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Ali J

I Went From Islam To An Atheist Last Night

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Hello brothers.

Yesterday at night I was thinking about the part verse in surat al fatiha, "ghayr el maghdoobi 'alayhim", and was thinking how can Allah curse someone, and say there is a seal on their heart when they should have freewill. I understand I might not know exactly what this verse is talking about, who it's refering to, but this isn't the reason that I couldn't believe that Allah existed. I remembered in dua kumayl how it said something like, "And how can it's flames burn me when I call your name", and the dua emphasises Allah's mercy. We start every surah(except 9) with Bismillah Al Rahman, Al Raheem. He is Al Raheem. He says so many times he will forgive anything except shirk, that his mercy is unbounded. So tell me brothers, did I choose to be born? Did I make the choice to be born? No, I did not brothers, Allah made it for me. And what has Allah done by doing this? He has made me come into this material world, full of temptaions, and he has given me this brain, this intelligence. And if I say for some reason am not convinced by his message, I would deserve the worst burning ever? The most merciful, the most merciful is going to burn his poor servant that HE brought into this life, that HE gave him the intelligence he has, and then burn him? What did I ever do brothers, for Allah to burn me? What great wrong did I do for him to put me in this world and burn me??? By Allah, if he exists, I spent 3 hours crying after I finished praying, asking for an answer, and saying "What did I ever do?", "How can you burn me for me ignorance, for my idiocy when you are the most merciful?". I am afraid brothers I am not going to get any answer. But if you have you, you would have done great good. :'( Thank you brothers.

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your situation is as if you were asking a teacher ''Why will I fail?'' before doing the exams..without wanting to study .

also, not everything is pre-destined . You have some free will inside that Allah did not chose for you,but he let you the free will to chose by yourself .

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You are not the first person going through this turmoil and you won't be last; I am sorry I could not be proved more helpful than telling you that you never were alone.

I personally consider a sensitive heart both- curse and a blessing. You can transform it into either of these, for you and for others around you.

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Guest EndlessEndeavor

Hello,

Yesterday at night I was thinking about the part verse in surat al fatiha, "ghayr el maghdoobi 'alayhim", and was thinking how can Allah curse someone, and say there is a seal on their heart when they should have freewill. I understand I might not know exactly what this verse is talking about, who it's refering to, but this isn't the reason that I couldn't believe that Allah existed.

The person CHOOSES to reject Allah which then entails that he is cursed. The idea is not that Allah makes him not believe and then punishes him, that is quite illogical.

I remembered in dua kumayl how it said something like, "And how can it's flames burn me when I call your name", and the dua emphasises Allah's mercy. We start every surah(except 9) with Bismillah Al Rahman, Al Raheem. He is Al Raheem. He says so many times he will forgive anything except shirk, that his mercy is unbounded. So tell me brothers, did I choose to be born? Did I make the choice to be born? No, I did not brothers, Allah made it for me. And what has Allah done by doing this? He has made me come into this material world, full of temptaions, and he has given me this brain, this intelligence.

How beautiful those words. You are right, his mercy precedes his wrath and exceeds anything imaginable. You did not choose to be born, extraneous factors dictated that, but now you are in control of your life. Think about your life now because it exists and stop lamenting the fact you did not have a choice. You have been blessed with life and as you rightfully said you have been created with intelligence. The onus on you is to now use it!

And if I say for some reason am not convinced by his message, I would deserve the worst burning ever? The most merciful, the most merciful is going to burn his poor servant that HE brought into this life, that HE gave him the intelligence he has, and then burn him? What did I ever do brothers, for Allah to burn me? What great wrong did I do for him to put me in this world and burn me??? By Allah, if he exists, I spent 3 hours crying after I finished praying, asking for an answer, and saying "What did I ever do?", "How can you burn me for me ignorance, for my idiocy when you are the most merciful?". I am afraid brothers I am not going to get any answer. But if you have you, you would have done great good. :'( Thank you brothers.

Brother, the grave error of shirk and disbelief needs to be explained so it can be fully understood. Only then, can you perhaps understand why it results in such punishment.

I will quote several passages from different works to help clarify this point.

‘The best way to reach God, Whose being is more apparent and obvious than any other thing and Whose presence is nearer to everything than any other thing, is, verily, to dust the trail of knowledge off the blinders of ego and vanity.God’s invisibility is due to his due to the severity of his manifestation, and his remoteness is because of his extreme proximity. If an entity’s manifestation were to be more evident than knowledge, notion and knower, and it were to be so near that even nearer than a thing is to itself, such a keen manifestation causes necessarily creates invisibility, and such a proximity causes distance.’

To not believe or to associate is to go against your own fitra! Your innate disposition that Allah bestowed upon you to guide YOU on this earth. Monotheism and Tawhid are in you! Your job is to known what you already really know, but through heedlessness have forgotten. This is why Allah has given you intelligence and this is the journey of this life.

فِطْرَتَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا ۚ لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَٰكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ

the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah’s creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know (30:30)

You ask why is it such a bad thing? Why does it deserve punishment?

“To associate others with God is to go against the most fundamental instincts of the human species. It is, so to speak, to betray the human nature and even to leave the domain of human existence. This explains why it is such a grave sin: It is the overturning of what makes us human. Claiming ignorance of Tawhid is tantamount to claiming not to be human.”

Remember that Allah's mercy encompasses all and if you are sincere in your path, Allah will provide the guidance.

When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. (2:186)

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He says so many times he will forgive anything except shirk, that his mercy is unbounded.

If this is true, then his mercy is bounded, its either that or you are happy to accept some kind of contradiction.

So tell me brothers, did I choose to be born? Did I make the choice to be born? No, I did not brothers, Allah made it for me.

Arguably, he had no choice either.

And what has Allah done by doing this? He has made me come into this material world, full of temptaions, and he has given me this brain, this intelligence.

I am in no way saying this is the best of all worlds but i can certainly imagine worse situations you can be born into. By the way you write and the virtue of having access to a computer and the internet, you seem to be doing a lot better than most of the world. In-fact, most of us now, even in under-developed countries are arguably doing better than 2000 years ago.

