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Haydar Husayn

Were The Classical Scholars Muqassirs?

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Rationally the doctrine seems problematic. How does a nine year old Imam possess sufficient knowledge of Deen? I presume that the doctrine implies that the older Aimmah had memorised the contents of the books, that Ahlulbayt had, to a sufficient level and had been taught by their father or previous Imam. It seems necessary that the Imams receive knowledge.

Do correct me if my understanding is mistaken.

It does pose difficulties when you come to the issue of the child Imams. But that said, it's not impossible for a child to be a prodigy (Mozart was showing his skill by age 3 and composing at the age of 5...), and it's safe to assume that if anyone would have been especially gifted at a young age, it would have been the future Imams.

But even if we are to admit some more miraculous means of the knowledge being transmitted from Imam to Imam (say at the moment the Imam's father passes away and he becomes the new Imam), ilham seems to go further than this, and refers to a type of "inspiration" the Imam receives to get the right answers and learn matters previously unknown to him when he has need of it. How exactly this is different from wahi I don't know. Believing them to be prophets is kufr of course, so it makes me wonder if "ilham" wasn't just a way of trying to get around that by giving it a different name.

Apart from that problem, the question ilham and such beliefs leave would be things like why do the hadiths mention the books in the Imams possessions and their consulting of them. If they just needed to be "inspired" to know whatever they needed to know, why look it up in a book?

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Ok, that's all I'm asking for, that you tell me which views you consider to be taqsir and which aren't. You don't need to label anyone if you don't want to. However, if you don't trust that the views of these scholars were properly preserved, then why do you trust the hadiths found in their books? I think people would have more motivation for tampering with al-Kafi, say, than some theological work of a scholar.

What does 'protectors of the universe mean'? I don't believe in pre-existence, but I don't necessarily consider it to be ghuluw in itself. Ghalis are more likely to strongly believe in it though.

I don't believe in those Ahadees because they were written there,but they are matched with Quran,and logic thats why.

So what is ghuluw in your sense?

And people can have motivation of tampering anywhere,which could effect the Shia Aqaid regarding Masoomeen(as),what were they doing since centuries apart from that,living example is there in form of 'hcy'.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Were all companions truthful?

When Prophet(saww) could n't get ones,how our Imams(as) had 'immaculate friends'?

Yet you presumably trust those companions to truthfully narrate the words of the Imams (as), don't you? If you can't even trust the close companions, then who can you trust?

It would be fascinating to know exactly what your methodology would be for getting from the sources of our religion to your beliefs if someone was stuck on a desert island and didn't know anything about Islam. Because as far as I can see, you just pick and choose whatever you want from the Quran and ahadith in order to support the views you already have. If an ayah goes against your view, you dismiss it in favour of a hadith, or a 'rational' argument. If a hadith goes against your view, you dismiss it in favour of an ayah, or another hadith, or some 'rational' argument. If a famous scholar says something against your view, you wonder if his words were tampered with. I've never quite seen anything like this.

Honestly, if you knew nothing about Islam, had never met any Muslims, and just had the sources, how on earth would you come to your views? Do think it's possible?

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On the issue of ilham, wouldn't some kind of divine inspiration exist between Allah and the Hidden Imam? Wouldn't he be waiting for Allah's divine order to reveal himself, as his appearance does not seem conditional or an issue of no bada. On the issue of communication, I think there are enough traditions out there that suggest that the Imam at times can hear angelic voices. Wahi on the other hand would imply an archangel revealing a new order or new law; which is the function of a prophet. Nonetheless, Maryam (as) saw and heard the angel (in a human form), and Allah says "awHayna" in relation to the mother of Musa (though unclear if it's an order via an angel, or just an implicit inspiration/ ilham). What about Talut (as), didn't Allah need to order him and his people not to drink from the water? Or Fatima (as) and her mus`haf? I don't see the issue with supernatural transfers of knowledge as it seems to have happened to non-prophets too, as long as it fits within the Qur'an and the Sunna.

Edited by Qa'im

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It does pose difficulties when you come to the issue of the child Imams. But that said, it's not impossible for a child to be a prodigy (Mozart was showing his skill by age 3 and composing at the age of 5...), and it's safe to assume that if anyone would have been especially gifted at a young age, it would have been the future Imams.

But even if we are to admit some more miraculous means of the knowledge being transmitted from Imam to Imam (say at the moment the Imam's father passes away and he becomes the new Imam), ilham seems to go further than this, and refers to a type of "inspiration" the Imam receives to get the right answers and learn matters previously unknown to him when he has need of it. How exactly this is different from wahi I don't know. Believing them to be prophets is kufr of course, so it makes me wonder if "ilham" wasn't just a way of trying to get around that by giving it a different name.

Apart from that problem, the question ilham and such beliefs leave would be things like why do the hadiths mention the books in the Imams possessions and their consulting of them. If they just needed to be "inspired" to know whatever they needed to know, why look it up in a book?

Baby Jesus spoke in His Mother's lap,these are miracles no need to be prodigies only.

Wahi is always brought by Angels,and the message has to be conveyed to the masses most of the time,wahi was method to design Sharia in this world,whereas the purpose of ilham was to convey the knowledge of unseen as much as is desired.

Yet you presumably trust those companions to truthfully narrate the words of the Imams (as), don't you? If you can't even trust the close companions, then who can you trust?

It would be fascinating to know exactly what your methodology would be for getting from the sources of our religion to your beliefs if someone was stuck on a desert island and didn't know anything about Islam. Because as far as I can see, you just pick and choose whatever you want from the Quran and ahadith in order to support the views you already have. If an ayah goes against your view, you dismiss it in favour of a hadith, or a 'rational' argument. If a hadith goes against your view, you dismiss it in favour of an ayah, or another hadith, or some 'rational' argument. If a famous scholar says something against your view, you wonder if his words were tampered with. I've never quite seen anything like this.

