Sayed Sistani About Tatbir

[No body]

My point is, its not about the Truth its all about gaining support from whoever you can.

are these rahbers in " islamic republic of iran" doing taqqiya? look at what kind of unity they are promoting.

these are the end times bro , its very difficult to make sense of whats happening

Ya Ali madad!!!!!

[Kaniz e Zahra]

My point is, its not about the Truth its all about gaining support from whoever you can.

are these rahbers in " islamic republic of iran" doing taqqiya? look at what kind of unity they are promoting.

these are the end times bro , its very difficult to make sense of whats happening

Ya Ali madad!!!!!

Yes these are end of the times,but still he is not someone to decide,or suggest our fiqh to us.Azadari rituals don't bring disrespect if these rituals displease nasibis so it be,they mock at whole Azadari,apart from Tatbir as well,these are just petty excuses.

[MOHIB E AHLAYBAIT]

No Body, I don't wanna get into the leadership debate but just to clarify I am no fan of shia sunni unity, All I know is that no matter what I don't wanna be/can't be united with anyone that has even one iota of love or respect for Omar and his cronies.

[No body]

All I know is that no matter what I don't wanna be/can't be united with anyone that has even one iota of love or respect for Omar and his cronies.

simple isnt it! i assume that you didn't have to become a rocket scientist to figure that out.

[A true Sunni]

Allegations? When you consider a belief of Shias an allegation,then why are you interfering in our fiqhi matter?

99.9% Maraji consider the crime of umar as true incident,

Exageration to say the very least. You forget you are a Shirazist and thus your views are automatically suspect anyway. But since i seen you misquoting and exagerating hadith so often I am not surprised.

U can be a shia and against zanjeer, but u cant be a shia and not against the enemies of ahlulbayt.

You cannot follow the Ahlul Bait and claim brotherhood with those that malign the name of the Ahlul Bait. You dont have to be a rocket scientist to figure that either

I think there is a saying " never argue with an ignorant for he will drag you down to his level and beat you"

i think the very fact that you have argued with him ( after the realization of him being an ignorant) means you have lost

Never a truer word spoken. However the ignorant seek to mislead others to ignorance so its important to combat them everytime you see them. Why is it ignorance to want to know who the liars and hypocrits are in Ayatullah Sistani's office as is being alleged. If you cant trust the emails coming from his office and the answers are diametrically opposed to his vies then someone is lieing and a hypocrit.

So MohibeAhlulBait spit it who are these liars and munafiqs in his office

Edited July 13, 2012 by A true Sunni

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Exageration to say the very least. You forget you are a Shirazist and thus your views are automatically suspect anyway. But since i seen you misquoting and exagerating hadith so often I am not surprised.

So the incident of burning door is exaggeration for you? I am misquoting? tell me single Ayatollah living in Iran or Iraq,who deny this.Do i need to remind you the words of Ay.Khomeini about your three beloveds and two 'women'?

And you don't have any right to insult Ay.Shirazi,you are not equal to his tiniest student even,if he is nothing how is he Marja? How is he making so many mujtahideen? After devoting numerous years for Deen,he needs to learn it from 'true sunni'.You only exploit the names of our ulema for your means otherwise you don't respect them.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Kaniz e Zahra

[Ali Musaaa :)]

This does not even warrant a discussion. It's an evil Bid'a and we all know it. These bodies we live in are not ours... They belong to Allah. Allah will hold you to account and question you about how you used your body. What right do you have to damage the body Allah gave you?

[Kaniz e Zahra]

This does not even warrant a discussion. It's an evil Bid'a and we all know it. These bodies we live in are not ours... They belong to Allah. Allah will hold you to account and question you about how you used your body. What right do you have to damage the body Allah gave you?

No its not an evil bidah,not 'all' share your views brother.Moreover bodies are not damaged either,no body is cutting a limb or something.

Thanks.

[A true Sunni]

So the incident of burning door is exaggeration for you? I am misquoting? tell me single Ayatollah living in Iran or Iraq,who deny this.Do i need to remind you the words of Ay.Khomeini about your three beloveds and two 'women'?

And you don't have any right to insult Ay.Shirazi,you are not equal to his tiniest student even,if he is nothing how is he Marja? How is he making so many mujtahideen? After devoting numerous years for Deen,he needs to learn it from 'true sunni'.You only exploit the names of our ulema for your means otherwise you don't respect them.

Since you made the comment 99.9% you should have no problem finding literature proving your statement. So you prove it. How have I insulted Ayatullah Shirazi. I just said his 'followers' are suspect.

No its not an evil bidah,not 'all' share your views brother.Moreover bodies are not damaged either,no body is cutting a limb or something.