That said, i don't understand the logic around testing us for the sake of testing us, to reveal the flaws he created and designed us with in the first place knowing full well some of us would go to the hell he created, because of the way he created us.

And if I say for some reason am not convinced by his message, I would deserve the worst burning ever?

Well..... that makes two of us. You, me and 6 billion other people currently alive (not to mention those who have died).

Arguably, he has revealed just enough for you to be fairly convinced but in the end the choice is yours. You did something wrong by making the wrong choice. That is your downfall.

I personally don't find this reasoning very satisfying though. It seems to be built around the kind of thinking that non-believers aren't simply mistaken idiots but they're much worse than that, they're arrogant, they're actively against God, they just don't like him and don't want to believe in him.

If you held a gun to my entire circle of friends, family and loved ones and asked me to form a true belief in God, i simply couldn't. Even though i stand to lose some of the most important things in my life, even though the consequences are dire, i simply couldn't. You can't will a belief, i don't wake up every day and decide to still be an agnostic atheist, it is what i simply am. I can't will myself into being a Muslim, i simply just don't and literally can't believe it.

I think the person who knows less about this is actually more guilty than someone who has studied it like me. I have spent so long reading philosophy of religion and thinking about these things that it seems to me there are absolute multitudes of landslide evidence against the jewish/christian/islamic God, in light of what i know and currently think about religion, i literally have no choice but to have the beliefs i have now. Based on everything i know and i think i automatically have to go towards the position i am in. It's sort of like sitting on your chair, you know you are, you have very good basis and belief for it, so, you suddenly can't start to believe you're sitting on an elephant. You cannot draw that conclusion at all. You realise a lot about what you are actually sitting on so you're automatically going to form the view you're sitting on a chair, you literally (barring insanity) can't go any other way, even if you choose to.

Therefore, considering we don't really have much choice, i simply can't decide "I want to be a Muslim now" and fully believe everything. It seems grossly unfair that people like me and indeed almost anyone would get to go to hell simply because they don't believe in Islam. I also like to think that the supreme all knowing, all powerful, all wise being isn't so little and petty to send people to hell simply because they don't believe in him. It seems almost childish behaviour for such a majestic being. Of course, you can argue people deserve to go to hell for murder and things like that but it seems unjustifiable that good people go to hell simply because they don't acknowledge Islam.

I've seen arguments along the lines of the fact that if religion is so important, it is so so so utterly important to God that we believe, why does he not do a better job of providing evidence and convincing us? It seems like he is almost dooming us to hell by not doing this.

The most merciful, the most merciful is going to burn his poor servant that HE brought into this life, that HE gave him the intelligence he has, and then burn him?

I don't believe in free will in the way the general public thinks about it, so, this might be outside my area.

Again, i would think about why he created us the way he did.

the most merciful...

I know many people who would dispute that.

My purpose isn't to "convert" you away from your religion or anything like that. Personally, if it makes you happy, I’d rather you stick to it, I'd take happy over wrong any day of the week in this case. Believing might make me happier and enrich my life but as i said above, i just simply can't. Everyone here is but a drop of the ocean of the religions of the world, so, it does not matter much to me personally what you do nor to i really care personally in a lot of ways what particular religion you are. What i think is best for both sides though are good arguments, examination and rigorous thought. Just on a little note, you're not exactly an atheist if you're praying to him.... in fact... that one line probably could of been my whole post.

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Hello brothers.

Yesterday at night I was thinking about the part verse in surat al fatiha, "ghayr el maghdoobi 'alayhim", and was thinking how can Allah curse someone, and say there is a seal on their heart when they should have freewill. I understand I might not know exactly what this verse is talking about, who it's refering to, but this isn't the reason that I couldn't believe that Allah existed. I remembered in dua kumayl how it said something like, "And how can it's flames burn me when I call your name", and the dua emphasises Allah's mercy. We start every surah(except 9) with Bismillah Al Rahman, Al Raheem. He is Al Raheem. He says so many times he will forgive anything except shirk, that his mercy is unbounded. So tell me brothers, did I choose to be born? Did I make the choice to be born? No, I did not brothers, Allah made it for me. And what has Allah done by doing this? He has made me come into this material world, full of temptaions, and he has given me this brain, this intelligence. And if I say for some reason am not convinced by his message, I would deserve the worst burning ever? The most merciful, the most merciful is going to burn his poor servant that HE brought into this life, that HE gave him the intelligence he has, and then burn him? What did I ever do brothers, for Allah to burn me? What great wrong did I do for him to put me in this world and burn me??? By Allah, if he exists, I spent 3 hours crying after I finished praying, asking for an answer, and saying "What did I ever do?", "How can you burn me for me ignorance, for my idiocy when you are the most merciful?". I am afraid brothers I am not going to get any answer. But if you have you, you would have done great good. :'( Thank you brothe++rs.

sorry to hear of your pains brother. i would ave messaged you if you had moe posts to send privatre messages

god has no partner, nor mother or father,,, he does not starve? nor does he feel hunger, or desire, he is nor female or male, he has no scent or smell, how can god love or become angry? he does not pain? nor does he die , he is everywhere without being part of anything? he creates and recreates from his own will and destroys from his own too?

if we as humans starve and fast then how will god judge us on the day of judgment when he himself cannot do any of what we do????? is he not then limited in the sense meaning he cannot have a partner or starve? if we say he feels hunger or he can feel hunger if he wants we then break the rules of tauheed.......

so does god really exist??

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dear brother

the point is that if "he has given me this brain, this intelligence. And if I say for some reason am not convinced by his message"

it shows you've no used your brain or else Islam is based on thinking and wisdom, not like Christians say Believe, then think!

so it's so easy :

the reason of creation is that human's soul improves and becomes like his creator.

If you followed your wisdom, you've followed what Allah wanted you to do and you can reach that or at least approach that purpose.

and if you followed the Nafs, you've got far from your purpose ,

so Allah says:

We showed you the ]true] way, either thank him or ignore.

now you're free to choose one of them.

ws

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salam

at times we have the answer but we arent able to understand it.

