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Saintly_Jinn23

The Imams And Pain

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Hello again SC, I just wanted to see the different opinions on this simple question: Did the Imams feel physical pain during their martyrdom?

First let me say a quick my quick take on this, while the Passion of our Imams and their sufferings are iconic images in the Shia world, I am currently inclined to say that the Imams did not actually feel any physical pains during their maryrdom. The reason I have leaned toward this view is that I find it rather hard to believe that such spiritual men of such high station would be able to feel physical pains. I am of the belief that through discipline on the spiritual path, the ability to feel physical pains disappears as one's attachment to this world is severed. Those who achieve a particular high state of detachment and enlightenment thus do not feel physical pain anymore because the pain of the separation from God and the longing for God and the pain of seeing his creations disobey Him clouds all other pains, particularly the physical pains which are insignificant and illusory. One would think that if any of the holy men in the past achieved this state of enlightenment and detachment in the love for God, it would be the Prophet and the Imams, peace be upon them all and may their intercession be granted to us on the Day of Judgement.

I might also ask those who comment in this thread to check out my other thread in the inter-faith board concerning Jesus and the same concept:

http://www.shiachat....n-on-the-cross/

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They a.s suffered more pain than us. As

1. Their bodies are like our souls.

2. Ayesha once tried to stop rasool Allah saww from going out so she took a silk cloth and tried to pull it around his waist. To which the prophet saww suffered much pain and it bled.

Being patient in calamities is different from us too as they are more patient than us. However I do not know about physical pains incurred while fighting for Allah azwj but I can surely empathise the way imam zain ul abideen a.s wept for their sufferings in kerbala and how our imam al hadi a.s tore his shirt in lamentation for his father's death.

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The original post is a good example of why philosophical speculation disconnected from and not checking back in with textual evidences is so highly frowned upon. You can spin around to any number of ideas if you have no reality check of what the aimmah actually said. Not to rejct philosophy in total; you need some philosophical background to intelligently figure out how to systematically, consistently interpret texts, but philosophical speculation on its own in theology is dangerous.

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They used to be so deeply engrossed in the love of Allah,that they remain unaffected from pain,even if it was felt,they could care less.

We can take the example of Zulaikha's friends cutting their fingers when they saw Yousaf(as) just visualization of his beauty made them numb from pain,though they were ordinary women,then why can't the feeling of presence of the most Exalted one,The Almighty could make His most loved ones so indulged in His love to not take any heed of physical suffering? That does n't mean they could n't feel it,but they did n't care about it in Allah's love.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

My favorite Dua by Imam Sajjad (as) is about overcoming physical sickness. Notice how the Imam (as) speaks of illness as an opportunity to get closer to Allah. I am sure that while they had the capacity to feel physical pain (as all humans do) it was likely accompanied by heightened spirituality and used as an opportunity for meditation and enlightenment.

http://www.duas.org/sajjadiya/s15.htm

O God, to Thee belongs praise

for the good health of my body

which lets me move about,

and to Thee belongs praise,

for the ailments

which Thou causest to arise in my flesh!

For I know not, my God,

which of the two states deserves more my thanking Thee

and which of the two times is more worthy for my praise of Thee:

the time of health,

within which Thou makest me delight

in the agreeable things of Thy provision,

through which Thou givest me the joy to seek

the means to Thy good pleasure and bounty,

and by which Thou strengthenest me

for the acts of obedience

which Thou hast given me success to accomplish;

or the time of illness

through which Thou puttest me to the test

and bestowest upon me favors:

lightening of the offenses

that weigh down my back,

purification of the evil deeds

into which I have plunged,

incitement to reach

for repentance,

reminder of the erasure of misdeeds

through ancient favor;

and, through all that, what the two writers write for me:

blameless acts,

which no heart had thought,

no tongue had uttered,

and no limb had undertaken,

rather, as Thy bestowal of bounty upon me

and the beneficence of Thy benefaction toward me

O God,

bless Muhammad and his Household,

make me love

what Thou hast approved for me,

make easy for me

what Thou hast sent down upon me,

purify me of the defilement

of what I have sent ahead,

erase the evil

of what I have done beforehand,

let me find the sweetness

of well-being,

let me taste the coolness

of safety,

and appoint for me

a way out from my illness to Thy pardon,

transformation of my infirmity into Thy forbearance,

escape from my distress to Thy refreshment,

and safety from this hardship in Thy relief!

