Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Haydar Husayn

Were The Classical Scholars Muqassirs?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

He seems to be judging the beliefs of scholars based on the modern beliefs. Whereas an alternative to this perspective would be: http://islamic-4foru...showtopic=16110

Remove the 4 from the hyperlink.

From the translation of that article:

FIRSTLY:

"Who are better, the Imams or the Prophets?" what is famous and popular among the scholars of the past is that the Prophets are better, this question was aimed at al-Mufid and he said the Prophets are better, until sheikh Hasan bin Suleiman al-Helli (died 802 AH) came along and tried to refute him and said that the Imams are better and this quickly became widely accepted in the 9th century until today and it is an idea by a single person and was not popular.

Anyone have a reference for this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This would be a problem if and only if there was no way for him to correct his mistake that he committed out of forgetfulness. That's not the case. In fact, an opportunity where he (pbuh) does forget and then corrects himself in the best way possible only points to his isma, not the other way around.

Then marjas and all present day ulema are less knowledgeable than you who spend lives fighting with sunnis then He could n't err,could n't forget.

And one who can forget whats the guarantee He 'll get a chance to make correction?

Where does Isma remains? when one devising laws of sharia was making errors,He could make someone'salat invalid(nauzbillah) even if He make corrections,and so on,very pathetic view of Risaalat it is.

From the translation of that article:

Anyone have a reference for this?

You are asking for reference,or refutation?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Additional reading perhaps:

If sahw e Nabi(saww) can be accepted (nauzbillah),then whats the guarantee of whole Prophethood?

Please read the ahadeeth in the link that I gave. The Imam himself not only affirmed sahw in the saheeh ahadeeth, but explained and justified it. Your question is therefore irrelevant to sahw an-nabi, as sahw an-nabi was caused by Allah; it was caused to teach the Ummah how to deal with ending your salat early.

Even if there is a Hadees that is the contradiction to Quran,in which Allah says ''He does n't stir His lips except what i permit''

so how He got sahw? its contradicting Quran,so has to be rejected,no matter what the ilm ul rijaal says,and who narrated it?

A hadeeth that irreconcilably contradicts the Quran is discarded. The ahadeeth on sahw an-nabi do not seem to contradict the Quran. Even if they did, reconciliation would be within the realms of ease.

Anyone have a reference for this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry sis, this isn't the first time i have failed to comprehend your logic.

Firstly those scholars have ruled out the possibility of forgetting in matters of wahi, just day-to-day mundane matters.

Also, he is protected, from uttering speech other than that which God desires for him (if we take your understanding of the Ayah to be the only correct one).

I don't think his being forgetful is contradictory to him speaking out of his desires.

However, i do believe he needs to be masum, even in those day to day matters, and i do not accept that he could forget, but we can't use what we feel/or prefer to believe when it comes to academic discussions. I also completely agree that he needs to be protected from anything which can affect his reliability, otherwise it could affect the purpose of sending him.

We don't have to see,who is saying we have to see,what is being said.

Do you agree Prophet(saww) was superior to Jibrael(as),or you don't?

If He was,then can you tell could angels forget?

You would say no,they are entrusted with commands of 'Wahi',then how the one to whom it is delivered can forget?

Is His Isma lower than angels even?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

Then marjas and all present day ulema are less knowledgeable than you who spend lives fighting with sunnis then He could n't err,could n't forget.

And one who can forget whats the guarantee He 'll get a chance to make correction?

Where does Isma remains? when one devising laws of sharia was making errors,He could make someone'salat invalid(nauzbillah) even if He make corrections,and so on,very pathetic view of Risaalat it is.

If you read the ahaadeeth on this matter for al-Nabi [sawa], he was forced to do this. This does not invalidate the concept of `ismah or Risalah. Do not insult the views of our past scholars

You are asking for reference,or refutation?

Reference.

Ýí ÇãÇä Çááå

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Additional reading perhaps: http://www.shiachat....ost__p__1959043

Please read the ahadeeth in the link that I gave. The Imam himself not only affirmed sahw in the saheeh ahadeeth, but explained and justified it. Your question is therefore irrelevant to sahw an-nabi, as sahw an-nabi was caused by Allah; it was caused to teach the Ummah how to deal with ending your salat early.

A hadeeth that irreconcilably contradicts the Quran is discarded. The ahadeeth on sahw an-nabi do not seem to contradict the Quran. Even if they did, reconciliation would be within the realms of ease.

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__1980835

If we start taking anything against Ismah e Rasool(saww) with anything attributed to the names of Aimma(as),then there are Ahadees which say Quran is distorted,believe them too.

Then what remains authentic in Islam? neither Risalat is intact,nor Book is intact? then what else is?