Allah(swt) has made us best among the creations and gave intelligence but then too we commit sins. and for those sins he will burn us. now thats something really inconceivable.

so we have to understand what sins are. sins are the wrongs which we commit against ourselves and others at times and the sins which we commit against others are so severe sometimes that we dont understand them, but it really changes or degrades someones life.

for example- if a muslim is in love with a non muslima and later he becomes religious and quits the relation thinking that he'll be forgiven, then its not necessary that he'll be forgiven, instead he might be requited harshly for that. now that might not be idiocy for a learned one.

Allah(swt) blessed few with lots of bounties while others are bearing poverty; does that mean Allah(swt) is unjust?

no! he tests the blessed ones for benevolence and the poor for patience. these are the issues that i just used for example.

what i mean to say is that there are very many things that are operated parallel by AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

and for the sins for which we are really unaware of, then definitely Allah(swt) will forgive us.

lastly for intelligence, if someone truly becomes intelligent then he'll not be trapped in desires(lusts of the world). Allah(swt) made happiness for us not uncontrollable desires.

its we who made those bounties using excessively and called them as temptations.

physical relation is a bounty not a worthless temptation if u try to understand it.

coz if those are really temptations then they wd never end.

i'll pray that u get the answer soon.

w/s

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Perhaps you should look up the translation of 'ghairul maghzubeh' as it means nothing of the sort.

As for your question, if you carry on reading dua kumail, you would find the answer within...

If he brought you into this world, he has also shown you the way. And he has also promised you more if you submit, but that much is up to you.

No ignorant will go to hell but the wilful one and for that they have noone but themselves to blame.

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Yesterday at night I was thinking about the part verse in surat al fatiha, "ghayr el maghdoobi 'alayhim", and was thinking how can Allah curse someone, and say there is a seal on their heart when they should have freewill.

Hmmm ... the verse could very well mean that these people can see the reasoning and understanding that what they're hearing IS true, but their greed, pride, lust, or some other personal interests are preventing them to do so. Think of it this way, a drunkard knows that alcohol is harmful, but he won't admit that because it feeds it egoistic desire. No matter how much doctors, his relatives, friends etc try to convince him, he just keeps makin' excuses to stick to that destructive habit. He knows the truth, but denies it.

I remembered in dua kumayl how it said something like, "And how can it's flames burn me when I call your name", and the dua emphasises Allah's mercy.

Again, I'll just try to show some better alternative, just my personal hypothesis [i'm not well-versed in Quran]. Think of it this way, when a child is born, it's a hurtful process. It's pretty darn painful for women. But a child [and all the parents here will back me on this] is like a BLESSING to the parents. We should not haste to judgment. The final day is not here, we don't know how things will be at that day. Hell, even in this world, there are instances PAIN can be a blessing. Pain reminds us that something is wrong and urge us to find a right solution for the problem at hand. Ask any Martial Artist, they go through painful, rough conditioning. Yet they won't trade their blessing with regular people. Weight lifter crush their muscles every day, it's painful, exhausting. Yet it's the only experience I know [well, I used to do Weight Lifting] that makes you feel ALIVE, and it amazing. I don't Weight Lift anymore, and I'd trade this dull life for the painful [yet wonderful] life as I had back when I used to do Weight Lifting.

So tell me brothers, did I choose to be born? Did I make the choice to be born? No, I did not brothers, Allah made it for me. And what has Allah done by doing this? He has made me come into this material world, full of temptaions, and he has given me this brain, this intelligence. And if I say for some reason am not convinced by his message, I would deserve the worst burning ever?

Not quite.

"We will show them Our signs in the universe and in their own selves, until it becomes manifest to them that This (Quran) is the truth”.” - [Holy Quran: 41:53]

So no, I'm fairly sure that won't happen. However, if the truth becomes clear to you, and yet you deny it because your temptations have gotten the better out of you, you're askin' for it.

"What did I ever do?", "How can you burn me for me ignorance, for my idiocy when you are the most merciful?".

Well, I'm fairly sure Islam also endorsed seeking of knowledge. Ignorance is far more destructive than you think. The Nazis had all sort of pseudohistorical, pseudoscientific and outright non-sense ideas incorporated in their sick ideologies. Do you realize what kind of a harm it would do if people don't take enough time to become well-verse in science and knowledge due to their laziness and indiligence, and due to that, can't distinguish truth from falsehood?

Just my two cents, but then again, I'm an agnostic. I'm fairly sure Muslim people here can give a better response than me. They know Quran better than me.

My point is, don't rush to skepticism so quickly. There are plenty of Shenanigans walking around, if you can give up on your Lord so easily, how do you expect to live your life loyal to your beliefs?

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You ask a lot of questions and questions are good. Here are some more:

You make the statement that you didnt choose to be born and i'd ask you if you know for sure that this is true (?) Some people are of the opinion that in our pre-existence we do choose to come to earth, and some people go further and say we know what our trials will be also. I dont know if this view can be supported by anything in Quran or ruled out by Quran, ive not read anything that makes me think either, but its something worth pondering on.

Is it true that God has given you these temptations? we have a biology, we have an environment and the 2 meet and create a situation. In that situation we have a choice what to focus on, what perspective to take and what action to take. Temptations are only temptations because of the way we recieve them. If we continually take our minds to the temptation and perceive it in a certain way, our bodies will respond. If i look at the chocolate cookie and i think about how delicious it is, how it will taste and feel in my mouth and what the sugar rush will feel like, i want the cookie and the more i replay these thoughts, the more i will want it.

So to what extent am i creating the temptation in myself?

Telling myself not to think of the cookie will make me think of the cookie, so this isnt helpful, but deliberately turning my attention elsewhere or consciously changing the way i perceive the cookie (like reminding myself of why refined sugar is bad for the body and how everytime i eat a cookie to make myself feel better i am reinforcing an unhealthy connection) can help. Do i need the cookie in this moment that im thinking about it? must it be a temptation to me?

Who says 'not being convinced by His message' (what ever that means to you) makes you burn in hell? do you not think people have different levels of conviction? do you not think that these levels fluctuate? do you think that there is some uniform perception that everyone has, or do people, in reality, process information through different perspectives? does this process end? should it?