Thou art gratuitously bountiful in beneficence,

ever gracious in kindness,

the Generous, the Giver,

Possessor of majesty and munificence!

Edited by Zahratul_Islam

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

This is getting ridiculous. Even Christians believe Jesus عليه السلام, who they think is God (a`udhubillah), felt pain.

The OP takes it too far when he/she suggests that the Imams couldn't feel pain- but the discussion could be used as an opportunity to identify ways in which infallibles dealt with the many physical burdens they endured in life.

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(salam)

Maryam was a siddiqa and she felt the pains of childbirth like any woman

.And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" (19:23)

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

(salam)

Maryam was a siddiqa and she felt the pains of childbirth like any woman

.And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" (19:23)

I was actually thinking of that verse when I read the opening post. I love that description of the pains of childbirth.

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They better have been able to experience the same emotions we do, otherwise why would anyone give them any credit for their feats? In any case, they sure were in a tremendously more advantageous position than us given their knowledge and imaan. That alone would make it easier for someone to make the necessary sacrifices in this world.

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This is not our beliefs:

59- وأنهم بشر محدثون، وعباد مصنوعون، لا يخلقون، ولا يرزقون، ويأكلون ويشربون، وتكون لهم الأزواج، وتنالهم الآلام والأعلال، ويستضامون، ويخافون فيتقون، وأن منهم من قتل، ومنهم من قبض

59 – And that they are originated human beings, created servants. They do not create and they do not provide sustenance. They eat and they drink, and they have wives. Pains and sickness takes them, and they are harmed. They fear so they do taqiyya. And from them are those who are killed and from them are those who died.

http://www.tashayyu....hia-al-imamiyya

I wonder if Sheikh as-Sadooq says that the A'immah (as) can get diseases (which they obviously can't).

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What's the difference between getting sick and getting a disease? And why is it obvious that they can't get a disease?

Short term vs. Long term, and believing that they could get diseases is taqseer.

بَقِيَّةً مِنْ آدَمَ ع وَ خِيَرَةً مِنْ ذُرِّيَّةِ نُوحٍ وَ مُصْطَفًى مِنْ آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَ سُلَالَةً مِنْ إِسْمَاعِيلَ وَ صَفْوَةً مِنْ عِتْرَةِ مُحَمَّدٍ ص لَمْ يَزَلْ مَرْعِيّاً بِعَيْنِ اللَّهِ يَحْفَظُهُ وَ يَكْلَؤُهُ بِسِتْرِهِ مَطْرُوداً عَنْهُ حَبَائِلُ إِبْلِيسَ وَ جُنُودِهِ مَدْفُوعاً عَنْهُ وُقُوبُ الْغَوَاسِقِ وَ نُفُوثُ كُلِّ فَاسِقٍ مَصْرُوفاً عَنْهُ قَوَارِفُ السُّوءِ مُبْرَأً مِنَ الْعَاهَاتِ مَحْجُوباً عَنِ الْآفَاتِ مَعْصُوماً مِنَ الزَّلَّاتِ مَصُوناً عَنِ الْفَوَاحِشِ كُلِّهَا

Imaam Al-Saadiq (عليه السلام) said:“...He is the remainder from Aadam (عليه السلام), the best (ones) from the progeny of Nooh (عليه السلام), the chosen one from the family (ahl) of Ibraaheem (عليه السلام), and the offspring from Ismaa`eel, and the elite (ones) from the lineage (`itrah) of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), He has always been looked after by the eyes of Allaah who protects him and guards him with his curtain, he is expelled from the ropes of Iblees, and he is a solder he pushes away from approaching twilight. And all immorality (fisq) and evil is discharged from him, he is free deformities, he is veiled from diseases, he is ma`soom from (any) minor sin, and he is preserved from all (types) of filth (fawaaHish)...

