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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Ali J

I Went From Islam To An Atheist Last Night

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Salam

In my opinion and own experience with myself, the most important thing is not to loose beleive in your heart! Human mind is limited, you cannot think beyond what you are intitled to. There are certain things that are beyond your your mind understanding that if you keep thinking about will go crazy or loose faith or beleive in Islam and it is what [Edited Out]an wants. You shall not let your heart die, follow your heart in everything and you will know the right path. What satisfies your heart is what you shall follow. Again that's my opinion.

SARA

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No

No, you do not. Your acts may tip the balance toward heaven or towards hell, but it is what is in your heart that will ultimately decide. Allah is Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Honestly, what are you saying here? How is that in anyway an argument? You just denied it by saying no, and similarly the one after you, who also claims I don't want to take responsibility. That is not the case, and it actually doesn't matter if it is or not. Whether I want to take responsibility or not doesn't change anything about what I said. What was your argument against the point that if we all had equal freewill and intelligence, and the same environment, we'd choose heaven or hell? Why do some people not choose heaven? Why won't you answer this question? They have obviously a different way of thinking, something my friends, must be different. Allah obviously if he is real has created us differently. This automatically makes it not fair, that very fact makes it not fair. And once again, if you say yes but he'll judge us accordingly then no one is going to go to hell. Please try understand my brothers. Either Allah isn't real or he's doing some injustice.

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Hello brothers.

Yesterday at night I was thinking about the part verse in surat al fatiha, "ghayr el maghdoobi 'alayhim", and was thinking how can Allah curse someone, and say there is a seal on their heart when they should have freewill. I understand I might not know exactly what this verse is talking about, who it's refering to, but this isn't the reason that I couldn't believe that Allah existed. I remembered in dua kumayl how it said something like, "And how can it's flames burn me when I call your name", and the dua emphasises Allah's mercy. We start every surah(except 9) with Bismillah Al Rahman, Al Raheem. He is Al Raheem. He says so many times he will forgive anything except shirk, that his mercy is unbounded. So tell me brothers, did I choose to be born? Did I make the choice to be born? No, I did not brothers, Allah made it for me. And what has Allah done by doing this? He has made me come into this material world, full of temptaions, and he has given me this brain, this intelligence. And if I say for some reason am not convinced by his message, I would deserve the worst burning ever? The most merciful, the most merciful is going to burn his poor servant that HE brought into this life, that HE gave him the intelligence he has, and then burn him? What did I ever do brothers, for Allah to burn me? What great wrong did I do for him to put me in this world and burn me??? By Allah, if he exists, I spent 3 hours crying after I finished praying, asking for an answer, and saying "What did I ever do?", "How can you burn me for me ignorance, for my idiocy when you are the most merciful?". I am afraid brothers I am not going to get any answer. But if you have you, you would have done great good. :'( Thank you brothers.

Your points are fair, though they are not battle hardened.

Often people may respond with concepts about Adam and Eve sinning in the garden of Evil. But, biologically, we know that this literal story never actually occurred.

There are different ways to understand or to believe in God or Allah. Just because some ideas you have about this particular way God or Allah is presented, just because you seem to recognize an issue with it, doesnt mean that God or Allah itself doesnt exist. It just means that the way people are speaking about this God, may not be the way this God actually is.

So, you arent necessarily an atheist, you are just a skeptic, which is fine.

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And also,

People are referring to stealing, being something that people arent forced to do.

Sometimes, stealing is necessary. Sometimes killing is necessary too. Our environment has been reconstructed for us, by God, which in some cases, leads of to conflicts of survival. Everyone knows this. Sometimes people are raised in a violent environment that leads them to believe that criminal acts are acceptable too. So, we are and can be heavily manipulated by the world and other people who have been created by this God, as well.

And understand that, even if we do have free will, and it is our decision to choose to commit a crime, we do so for reasons that are justified to us. And we justify those reasons using ideas that were created by this God. Or these ideas were created by other people, but even those other people were created by this God too.

So, no matter how you twist it, our ability to make decisions, how we make them, and the information that manipulated them, is all under the power of this creator.

Assuming this creator exists in this way.

I do not believe in this creator, this is purely hypothetical.

And your most recent post is accurate. This is the problem of evil, and nobody has an accurate response for it.

But again, it all assumes that this God is the way that you are saying it is. A God with different traits and a different way of creating things, would not be subject to this issue of corruption within the creation.

And its not about looking for freedom of sin, even non believers such as myself do act and live in ways in which I typically do not "sin". But I dont live this way out of fear of punishment. And I dont believe what I do, just because I am looking to take away my guilt.

Your points are adequate. Now, you have to ask yourself, what it all means? What is the next step in your belief? What do you do, and what do you believe in, now that you think your original ideas may not be true?

And that is a significant stage in this. If you do not have a decent answer, you may slip back into a fundamentalist mindset, so I would recommend asking around, figuring out what other solutions there are to this dilemma, those given from outside perspectives from people who have already come across this bridge and crossed it.

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Please try understand my brothers. Either Allah isn't real or he's doing some injustice.

  1. my guess is that most people will understand your point, because it is limited to our common human mind. ( however, you are comparing Allah's intelligence and sense of justice with your own here .. by judging Him .. )
  2. hopefully you can understand the point that none of us can understand Allah's reasons .. and Allah's standards of justice ..

Even though Allah decides everything and destiny exists .. there is also free will, which we are responsible for.

our intelligence is non-existent compared to Allah's intelligence, so even if something seems unfair to us ... actually nothing is.

most people who don't believe in heaven, won't wish for heaven, or chose heaven, .. because they are too blind to see its existence.

islam surrender is when we believe in Allah even if we can never understand everything. .. the whys hows whens and wheres , and so on ..

peace

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Say Allah created everyone with the same brain, the exact same brain, and they were put into their very own, but exact same environment. They will all either come out good, or bad. But what if they don't all come out good or bad, what if some are good, and some are bad? What does this mean? It means that Allah did not create them with equal intelligence or freewill.