Thanks.

And earlier you were saying the Imams encouraged Ziyarat even if it meant losing a limb. So you change your tune fast

shall we stop swapping insults and just wait for the rulings . I presume noone has heard anything yet

[Ali Musaaa :)]

No its not an evil bidah,not 'all' share your views brother.Moreover bodies are not damaged either,no body is cutting a limb or something.

Thanks.

Wow... I'm still comming to terms with what I just read.

1) cutting/intense beating/harming oneself is not a Bid'a

2) it doesn't harm your body

I'm not sure where to begin, each statement is just as rediculous as the other.

Please prove to me that is it not a Bid'a.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Why do i need to prove it? I said 99.9 that is fact,you call it exaggeration ,bring a proof then,whole Shia world knows the stance of ulema on this issue.I don't have spare time for your baseless rejections.

Loosing a limb was condition back then for Ziaraat now its not,so why to do so?

[Ali Musaaa :)]

Why do i need to prove it?

Loosing a limb was condition back then for Ziaraat now its not,so why to do so?

Once again, prove your claim.

That's like going to the police and saying so and so stole my cat and then you have no evidence and the police ask why and you say I don't need to prove what I have claimed...

[A true Sunni]

Why do i need to prove it? I said 99.9 that is fact,you call it exaggeration ,bring a proof then,whole Shia world knows the stance of ulema on this issue.I don't have spare time for your baseless rejections.

Loosing a limb was condition back then for Ziaraat now its not,so why to do so?

You made the original statement you then backed it up with a statement of 99.9%. Why are you running away from providing proof. out of all the Shia Ayatullahs can you provide statements from 10 . Should be simple for you to provide

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Wow... I'm still comming to terms with what I just read.

1) cutting/intense beating/harming oneself is not a Bid'a

2) it doesn't harm your body

I'm not sure where to begin, each statement is just as rediculous as the other.

Please prove to me that is it not a Bid'a.

It was done by Syeda Zainab(as),when she hit her head against the back of her camel,its a sign of grief.She was declared an untaught teacher by Imam Zain ul Abideen(as).What She did was in presence of two Imams(as).They did n't declare it bidah,how comes you?

Lady Rubab(as) keep sitting in severe sunlight for years after Karbala,was it a self harm? Yes then was it bidah? No.if it was why did n't Imam(as) stopped her from doing so.

Moreover its being done in Iraq,Bahrain,India,Pakistan,and Syria by million of Shia Muslims.There is a difference of fatwas on it as well,so you just can't declare anything bidaah so easily .Anyways i suggest you to read some old threads,this issue has been discussed much in details.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

It was done by Syeda Zainab(as),when she hit her head against the back of her camel,its a sign of grief.She was declared an untaught teacher by Imam Zain ul Abideen(as).What She did was in presence of two Imams(as).They did n't declare it bidah,how comes you?

Lady Rubab(as) keep sitting in severe sunlight for years after Karbala,was it a self harm? Yes then was it bidah? No.if it was why did n't Imam(as) stopped her from doing so.

Moreover its being done in Iraq,Bahrain,India,Pakistan,and Syria by million of Shia Muslims.There is a difference of fatwas on it as well,so you just can't declare anything bidaah so easily .Anyways i suggest you to read some old threads,this issue has been discussed much in details.

Once again when I ask for proof, I recieve more statements. Are there any Hadiths which confirm what you say? Sitting in sunlight is every different from cutting oneself... I think we can both agree with that.

So just because "millions" of Shia Muslims do it in those countries it makes it right? Billions disbelieve in God and Muhammad (pbuh&hf) and millions believe Prophet Jesus (as) is God. Does that make either of those things right?

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Once again, prove your claim.

That's like going to the police and saying so and so stole my cat and then you have no evidence and the police ask why and you say I don't need to prove what I have claimed...

The guy was asking proofs for burning door incident not about tatbir read carefully.

I have answered you but i am tired of discussing it again and again with this person.

[No body]

@True sunni

Dude mashallah you have the intelligence to read into things.

now consider this: when these ulemas respond to a letter or an email, they are responding to the words written, how the sentence is formed what it implies grammatically ( read up on atomic and molecular sentences in natural language and see if i am making sense)

then you have someone translating that, its not as simple as we might think.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Once again when I ask for proof, I recieve more statements. Are there any Hadiths which confirm what you say? Sitting in sunlight is every different from cutting oneself... I think we can both agree with that.

So just because "millions" of Shia Muslims do it in those countries it makes it right? Billions disbelieve in God and Muhammad (pbuh&hf) and millions believe Prophet Jesus (as) is God. Does that make either of those things right?