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, Kitaab Al-Hujjah, Ch. 15, hadeeth # 2, pg. 203 - 205

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 2, pg. 400

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/10/saheeh-hadeeth-on-infallibility-of.html

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I think there's some misunderstanding as to what I am referring to by "pain" (which may very well be part of the point I am trying to make)

The pains I am referring to are the physical pains that one endures when damage is done to the fleshly body. The kind of pain one feels when he or she cuts himself with a knife. This is the kind of pain I talking about. It would seem to me that some traditions support the idea that the Imams' spiritual state, that is their state of spiritual enlightenment and living, made them so that they didn't feel physical pains such as those I've just mentioned. This does not include however the pains of spiritual struggle, that is, the emotional pains of the soul which don't concern the flesh, or the mortal body to be exact.

Now some you state that they were indifferent to the physical pains, not so much that they didn't feel them, but I submit that, ideally, as one more becomes more "indifferent" to the physical pains the body endures, these physical pains are no longer physical pains because perfect indifference to pain is the same as not feeling it, because at that point there is no longer anything to distinguish the physical pains from the physical pleasures the body endures. The two, in essence, become one in the same.

(salam)

Maryam was a siddiqa and she felt the pains of childbirth like any woman

.And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" (19:23)

I don't think this disproves what I said in the slightest, Maryam (as) is Maryam. I'm talking about the 12 Imams, whose station is higher. Maryam is beneath her own son in the heavenly hierarchy. And also I never said that spiritual people do not ever feel pains of the body, I said that spiritual people of a certain level become spiritually indifferent, and thus impervious, to the pains. Maryam certainly did feel at least the first initial pains of labor, but, bear in mind, this does not mean that she didn't attain to a higher station later on in her mortal life where she no longer felt such insignificant things, it only means that at least at that point in her life, she wasn't yet of such station.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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Short term vs. Long term, and believing that they could get diseases is taqseer.

Did you just make that up?

بَقِيَّةً مِنْ آدَمَ ع وَ خِيَرَةً مِنْ ذُرِّيَّةِ نُوحٍ وَ مُصْطَفًى مِنْ آلِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَ سُلَالَةً مِنْ إِسْمَاعِيلَ وَ صَفْوَةً مِنْ عِتْرَةِ مُحَمَّدٍ ص لَمْ يَزَلْ مَرْعِيّاً بِعَيْنِ اللَّهِ يَحْفَظُهُ وَ يَكْلَؤُهُ بِسِتْرِهِ مَطْرُوداً عَنْهُ حَبَائِلُ إِبْلِيسَ وَ جُنُودِهِ مَدْفُوعاً عَنْهُ وُقُوبُ الْغَوَاسِقِ وَ نُفُوثُ كُلِّ فَاسِقٍ مَصْرُوفاً عَنْهُ قَوَارِفُ السُّوءِ مُبْرَأً مِنَ الْعَاهَاتِ مَحْجُوباً عَنِ الْآفَاتِ مَعْصُوماً مِنَ الزَّلَّاتِ مَصُوناً عَنِ الْفَوَاحِشِ كُلِّهَا

Imaam Al-Saadiq (عليه السلام) said:“...He is the remainder from Aadam (عليه السلام), the best (ones) from the progeny of Nooh (عليه السلام), the chosen one from the family (ahl) of Ibraaheem (عليه السلام), and the offspring from Ismaa`eel, and the elite (ones) from the lineage (`itrah) of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), He has always been looked after by the eyes of Allaah who protects him and guards him with his curtain, he is expelled from the ropes of Iblees, and he is a solder he pushes away from approaching twilight. And all immorality (fisq) and evil is discharged from him, he is free deformities, he is veiled from diseases, he is ma`soom from (any) minor sin, and he is preserved from all (types) of filth (fawaaHish)...