... Tell me something, suppose I train two Martial Artists. Equal in every aspect, equal amount of self-discipline and willpower, and equal amount of smarts [and equal amount of everything]. Both are two different individual but one and the same as fighters. And now, after I ask both of them to fight for me and represent my club, one agrees yet one of them decline and pursue his own path, does that mean I didn't train to be equally trained?

Now I know that we all have different brains, and that we all experience a different environment. This is the actual case. And this my friends is the only reason some people are good and some people are bad.

... You do realize people continuously RETRAIN their "brains" and CHANGE their own environments, right?

And who with freewill would not choose to go to Jannah? Who is their right mind would choose to not go to Jannah?

Exactly those kind of people who would not choose stay away from fornication despite the fact that they have an option to marry and settle down and/or calm down their selves.

if I had the choice, I would definitely choose Jannah. Why is it that some people don't choose Jannah? If they have the exact same amount of will as me, they will choose Jannah. The fact that people choose different means that there is without a doubt some injustice done by Allah

By Allah? How do you know the injustice is not by their own selves because one decided to change his environment and retrain his brains to become evil despite the fact God gave the freewill not to do so? Besides, you decided to choose Jannah because you DESIRE it, there are people who have no desire for Jannat nor fear of Hell. [a potential eye-brow raiser, but I kid you not. People like that exists]

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Hello brothers.

Yesterday at night I was thinking about the part verse in surat al fatiha, "ghayr el maghdoobi 'alayhim", and was thinking how can Allah curse someone, and say there is a seal on their heart when they should have freewill. I understand I might not know exactly what this verse is talking about, who it's refering to, but this isn't the reason that I couldn't believe that Allah existed. I remembered in dua kumayl how it said something like, "And how can it's flames burn me when I call your name", and the dua emphasises Allah's mercy. We start every surah(except 9) with Bismillah Al Rahman, Al Raheem. He is Al Raheem. He says so many times he will forgive anything except shirk, that his mercy is unbounded. So tell me brothers, did I choose to be born? Did I make the choice to be born? No, I did not brothers, Allah made it for me. And what has Allah done by doing this? He has made me come into this material world, full of temptaions, and he has given me this brain, this intelligence. And if I say for some reason am not convinced by his message, I would deserve the worst burning ever? The most merciful, the most merciful is going to burn his poor servant that HE brought into this life, that HE gave him the intelligence he has, and then burn him? What did I ever do brothers, for Allah to burn me? What great wrong did I do for him to put me in this world and burn me??? By Allah, if he exists, I spent 3 hours crying after I finished praying, asking for an answer, and saying "What did I ever do?", "How can you burn me for me ignorance, for my idiocy when you are the most merciful?". I am afraid brothers I am not going to get any answer. But if you have you, you would have done great good. :'( Thank you brothers.


Salams Brother, may Allah (swt) bless you and enlighten ur path inshAllah.. i can relate to your agony…..

… u r not an atheist. also, i suppose you are erring in analogy by comparing the Creator’s Kalam with a Makhlook’s (creations) prayer. ..Our Creator is Rehman and Raheem, Ghaffar and is also al-Malik (the absolute ruler), so He can’t be questioned.. and He swt also al-Jalil and Jabbaar .. Allah swt is closer to u than you can ever Perceive, and yet way beyond your reach across a great void,,,,, He swt is the Allmighty, we r worthless and inconsequential for the Omnipotent God.

. i believe that making Muhammed w aaleMuhammed the Waseela to reach the Omnipotent Allah works better, especially in the state u r in.

. this blessed Household is the outcome and consequence of Gods mercy for mankind.

. pray for the Imam e waqt (as) to help you

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Hello brothers.

Yesterday at night I was thinking about the part verse in surat al fatiha, "ghayr el maghdoobi 'alayhim", and was thinking how can Allah curse someone, and say there is a seal on their heart when they should have freewill. I understand I might not know exactly what this verse is talking about, who it's refering to, but this isn't the reason that I couldn't believe that Allah existed. I remembered in dua kumayl how it said something like, "And how can it's flames burn me when I call your name", and the dua emphasises Allah's mercy. We start every surah(except 9) with Bismillah Al Rahman, Al Raheem. He is Al Raheem. He says so many times he will forgive anything except shirk, that his mercy is unbounded. So tell me brothers, did I choose to be born? Did I make the choice to be born? No, I did not brothers, Allah made it for me. And what has Allah done by doing this? He has made me come into this material world, full of temptaions, and he has given me this brain, this intelligence. And if I say for some reason am not convinced by his message, I would deserve the worst burning ever? The most merciful, the most merciful is going to burn his poor servant that HE brought into this life, that HE gave him the intelligence he has, and then burn him? What did I ever do brothers, for Allah to burn me? What great wrong did I do for him to put me in this world and burn me??? By Allah, if he exists, I spent 3 hours crying after I finished praying, asking for an answer, and saying "What did I ever do?", "How can you burn me for me ignorance, for my idiocy when you are the most merciful?". I am afraid brothers I am not going to get any answer. But if you have you, you would have done great good. :'( Thank you brothers.