Honestly, if you knew nothing about Islam, had never met any Muslims, and just had the sources, how on earth would you come to your views? Do think it's possible?

Hayder all of your allegations going against your own self,where do you find Mufeed is saying something of your desire,you take it,then the same mufeed says something against your choice then his teacher becomes right.

In one thread you were arguing Quran has been distorted(nauzbillah),then you start bringing verses which again you may find feasible to relate with your philosophies.Whats the assurance these are not distorted ones,as per your view?

When we talk about modern scholars they become ghaali,when mutahri say something of your choice then you forget even if classicsl is saying something against it.

Seriously we need to know according to you what is reliable?Who is reliable?

My way of judgement is never to support specific set of texts ,or people,but to follow what Imam Ali(as) said ''knowledge is lost treasure of momin,take it where ever you find'',He did n't mention such and such people will give you knowledge only.

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On the issue of ilham, wouldn't some kind of divine inspiration exist between Allah and the Hidden Imam? Wouldn't he be waiting for Allah's divine order to reveal himself, as his appearance does not seem conditional or an issue of no bada. On the issue of communication, I think there are enough traditions out there that suggest that the Imam at times can hear angelic voices. Wahi on the other hand would imply an archangel revealing a new order or new law; which is the function of a prophet. Nonetheless, Maryam (as) saw and heard the angel (in a human form), and Allah says "awHayna" in relation to the mother of Musa (though unclear if it's an order via an angel, or just an implicit inspiration/ ilham). What about Talut (as), didn't Allah need to order him and his people not to drink from the water? Or Fatima (as) and her mus`haf? I don't see the issue with supernatural transfers of knowledge as it seems to have happened to non-prophets too, as long as it fits within the Qur'an and the Sunna.

The problem there is not all prophets (perhaps most even) were law givers, but many were confirming of whatever Shari`a was in place in their time, so wahi doesn't just mean the giving of laws (though even there it doesn't help anyway, since a primary function of the Imams is to transmit the laws, and the example you cited of the Imam waiting for his zhuhoor would seem like an example of an order). So again it raises the question that what is the difference between a nabi and an Imam if one is to believe in such things as ilham, keeping in mind that to say the Imam is a nabi is kufr and takes you out of Islam (so obviously not a trivial matter). Even Shaykh Mufid had to concede that `aqlan he couldn't really figure out a difference but just had to accept is sam`an. This doesn't seem a satisfactory answer however, while if instead we take a position more akin to Hisham's the distinction is very clear and unambiguous.

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Apart from that problem, the question ilham and such beliefs leave would be things like why do the hadiths mention the books in the Imams possessions and their consulting of them. If they just needed to be "inspired" to know whatever they needed to know, why look it up in a book?

Yeah, I've often wondered what people who believed they received that type of inspiration made of those hadiths. For example:

Imam al-Kadhim (as) was supposed to have said about Nowruz, speaking to the Caliph Mansoor:

“I have examined the reports transmitted to me from my grandfather the Prophet of Allah (S), and I have not found any details regarding this day of celebration. This had been the practice of the Persians, while Islam has abolished it, and Allah's Refuge, that we should enliven the abrogations of Islam”.

Now, it could be argued this was 'taqiyyah' since he was talking to the Caliph. But how about:

(One day) his son, Abu Ja`far, (Muhammad al-Baqir), peace be on them, came to him. He had carried out in worship what no one had ever carried out. He saw that his colour had gone yellow from weeping all night; his eyes had used up all their water from being awake all night; his forehead was bruised and his nose squashed from prostrating; and his legs and feet were swollen from standing in prayer.

Abu Ja`far, peace be on him, reported: "I could not control myself from weeping when I saw him in that state and I wept, may God have mercy on him. Behold, he was thinking and he turned to me a short time after I had come and said: "My son, give me some of those parchments in which there is the (practice of) worship of `Ali b. Abi Talib, peace be on him."

"I gave them to him and he read something from them for a while. Then he let them go from his hand in exasperation and said: "Who is strong enough to perform the worship of `Ali b. Abi Talib, peace be upon him."

(Kitab al-Irshad)

What the Imam (as) doing taqiyyah from his son? Was this whole story made up for the benefit of doing taqiyyah from a companion? Or did they just play these roles so that it could then be narrated to some person who obviously couldn't handle the 'truth' about the Imams?

No explanation seems particularly convincing.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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The problem there is not all prophets (perhaps most even) were law givers, but many were confirming of whatever Shari`a was in place in their time, so wahi doesn't just mean the giving of laws (though even there it doesn't help anyway, since a primary function of the Imams is to transmit the laws, and the example you cited of the Imam waiting for his zhuhoor would seem like an example of an order). So again it raises the question that what is the difference between a nabi and an Imam if one is to believe in such things as ilham, keeping in mind that to say the Imam is a nabi is kufr and takes you out of Islam (so obviously not a trivial matter). Even Shaykh Mufid had to concede that `aqlan he couldn't really figure out a difference but just had to accept is sam`an. This doesn't seem a satisfactory answer however, while if instead we take a position more akin to Hisham's the distinction is very clear and unambiguous.

How did Imam Ali(as) decided most difficult cases in times of umar? without knowledge of unseen?

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Yeah, I've often wondered what people who believed they received that type of inspiration made of those hadiths. For example:

Imam al-Kadhim (as) was supposed to have said about Nowruz, speaking to the Caliph Mansoor:

“I have examined the reports transmitted to me from my grandfather the Prophet of Allah (S), and I have not found any details regarding this day of celebration. This had been the practice of the Persians, while Islam has abolished it, and Allah's Refuge, that we should enliven the abrogations of Islam”.