Source:

1. Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 1, Kitaab Al-Hujjah, Ch. 15, hadeeth # 2, pg. 203 - 205

Grading:

1. Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (Authentic)

à Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 2, pg. 400

http://www.revivinga...ibility-of.html

An extract from a rather longer narration coming from someone who tended to narrate rather improbable to impossible things (al-Hasan b. Mahbub). Regardless, Majlisi explains that what is meant by `ahat and afat here are maladies that result the distaste of the people and deformation of ones creation, such as blindness, lameness, leprosy, etc, with a possible other meaning of mental/psychological diseases. Anyway the word here الْآفَاتِ is different than what I quoted الأعلال

I think there's some misunderstanding as to what I am referring to by "pain" (which may very well be part of the point I am trying to make)

The pains I am referring to are the physical pains that one endures when damage is done to the fleshly body. The kind of pain one feels when he or she cuts himself with a knife. This is the kind of pain I talking about. It would seem to me that some traditions support the idea that the Imams' spiritual state, that is their state of spiritual enlightenment and living, made them so that they didn't feel physical pains such as those I've just mentioned. This does not include however the pains of spiritual struggle, that is, the emotional pains of the soul which don't concern the flesh, or the mortal body to be exact.

Now some you state that they were indifferent to the physical pains, not so much that they didn't feel them, but I submit that, ideally, as one more becomes more "indifferent" to the physical pains the body endures, these physical pains are no longer physical pains because perfect indifference to pain is the same as not feeling it, because at that point there is no longer anything to distinguish the physical pains from the physical pleasures the body endures. The two, in essence, become one in the same.

What's the point of all this speculation though? Having a certain threshold of sensitivity to pain in itself isn't a bad thing. Pain in fact serves as the body's warning system of something bad going on or about to happen.

Perhaps you've just watched too many episodes of Kung Fu..

I wonder if Sheikh as-Sadooq says that the A'immah (as) can get diseases (which they obviously can't).

You're perhaps forgetting that Amir al-Mu'mineen (a) had conjunctivitis in the eye which was healed by the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله.

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You're perhaps forgetting that Amir al-Mu'mineen (a) had conjunctivitis in the eye which was healed by the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله.

Oh yes. I remembered. This was in the Tabuk war. After the Prophet healed Imam Ali's eyes, he handed him the Islamic banner.

Edited by Gypsy

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Oh yes. I remembered. This was in the Tabuk war. After the Prophet healed Imam Ali's eyes, he handed him the Islamic banner.

I think you mean Khaybar. Imam `Ali (a) didn't go on the Tabuk expedition, but was left in charge of Madina (which was the context, or one of the contexts, for the hadith of manzila).

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^ i tried to edit, delete and report the post above in order to correct the typo's but i get that stupid bug (that no one has bothered to fix) that happens every time i try and post ont he same topic as 'Mutah_King'. So i'll post again:

I thought I was the only one getting this bug. Seriously, can someone fix this? There is something with his avatar or signature causing problems.

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59 – And that they are originated human beings, created servants. They do not create and they do not provide sustenance. They eat and they drink, and they have wives. Pains and sickness takes them, and they are harmed. They fear so they do taqiyya. And from them are those who are killed and from them are those who died.

What's your interpretation of 'fear' in this tradition? The same kind of fear us humans possess? (ex. fear of death, fear of getting hurt, etc.)

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Prophets and Imams are human being just like us yes they are infallible human beings and superior to us but their not terminators were they can't feel physical pain. We make our imams sound like their different species of humans sometimes. Theirs way too much exaggeration in the shia world when it comes to our Imams. My opinion personally for the sake of discussion I think it would be hard to find out if they felt pain just because I don't think if Imam Ali(as) was hit with a sword or something he would go around saying I'm in pain I'm in pain I think he would feel the pain but he would suppress it . Just like the example given above with the arrow I think Imam Ali(as) was in pain or felt pain but he just suppressed it because of his bravery, strong faith, certainty, and level of wisdom. I don't know if this could apply here or if its a good example but ill give it a shot. Imam Ali(as) once said " if you are certain of getting water then you wont feel thirsty" well maybe our Imam also felt that if you are certain you are in Allahs hands you won't feel pain. But that doesn't mean he can't feel pain or get thirsty.