I fear you have created a vicious circle for yourself. It is a form of rebellion and wishful thinking

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this is going to sound very paradoxical, but currently you are being burnt by the hell fire, the hell-fire of disbelief, and you are trying and fighting to get out of it because it pulls you in, and you feel like there is no end to this pain of confusion and not knowing with certainty where you are and where you are going, so many questions arise that cause you to questin your own selff, and your lack of higher knowledge is become oxymoronic in doing you justice, that the more you read the more confused you become

you think you fall into disbelief and ungratefulness to God, and this annoys you to the point that it hurts where you are brought into fear and tears, bitter painful tears

if you would like to soothe this pain, then read duah adeelah and concetrate on the meaning, but know this; that tommorow you will be in a better place then you currently are if you stay consistent, because you have already learned the ignorance and bitter taste of sin, and even though you wish you were covered by the veils of sin because these veils of sin bear no burden and cause you to be ignorant of ignorant, you know that you can never accept such a lifestyle despite that it causes you top step put of this burning light of questions and path of truth

the hardest veil to remove is the veil of shirk and disbelief, and its the veil which we covered ourself due to sinning while in ignorance and truly not knowing and believing in their consequence

just be patient and it will pass and fear not because Allah is there, and always remember that tommorow you will be in a better place then you are now unless you allow yourself to consciously go astray

and know that eve if you go astray, that this call will return to you again when you are more ready and better equipped to face its ordeal

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... Tell me something, suppose I train two Martial Artists. Equal in every aspect, equal amount of self-discipline and willpower, and equal amount of smarts [and equal amount of everything]. Both are two different individual but one and the same as fighters. And now, after I ask both of them to fight for me and represent my club, one agrees yet one of them decline and pursue his own path, does that mean I didn't train to be equally trained?

Well they are not equal in every way then. Their brains are different or something is different. They choose because maybe one had gotten a better offer from another club, maybe one has family problems, etc. There is something different. If they were the exact same they would both say yes.

... You do realize people continuously RETRAIN their "brains" and CHANGE their own environments, right?

That is rather irrelevant. They are still the cause of their actions, whether they can be changed or not. I never said environments couldn't be changed, it's obvious that they can. That does not matter.

Exactly those kind of people who would not choose stay away from fornication despite the fact that they have an option to marry and settle down and/or calm down their selves.

These people are different from us, are they not? If we were all the same we would choose the same, I do not know how many times I have to say that. People just won't accept it. They have been created differently.

I fear you have created a vicious circle for yourself. It is a form of rebellion and wishful thinking

Oh really, is that so? Well thanks for all the help! :/

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Well they are not equal in every way then. Their brains are different or something is different. They choose because maybe one had gotten a better offer from another club, maybe one has family problems, etc. There is something different. If they were the exact same they would both say yes.

Bro, you have to realize, even if they are different, that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm responsible for that difference. One of them could have very well allowed outside interference to mess up the perfect thinking pattern and perfect environment [and perfect everything] which I initially gave them. Besides, think of it this way too, I know I'm exactly the same person I was an hour or two ago, it's pretty obvious. I decided to visit Shiachat two hours ago, but decided not to do so right now. Does that mean The-Me two hours ago had different brains/different environment [for which God is responsible] and not exactly the same as the The-Me now?

Even despite the fact that walked out, I continuously warn him how there are many charlatans out there and don't ever misuse your power [much like God is continuously warning us even after we have all led astray]. Even IF their brains are different, I'm continuously showing them what faulty line of thinking is and stay clear of that line [God's been doing this for ages]. Even if their brain are different AND one of them decided to take faulty line of thinking AND delve into wrong environment, I'm continuously trying to convince them to REWIRE your faulty brain wiring and come back to good ol' dojo [or at least stick to the dojo-ish discipline and principles]. Even IF I was responsible for this difference [which I can assure you, I wasn't], I'm continuously trying to help them. That's FAR from injustice from my side.

That is rather irrelevant. They are still the cause of their actions, whether they can be changed or not. I never said environments couldn't be changed, it's obvious that they can. That does not matter.

Not quite. You see, you can take control of these causes to give cause to right actions. It's much like horse-riding. Even if your horse is not a very happy dude and throws you around left and right just for lulz, you can get another horse for your riding.

These people are different from us, are they not? If we were all the same we would choose the same, I do not know how many times I have to say that. People just won't accept it. They have been created differently.

Not created differently. Just nurtured to be different. See the point, bro?

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Not quite. You see, you can take control of these causes to give cause to right actions. It's much like horse-riding. Even if your horse is not a very happy dude and throws you around left and right just for lulz, you can get another horse for your riding.

You can change the way you think and your environment, so on. You can still not steal if you're poor, you can still not be proud if you're famous, you can still not do drugs when they're all around you, etc. I never said it couldn't be changed. Even if we all managed to get to heaven, does that mean it was a fair test brother? The point I'm trying to make here is it could be much much much harder for someone else to come to the right path than someone else. If you're born into a Christian family, you're more likely to stay Christian your entire life. But if you were born into a Muslim family, you're more likely to stay a Muslim you're entire life. Yes, while the Christian can still become a Muslim, it's harder for him. While the poor man can still not steal like the rich man, it's harder for him not to, and easier for the rich man. This is the point I'm trying to make. That it's not a fair test.

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You know you can always imagine the worst inner spirit for apostates, you can assume the worst intentions on part of their rejection of the religion, but when you yourself are an apostate, you know yourself better, and can investigate if you are being insincere or sincere.

I don't think there is anything believers see and hear and understand that I didn't before, and that I don't now, I just have a different view regarding that. I don't see myself as dumb, deaf and blind. I don't see myself without good that if I had any God would make me hear as opposed to being a deaf and blind disbeliever. I investigate myself before, and now, and the difference is simple, I am not convinced of Islam being true.

Before I think there was a lot of emotions attached that made me rely on illogical arguments subconsciously and also being sick I tended to believe in my schizophrenic religious experiences.