Now, it could be argued this was 'taqiyyah' since he was talking to the Caliph. But how about:

(One day) his son, Abu Ja`far, (Muhammad al-Baqir), peace be on them, came to him. He had carried out in worship what no one had ever carried out. He saw that his colour had gone yellow from weeping all night; his eyes had used up all their water from being awake all night; his forehead was bruised and his nose squashed from prostrating; and his legs and feet were swollen from standing in prayer.

Abu Ja`far, peace be on him, reported: "I could not control myself from weeping when I saw him in that state and I wept, may God have mercy on him. Behold, he was thinking and he turned to me a short time after I had come and said: "My son, give me some of those parchments in which there is the (practice of) worship of `Ali b. Abi Talib, peace be on him."

"I gave them to him and he read something from them for a while. Then he let them go from his hand in exasperation and said: "Who is strong enough to perform the worship of `Ali b. Abi Talib, peace be upon him."

(Kitab al-Irshad)

What the Imam (as) doing taqiyyah from his son? Was this whole story made up for the benefit of doing taqiyyah from a companion? Or did they just play these roles so that it could then be narrated to some person who obviously couldn't handle the 'truth' about the Imams?

No explanation seems particularly convincing.

Who is denying these traditions and what does it have to do with'explanations?'

Why would someone need knowledge of the unseen in order to properly execute the Shari`a?

There were cases where knowledge of unseen was required about from legal knowledge only,as apparently they were looking ambiguous.

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Hayder all of your allegations going against your own self,where do you find Mufeed is saying something of your desire,you take it,then the same mufeed says something against your choice then his teacher becomes right.

No, this is not what I'm doing at all.

In one thread you were arguing Quran has been distorted(nauzbillah),then you start bringing verses which again you may find feasible to relate with your philosophies.Whats the assurance these are not distorted ones,as per your view?

I've never argued that the Qur'an was distorted. I may have questioned the belief that it is absolutely certain it is in the same form as it was mean to be, but that's it. It doesn't change the fact that the Qur'an is the word of God, and that we are to use it as our primary source. I don't believe there are errors in it.

When we talk about modern scholars they become ghaali,when mutahri say something of your choice then you forget even if classicsl is saying something against it.

You can have ghali views, and still say something intelligent about history, or be skilled in fiqh. I'm not blindly following anyone here. In matters of aqaid, I would generally trust the classical scholars over the modern ones, but it is always based on evidence. However, in terms of history that doesn't have to be the case. New facts can come to light from other sources. On the other hand, hadith that pop up 1000 years later have to be viewed with extreme suspicion.

Seriously we need to know according to you what is reliable?Who is reliable?

More people than you find reliable, clearly.

My way of judgement is never to support specific set of texts ,or people,but to follow what Imam Ali(as) said ''knowledge is lost treasure of momin,take it where ever you find'',He did n't mention such and such people will give you knowledge only.

I'm sorry, but in the end all you are doing is looking for evidence to back up what you already believe. I believe I have a very clear methodology for getting to what I believe from scratch. I'm not reliant on pre-existing traditions passed down to me by my elders.

Who is denying these traditions and what does it have to do with'explanations?'

Why would an Imam who knows everything from the beginning of the universe to the end and has knowledge of the unseen need to consult parchments in order to remind himself of how Imam `Ali (as) worshipped?

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Brother La fata,i don't know where your post disappeared which i just saw,may be you have deleted it,why should i step aside?

These are discussion forums,not personal duels,everyone expresses his/her ideas,nobody imposes,why should one of them steps out? Its ridiculous advice infact.

No offence please

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No, this is not what I'm doing at all.

I've never argued that the Qur'an was distorted. I may have questioned the belief that it is absolutely certain it is in the same form as it was mean to be, but that's it. It doesn't change the fact that the Qur'an is the word of God, and that we are to use it as our primary source. I don't believe there are errors in it.

You can have ghali views, and still say something intelligent about history, or be skilled in fiqh. I'm not blindly following anyone here. In matters of aqaid, I would generally trust the classical scholars over the modern ones, but it is always based on evidence. However, in terms of history that doesn't have to be the case. New facts can come to light from other sources. On the other hand, hadith that pop up 1000 years later have to be viewed with extreme suspicion.

More people than you find reliable, clearly.

I'm sorry, but in the end all you are doing is looking for evidence to back up what you already believe. I believe I have a very clear methodology for getting to what I believe from scratch. I'm not reliant on pre-existing traditions passed down to me by my elders.

Why would an Imam who knows everything from the beginning of the universe to the end and has knowledge of the unseen need to consult parchments in order to remind himself of how Imam `Ali (as) worshipped?

You say Quran is not same,what else does it means?

More than me people rely on what? If at this time you are not finding people to counter you,does it mean everyone is agreeing?

Have people participated in the poll?

These parchments can be remembrance of the fervent worship of His grandfather not that He forgot it so asked it.

In matters of Aqaid,when a hadees of same scholars is being brought about,you reject it saying,they might have different interpretations.

If Sadooq says Imams(as) were martyred you put a criticism on it,that mufeed had better approach,if mufeed says Bibi Shehrbano(as) was Imam's(as) mother,then he became myth-maker.

Anyways leave it all,if we start getting personal,that would be endless discussion,but i don't merely abide by those things as my parents believed,but i find reasons for everything myself,and i never deny an Ayat,but its self interpreted out of context analysis i deny.But when we gave you Ayaat you rejected the meanings even described in Tafaseer.

Leave it 'you and me' thing ,concentrate on topic.

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The problem there is not all prophets (perhaps most even) were law givers, but many were confirming of whatever Shari`a was in place in their time, so wahi doesn't just mean the giving of laws (though even there it doesn't help anyway, since a primary function of the Imams is to transmit the laws, and the example you cited of the Imam waiting for his zhuhoor would seem like an example of an order). So again it raises the question that what is the difference between a nabi and an Imam if one is to believe in such things as ilham, keeping in mind that to say the Imam is a nabi is kufr and takes you out of Islam (so obviously not a trivial matter). Even Shaykh Mufid had to concede that `aqlan he couldn't really figure out a difference but just had to accept is sam`an. This doesn't seem a satisfactory answer however, while if instead we take a position more akin to Hisham's the distinction is very clear and unambiguous.