What's your interpretation of 'fear' in this tradition? The same kind of fear us humans possess? (ex. fear of death, fear of getting hurt, etc.)

I don't know how authentic the hadith is but if I were to take a guess it would probably mean fear of the destruction of the message of the Prophet(s). Imams don't fear for their lives they fear for the souls of muslims ending up in hell.

Edited by Martyrdom

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Us humans? The Imams were humans too...

I meant like us non-divine humans (ex. fear of death, fear of getting hurt, fear of fighting, fear of heights, etc. - scared of typical things that we get scared of).

I don't know how authentic the hadith is but if I were to take a guess it would probably mean fear of the destruction of the message of the Prophet(s). Imams don't fear for their lives they fear for the souls of muslims ending up in hell.

They don't fear things which are irrelevant to religion?

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Did you just make that up?

It's basic terminology, and illness and disease have different time spans.

English isn't my first language, it's yours.

An extract from a rather longer narration coming from someone who tended to narrate rather improbable to impossible things (al-Hasan b. Mahbub). Regardless, Majlisi explains that what is meant by `ahat and afat here are maladies that result the distaste of the people and deformation of ones creation, such as blindness, lameness, leprosy, etc, with a possible other meaning of mental/psychological diseases. Anyway the word here الْآفَاتِ is different than what I quoted الأعلال

That's your belief on Hasan b. Mahbub. Most (if not all) scholars accept his narrations and don't question his motives for allegedly fabricating them. Wallahu 'Alim, I don't see why Hasan b. Mahbub should be pointed out on this issue without any sufficent reason (like if he believed this or not) to do so.

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Instead of arguing about whether they feel pain or not, look at this Hadith in which the Imam gives us golden pieces of advice while he was suffering (and in pain too), and this was probably the Maradh in which he died.

عنه، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن محمد بن خالد، عن فضالة بن أيوب، عن عمر بن أبان وسيف بن عميرة، عن فضيل بن يسار قال: دخلت على أبي عبدالله عليه السلام في مرضة مرضها لم يبق منه إلا رأسه فقال: يا فضيل إنني كثيرا ما أقول: ما على رجل عرفه الله هذا الامر لو كان في رأس جبل حتى يأتيه الموت، يا فضيل بن يسار إن الناس أخذوا يمينا وشمالا وإنا وشيعتنا هدينا الصراط المستقيم، يا فضيل بن يسار إن المؤمن لو أصبح له ما بين المشرق والمغرب كان ذلك خيرا له ولو أصبح مقطعا أعضاؤه كان ذلك خيرا له، يا فضيل بن يسار إن الله لا يفعل بالمؤمن إلاما هو خير له يا فضيل ابن يسار لو عدلت الدنيا عند الله عزوجل جناح بعوضة ما سقى عدوه منها شربة ماء يا فضيل بن يسار إنه من كان همه هما واحدا كفاه الله همه ومن كان همه في كل وادلم يبال الله بأي واد هلك

from him (i.e. Muhammad bin Yahya) from Ahmad bin Muhammad from Muhammad bin Khalid from Fadhalah bin Ayub from Umar bin Aban AND Sayf bin Umayrah from Fudhayl bin Yasar who said:

I entered upon (i.e. visited) Aba Abdillah عليه السلام while he was in an illness, (i.e. the illness in which) nothing was left from him (i.e. not suffering) except his head (i.e. intelligence),

so He said (i.e. to me):

O Fudhayl, I often say this - there is nothing (difficult) upon a man to whom Allah has made aware this affair (Wilayat) even if he were to be at the summit of a mountain (i.e. alone) until he was to meet his death,