I investigate myself now, and I realize that I am thinking with less emotion, and more logic. I also don't see people as evil for rejecting "truth" even if when it becomes clear to them.

A Shia sees verses and hadiths a certain way, and he thinks a sunni is insincere if he doesn't see the same way as he does, because he naturally is being sincere. A Sunni likewise findings proofs unconvincing and finds Shias as being insincere towards analyzing the evidence. But all assuming, that if you are sincere, you would see it the same way they do.

It doesn't matter what is correct here or not, what is clear or not, people are driven by emotions, and not everyone can stop seeing through emotions.

Even if there is 100% conclusive evidence a religion is wrong, or a sect is wrong, it doesn't mean when people come to such evidence, that they are being insincere towards it if they don't accept it.

People that have kids, they been teaching religion, part of a religious community, it's not easy leaving the religion. Your subconscious often is not willing to let you accept the truth, it's your own spirit behind it, your spirit is not ready to accept the truth. It's not that your being evil, rather, you are being human. Sure you always have the choice, but it's not entirely without influence to the degree you hardly have a choice.

A Christian may sincerely believe in his religion. And then one day leaves that faith. He will probably realize that he wasn't insincere in the past.

Even when people are insincere to the truth, it usually is not out of malice towards goodness or God, but out of love of their family, community, heritage, their people they identified themselves with, and it's also about not leaving their sense of identity. They don't realize it, but there is a lot invested in that. It's a choice still, no matter how much influence, but it's not entirely their fault.

I remember the emotional turmoil I felt, when I stopped believing. And I still go through emotional turmoil right now. But at the end, I look at the problems I found, and I realize I just want to follow the truth.

I seek the truth and I hope to guide others to it. I am not shy from sharing what I believe is true.

A lot of people believe I should be killed under an Islamic state, but I don't think of them as murderers or barbarians.

The other day, I went through all sorts of convert stories, and I didn't find any conversion was due to logic, but rather emotions. It seems rather unfair when people are believing in religion on false reasoning, and being rewarded for it, while disbelievers will be punished simply for following falsehood.

I don't find the description of God in Quran to be beautiful, and I'm honest about that to myself. A Being that eternally tortures people for following falsehood (see Suratal Muhammad) is not a being worthy of worship in my view.

It's not so that all believers are humble and all disbelievers are arrogant.

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There are times when a person's fundamental beliefs are shaken

which leaves a person feeling vulnerable, insecure and desperate

seeking order and stability. In picking up the pieces and rebuilding

you will construct a stronger foundation that will increase your iman.

*"Divine mercy puts man through processes that appear to be

undesirable and troublesome, showing man that he has no

power over anything. Man has, in fact, no claim over anything

except the witnessing and the recognition of the one and

Only - La ilaha illa-llah"

*"He helps man to recognize the degree of his sincerity and honesty"

You are experiencing a very difficult time, but this is something you

must pass through, have faith in Allah (swt) He knows what is inner-

most in your heart.

When I experience such difficulties I go to Allah asking for strength and

patience, telling Him how I feel (Allah knows everything, but it makes me

feel better), to guide me through, because He is my master and I am His

Slave.

You will be well again, soon insh'Allah

* Commentary on Surat ul-Ankabut by Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri,

The Mercy of Qur'an and The Advent of Zaman - Commentary on Four Suras

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"Mercy" is bestowed on small faults, things done in ignorance, and so forth.

You are correct that this does not apply to shirq.

You are also correct in asserting you didn't "chose to be born" and you had no choice as to "where" either. Your nafs could have also been placed inside malik or jinn form (as in containment vessels). But "you" are inserted into humanoid/'great ape' form.(using bio terminology)

The God of Noah(swt) is your only Wali, so if He(swt) rejects you, you will be "screwed" on the Last Day.

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Assalamu Alaykum

(From our 7th Imam Musa Al Kadhim (A.S) translated in English (although Qiyaat here is actually Qiyamat)

One day when our 7th Imam, Imam Musa al-Kadhim (A) was only 5 years old, Abu Hanifa asked him who is responsible for our deeds. Does man do them of his own free will or does Allah make him do them.

Imam (A) replied that were are three possibilities:

Allah makes man do them.

Both Allah and man are responsible.

Man does them alone.

If the first is true than Allah should be judged on the day of Qiyamat and sent to heaven or hell.

If the second is true that both Allah and man should be judged on the day of Qiyamat and sent to heaven or hell.

The only one that is true is the third one because only man will be judged on the day of Qiyaaat and sent to heaven or hell, as only man alone is responsible for his actions and deeds.

What we need to understand is that each one of us will be tested as in a translation of the holy Quran And We will most certainly try you with somewhat of fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient (2:155), we cannot expect to live in this world without being tested. Tests are not there to make our life wretched because if we look at the Ahlulbayt (a.s) they were severely tested. This does not mean that Allah s.w.t does not love them it is the EXACT opposite Allah s.w.t tests those he loves in order to elevate their status, therefore Allah s.w.t loves the Ahlulbayt that’s why he tested them.

Not everyone will be tested the exact same way. For example not everyone will be tested with being poor. Would it make sense if Allah s.w.t made everyone on the earth poor? No. In fact even a rich person may be be tested to see if he is thanking Allah s.w.t for the blessings he has given him. If we look in a translation of the holy Quran Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know (2:216). So it may be that a person that is not rich is not as rich for a reason that may harm him and Allah is All Wise and knows what is best for his servants. Same applies to a woman in hijab. Environment is also a test for a believer as we see in this day and age many of us go to high schools where there is so much opportunity for sin and a girl wearing the hijab has to remember that the pleasure of Allah has to be above her pleasure and the pleasure of society.