This burning was even more severe than cutting.What do you think Arab's srorching heat is nothing,just experience it and then sit there in bare sunlight for a day ,you will get to know what self harm is,okay let me post the references.

[Ali Musaaa :)]

The guy was asking proofs for burning door incident not about tatbir read carefully.

I have answered you but i am tired of discussing it again and again with this person.

And I am asking for proofs to the claims you have made. If you are true to your claim then you will, inshAllah have no issue providing evidence for the statements you have made.

And I am asking for proofs to the claims you have made. If you are true to your claim then you will, inshAllah have no issue providing evidence for the statements you have made.

You said it wasnt a Bid'a and now I am asking you to prove that cutting yourself in large groups isn't a Bid'a.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Syeda Zainab(as)did tatbir in presence of 2Imams(as)REFERENCES ARE AS BELOW;

BIHAR UL ANWAAR,VOL45,PG114,JALA UL AYUN VOL.2PG238,both books are by Allama Majlisi.

Zainab ul Kubra,pg112,Asrar ul Shahadat,pg474,Al Muntakhab vol.2,pg no.478,Nusrat ul Mazloom,pg.18.

Here are the references,and inshAllah you will not hesitate in admitting them,but somehow i don't think so people change their established ideas ,no matter thousand of proofs are presented.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

And you true sunni,go on to maraji sites and where ever history is mentioned read their views for your 'three crminals',and two conspirators.If somewhere history is not discussed,email them if anyone of them deny then tell us.

I did n't merely claim,that is what they believe and that is what fact is,the one who refutes and pretends that he knows our ulema more than us,should bring a proof,where they contradicted it?

Though i still know how useless it is to argue with you.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Kaniz e Zahra

[A true Sunni]

And you true sunni,go on to maraji sites and where ever history is mentioned read their views for your 'three crminals',and two conspirators.If somewhere history is not discussed,email them if anyone of them deny then tell us.

I did n't merely claim,that is what they believe and that is what fact is,the one who refutes and pretends that he knows our ulema more than us,should bring a proof,where they contradicted it?

Though i still know how useless it is to argue with you.

No why should I go and research your claims . You made the claim. I now ask you to prove it and you run away. So typical of blood letters

Syeda Zainab(as)did tatbir in presence of 2Imams(as)REFERENCES ARE AS BELOW;

BIHAR UL ANWAAR,VOL45,PG114,JALA UL AYUN VOL.2PG238,both books are by Allama Majlisi.

Zainab ul Kubra,pg112,Asrar ul Shahadat,pg474,Al Muntakhab vol.2,pg no.478,Nusrat ul Mazloom,pg.18.

Here are the references,and inshAllah you will not hesitate in admitting them,but somehow i don't think so people change their established ideas ,no matter thousand of proofs are presented.

Shame on you for comparing that incidence to what you do every year. Shame on you have you no fear of Allah and the hereafter

@True sunni

Dude mashallah you have the intelligence to read into things.

now consider this: when these ulemas respond to a letter or an email, they are responding to the words written, how the sentence is formed what it implies grammatically ( read up on atomic and molecular sentences in natural language and see if i am making sense)

then you have someone translating that, its not as simple as we might think.

Yeah so much so that it changes the entire meaning of the fatwa. You guys really are clutching at straws. If indeed this is your official position on this how come you have never corrected Sister Kaniz-e-Zahira on her creative interpretations of Ayatullah Sistanis fatwas about shirt removal.

Its apparent from your comments that you know the truth its just that you only aknowledge it when you it suits you

Edited July 14, 2012 by A true Sunni

[the Neo]

shall we stop swapping insults and just wait for the rulings . I presume noone has heard anything yet

wait for the ruling if u wish,, but giving a ruling on an act performed in love of Hussain ibne Ali (as), is quite Beyond the domain or scope of any honorable Marje ,

they wouldn’t dare..

Hussain (a s) is not known to us through the honorable Marje, but actually its the other way around

[Against oneself]

Syeda Zainab(as)did tatbir in presence of 2Imams(as)REFERENCES ARE AS BELOW;

reply http://tatbir.org/?p=694 all those refs are quoting one fabricated source lol!

[Ali_Hussain]

reply http://tatbir.org/?p=694 all those refs are quoting one fabricated source lol!