It's a good point, and you know my tirade against ghuloo quite well, though perhaps the non ulil-`azm prophets had functions that went beyond confirmation of previous messages. For example, Shu`ayb (as) brought the mizan to his community, Salih (as) brought the naaqa, Idris (as) in some narratives brought the pen and language, Lut (as) came with a fiqh law for an issue that did not exist prior to him, Dawud (as) brought the Psalms, etc. On the other hand, people like Dhul Qarnayn, Luqman, Talut, Maryam, Musa's mother, Fatima, and al-Khidr had a purpose in their society and even access to some divine secrets, but were distinctly not prophets - no book, no certain message or new command that did not exist beforehand. I agree that the line can be blurry when looked at from different angles, though there are some differences when looking at the individual stories. Either way, there is a minimalist tradition regarding Imamah that all Shi`a must believe, and then there is a maximized tradition that is either wholly accepted, wholly rejected, or partially accepted - and for some issues a tawaqquf is rational.

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A few more views from Sheikh al-Mufid [r] and Sayyid ibn Tawus [r] to consider, the latter I believe is a medieval era scholar. [One thing to note here is that the first page mentions the more conciliatory attitude of Sharif al-Murtada [r] towards Sunnism, which leads me to question whether he held the view that all of the non-Shi`a were kafir, but that's a completely separate issue from this thread.]

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Edited by al-Irshad

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I will comment about the Imams receiving communication, I have to say, this is pretty much fundamental to our Madhab, there can be no room for doubts, especially for those claiming to refer back to Ahadith.

The Rasul, Nabi, Muhadath classification is backed up by Sahih narrations, this should be enough for those who consider it a Hujiyyah.

أبوعلي الاشعري، عن محمد بن عبدالجبار، عن محمد بن إسماعيل، عن علي ابن النعمان، عن سويد القلا، عن أبي أيوب، عن أبي بصير، عن ابي جعفر (عليه السلام) قال: إن لله عزوجل علمين: علم لا يعلمه إلا هو وعلم علمه ملائكته ورسله، فما علمه ملائكته ورسله (عليهم السلام) فنحن نعلمه

Abu Ali al-Ash'ariy from Muhammad bin Abdil-Jabbar from Muhammad bin Ismail from Ali bin an-Nu'man from Suwayd al-Qala'a from Abi Ayyub from Abi Basir from Abi Ja'far who said:

Indeed for Allah there are two types of knowledge, one type of knowledge is the one which no one knows (about it) except Himself, and the other type of Knowledge is the one which He has taught to his angels and messengers, so whatever the angels and the messengers know (from it) - (so) we know it too.

[sahih li Dhatihi and Suawayd is Thiqah]

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن النضر بن سويد عن يحيى الحلبي، عن ذريح المحاربي قال: قال لي أبوعبدالله (عليه السلام): لو لا أنا نزداد لانفدنا

Muhammad bin Yahya from Ahmad bin Muhammad from al-Husayn bin Said from an-Nadhr bin Suwayd from Yahya al-Halabiy from Dharih al-Muharabiy who said: Abu Abdillah said to me: if it werent that we are increased (in knowledge i.e. by recieving new communication) we would have ran out (exhausted our answers).

[sahih li Dhatihi and Dharih is Thiqah]

علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن رجل، عن محمد بن مسلم قال ذكر المحدث عند أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) فقال: إنه يسمع الصوت ولا يرى الشخص فقلت له: جعلت فداك كيف يعلم أنه كلام الملك؟ قال: إنه يعطي السكينة والوقار حتى يعلم أنه كلام ملك

Ali bin Ibrahim from Muhammad bin Isa from Yunus from a man from Muhammad bin Muslim who said: the Muhadath was mentioned to Abu Abdillah, so he said: he hears the voice but does not see the person, so I (Muhammad) said to him: may I be ransomed for you, how does he know that it is the words of an angel? He said: he is given a calm and tranquility (i.e.when it happens) until he recognizes that it is the words of an angel.

[sahih li Ghayrihi with multiple Shawahid]

Also, I am surprised at those who claim to only follow the Akhbar now showing some rationalist tendencies, while we know that our books are full of Ahadith about the Imam recieving communication, these are the same people who when arguing with others present one Hadith and leave having closed the discussion, why not the same here?

Note that even mountains, bees, the ground, barren mothers, receive communication (whatever you want to call it) so what about the Imams?

Edited by Islamic Salvation

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EDIT: I cut out my post to be replaced with this:

http://www.tashayyu....ams-after-death

و أما أحوالهم بعد الوفاة فإنهم ينقلون من تحت التراب فيسكنون بأجسامهم و أرواحهم جنة الله تعالى فيكونون فيها أحياء يتنعمون إلى يوم الممات يستبشرون بمن يلحق بهم من صالحي أممهم و شيعتهم و يلقونه بالكرامات و ينتظرون من يرد عليهم من أمثال السابقين من ذوي الديانات و إن رسول الله (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) و الأئمة من عترته خاصة لا يخفى عليهم بعد الوفاة أحوال شيعتهم في دار الدنيا بإعلام الله تعالى لهم ذلك حالا بعد حال و يسمعون كلام المناجي لهم في مشاهدهم المكرمة العظام بلطيفة من لطائف الله تعالى بينهم بها من جمهور العباد و تبلغهم المناجاة من بعد كما جاءت به الرواية و هذا مذهب فقهاء الإمامية كافة و حملة الآثار منهم و لست أعرف فيه لمتكلميهم من قبل مقالا و بلغني عن بني نوبخت ره خلاف فيه و لقيت جماعة من المقصرين عن المعرفة ممن ينتمي إلى الإمامة أيضا يأبونه