O Fudhayl bin Yasar, verily the people have taken from the right and the left, but I and my Shias have been guided to the Sirat al-Mustaqim,

O Fudhayl bin Yasar, verily a Mu'min if he were to wake up and find out that it was for him (i.e. he posesses) what is in between the east and the west - it would be good for him,

and if he were to wake up and find out that his limbs have been cut off it would still be good for him,

O Fudhayl bin Yasar, Allah does not do to a Mu'min except what is good for him,

O Fudhayl bin Yasar, if this world was to take the form of a wing of a gnat infront of Allah (i.e be so lowered), (yet) He would not let his enemy drink a drop of water from it,

O Fudhayl bin Yasar, verily the one who desires only for a single thing, Allah will suffice him of his desire,

and the one whose desire is in every valley (i.e. desires everything),

Allah will not care in which valley he will be destroyed.

Sahih Wa In Kana Fihi Ahmad wa Abuhu Fahum Thiqatan Thabt Indiy.

Edited by Islamic Salvation

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Salam.

There are quite a few narrations which indicate that the Imam's (as) did feel the pain.

Just to note that here is a specific narration on Imam Husain (as) and the event of Karbala which says that the companions did not feel the pain of Iron.

سهل بن زياد، عن ابن محبوب، عن ابن فضل، عن سعد الجلاب عن جابر، عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: قال الحسين عليه السلام لاصحابه قبل أن يقتل: إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله قال لي: يا بني إنك ستساق إلى العراق، وهي أرض قد التقى بها النبيون وأوصياء النبيين، وهي أرض تدعى عمورا، وإنك تستشهد بها ويستشهد معك جماعة من أصحابك لا يجدون ألم مس الحديد

There is also the narration regarding Rasheed Al-Hijri who when was asked if he felt any pain when his hand and legs were cut said that, "I do not feel any pain... "

I suppose these narrations actually talk about not feeling of pain due to getting more engrossed in love of Allah (swt) and in the hear-after.

Regarding the creation of the Imam's (as) there are clear narrations that the Imam's (as) were created as Noor and their creation is different from the creation of the rest of the Humans' (as). There is a complete chapter in Al-Kafi on this - Kitab Al-Hujjah Chapter. 94

Here is one such narration.

أحمد بن محمد، عن محمد بن الحسن، عن محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد، عن محمد بن شعيب، عن عمران بن إسحاق الزعفراني، عن محمد بن مروان، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: سمعته يقول: إن الله خلقنا من نور عظمته، ثم صور خلقنا من طينة مخزونة مكنونة من تحت العرش، فأسكن ذلك النور فيه، فكنا نحن خلقا وبشرا نورانيين لم يجعل لاحد في مثل الذي خلقنا منه نصيبا، وخلق أرواح شيعتنا من طينتنا و أبدانهم من طينة مخزونة مكنونة أسفل من ذلك الطينة ولم يجعل الله لاحد في مثل الذي خلقهم منه نصيبا إلا للانبياء، ولذلك صرنا نحن وهم: الناس، وصار سائر الناس همج، للنار وإلى النار

Ahmad ibn Muhammad has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa ibn ‘Ubayd from Muhammad ibn Shu‘ayb from ‘Imran ibn Ishaq al-Za‘farani from Muhammad ibn Marwan who has said the following.

"I heard abu ‘Abd Allah (as) say, ‘Allah has created us from the light of His greatness. Thereafter He shaped our form from a preserved and hidden clay under the Throne. Then He made that light to reside in that clay. We were then a Nooraani (light) creature of the human being species. He has not placed anything as a share from that which we were created in anyone else. He has created the spirits of our Shi‘a from our clay and their bodies from a preserved and hidden clay from below that clay. Allah has not placed anything as a share of that which they are created in anyone except the prophets. Therefore, our followers and we became the people. The rest of the people became riffraff for the fire and to the fire."

[source: Al-Kaafi, Vol.1 Pg. 389]

Read more here: http://www.marefatea...-before-adam-as

Edited by muhibb-ali

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