Not to mention what shaykh al-Mufeed narrates in kitab al-irshad

By This and the like he tried to console her and he said: "Sister I swear to you - and I (always) keep my oaths - that you must not tear your clothes, nor scratch your face, nor cry out with grief and loss when I am destroyed."

kitab al-irshad [eng], p.347

There are other narrations that also say women should not mourn aloud

4-60 (The compiler of the book narrated) that his father - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Ali ibn Ibrahim ibn Hashim quoted his father, on the authority of Al-Hassan ibn (Abil) Hussein al-Farsi, on the authority of Suleiman ibn Hafs al-Basry, on the authority of Abdullah ibn al-Hussein ibn Zayd ibn al-Hussein ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib, on the authority of his father Zayd ibn Ali, on the authority of his father Ali ibn al-Hussein (MGB), on the authority of his father (MGB), on the authority of Ja’far ibn Muhammad as-Sadiq (MGB), on the authority of his forefathers (MGB), on the authority of Ali (MGB) that God’s Prophet (MGB) said, “Four characteristics will never vanish in my nation until the Resurrection Day: taking pride in their ancestry; challenging the lineage; relying on astrology; and mourning aloud over the dead. If a woman who mourns aloud dies without having repented, she shall be resurrected with a shirt made of tar and an itchy armor.”

al-Sadooq, al-khisal [eng], p.370

http://www.coiradio....khisal/08_1.htm

But kaniz e zahra being true to form, just finds some random piece of info online and builds her religion around it, trying to justify any old (or in this case fairly new) bid'ah

Edited July 14, 2012 by Ali_Hussain

[A true Sunni]

wait for the ruling if u wish,, but giving a ruling on an act performed in love of Hussain ibne Ali (as), is quite Beyond the domain or scope of any honorable Marje ,

they wouldn’t dare..

Hussain (a s) is not known to us through the honorable Marje, but actually its the other way around

So you preparing the ground for the predicted 'dont do it fatwa'. The issue here is if the Marje endorse it bring solid fatwas demonstrating it. If they dont endorse blood letting at least be honest about it.

I notice you slipped in the comment about 'honourable Marje' implying any that forbid blood letting are dishonourable. Shame on you and your blood letting brothers

But you blood letters creatively interpret non-specific fatwas and ignore or misrepresent specific ones.

Why lie and mislead people if you in the right.

Edited July 14, 2012 by A true Sunni

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Ali Hussain

Syeda Zainab(as) was being consoled by her brother through these words,but still She slapped her face and went unconscious.Don't forget She is the same lady declared untaught scholar by Aimma(as).Which proves her Ismaa.So why did She do these things after Imam(as)'s advice.How can a brother console his restless sister?

Second narration for ordinary dead people not for Masoomeen(as).There are narrations which say Imams(as) asked people to cry aloud,our ulema cry aloud,they know deen more than you.

What about you? Where are you taking your deen from?.THREE BLOGS only,lolz.Always check yourself first before criticizing others.

reply http://tatbir.org/?p=694 all those refs are quoting one fabricated source lol!

We don't take our deen from blogs,one blogger say it fabricated,but marja says authentic,then who we should follow then?

[Kaniz e Zahra]

And sunni start a new thread i can give you maraji's opinions on your beloved three,its not a place.

[A true Sunni]

Ali Hussain

Syeda Zainab(as) was being consoled by her brother through these words,but still She slapped her face and went unconscious.Don't forget She is the same lady declared untaught scholar by Aimma(as).Which proves her Ismaa.So why did She do these things after Imam(as)'s advice.How can a brother console his restless sister?

We don't take our deen from blogs,one blogger say it fabricated,but marja says authentic,then who we should follow then?

Couple of points, its you that has chosen to interpret as 'consoling' and not an order. Under what authority have you to interpret the Imams (as) wishes and thoughts. Yet more creative interpretation I fear.

You havent provided proof from Marje that the burning of the door is genuine yet and now you say Marje say the slapping and head cutting is genuine again without Marje proof.

Since I am not an expert in hadith I will need endorsement from Marje to say it is genuine. Marje more then just Ayatullah Shirazi since you did say 99.9%

And sunni start a new thread i can give you maraji's opinions on your beloved three,its not a place.

I asked you proof of your statements on here 99.9% of Marje you said attested to burning of door. I am only asking for 10 not 10% just 10 Ayatullahs. Thanks in advance for your prompt reply

Edited July 14, 2012 by A true Sunni

[Against oneself]

We don't take our deen from blogs,one blogger say it fabricated,but marja says authentic,then who we should follow then?

The blog is quoting marjas.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

The blog is quoting marjas.

But marjas on blog are not saying that tradition is fabricated,as you referred.

Couple of points, its you that has chosen to interpret as 'consoling' and not an order. Under what authority have you to interpret the Imams (as) wishes and thoughts. Yet more creative interpretation I fear.