You are calling yourself an 'athiest', yet you are turning to God. Do you think athiests consciously pray to God for help?

Im confused as to whether its Gods 'judgement' you have a problem with or your current judgement of yourself. Do you know?

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In my opinion the person who will be sent in Hellfire is the one who deliberatey denies God and his religion and not somebody who is ignorant or has come to a wrong conclusion. Now, you may ask, why would a person disbelieve in God when he knows that God exists. This is due to extreme arrogance and ego. Such a person does not look for evidence or proof but finds excuses to maintain his sense of superiority and narcicissm. Consider these verses of the Quran:-

"And they denied them, though their souls acknowledged them, for spite and arrogance. Then see the nature of the consequence for the wrong-doers!" (Surah Naml, Verse 14)

"I will turn away from My communications those who are unjustly proud in the earth; and if they see every sign they will not believe in It; and if they see the way of rectitude they do not take It for a way, and if they see the way of error. they take it for a way...."(7:146)

So these people do not believe the signs of God because of thier arrogance.

These are just a couple of example and there are many more such verses. A person who has such a narcicisstic sense of ego and superiority that he is ready to deny his Merciful Creator even though he has clearly understood his signs, will never be good to others around him as well. Abu Jahl and Firaun are examples of such people.

Furthermore, the sin of Iblis was due to arrogance as well because of which he would be in Hell. Those who deliberately disbelieve, disbelieve for reasons similiar to that of Iblis.

A person who does not believe in God beacause knowledge has not come to him, I dont believe he will go to Hell.

And Allah knows best!

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'ihdinus-siratul-mustaqeem, siratul-ladheena an-amta alayhim, ghayril maghdhoobi alayhim'-meaning 'guide us to the straight path, the path of those whom thou has favoured, not the path of those who earn thine anger nor of those who go astray'. How does this contradict du3a kumayl, or rather how does du3as kumayl contradict this verse? This verse speaks of the anbiyya, mursaleen, and the a'imma when it speaks of 'those whom thou hast favoured' and that we as muslims wish for Allah(swt) to guide us and help us to follow these rightly guided and appointed leaders of Islam on Earth. The surah then clarifies that on the opposite end of the spectrum we ask Allah(swt) to guide us away from 'those who EARN thy anger nor those who GO astray' even in English, the key words I have emphasised, show the fact that these bad people use their free will to CHOOSE to leave the right path, or the avoid it all together. The surah doesn't directly say that the astray people will always remain astray, and that they will therefore be put in hell.

As for Du3a Kumayl, it does not contradict the Qu'ranic teachings about Allah's(swt) mercy and love. The section you mentioned about Imam Ali(as) saying to Allah(swt) 'And how can it's flames burn me when I call your name', this is refering clearly to a believer who feels that his good deeds are inadequet before Allah(swt) and that his bad deeds are many, even the great Imam Ali(as) never felt like he was doing enough in the cause of Allah(swt) and so in this du3a we see Imam Ali(as) requesting Allah(swt) to save the believer from hell fire due to even the small act of sajdah, or calling on AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, and the frailty in which Allah(swt) created us. This du3a is a personal conversation between Imam Ali(as) or Kumayl(as) or any other Muslim who wishes to recite it and AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. Islamic philosophy often advocates that a person lowers themselves in humility, in order to understand the hight, grandeur and splendour of Allah(swt) (as much as a human being possibly could concieve the greatness of Allah-swt)

Allah's(swt) mercy is balanced with his justice, and yes the only thing that will never be forgiven if not repented for, is shirk. This does not mean that other deeds wont be punished in the afterlife, look at rape or peodophilia, should Allah(swt) not punish that sin if the person doesn't commit shirk? Where is the mercy or justice for the victim in that? We are meant to have a balance between hope and fear when it comes to faith, hope in the mercy and generosity of Allah's(swt) mercy, and fear of the gravity of our sins ans the lack of good deeds and inadiquecies, and the shame of not living up to the wonderous beauty of out creatorÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

Who knows who will burn in hell, how do you know whether Allah(swt) will burn you in hell for not being fully guided and certain of Islam? How do you know he wont? As we know from Imam Ali(as) the lowest form of faith is following Islam out of fear of hell, this is the worship of a slave, the next highest is the worship for the gain of heaven, this the worship of a buisiness man, and the third and highest level of faith is the worship of Allah(swt) purely for his sake, and this is the worship of a free man. I hope inshallah that you can overcome your doubts and regain your faith in Islam, this time stronger and more informed inshallah, I also wish this for all of humanity as well inshallah amin.

Salams and du3as inshallah

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Salam Alaykom Ali J,

If the thought of Hell stirred up emotions in you, then in your heart, you know such a place DOES exist, otherwise you would've not tears for three hours. Anyway, Allah SWT is very Compassionate (Ar-Rahman) and Merciful (Ar-Rahim). However; some of His other names are Al Hakim (Judge) and Al 'Adl( Just). In fact being Just and Judging between right and wrong is one of the main factors that MAKE Allah SWT Merciful.

Here Are some Quotes of the Quran That Show how Allah is Merciful and Just:

Al Fatiha is all about Allah's Mercy:

In the name of Allah , the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

[All] praise is [due] to Allah , Lord of the worlds -

The Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful, (Quran 1-3)

Where Quran states Allah is Just:

Indeed, Allah does not do injustice, [even] as much as an atom's weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward. 4:40

Allah does not tolerate injustice and he will punish people accordingly to their sin as it is only fair and merciful. Say for example one night you woke up due to hearing strange noises in your house. You find it was a robber, stealing all your stuff and is about to harrass your wife in unpleasant manners, would you say " Oh Strange Man! You welcome to take anything from my house! You're my new best friend yalla! Take anything you want dear fellow, and also here take my wife for your own pleasure!" Would you be merciful towards him? I doubt it! You would probably kill him for stealing your property and for abusing your wife.

See this is why Allah has justice. He hates to see his worshippers in pain, due to other crimminals. When someone wrongly kills a baby for instance, you expect and desire for that person to be punished! You don't say that's okay dear fellow kill as many children as you want, IT's A-okay....