This advice applies to me before you and it’s that you do have a decision to choose your environment if you feel that school/university or the country you’re living in is causing you to fall into sin you can leave, but the Quran has given us many advices to avoid sins. Also, you just like me should strive to control yourself because you are not the only one living in a hard environment. Do not let shaitain tell you that the environment is too hard and you just can’t try to be a mumin, because with Allah s.w.t’s help you will be able to live amongst a corrupt environment but still maintain your eman.

Everyone is tested in a way and this will only benefit us and make us stronger if we are patient.

We all need to struggle and Allah s.w.t is with us at all times and will help us through tough situations be it financial, educational, health related or bad environment Allah s.w.t is just and will not burden us with a test we cannot handle. In a translation of 2:286 of the holy Quran “Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people”

And Allah knows best

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Assalamu Alaykum

Also what we also must understand is that Allah s.w.t has more knowledge than us. We cannot put Allah s.w.t on the same level we are on. Allah s.w.t guides whom he wills but that does not mean that someone who is born into a Christian family is destined to hellfire because as you know Islam is one of the fasted growing religions and Alhamdulillah many Christians are converting. As you said Allah s.w.t has given us an Aqil (intelligence) therefore we must use it. Therefore a Christian should take the initiative to learn and research for the truth if he wants to be a good and guided human being.

I think your being confused with the concept of free will. Allah has created us with a specific amount of free will that will allow us to make decisions on our own. We can choose to steal, we can choose to go to the mosque it is our decision on how we live our lives. Allah s.w.t will guide us if WE want to be guided but if we want to follow our lust and desires than why would he push us towards something that we do not want.

Me like you struggle with our desires because shaitan makes the haram pleasures pleasing to us. We have to control these desires so that we can be a righteous human being that is actually worthy of going to paradise. Paradise is surrounded with hardship while hell is sounded with lusts. We have to want to change in order for Allah s.w.t to help us; we cannot expect Allah s.w.t to guide us without us wanting the straight path.

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Hello brothers.

Yesterday at night I was thinking about the part verse in surat al fatiha, "ghayr el maghdoobi 'alayhim", and was thinking how can Allah curse someone, and say there is a seal on their heart when they should have freewill. I understand I might not know exactly what this verse is talking about, who it's refering to, but this isn't the reason that I couldn't believe that Allah existed. I remembered in dua kumayl how it said something like, "And how can it's flames burn me when I call your name", and the dua emphasises Allah's mercy.

People do have free will. When they willingly do bad, dwell in ignorance and reject the guidance of Allah, Allah curses them. Allah simply responds to man's own choices.

We start every surah(except 9) with Bismillah Al Rahman, Al Raheem. He is Al Raheem. He says so many times he will forgive anything except shirk, that his mercy is unbounded. So tell me brothers, did I choose to be born? Did I make the choice to be born? No, I did not brothers, Allah made it for me.

What does being born have to do with shirk? Shirk is a belief that you choose to believe. The Quran states several times that you do not bear any sin for things your parents or family have done/believe or for any things that are out of your control.

And what has Allah done by doing this? He has made me come into this material world, full of temptaions, and he has given me this brain, this intelligence. And if I say for some reason am not convinced by his message, I would deserve the worst burning ever? The most merciful, the most merciful is going to burn his poor servant that HE brought into this life, that HE gave him the intelligence he has, and then burn him?

This point is a huge contradiction. Like you said, Allah has given you the intelligence to comprehend and recognize the truth. When you reject the truth and knowledge in favor of ignorance, then again, that is something you chose to do. You also don't seem to understand the concept of a servant or Allah's mercy. Simply being a human on this earth does not make you a servant of Allah. A servant of Allah is someone who wants to (i.e. chooses willingly) to serve Allah/Islam. Someone who rejects Islam or willingly acts sinfully is not a servant of Allah. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that Allah will forgive all humans for every sin they commit, except for those committed out of ignorance (which again contradicts your point on intelligence), and if knowledge comes to you about your ignorance and you choose to deny it, then those sins will not be forgiven. Again, that is your choice (regarding your point on free will). Allah punishes man for sins they willfully commit.

What did I ever do brothers, for Allah to burn me? What great wrong did I do for him to put me in this world and burn me??? By Allah, if he exists, I spent 3 hours crying after I finished praying, asking for an answer, and saying "What did I ever do?", "How can you burn me for me ignorance, for my idiocy when you are the most merciful?". I am afraid brothers I am not going to get any answer. But if you have you, you would have done great good. :'( Thank you brothers.

According to the Quran, Allah will not burn you or punish you for your ignorance, unless you yourself choose to be ignorant and indulge in sin. Committing any sin whatsoever also does not mean a one-way ticket to hell. Depending on the seriousness of the sin and how many sins you've committed, it can result in being admitted into a lower heaven (there are 7 heavens in Islam in case you're not aware) or being punished in this world.

The Quran states that Allah is The Most Just. Allah will not/does not wrong anyone in the least, nor does He ever commit an injustice. Allowing someone who spends their entire life willfully committing sins into the same abode in the hereafter as someone who has spent their whole life trying to do good would be an injustice.

Furthermore, Islam also the only religion in the world that preaches true justice, condemned racism, crime, corruption, slavery, viciousness, gave value and rights to women, says to incline towards peace, to help the needy and orphans, etc.

