that it proves Imamat, right right ok... 

Let's go with that explanation then so you say this proves YOUR imams were appointed yet other sects of Shia say there's were, hope you get my drift....

3. So prophet told Ali to stay patient right ok. So Abu bakr Umar usman stole caliphate he remained patient ok. They "killed" his wife he remained patient ok.

Now nahj ul balagah

Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. Anä so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, THEN WAR IS THE ONLY COURSE LEFT OPEN TO BE ADOPTED AGAINST HIM AND AS HE HAS REFUSED TO FOLLOW THE COURSE FOLLOWED BY THE MUSLIMS Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism. ( ie he who refuses to swear allegiane to caliph is causing schism) (wink wink).

So Ali is threatning mawiyah with war! Why because he refused to submit to his caliphate which is chosen by men yet when Imamate was being uprooted (usul ad din) he remained silent.

So by threatening mawiyah with war was Ali disobeying prophet???

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