And as to their sates after death, then they are transferred from (being) under the earth and they dwell, with their bodies and spirits, in a garden of Allah, be He exalted. So they are alive in it, living in enjoyment till the day of death, rejoicing (or, welcoming) whoever follows them (or, is attached to them) from the righteous of their communities and their Shi`a, giving (?) them honors and awaiting whoever comes upon them (?) from the likes of those who preceded from the religions (of the past). And verily the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) and the Imams from his progeny in particular, the states of their Shi`a from the realm of the world is not hidden from them by the notification of Allah, be He exalted. They have that, state after state, and they hear the speech of the supplicant to them in their grand noble shrines by a grace from the graces of Allah, be He exalted. It is announced to them from the mass of the servants and the supplications are conveyed to them as the narrations have come with. And this is the madhhab of all of the fuqaha of the Imamiyya and the bearers of the traditions from them. I do not know of a doctrine regarding it from their prior theologians (i.e. that differs from this). And it has reached me from the Banu Nawbakht, may Allah be pleased with them, a difference in regards to it, and I have encountered a group from those who fall short in recognition (

al-muqassireen `an al-ma`rifa, i.e. who believe about the Imams things below their station, denying their true noble status) who also belong to the Imama that refuse it.

what narrations is he talking about?

Edited by La fata illa Ali

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Brother Lychee,Salam,

Where did you find lack of evidence? for sahw e Nabi(saww) i quoted an Ayat,where Allah is reprimanding jews for preaching and then forgetting,so how could He make His most beloved Prophet(saww) forget? Then for Imams(as) knowing unseen yes there are many references ,but i sufficed to say ''how Imam Ali(as) decided cases where ilm e ghayb was required? now did i need to quote all those cases?i thought they can be found easily on your own.

Angels can be seen by Aimma(as) as well,it has been properly discussed in another thread with all the references,i did n't want to start all over again,it would only end up in derailing thread,start a relevent thread,i shall be more than happy to discuss these things in details,inshAllah.

But quoting too much ,posting long posts other than topic was inappropriate for me,so i sufficed to give precise answers,but for Sadooq comments,i did only try to say there can be any sort of circumstances. I did n't claiim what i am predicting that were the reasons,but avoided speculation about dead alim's intention,as those comments were not even endorsed by any of his students,so who knows?

Regards

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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It does pose difficulties when you come to the issue of the child Imams. But that said, it's not impossible for a child to be a prodigy (Mozart was showing his skill by age 3 and composing at the age of 5...), and it's safe to assume that if anyone would have been especially gifted at a young age, it would have been the future Imams.

But even if we are to admit some more miraculous means of the knowledge being transmitted from Imam to Imam (say at the moment the Imam's father passes away and he becomes the new Imam), ilham seems to go further than this, and refers to a type of "inspiration" the Imam receives to get the right answers and learn matters previously unknown to him when he has need of it. How exactly this is different from wahi I don't know. Believing them to be prophets is kufr of course, so it makes me wonder if "ilham" wasn't just a way of trying to get around that by giving it a different name.

Apart from that problem, the question ilham and such beliefs leave would be things like why do the hadiths mention the books in the Imams possessions and their consulting of them. If they just needed to be "inspired" to know whatever they needed to know, why look it up in a book?

Isn't there a chapter in Al-Kafi that describes the differences between a Messenger, a prophet and a muhadath, which says something like the muhadath hears in dreams but does not see the angels, whereas a prophet sees them.

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(bismillah)

We have mu`tabar ahadith that the Imams [as] can hear the [whispering] of the angels and they receive ilham. There's an entire chapter about the difference between a Messenger, Prophet, and Muhaddath (Imam) in al-Kafi with, I believe, three mu`tabar narrations by isnad. They and the ahadith Islamic_Sal posted fully support one another.

في امان الله

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The hadith doesn't explicitly say what you added in.

I must be honest, i have not read every post in the last two pages (this and the previous) but i have read most and skimmed through almost all, i dont think he discussion (in this thread at least) is regarding the knowledge of the Imam, it is rather about the difference between Ilham and wahi, if any, and what the Imams had access too.

Sis Kaneez Wasalams.

Edited by Islamic Salvation

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Thanks, this part clarifies that the hadith is regarding 'Ilm.

I already believe the Imams (as) receive divine inspiration of some sort, whatever you want to call it, i'm just curious to the nature of this inspiration. This also to some clarifies a previous belief that i had, where the Imams (as) dont know everything from birth (as is sometimes preached by orators) rather they have access to divine [non-prophetic] revelation, and there 'ilm is increased where necessary and when needed.

Interestingly our rafawid brothers are one eyed by that I mean they ignore few ahadees and take others. Let us say the Aimma a.s. read a book and at other times angels spoke to them, or at another time Allah azwj spoke to them, or they narrated a hadees from the Prophet saww without a chain in between or directly from Allah azwj without a chain in between, they all are truthful statements because they spoke according to the intellects of the questioners and they a.s. knew what was i best interest sometimes due to taqiyya or tauriya etc.

The author (may Allah have mercy upon him), quoting Shaykh Abu Ja'far at-Tusi, from his men, from `Abdullah ibn `Ajlan as-Sakuni, said: " I heard Abu Ja`far (as) say: The house of 'Ali and Fatimah is the room of the Messenger of Allah (SA), and the roof of their house is the Arsh of the Lord of the worlds. And at the bottom of their house there is an uncovered opening to the Arsh, the mi'raj of revelation; and the angels bring down revelation upon them in the morning and in the evening and every hour and twinkle of an eye. The angels are in ceaseless groups, some descending and some ascending. And Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, disclosed to Ibrahim the heavens till he saw the Arsh and He increased his seeing power. And Allah increased the seeing power of Muhammad, 'Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan and al-Husayn (as). They used to see the Arsh and they found no roof over their houses except the Arsh.