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Again, thank you for your replies. Here is an example to explain exactly what I'm talking about. Take a certain person. He is born into a poor, unhealthy, uneducated, and undernourished family. He has no food. He is forced to steal, even though he knows it is against Allah. His environment has caused his actions. Now take that very same person, but he was born into a rich family, with all the food he ever needs, all the money and education he can get, and he doesn't steal, but rather is a good Muslim, a very good one, who gives to charity, etc. What is my point here? My point is that very same person had different actions due to his environment. Another example would be where am I more likely to commit rape? In an islamic country where every woman wears the hijab, or a country where in which the women are bearly wearing any clothes? I do not choose my environment, and therefore it means it is harder for me than someone else due to my environment, meaning we do not get an equal chance. And if you were to say to me that, "Yes, but Allah will take that into account.", then really no one will go to hell, because the reason they commit these sins is due to their environment or how their brain develop in which took no part or could choose. Please tell me how this is wrong. Once again, thank you.

There is a partial truth to what you are saying, but not complete. With your logic, people like Hitler, or Pedro Alonso Lopez should never be held responsible and jailed; only the society they grew up in---their parents, their classmates, their neighbors, and their teachers--should be held responsible and imprisoned.

About what prompted your doubts:

Sirataladeena An'amta alayhim,

Ghayril Maghdoobi Alayhim.

Notice how N'ima (blessing) is attributed directly to God (God blesses people). While Ghadab (wrath or anger) is not attributed to God (the people experience wrath or anger)? This is because God (Allah) is Rahman and Raheem (Bismillahirahmaniraheem). Mercy is what defines God's nature, not Wrath. Wrath is experienced accidentally (as a consequence of being obstinate to God's blessing and mercy) and is therefore entirely extrinsic to God's very Nature.

Take care

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brother be thankful Allah created you if he didnt you would still be nothing like you were before and even for you to think like this dont you think its a blessing, look around brother, signs left and right, in the quran it says "And which sign of your lord will you reject now?"

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Brother i understand exactly where you are coming from, i found myself asking the very questions;

For example:

why have i been created if i didn't choose, and then i have had rules imposed on me which are most likely to break because of the society that is surrounding me, further i will be punished because of the way i act in that influential society, and in the most common cases because of my influenced perception my priorities reflects those of that very environment i have been brought up in. I could not find an answer, so i started to break the question down:

Why have i been created without my choice: I received an answer from a very intelligent brother of mines, and then a similar answer from uncle of mine, although i must make clear i have not yet had time to research whether it is true: he said, 'we choose to be born on this earth, in the family we are born in, and we choose who our relatives are, because we choose to prove our loyalty to Allah (s.w.t)' (this point about choosing relatives is to some extent contradicted by a great lecturer 'sayed ammar nakshawani- Pre destination and free will'). When i asked my uncle, he talked about NDE's (near death experiences), and how people who have had these experiences have talked about seeing prophets of Allah (s.w.t) and getting abundant knowledge out of no where if as they already knew, and there was one particular person he mentioned who (if i remember correctly) said that we chose, or better yet requested to come on this earth ourselves. That does, if not convince for our purpose, prove that there is a creator, and once you die, and leave this body in which your unimaginably powerful soul is imprisoned for the limited time, you begin to remember everything you know and what it was like before you came into this earth when you were just a soul.

Secondly, i thought about the rules that are imposed on me: I had a good think about all the rules, in fact i have an atheist of mine with whom i occasional enjoy a debating session, and i began to open mindedly accept and then evaluate every point he made about Islam that is unjust. I started to sway a little but with extensive research into metaphoric meaning and how that point could be seen if it were to affect the time before, today and the time until the earth is to cease, it made sense to me, i could not find a single flaw in the rules that i had researched myself, i found countless flaws in the people that claim to be the followers of these laws, and the way in which they follow, but the laws themselves seem faultless and just. So i came to the conclusion that there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the rules imposed on me if they are all for the justice of every living being, so there must been something wrong with the way i, myself at first considered these rules.

Thirdly, i started looking at the society surrounding me, and that surrounding someone in a better position then i am and how my actions would differ from his in certain situations. I found an answer: You are where you are for a reason (whether your born there, or have ended up there somehow) and Allah (s.w.t) never burdens you with more then that which you can handle. So i started looking around and realised that the rich are rich for a reason, and the poor are poor for a reason, they each have different tests which then links them and is aimed to break the divide. A poor mans test is more to do with intellect, and how he can break out of the norm which his society is in, and a rich mans test is to do with material, and how he should part with his possessions to make a poor mans life easier. So for there to be a test there had to be categories of people, if you look into the debt of what the 'actual' barriers around us are, and how we can break them, its a very intelligent design, but of course i have mentioned it on the smallest of scales.

Fourthly, and finally about my perception of what is right and what is indeed wrong: I realised that ignorance is not bliss contrary to what we are repeatedly told by almost everyone around us, in fact in Islam it is seen as a disease of the mind, and it is a barrier that one must overcome to understand at question at hand and others like it, look at the following lecture 'sayed ammar nakshawani-ignorance'. It teaches that it is our selves that allow our selves to be caught up in the worldly influences, our desires and emotions rage over logic and righteousness which is why we create the society that we are in, if it is thought in debt it is us who are part and parcel of that society, so it is not us that should be influenced, rather us who influence it, by nothing more then our own actions.

So my conclusion of my question:

1. We choose to come to earth to prove our loyalty, 2. The rules imposed on us are to protect us and all others who have chosen to come and prove their loyalty 3. The society has become corrupt and it is our test to rise above it and help people understand peacefully the forgotten meaning of life, and 4. The only way we can do this is by breaking the bounds of ignorance and deeply understanding values of a peaceful religion, which can arguably be the entire test or purpose of life, which would then justify anything that stops us from breaking the chains ignorance as being the test (eg environment around us), simply because that is what the purpose of a test is. Now if i were to harm another soul, or not to follow the just laws which affect others who are here to prove themselves, then rightly there should be a punishment from the creator, from whom i requested to be here, and the same goes for the laws which i break that affect me only because what is the purpose of a test if there is no punishment or outcome, right?