Hey I'll have to continue this later as I gots to go now...But answering your question is making me feel CLOSER to Allah SWT.

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Thank you brothers for your replies. You know I went to a Sunni forum when I had gotten no response from this forum, and I was called "troll", and arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm happy to see that this forum has some respect and tries use logic. I see what a few of the people here are trying to say, that it's only people who actually believe in Allah, but won't admit it that will go to hell. But really my point is, is it not Allah's fault that they won't admit it? What if this same person was born somewhere in Africa, where he had no money, and almost nothing, and didn't develop this pride and one day he heard of the message and he believed. Was it not due to the environment that Allah put him in that he believed? And like I said, who would disbelieve in Allah when he truly knows he exists and chose to go to the hell fire? Of course no one, and if they do, it's because this world overcame them.

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In order for God to ask my permission to be created he has to create me to ask me then after he creates me theirs no point of asking me he already created me . The question is baseless and doesn't make sense.

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Hello brothers.

Yesterday at night I was thinking about the part verse in surat al fatiha, "ghayr el maghdoobi 'alayhim", and was thinking how can Allah curse someone, and say there is a seal on their heart when they should have freewill. I understand I might not know exactly what this verse is talking about, who it's refering to, but this isn't the reason that I couldn't believe that Allah existed. I remembered in dua kumayl how it said something like, "And how can it's flames burn me when I call your name", and the dua emphasises Allah's mercy. We start every surah(except 9) with Bismillah Al Rahman, Al Raheem. He is Al Raheem. He says so many times he will forgive anything except shirk, that his mercy is unbounded. So tell me brothers, did I choose to be born? Did I make the choice to be born? No, I did not brothers, Allah made it for me. And what has Allah done by doing this? He has made me come into this material world, full of temptaions, and he has given me this brain, this intelligence. And if I say for some reason am not convinced by his message, I would deserve the worst burning ever? The most merciful, the most merciful is going to burn his poor servant that HE brought into this life, that HE gave him the intelligence he has, and then burn him? What did I ever do brothers, for Allah to burn me? What great wrong did I do for him to put me in this world and burn me??? By Allah, if he exists, I spent 3 hours crying after I finished praying, asking for an answer, and saying "What did I ever do?", "How can you burn me for me ignorance, for my idiocy when you are the most merciful?". I am afraid brothers I am not going to get any answer. But if you have you, you would have done great good. :'( Thank you brothers.

(salam)

You're going through a state of perplexity, which a very fruitful state.

If you resist temptations and continue with your questions and seeking answers you will receive them.

Regarding God's mercy, I must mention that He is the most merciful for creating the best world for us to live in.

In this world, everything is designed/created/evolved in accordance with perfect laws and calculations.

These laws are in harmony with God's ethical laws/commandments.

The two complement one another.

If you follow the latter you will understand the former, and if you contemplate regarding the former you will be pulled towards the latter.

Let me use a chemistry example.

In chemistry as you know you can mix elements and compounds and have a chemical equation.

In this equation, you can either add to the right side or to the left side.

However, there is a limit to how much you can add and there is a limit to how far and how long this chemical reaction can continue.

At some point, this reaction becomes irreversible. It means that the products cannot be turned into the reagents anymore.

The chemical reaction is finished.

The latter state cannot turn into the former state, regardless of what is done to it.

Now, human actions in their surrounding world is similar to this chemical reaction.

Your actions in your environment lead to a different you, and you are the product of that reaction.

You can either follow God's commandments, with proper understanding, and turn yourself into a desirable product or you could give into temptations and turn yourself into a different product that is not desirable.

In either case, at some point, you (the product) become permanent. Your reaction becomes irreversible.

These people are those who have been cursed and those who will spend for eternity in hellfire.

Their substance becomes incompatible with paradise.

Paradise, as an entity, rejects these individuals due to their substance, their impure substance.

Regardless of how hard you try, you cannot mix oil and water together.

This is not an indication of God's lack of mercy.

Rather this is part of God's justice.

God has created a perfect world, which is governed by perfect merciful laws.

It is not God's fault when a chemistry students spoils a chemical reaction.

Neither is it God's fault when a person spoils his nature/substance and makes it incompatible with paradise.

This issue can be tied to the issue of free will as well.

The source of free will is your brain and body, your biology.

Anything that a human has, anything that a human does, anything that a human thinks has a biological source.

We are biological entities. Thus, our free will has a direct link to our biology.

Now, when a person spoils his nature/substance by going against God's commands and laws, he spoils his biology.

He spoils his thoughts, his intentions and his perception.

He spoils how he sees the world and how he thinks about the world.

These all have biological routes.

A spoiled biology leads to a spoiled free will.

A ruined biology leads to a ruined free will.

This ruined free will, even though it is present, cannot guide and bring individuals back to the right path.

It is irreversibly ruined. It irreversibly causes mistaken perception, mistaken thoughts and mistaken desires.

This is an issue of cause and effect.

God has created this world perfectly due to His mercy, with perfect governing laws.

It would not be merciful if God had created us like animals without free will.

It would not be merciful if God had created us like robots or machines without free will.

(salam)

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Hello brothers.

Yesterday at night I was thinking about the part verse in surat al fatiha, "ghayr el maghdoobi 'alayhim", and was thinking how can Allah curse someone, and say there is a seal on their heart when they should have freewill. I understand I might not know exactly what this verse is talking about, who it's refering to, but this isn't the reason that I couldn't believe that Allah existed. I remembered in dua kumayl how it said something like, "And how can it's flames burn me when I call your name", and the dua emphasises Allah's mercy. We start every surah(except 9) with Bismillah Al Rahman, Al Raheem. He is Al Raheem. He says so many times he will forgive anything except shirk, that his mercy is unbounded. So tell me brothers, did I choose to be born? Did I make the choice to be born? No, I did not brothers, Allah made it for me. And what has Allah done by doing this? He has made me come into this material world, full of temptaions, and he has given me this brain, this intelligence. And if I say for some reason am not convinced by his message, I would deserve the worst burning ever? The most merciful, the most merciful is going to burn his poor servant that HE brought into this life, that HE gave him the intelligence he has, and then burn him? What did I ever do brothers, for Allah to burn me? What great wrong did I do for him to put me in this world and burn me??? By Allah, if he exists, I spent 3 hours crying after I finished praying, asking for an answer, and saying "What did I ever do?", "How can you burn me for me ignorance, for my idiocy when you are the most merciful?". I am afraid brothers I am not going to get any answer. But if you have you, you would have done great good. :'( Thank you brothers.