Their houses were roofed with the Arsh of the Beneficent, and the ascensions of the angels and the Spirit in them, with the permission of their Lord, `for every affair in peace. 'I said: "for every affair'." Ile said: `In every affair.' I said: `Is that revelation?' He said: 'Yes"'

Tafseer Al-Burhan vol. 4, p. 487, "Sura al Qadr", hadith 25

حدثنا أبي، ومحمد بن الحسن رضي الله عنهما قالا: حدثنا سعد بن عبد الله قال: حدثنا محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد، وإبراهيم بن إسحاق بن إبراهيم، عن عبد الله ابن حماد الانصاري، عن صباح المزني، عن حارث بن حصيرة، عن الاصبغ بن نباتة، عن أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام قال: سمعته يقول: إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله علمني ألف باب من الحلال والحرام، ومما كان ومما يكون إلى يوم القيامة، كل باب منها يفتح ألف باب فذلك ألف ألف باب حتى علمت علم المنايا والبلايا وفصل الخطاب.

Abu jafar r.a. said that his father and Muhammad ibn al-Hassan r.a narrated that Sa’ed ibn Abdullah quoted Muhammad ibn Isa ibn Ubayd and Ibrahim ibn, on the authority of Ishaq ibn Ibrahim, on the authority of Abdullah ibn Himad al-Ansari, on the authority of Sabah al-Mazny, on the authority of Harith ibn Hasira, on the authority of Al-Asbaq al-Nobatat that he had heard the Commander of the Faithful Imam Ali a.s. say, “God’s Prophet saww taught me one-thousand gates to the forbidden and the legitimate, what has been and what shall come all the way up until the Resurrection Day. Each of these gates opened up to one-thousand gates, so that they turned into one million gates. Thus, I acquired the knowledge of deaths, calamities and the Divine Decrees.”

(bismillah)

(salam)

In this thread I would like to discuss whether the classical Shia scholars can be considered muqassirs (those who lower the true status of the Imams (as)) from the point of view of current popular Shia beliefs. I will post a little evidence for such a claim, and insha'Allah others can post more, or can argue against that position. In my post I'll be concentrating on Shaykhs Saduq, Mufeed, and Tusi.

Shaykh Saduq:

He is perhaps the most obvious candidate for considering a muqassir, due to his famous beliefs on sahw an-nabi (forgetfulness of the Prophet (pbuh)). However, he had other beliefs that might lead a person today to not recognise him as a mainstream Shia.

Sahw an-nabi:

As for the claim of Abu Ja‘far (Shaykh Saduq), may Allah have mercy upon him, that he who accuses the learned divines of Qum of attributing to the Imams less than their due, should be stigmatized as an extremist. In fact, the charging of this group with such attribution is not a sign of excess, since amongst those who are mentioned as learned divines and scholars, there are many who accuse the bona fide scholars of attributing less than their due to the Imams, be they from Qum or from any other country or any other people.

We have heard a narration, the meaning of which is plain, related to the authority of Abu Ja`far Muhhammad ibn al-Hasan ibn al-Walid" (one of Saduq's teachers), may Allah have mercy upon him, and the interpretation in favour of taqsir is inescapable. This is what is related on his authority: "The first degree of excess is to deny that the Prophet and the Imãms were ever fallible (sahw)", Then if this was indeed related by him, he in fact attributes less than their due to the Imams, and yet he is one of the divines of Qum.

(Shaykh Mufeed's Tashih al-I`tiqad)

Description of the Imams:

Sheikh Sadooq said, “The Imam is born. He also has children. He gets ill and he gets cured. He eats and drinks. He urinates and defecates. He gets married. He sleeps. He forgets and he makes mistakes. [337] He gets happy and sad. He laughs and cries. He lives and then dies. He is buried and the people go to visit his shrine. He is resurrected and questioned. He is rewarded and honored. He intercedes. There are two important signs for him: his knowledge and the fulfillment of his prayers. He has heard the news that he gives about the events in the future from his grandfathers from the Prophet of God (s). The Prophet of God (s) has heard them from Gabriel. Gabriel has heard them from the Almighty God.

[337] The author has interpreted this in Man La Yahdharohu al-Faqih as follows, When for some reason God wills the Imam to forget or make a mistake, the Imam himself will immediately inform others about it so that no one gets misled." Of course, this is what the author and his master Ibn al-Walid believe, not all the great Sheikhs. They say forgetting and making mistakes are in contradiction with innocence or “Ismat” which is the criteria for being the Imam. Thus they either interpret or reject all such cases.

(uyun akhbar al-ReDa, vol 1, commentary on hadith 19:2, p.400)

http://www.maaref-fo...glish/index.htm

Powers of the Imams:

Now (undoubtedly) Allah has delegated matters concerning religion to His Prophet and He, the Mighty and Glorious, says: "And whatsoever the Messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it) " [59:7]. And this (that is, religious authority) has also been delegated to the Imams.

(I'tiqadqtu 'l-Imamiyyah)

http://www.shiachat....and-delegation/

Third Shahada in adhan:

The Mufawwida (a group of the ghulat who claimed that Allah created the Ma`sumeen then delegated to them the responsibility and power to create the universe and be the ones providing its sustenance), may Allah curse them, have forged narrations and added in the adhan “MuHammad wa aali MuHammad khayru ‘l-bariyyah” two times, and in some of their reports after “ashhadu anna MuHammadan rasoolullaah” “ashhadu anna `Aliyyan waliyullaah” two times, and some of them that narrate in place of that “ashhadu annna `Aliyyan ameer al-mu’mineen haqqa” two times. There is no doubt that `Ali is the Wali of Allah, and that he is the Commander of the Believers truly, and that Muhammad and the Family of Muhammad are the best of people, however that is not from the original adhan. And I have only mentioned this that thereby may be known that those who have been accused of concocting (the doctrine of) tafwid and have insinuated themselves in our ranks may be known.