The answers you get from breaking your questions down are, when separated, seen in a different light, and id encourage you to do this, it has restored my faith in Allah (s.w.t), but even the answers you get do not restore your faith, keep looking, because the more solid you answer is, the more it will then strengthen your faith, because arguably the more research went into it.

I hope this helps.

Please let me know if there is something you did not understand or if i may have said something wrong :D

Allah-Haifz

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one way to think about it is that we are in a test and either fail or succeed and find our way in the straight path towards paradise, but we can also think that Allah has created us and knows every little thing about everything that he has created. He does not need us praying or fasting or in fact any of our deeds, either good or bad deeds, because He is our creator and the creator of the universe...so when he created us and told us to witness and say that He is our lord and the only ONE, we did, and when he sent us to this earth is but to show us our deeds and how we believed in Him or how we did not, and this is what He will ask us when we return to Him. within this life we were given signs and messengers, because Allah is most merciful, He does not wish for His servants to go to hell, or to suffer, the signs were always placed in our path so that we can believe. when we return we will be asked about these signs and if they were not enough for us to start to believe in HIM....

remember that many prophets had started by questioning the existance of Allah and meditating and believing in the signs that was given to them, take prophet Ibrahim A.S. when he asked about the gods that his father and tribe used to worship, he didnot believe in them, then he questioned if the sun was the god, or the moon, etc... until he firmly believed that there is no God except for Allah.

and lastly "Not upon you, [O Muhammad], is [responsibility for] their guidance, but Allah guides whom He wills." Surat Al Baqarah 2:272 Although signs and messeges is given, but Allah guides whom He pleases to the right path. if you open your heart whilst reading the Quran, you will find that your heart will rest from all these questions and from all this sadness, because Allah has sent the Quran and His prophet as a mercy and guidiance and not for loss of faith and confusion.

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There is a partial truth to what you are saying, but not complete. With your logic, people like Hitler, or Pedro Alonso Lopez should never be held responsible and jailed; only the society they grew up in---their parents, their classmates, their neighbors, and their teachers--should be held responsible and imprisoned.

There's a difference between

1) Holding someone responsible for their actions and then giving them a draconian punishment.

and

2) Deeming someone not responsible for their actions, but coming to the conclusion that they have a bad character and will continue to make other people suffer if they are not incarcerated for everybody else's protection.

If it were possible, we would imprison Tornado's and Earthquakes, even though we don't hold them responsible for what they do. However when you cease to believe in free will, ideas like vengeance or inflicting pain upon people to punish them don't make sense.

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We burn ourselves brother...we burn ourselves with our immoral behavior..we burn ourselves with impure intentions, we cannot behave in this domain at all! We struggle to follow sharia and find it very difficult to lead pious lives because we would rather embrace that which is temporal. You think that you as you are could exist in close proximity to Allah. We don;t have the moral integrity to stand that close to His creative fire...nor are we responsible or willful enough to control our thoughts in the creative domain of AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. We would manifest horror after horror...just like we do here on earth. We have to choose to put ourselves through the "fire" here to avoid the fire after this life is over. Do you know how to make steel? First you start with iron ore. It is brittle and not very strong because it is filled with impurities. But if you heat the metal and hammer out the impurities over and over again it becomes stronger and stronger. We are not so different. Either way the impurities will be burned out. Because in the end, those impurities, whether moral or physical cannot exist in the presence of AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. We even get new bodies before we go to paradise because these bodies are not adequate. We have to ask ourselves : Am I prepared to live in paradise? Islam is path towards this end. Allah(swt) is the Most Merciful..he has given the path towards Him...over and over again.

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(salam)

You're going through a state of perplexity, which a very fruitful state.

If you resist temptations and continue with your questions and seeking answers you will receive them.

Regarding God's mercy, I must mention that He is the most merciful for creating the best world for us to live in.

In this world, everything is designed/created/evolved in accordance with perfect laws and calculations.

These laws are in harmony with God's ethical laws/commandments.

The two complement one another.

If you follow the latter you will understand the former, and if you contemplate regarding the former you will be pulled towards the latter.

Let me use a chemistry example.

In chemistry as you know you can mix elements and compounds and have a chemical equation.

In this equation, you can either add to the right side or to the left side.

However, there is a limit to how much you can add and there is a limit to how far and how long this chemical reaction can continue.

At some point, this reaction becomes irreversible. It means that the products cannot be turned into the reagents anymore.

The chemical reaction is finished.

The latter state cannot turn into the former state, regardless of what is done to it.

Now, human actions in their surrounding world is similar to this chemical reaction.

Your actions in your environment lead to a different you, and you are the product of that reaction.

You can either follow God's commandments, with proper understanding, and turn yourself into a desirable product or you could give into temptations and turn yourself into a different product that is not desirable.

In either case, at some point, you (the product) become permanent. Your reaction becomes irreversible.

These people are those who have been cursed and those who will spend for eternity in hellfire.

Their substance becomes incompatible with paradise.

Paradise, as an entity, rejects these individuals due to their substance, their impure substance.

Regardless of how hard you try, you cannot mix oil and water together.

This is not an indication of God's lack of mercy.

Rather this is part of God's justice.

God has created a perfect world, which is governed by perfect merciful laws.

It is not God's fault when a chemistry students spoils a chemical reaction.

Neither is it God's fault when a person spoils his nature/substance and makes it incompatible with paradise.

This issue can be tied to the issue of free will as well.

The source of free will is your brain and body, your biology.

Anything that a human has, anything that a human does, anything that a human thinks has a biological source.

We are biological entities. Thus, our free will has a direct link to our biology.

Now, when a person spoils his nature/substance by going against God's commands and laws, he spoils his biology.

He spoils his thoughts, his intentions and his perception.