Salam brother,

I had seen your post last night, and I forwarded it to a Sheikh that I personally know. I received his reply this morning, and here it is:

Thank you for your post.

Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, is of course All-Merciful as you mentioned. You have nicely quoted Dua Kumayl, and you will remember that in this dua, Imam Ali (as) expresses his disbelief that Allah (SWT) would punish anyone except those who are extremely stubborn.

"So I declare with certainty that were it not for what You hast

decreed concerning the chastisement of Your deniers. And what You hast

foreordained concerning the everlasting home of those who stubbornly

resist, You wouldst make the Fire, all of it, coolness and safety, And

no one would have a place of rest or abode within it.

But You—holy are Your Names—hast sworn that You wilt fill it with the

unbelievers, Both Jinn and men together, And that You wilt place those who

stubbornly resist therein forever."

As you can see from the words of Imam Ali (as), the punishment of the Hell-fire is not for the ignorant or those who really tried to be good people but were too weak. Rather, those whose home is the fire are the stubborn rejecters of the Truth, who do evil in this world without ever repenting.

This is part of the Justice of God- it would not be fair for a person who murders, steals and destroys other peoples' lives to go unpunished

and live comfortably in the Hereafter. It is only those same stubborn people who deserve God's Wrath and whose heart God seals.

As for the question of Creation, it is the Greatest Mercy of God that He has brought you, I, and any other people to life. The test we face is

an opportunity to elevate ourselves to the Everlasting Bliss of being close to Him and living in His Paradise. We should not complain about being brought to life, instead we should be eternally grateful for having experienced the greatest perfection (life itself) and for having the opportunity for eternal bliss, if only we work hard to gain this.

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I think that an important question to guide our "free will" is what reason would we have to follow Allah's comandments, obey his rules, believe in Him and seek his pleasure in the first place? Why should we do this rather than give in to our own temptations of this world that you mentioned. I feel that it may be possible that i relate can to you because for me and some of my closest friends, the big temptation was drugs. We really enjoyed the way these "chemical reactions" shaped us into new "coumpounds". We became stoners who were very high and our mental state brought us pleasure and we seriously believed that this equaled happiness. Our chemical reaction was a heavy use of marijuana, but it eventually evolved to acid and mushrooms at times. I would call myself an athiest at this time too because my decision was that i would do whatever I wanted. This was back in high school. Later, i would make efforts to stop using the drugs because my education and professional career became more important to me than this. I am now 22 and more recently, I discovered and converted to Islam and came to the realization that it is better to live for the pleasure of Allah than for self gratification. The happiness that I thought I had was based on my reaction to drugs, but the happiness I have now, I would say it is more "real". It comes from a sense of accomplishment when I get a job or earn some money the honest way. When I look at my life and dont feel bad or regretful about what I have been doing because i know that I am obeying the Quran and Allah. When I learn something new by reading the Quran or talking to the brothers at the Mosque. This is what brings me happiness now. I know that using weed, acid, and shrooms is prohibited in Islam and hopefully no one reading this thinks negatively of me. That was in the past and I have been clean from all drugs for a year now. Hopefully Allah forgives me, as he IS the most merciful, In Sha Allah. Anyway, I hope this helps :).

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Again, thank you for your replies. Here is an example to explain exactly what I'm talking about. Take a certain person. He is born into a poor, unhealthy, uneducated, and undernourished family. He has no food. He is forced to steal, even though he knows it is against Allah. His environment has caused his actions. Now take that very same person, but he was born into a rich family, with all the food he ever needs, all the money and education he can get, and he doesn't steal, but rather is a good Muslim, a very good one, who gives to charity, etc. What is my point here? My point is that very same person had different actions due to his environment. Another example would be where am I more likely to commit rape? In an islamic country where every woman wears the hijab, or a country where in which the women are bearly wearing any clothes? I do not choose my environment, and therefore it means it is harder for me than someone else due to my environment, meaning we do not get an equal chance. And if you were to say to me that, "Yes, but Allah will take that into account.", then really no one will go to hell, because the reason they commit these sins is due to their environment or how their brain develop in which took no part or could choose. Please tell me how this is wrong. Once again, thank you.

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Again, thank you for your replies. Here is an example to explain exactly what I'm talking about. Take a certain person. He is born into a poor, unhealthy, uneducated, and undernourished family. He has no food. He is forced to steal, even though he knows it is against Allah. His environment has caused his actions. Now take that very same person, but he was born into a rich family, with all the food he ever needs, all the money and education he can get, and he doesn't steal, but rather is a good Muslim, a very good one, who gives to charity, etc. What is my point here? My point is that very same person had different actions due to his environment. Another example would be where am I more likely to commit rape? In an islamic country where every woman wears the hijab, or a country where in which the women are bearly wearing any clothes? I do not choose my environment, and therefore it means it is harder for me than someone else due to my environment, meaning we do not get an equal chance. And if you were to say to me that, "Yes, but Allah will take that into account.", then really no one will go to hell, because the reason they commit these sins is due to their environment or how their brain develop in which took no part or could choose. Please tell me how this is wrong. Once again, thank you.

What you are saying is wrong, because that poor person who ended up going against the commands of Allah (swt) and stealing could have also become a thief if he was born into a rich family. Sure you may say it is harder for the rich person to become a thief, but then the person in the rich family could become someone who spends extravagantly much easier than the poor person who doesn't have any money to spend extravagantly.

My point is, our environments may affect us in a way where we are more likely of committing a certain sin, but the environment of other people affects them in a way where it may be more likely for them to commit a different sin.