(Man La Yahduruhu al-Faqih)

http://www.tashayyu....hahada-in-adhan

Shaykh Mufeed:

Powers of the Imams:

The adherents of the doctrine of delegation (al-Mufawwidah) are a group of extremists who are distinguished from the others by their peculiar claim that though the Imãms are created, originated beings, and not eternal, yet they ascribe to them creation and sustaining. Also, they maintained that Allãh, the Exalted, created them and ceased to create, delegating to them the creation of the world and what lay therein.

[...]

Indeed, it is a sufficient sign of excess to claim that the Imãms are not created beings, and that they are divine and eternal, since the only logical conclusion of this assertion is excess; that the Imãms are the creators of bodies, originators of substances, and bring into existence accidents which are beyond human power. We need no more than this to judge or to ascertain their position without the signs which Abū Ja‘far, holds the marks of excess.

(Tashih al-I`tiqad)

http://www.shiachat....and-delegation/

Description of the Imams:

And I say that the messengers from humanity of Allah, be He exalted, and His prophets and the Imams from his khulafa are contingent created beings, afflictions are attached to them and pleasures occur for them, their bodies are made to grow by food and decreased by the passing of time, death is put (?) for them, and passing away is permitted upon them. And the consensus of the people of tawhid is upon this doctrine. And those belonging to (the heresy of) tafwid (those who believe Allah created the Imams and then delegated the ruling of creation and giving sustenance to the universe to them) and the categories of the ghulat (the exaggerators of the status of the Imams) have opposed us in it.

(awail-al-maqalat)

http://www.tashayyu....ams-after-death

Martyrdom of the Imams (as):

As for what Abu Ja`far (Shaykh Saduq) mentions of the death of our Prophet and the Imams by poison or murder, some of this is confirmed as fact and some not. What is confirmed is that the Commander of the Believers, al-Hasan and al-Husayn, peace be upon them, departed from this world by murder, none of them died a natural death. Musa ibn Ja`far, peace be upon him, was killed by poison. It is highly probable that ar-Rida (`Ali ibn Musa) was poisoned, yet this cannot be confirmed. As for the others, there is no justification for the claim that they were either poisoned or murdered or killed through persecution, since the reports concerning this matter are extremely confused and there are no means of proving it definitely.

(Tashih al-I`tiqad)

He (Imam al-Jawad) died in the month of Dhul al-Qa`da in the same year. It was said that he died as a result of poisoning but in my view no report has established that, and I bear witness to that.

(Kitab al-Irshad)

Shaykh Tusi:

On creation:

The intended meaning of creation (in this verse) is taqdir (ordainment) apart from ihdath (generation). It is said in the explanation that he made from clay as the shape of a bat, and blew thereon and so it became a bird. And the meaning of “I blow thereon”, meaning: I blow the soul (ar-ruh) in it, and it is a subtle body like the wind. And it is other than the life (al-hayat), for the body is only made alive by what Allah تعالى does in it of life, for bodies – all of them – are alike, Allah makes to live from them whatever He wills. And he only conditioned his saying of “and it shall become a bird by the permission of Allah” and did not condition his saying of “I will create for you out of clay as though it were the form of a bird” with mention of the permission of Allah so that he might remind by the mention of the permission (al-idhn) that it is from the act of Allah apart from `Isa. But as to the formation and the blowing, then it was his (`Isa’s) act, for it is not of what enters under the determined (maqdur) of qadr. But the transformation of the inanimate body into a living creature is not like that, for no one is able to do that apart from Him تعالى. And his saying “and I will bring the dead to life by the permission of Allah” is on a figurative sense in adjoining it to himself, while its reality is that he would pray to Allah to revive the dead, so Allah would revive them and they would live by His permission.

(Tafsir at-tibyan)

http://www.tashayyu....yu/aal-imran/49

Of course, a common belief is that the Imams (as) have the 'power' to create and revive the dead, just like `Isa (as) had, but we see that Shaykh Tusi doesn't appear to believe in any such 'powers'.

Third Shahada in adhan:

And as to what has been narrated from the odd reports of the saying “ashhadu anna `Aliyyan waliyullaah wa aali MuHammad khayru ‘l-bariyyah”, then it is from that which is not acted upon in the adhan and the iqama. So whoever acts upon it is in error.

http://www.tashayyu....hahada-in-adhan

More to come, insha'Allah.

salamalaikum

Indeed sahu of the 14 aimma masoomeen a.s.is according to the will of Allah azwj and their sahu is deen for us, i.e. if they had not committed sahu by the order of Allah azwj how would it have been hujja upon us. For e.g. Keeping someone to remind your of how many rakats you prayed. The Imam a.s. did it so we can do that too incase of fear that we might forget.

The problem with you guys is you are mixing things up.

You say ahadees is hujja for us?

The next moment you bring up opinions of classical scholars as hujja?

And sometimes you bring opinon of a Modern against a classical scholar?

And sometimes you put up all ayats of quran together to prove a baseless point?

Get a life bro and first decide what you guys really believe in rather than making Fitna and creating doubts for the weak in Imaan. I doubt if you knew what Taqiyya is and how aimma a.s.answered people according to intellects.

Let me have the pleasure of introducing you to an example of speaking according to intellects and I wont feel sorry if something happens to you.

On the authority of Imam as-Sadiq (SA) who said: "The Jews inquired of the Messenger of Allah (SA) about the lineage [nasab] of Allah, the Exalted, and said: `Tell us your Lord's lineage [nasab].' The Prophet remained three days giving no reply. Then it was revealed to him: `Say: He is Allah, the One,' till the end."