You havent provided proof from Marje that the burning of the door is genuine yet and now you say Marje say the slapping and head cutting is genuine again without Marje proof.

Since I am not an expert in hadith I will need endorsement from Marje to say it is genuine. Marje more then just Ayatullah Shirazi since you did say 99.9%

I asked you proof of your statements on here 99.9% of Marje you said attested to burning of door. I am only asking for 10 not 10% just 10 Ayatullahs. Thanks in advance for your prompt reply

I said,send them your query to them,and tell us if anyone of them denies?

This thread is not about that issue.

[A true Sunni]

I said,send them your query to them,and tell us if anyone of them denies?

This thread is not about that issue.

Look you are the one quoting the Marje and saying 99.9% say the traditions that you are quoting are genuine. I only referrred to them as alleged incidents.

Since you are the one making the claim it is up to you to supply the proof. But of course this is a cop out from you. Running away when ever asked for proof. What is it about you blood letters lies and grandiose statements with no proof

[Abu Lulu]

Not to mention what shaykh al-Mufeed narrates in kitab al-irshad

By This and the like he tried to console her and he said: "Sister I swear to you - and I (always) keep my oaths - that you must not tear your clothes, nor scratch your face, nor cry out with grief and loss when I am destroyed."

kitab al-irshad [eng], p.347

imam told this to zaynab in reference to yazid and his army. he told her not to mourn when he will be killed, because yazid's army will be overjoyed by the loud cries of her. more joyous than killing hussein himself. i dont now for sure, but i think there's a riwaya where this is stated.

If a woman who mourns aloud dies without having repented, she shall be resurrected with a shirt made of tar and an itchy armor.”

al-Sadooq, al-khisal [eng], p.370

mourning aloud could mean everything. it most probably have to do with someone who is dissatisfied with someones death to the extent that he/she forgets the blessings of Allah. the "without having repented" indicates this.

[Kaniz e Zahra]

Look you are the one quoting the Marje and saying 99.9% say the traditions that you are quoting are genuine. I only referrred to them as alleged incidents.

Since you are the one making the claim it is up to you to supply the proof. But of course this is a cop out from you. Running away when ever asked for proof. What is it about you blood letters lies and grandiose statements with no proof

Alleged incident? Wow,you will certainly ask one day which marja says Imam Hussain(as) was killed,give me a proof.

I did n't make a claim but talked about truth,we know our ulema better than you,every year in Qum,Syeda(as)'s Shahdat is being recited with complete burning door incident,and maraji participate in all those mournings at Bibi Masooma(as)'s Shrine.Every Howza educated Alim and Alima narrate this incident,who have taken their ijazas of ijtehad from these ulema,still we need you to dictate us.

They don't discuss history on their sites,but little bit is there on some of them,so go and check Ayatollah Nasir Makarem,or Ayatollah Gulpaygani's site,they have small sections on Fadak issue,you will know what they say about your loved ones.

[A true Sunni]

Alleged incident? Wow,you will certainly ask one day which marja says Imam Hussain(as) was killed,give me a proof.

I did n't make a claim but talked about truth,we know our ulema better than you,every year in Qum,Syeda(as)'s Shahdat is being recited with complete burning door incident,and maraji participate in all those mournings at Bibi Masooma(as)'s Shrine.Every Howza educated Alim and Alima narrate this incident,who have taken their ijazas of ijtehad from these ulema,still we need you to dictate us.

They don't discuss history on their sites,but little bit is there on some of them,so go and check Ayatollah Nasir Makarem,or Ayatollah Gulpaygani's site,they have small sections on Fadak issue,you will know what they say about your loved ones.

All I ask is written proof and references from Shia Marje not more grandiose statements. You have made the staatement all i ask is proof from Shia clergies highest authority.

Are you saying they only make verbal commenst about this but never mention it in written form. All I ask is proof !!!

imam told this to zaynab in reference to yazid and his army. he told her not to mourn when he will be killed, because yazid's army will be overjoyed by the loud cries of her. more joyous than killing hussein himself. i dont now for sure, but i think there's a riwaya where this is stated.

So the Imam tells his nearest and dearest to show dignity and composure in the face of the enemies so they are not opened up to ridicule and degradation . So that their tears and lamentation should not become a source of pleasure to the enemies .

So If Ayatullah Sistani or Khameni or countless other Ayatullahs say dont cause the ridicule of the Ahlul Bait and Islam. You say you know better. Better then the Imams themselves.

The enemies of the Ahlul Bait take pleasure in your blood letting activities because each cut causes ridicule of the Ahlul Bait and Islam. So you go against the clear injunctions of the Imams