We all have our test and to blame the difficulty on Allah (swt) for putting us in a situation is not fair, as we can over come this trial and refrain from sinning but due to our own low desires we end up going against the rules of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. It's not Allah's (swt) fault we fall into sin, it is our own.

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You forget that a poor person who is forced to steal for survival is not a criminal, and sharia does not punish him. So the example is mute as ones situation/environment/intention will be known and taken into account.

You are underestimating Allahs power to judge.

You will only be punished if you knowingly do so. Environment can only be blamed so much, you have to take responsibility at one point. No sane healthy adult gets a free pass. And that is what you seem want!

Why though are you worried about everyone else yet not so much about yourself?

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not like Christians say Believe, then think!

Wow, you guys must know some really wonkey christians.

Ali J,

In your examples,a child is born into a poor, unhealthy, uneducated, and undernourished family. He has no food. With good direction, he knows stealing is wrong and his only recourse is to trust God will get him thru.

If the same person were born into a rich family he has everything he needs, he has no reason to trust in God for his basics. He can become arrogant, he learns "legal" ways to steal and does so because he can.

Your examples assume your heavenly value is based on earthly gains.

A million examples could apply if only you set the stage. Many people are brought up wrong and turn out right because they have a God given conscience they choose to obey, and of course, vice versa.

God created Adam and Eve, from there procreation began. From the very beginning there was Cain and Abel. How did they fair out?

God doesn't answer "prove you exist and I'll believe" God runs thru your veins, (to put it in simple terms). God does not look at life, death, and suffering as we do, although He very well understands it while none of us during our time on this earth will ever really understand Him. When you put God to the test you give iblis the opportunity to steer you wrong. Yes, iblis is also very real.

You will best see God thru study and prayer, asking for protection from evil and asking God's will in your life. Nobody can tell you it's easy. My understanding of predestination is it was for those God chose, the Prophets. I'm sure Moses would have liked a day off. You, like the rest of us have the choice.

My prayer is you will recognize God's involvment in your life when you need it most, (and less popular) that He will bring you to that point.

A bird will fall frozen dead, from the bough of a tree without ever having felt sorry for itself.

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Take a certain person. He is born into a poor, unhealthy, uneducated, and undernourished family. He has no food. He is forced to steal, even though he knows it is against Allah. His environment has caused his actions.

Only if he allowed it to.

You have to realize, there is ALWAYS some amount of WILL involve in our acts. Environment is not alone to blame, but will our too. If we give in to inner and outer forces, if we collaborate with environmental factor despite of knowing our actions are overall destructive and evil, are actions will be cause by the environment. And if we keep a control of our will, no matter how hard the environment, nothing can cause anyone to take any action. Karbala is a prime example of this.

Another example would be where am I more likely to commit rape? In an islamic country where every woman wears the hijab, or a country where in which the women are bearly wearing any clothes? I do not choose my environment, and therefore it means it is harder for me than someone else due to my environment, meaning we do not get an equal chance. And if you were to say to me that, "Yes, but Allah will take that into account.", then really no one will go to hell, because the reason they commit these sins is due to their environment or how their brain develop in which took no part or could choose. Please tell me how this is wrong. Once again, thank you.

Bro, it seems like you believe we are at the mercy of our cognitive processes and/or our inner forces. I can assure you that's not the case. I know plenty of homosexuals who took complete control of themselves to live their lives loyal to their beliefs. It is hard, but not impossible.

Besides, you're assuming that God will throw people to hell left and right, just like that without any consideration of their circumstances and conditions. We don't know that. In fact, I'm fairly sure there is a verse in Quran which states that even if he fill the whole universe with our sins, but then sincerely repent, God will forgive us. [that doesn't mean we should fill the whole bloody universe with sins on purpose and then just repent, so hang on]

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I highly doubt any body in this world is forced to steal they just choose too. but if the state of his country is an turmoil economic wise it would not be sin. Allah does not test everybody with the same test let me show you an example. When a teacher gives a test to her students she tests them on how many they get correct not on improvement because it will be too difficult and to much time consuming except for Allah thats not a problem he tests only on improvements. The poor kid not stealling is equal in deeds to the rich kid giving charity you see what i mean its on improvement...

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Again, thank you for your replies. Here is an example to explain exactly what I'm talking about. Take a certain person. He is born into a poor, unhealthy, uneducated, and undernourished family. He has no food. He is forced to steal, even though he knows it is against Allah. His environment has caused his actions. Now take that very same person, but he was born into a rich family, with all the food he ever needs, all the money and education he can get, and he doesn't steal, but rather is a good Muslim, a very good one, who gives to charity, etc. What is my point here? My point is that very same person had different actions due to his environment. Another example would be where am I more likely to commit rape? In an islamic country where every woman wears the hijab, or a country where in which the women are bearly wearing any clothes? I do not choose my environment, and therefore it means it is harder for me than someone else due to my environment, meaning we do not get an equal chance. And if you were to say to me that, "Yes, but Allah will take that into account.", then really no one will go to hell, because the reason they commit these sins is due to their environment or how their brain develop in which took no part or could choose. Please tell me how this is wrong. Once again, thank you.

brother, truth that most people will give you is from verses and refrerences, they know nothing else but this, for them this is the world of religion and this is their world they rely on, theres many levels of knowledge and these knowledges have their heights and stages. you're simply looking for understanding tauheed. its very complex yet very simple, its logical yet illogical as nothing can define the supreme being, you speak about poor and the ill and the rich and the poor, on a basic level everyone is tested on their own levels on earth, also before the souls were blown into the bodies they too were tested, if no man sinned on this earth there would be no ill person in the world as maula /(saw) says

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Bro, where is the proof for this?