Usulul Kafi, vol. 1, p. 122, "Book of at-Tauhid", ch. on "Lineage", hadith 1

Now try to digest this

Muhammad ibn Ya'qub, on the authority of Abu `Abdullah [as-Sadiq] (as), concerning the performance of the Messenger of Allah (SA) his salat in the heaven, in the hadith of al-Isra', said: "...Then Allah, the Most High, revealed to him: Read, O Muhammad, the lineage [nisbat] of your Lord, the Blessed and Most High: `He is Allah, the One. He is Besought by all. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And none is comparable to Him.' This is in the first rak`ah. Then, Allah, the Exalted and Most High, revealed to him: Read: `All praise is for Allah: He read it as he did first. Then Allah revealed to him: Read: `We revealed it' which is your lineage [nisbat] and your offspring's till the Day of Resurrection."

Tafseer Al-Burhan, vol. 4, p. 487, "Suratul Qadr", hadith 22

Edited by siraatoaliyinhaqqun

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Another hadith on this subject, I think reliable in isnad, could be useful.

[6815] 2 ـ وعنه ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن حماد ، عن منصور ابن حازم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : لما هبط جبرئيل ( عليه السلام ) بالأذان على رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) كان رأسه في حجر علي ( عليه السلام ) ، فأذن جبرئيل وأقام ، فلما انتبه رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) قال : يا علي ، سمعت ؟ قال : نعم ، قال : حفظت ؟ قال : نعم ، قال : ادع بلالاً فعلمه ، فدعا علي ( عليه السلام ) بلالاً فعلمه.

ورواه الصدوق بإسناده عن منصور بن حازم .

ورواه الشيخ بإسناده عن علي بن إبراهيم ، مثله.

2 – And from him from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hammad from Mansur b. Hazim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: When Jibra’il descended with the adhan upon the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله, his head was upon the lap of `Ali عليه السلام. So Jibra’il called the adhan and the iqama. So when the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله regained consciousness, he said: O `Ali, you heard? He said: Yes. He said: You have memorized (it)? He said: Yes. He said: Call for Bilal, and teach him. So `Ali عليه السلام called for Bilal and he taught him.

And as-Saduq narrated it by his isnad from Mansur b. Hazim.

And the Shaykh narrated it by his isnad from `Ali b. Ibrahim likewise.

http://www.tashayyu....iqama/chapter-1

Edited by Qa'im

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I'm curious if anyone has statements from the classical scholars on the perpetual intercession of the hujja by which Allah (swt) gives sustenance to humanity, whether or not they believed this. There is a hadith I saw on this, but it'd be nice to see their views.

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Another hadith on this subject, I think reliable in isnad, could be useful.

[6815] 2 ـ وعنه ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن حماد ، عن منصور ابن حازم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : لما هبط جبرئيل ( عليه السلام ) بالأذان على رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) كان رأسه في حجر علي ( عليه السلام ) ، فأذن جبرئيل وأقام ، فلما انتبه رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) قال : يا علي ، سمعت ؟ قال : نعم ، قال : حفظت ؟ قال : نعم ، قال : ادع بلالاً فعلمه ، فدعا علي ( عليه السلام ) بلالاً فعلمه.

ورواه الصدوق بإسناده عن منصور بن حازم .

ورواه الشيخ بإسناده عن علي بن إبراهيم ، مثله.

2 – And from him from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Hammad from Mansur b. Hazim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: When Jibra’il descended with the adhan upon the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله, his head was upon the lap of `Ali عليه السلام. So Jibra’il called the adhan and the iqama. So when the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله regained consciousness, he said: O `Ali, you heard? He said: Yes. He said: You have memorized (it)? He said: Yes. He said: Call for Bilal, and teach him. So `Ali عليه السلام called for Bilal and he taught him.

And as-Saduq narrated it by his isnad from Mansur b. Hazim.

And the Shaykh narrated it by his isnad from `Ali b. Ibrahim likewise.

http://www.tashayyu....iqama/chapter-1

And hears from Allah azwj likewise

28

) ﻪﻴﻠﻋ مﻼﺴﻟا ( ، ﻪﻧأ لﺎﻗ ﻲﻓ ﺚﻳﺪﺤﻟا يﺬﻟا يور ﻪﻴﻓ : نإ نﺎﻤﻠﺳ نﺎﻛ ًﺎﺛّﺪﺤﻣ لﺎﻗ : ﻪﻧإ نﺎﻛ ﺎﺛﺪﺤﻣ ﻦﻋ ﻪﻣﺎﻣإ ﻻ ﻦﻋ ﻪﺑر ، ﻪﻧﻷ ﻻ ثﺪﺤﻳ ﻦﻋ ﷲ ﻻإ ﺔﺠﺤﻟا . ] 33443 [ 28ـ ﻦﻋو ﺮﻫﺎﻃ ﻦﺑ ﻰﺴﻴﻋ قارﻮﻟا ﻲﺸﻜﻟا ، ﻦﻋ ﺮﻔﻌﺟ ﻦﺑ ﺪﻤﺣأ ﻦﺑا بﻮﻳأ يﺪﻨﻗﺮﻤﺴﻟا ، ﻦﻋ ﻲﻠﻋ ﻦﺑ ﺪﻤﺤﻣ ﻦﺑ عﺎﺠﺷ ، ﻦﻋ ﺪﻤﺣأ ﻦﺑ دﺎﻤﺣ يزوﺮﻤﻟا ، ﻦﻋ ق – And from Tahir b. `Isa al-Warraq al-Kashshi from Ja`far b. Ahmad b. Ayyub as-Samarqandi from `Ali b. Muhammad b. Shuja` from Ahmad b. Hammad al-Marwazi from as-Sadiq ﻪﻴﻠﻋ مﻼﺴﻟا , that he said in the hadith in which narrated: Verily Salman was a muhaddath (one narrated to). He said: He was a muhaddath from his Imam, not from his Lord, for no one but the Hujja narrates from Allah.

*******.org

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