He spoils how he sees the world and how he thinks about the world.

These all have biological routes.

A spoiled biology leads to a spoiled free will.

A ruined biology leads to a ruined free will.

This ruined free will, even though it is present, cannot guide and bring individuals back to the right path.

It is irreversibly ruined. It irreversibly causes mistaken perception, mistaken thoughts and mistaken desires.

This is an issue of cause and effect.

God has created this world perfectly due to His mercy, with perfect governing laws.

It would not be merciful if God had created us like animals without free will.

It would not be merciful if God had created us like robots or machines without free will.

(salam)

A spoiled biology leads to a spoiled free will.

A ruined biology leads to a ruined free will.

This ruined free will, even though it is present, cannot guide and bring individuals back to the right path.

It is irreversibly ruined. It irreversibly causes mistaken perception,mistaken thoughts and mistaken desires.

This is an issue of cause and effect.

Salam Aleikum-Everything in your post makes sense to me except for this one portion. I know people that had lead their lives totally submerged in behaviors such as drug and alcohol addiction,and all manners of bad behavior than accompany addiction,who have chosen to turn their lives around and excepted and follow Islam,so I guess although what you posted may be the truth for the majority of people, I still see there being hope even for the most strayed individuals:)

PEACE:)

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I have no doubt in my mind that god does exist, and i have no doubt in my mind that he is neither merciful or gracious.

This comes out of living the same pain that i begged and tried very hard to remove from my self. he creates at will, curses at will, gives people sickness at will, creates people in poverty at will. And then tells you without question "I choose who is rich, who is poor", "I choose who is cursed and who is not" " I choose who is happy who is not"

Look at ahow god responds to our prayers; how he delays the simplist form of request. I have lived in abusive household, and then had to take care of the person who caused me the most pain in my life, to later die in my arms, without any responce to my prayer! I want this pain to be over and regardless how much I try I can't seem to get a way. The one pain in my life that I prayed and prayed about has never been lifted! He kept my father ill for 20 years, amputation after amputation, after amputation.

Not one single prayer has ever been answered!

What kind of religion that tells you its ok to marry a 12 year old!, or that you can beat your wife! or decides what colors to wear! What kind of god forces you in that much pain! without even asking you if you even want to be born! its Sadistic!, Cruel, and without an empathy to his own creation!

What was god doing when hussain was being murdered, his children slaughtered, daughters raped, etc

I am sorry for not having the luxury to be around moses to see the spliting of the sea, or see mohamad travel on a stone, or any of those fantastic stories that we read.

If you want faith, show it to me, just show me! I want to experience it, i want success, I want to be at peace, right now i wish i was never born, and most importantly never been born a muslim, those people seem to catch a break every once in a while. I didnt ask to be born, nor did I ask to be born in that situation, nor did I ask to live through this.!

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the poor man has a choice. the rich man has a choice. what the Ahle Bait have given us through the example of their own lives is the ideology that environment is irrelevant - it is how you understand it and deal with it - how you behave towards others in your suffering - with generosity, with kindness -how you react to treachery, hate, unjustice done to you - with wisdom, compassion, with strength and courage. just remember the plains of karbala - the 72 - the environment they were in.....and the choices they made....we exist because of those choices. it is unbecoming to 'whine' about environment. it is asking a redundant question like why did it rain? why did the river over flow? why did the village get washed away? why did the children drown? it is part of life, this planet, the cycle of things. in the larger scheme of things, in the grand play of god, all the pieces fit to make a whole. in god's universe he has created it all. and we are part of it, and our sole purpose is - how we behave? the choices we make. the decisions we take. since we are extremely obtuse we have been given a set of directions.....to elevate us from the vile instincts we deviate towards to a more evolved form of existence.

Edited by ruralsands

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inalotofpain

i wish i could talk to you. it is so difficult to speak on these forums.

you cannot pray for happiness. you cannot pray for pain to go away. you cannot pray for people to change. you cannot pray for illness to go away. or death. you cannot pray for to find love. or beautiful wife. or pray for children if you have none. you cannot pray to get rid of people.

you can pray for strength. which is already inside you. you can pray to find it. someone who abuses you...is someone whose soul you pray for because they will have to answer to Him. you will pray for strength to deal with them. you have the power to distance yourself almost like in a balloon and the abuser is on the other side... and you watch as they loose control. and you watch as all those abuses bounce of the balloon. Physical abuse....there it gets more difficult. I personally have had to deal with very little physical abuse. i stopped it. but i deal with a lot of verbal abuse and sometimes i fail and react, sometimes i distance myself. i pray for strength always. Physical abuse should not be tolerated. I dont know your circumstance. the sitution you are stuck in. can you get out. etc.

the onus is on you. how you deal with your life situation is what the tenets of islam and most other religions teach us. we are born on this earth and if you think about it in another hundred years all of us and all we know will be gone. so this moment this life you have - that you so desperately dont want - will be gone anyway - this is your only moment - and there is much to look at. appreciate, marvel. experience. again i dont know how much you have suffered. abuse illness. it sounds like you are drowning. i have felt that way. where it is all falling apart. and in moments one wonders what it would be like to just not exist and there fore end suffering. but you live another day. find ways to overcome strife. find ways to love life. love people. because all of it - the good the bad and the ugly - is what life is about - the war the peace the killing the birth the rape the love - to god these things are trivial and part of being human - once he made us - he give us the good and the bad - he doesnt interfere - what he does look for is how we deal with it. with strength. absolute strength to forgive love care and live!

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there was a man once who got it into his head that his house did not have enough fire exits. The idea of a fire in his house consumed him. He began making large hole in the walls of his house in every room to facilitate his escape. He then went to bed and died of hypothermia

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