Eatables stolen during the times of famine do not make the thief liable for having his hands cut. It is narrated from Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:

“In the time of famine and draught the hands of a thief are not cut off for stealing edible items like bread and meat etc.”

http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=7466

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Most of you restated what I said in a way. I told you in my post that if you say, but Allah considers this poor mans situation, or this rich mans situation, then no one will be punished, because it is only due to their environment and the way your brain develops. Here is another example. Say Allah created everyone with the same brain, the exact same brain, and they were put into their very own, but exact same environment. They will all either come out good, or bad. But what if they don't all come out good or bad, what if some are good, and some are bad? What does this mean? It means that Allah did not create them with equal intelligence or freewill. Now I know that we all have different brains, and that we all experience a different environment. This is the actual case. And this my friends is the only reason some people are good and some people are bad. And who with freewill would not choose to go to Jannah? Who is their right mind would choose to not go to Jannah? if I had the choice, I would definitely choose Jannah. Why is it that some people don't choose Jannah? If they have the exact same amount of will as me, they will choose Jannah. The fact that people choose different means that there is without a doubt some injustice done by Allah, either in giving people a certain amount of intelligence, or a certain amount of freewill, or the wrong environment, or whatever it maybe. Do I not make a point brothers?

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No

Most of you restated what I said in a way. I told you in my post that if you say, but Allah considers this poor mans situation, or this rich mans situation, then no one will be punished, because it is only due to their environment and the way your brain develops. Here is another example. Say Allah created everyone with the same brain, the exact same brain, and they were put into their very own, but exact same environment. They will all either come out good, or bad. But what if they don't all come out good or bad, what if some are good, and some are bad? What does this mean? It means that Allah did not create them with equal intelligence or freewill. Now I know that we all have different brains, and that we all experience a different environment. This is the actual case. And this my friends is the only reason some people are good and some people are bad. And who with freewill would not choose to go to Jannah? Who is their right mind would choose to not go to Jannah? if I had the choice, I would definitely choose Jannah. Why is it that some people don't choose Jannah? If they have the exact same amount of will as me, they will choose Jannah. The fact that people choose different means that there is without a doubt some injustice done by Allah, either in giving people a certain amount of intelligence, or a certain amount of freewill, or the wrong environment, or whatever it maybe. Do I not make a point brothers?

No, you do not. Your acts may tip the balance toward heaven or towards hell, but it is what is in your heart that will ultimately decide. Allah is Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

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Do I not make a point brothers?

Not really....no.

You seem to want to be free of the responsibility to not sin, simply by blaming it on God? You want the easy ride of not having to think, study or retain self control?

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Hello brothers.

The most merciful, the most merciful is going to burn his poor servant?

Hi brother,

no

Why is it that some people don't choose Jannah? If they have the exact same amount of will as me, they will choose Jannah. The fact that people choose different means that there is without a doubt some injustice done by Allah, either in giving people a certain amount of intelligence, or a certain amount of freewill, or the wrong environment, or whatever it maybe. Do I not make a point brothers?

no matter how intelligent any creature, nobody will ever be intelligent enough to understand exactly the relationship of free will and predestination. To base our faith on our intelligence rather than surrendering it to infinite intelligence is overrating ones importance and perception. We can not judge infinite intelligence with our limited intelligence; we can only surrender to it and trust that it's just. Even if we fail to understand. Just remind ourselves that we are not the Creator, that we can't even create a fly, and that we will never understand the full picture.

A good metaphor is to compare our brain/heart size with the size of the universe .. which is still infinitely smaller than Allah. Our brain has a circumferance of less than a meter .. our humbly sized galaxy some say is about 30 trillion kilometers in circumference. Then there are estimates that there are between 70 billion and 500 billion galaxies in this universe. And now there is the hypothesis that we are actually living in a multiverse. Maybe our universe is just a little atom in another world .. part of another galaxy .. part of another universe .. part of another multiverse. Our "brain" is as tiny as our "intelligence".

in short: let's surrender to intelligence of al Alim, the Knowing .. and hope He forgives us

also, let us be grateful if we were chosen to believe in His existence, and the possibility of heaven and hell .. without making our understanding of why and how a pre-requisite

hope my answer somehow helped you

peace to you

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Most of you restated what I said in a way. I told you in my post that if you say, but Allah considers this poor mans situation, or this rich mans situation, then no one will be punished, because it is only due to their environment and the way your brain develops.

We have the ability to abstain from sin, it's our own fault if we don't abstain from it. The situation may very well be taken into consideration, but the situation being a certain way may not justify committing the sin [i don't know if it would justify it or not]

Here is another example. Say Allah created everyone with the same brain, the exact same brain, and they were put into their very own, but exact same environment. They will all either come out good, or bad. But what if they don't all come out good or bad, what if some are good, and some are bad? What does this mean? It means that Allah did not create them with equal intelligence or freewill.

No, it means someone decided to act on the haraam things they desire and someone else decided to abstain from haraam things they desired and so the former got punished but the latter got rewarded, they could have both chosen to abstain from the haraam thing but one chose not to so it's his own fault.

Now I know that we all have different brains, and that we all experience a different environment. This is the actual case. And this my friends is the only reason some people are good and some people are bad. And who with freewill would not choose to go to Jannah? Who is their right mind would choose to not go to Jannah? if I had the choice, I would definitely choose Jannah. Why is it that some people don't choose Jannah? If they have the exact same amount of will as me, they will choose Jannah

No, it's not because of the situation we are in that some people are good and some are bad. Sure the situation may make one sin a harder challenge for one person, and another sin may be a harder challenge for someone else, but this doesn't mean that the person cannot abstain from the sin. For example, if you are a rich person, sure it may be difficult to not spend extravagantly since you have the option to do so, but that doesn't mean that you are forced to spend extravagantly, it's your own fault if you spend extravagantly. [i don't know what equates to spending extravagantly but I know that spending extravagantly is haraam]

The fact that people choose different means that there is without a doubt some injustice done by Allah, either in giving people a certain amount of intelligence, or a certain amount of freewill, or the wrong environment, or whatever it maybe. Do I not make a point brothers?

I understand your point but you are wrong, the person choosing different means doesn't mean that the injustice is done by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, it means they have committed injustice against themselves because they could abstain from the sin but they chose not to.

[i don't know whether or not in any cases it would be allowed to sin e.g. if you were poor I don't know if that could justify stealing or not (sure you may not be punished by sharia but that doesnt necessarily mean that it is justified)] - just thought I should make that note so you know that it might be possible that not abstaining from a sin is permissible in some cases - but I have personally never come across such a case.

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