Oh yes i know only classical texts,and ilm ul rijaal,there can be no sahw in them.

(bismillah)

If you read the ahaadeeth on this matter for al-Nabi [sawa], he was forced to do this. This does not invalidate the concept of `ismah or Risalah. Do not insult the views of our past scholars

Reference.

في امان الله

You too don't insult the views of present scholar,can you tell me name of any marja,who endorses this view?

You can't tolerate the insult of 'old' scholars,we can't tolerate the insult of our Prophet(saww),He was forced to err,what a logic?

And funny thing,i asked Hayder if he was asking for reference or refutation for the thing somebody else has quoted,which was not agreeable to me,so i asked him,in which context he asked,and you without properly reading replied like he was asking me for reference,so you tried to show haste in your response.Ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one here has insulted any scholar. Rather, people are presenting alternate views held by scholars and discussing them whereas you are throwing statements like "what a pathetic view of Risaalat it is", which is an insult to those who hold such views.

We don't have to see,who is saying we have to see,what is being said.

Do you agree Prophet(saww) was superior to Jibrael(as),or you don't?

If He was,then can you tell could angels forget?

You would say no,they are entrusted with commands of 'Wahi',then how the one to whom it is delivered can forget?

Is His Isma lower than angels even?

Do you even think for a second before writing? That comparison is irrelevant because we know that the angels don't have a choice in worshipping and obeying Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

Edited by al-Irshad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

You too don't insult the views of present scholar,can you tell me name of any marja,who endorses this view?

You can't tolerate the insult of 'old' scholars,we can't tolerate the insult of our Prophet(saww),He was forced to err,what a logic?

I did not insult anyone. If you feel disagreeing with you or the "majority" is an insult, that is your own.

And funny thing,i asked Hayder if he was asking for reference or refutation for the thing somebody else has quoted,which was not agreeable to me,so i asked him,in which context he asked,and you without properly reading replied like he was asking me for reference,so you tried to show haste in your response.Ridiculous. :rolleyes:

I asked for reference cause I knew he was asking for references. If your refutation is something "logical" it won't convince most people in this thread - the jamhoor here rely on akhbar.

في امان الله

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one here has insulted any scholar. Rather, people are presenting alternate views held by scholars and discussing them whereas you are throwing statements like "what a pathetic view of Risaalat it is", which is an insult to those who hold such views.

Do you even think for a second before writing? That comparison is irrelevant because we know that the angels don't have a choice in worshipping and obeying Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

Then what about Allah when He start referring angels as helpers along with momineen,both of them are different in matters of choice,still the analogy is being made,so did i,in matter of ismah,not action.

You need to take a whole minute not second to think what are you giving as refutation?

You must ask Allah,when He refers to both of them side by side,though one is helping out of will,the other is bound,so what was the point of mentioning their 'powerless' action.?

(bismillah)

I did not insult anyone. If you feel disagreeing with you or the "majority" is an insult, that is your own.

I asked for reference cause I knew he was asking for references. If your refutation is something "logical" it won't convince most people in this thread - the jamhoor here rely on akhbar.

في امان الله

Oh man he was not asking me for reference,read the old posts again.

Something was posted about Sheikh Mufeed's views,so he asked that person for a reference,why should i bring?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then what about Allah when He start referring angels as helpers along with momineen,both of them are different in matters of choice,still the analogy is being made,so did i,in matter of ismah,not action.

You need to take a whole minute not second to think what are you giving as refutation?

You must ask Allah,when He refers to both of them side by side,though one is helping out of will,the other is bound,so what was the point of mentioning their 'powerless' action.?

Sister, if you want me to consider something, please post the verse or hadith. Going off what you've said here, what analogy? Allah (swt) merely mentions the angels and believers as helpers in the same instance, and what exactly am I supposed to read out of that? All that tells me is that the angels and believers enact the Will of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, albeit differently because angels don't have a choice in doing so while believers do. Do give me the instance that you're referring to first.

I refuted the basic premise of your previous argument comparing the Prophet (pbuh) to Jibrael (as).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sister, if you want me to consider something, please post the verse or hadith. Going off what you've said here, what analogy? Allah (swt) merely mentions the angels and believers as helpers in the same instance, and what exactly am I supposed to read out of that? All that tells me is that the angels and believers enact the Will of Allah سبحانه وتعالى, albeit differently because angels don't have a choice in doing so while believers do. Do give me the instance that you're referring to first.

I refuted the basic premise of your previous argument comparing the Prophet (pbuh) to Jibrael (as).

I meant that inspit of difference in action Allah gave examples of both,though the powers are not same,so when i compared then how comes the comparison of power comes into action?

InshAllah,i will try to find the verse number i was referring to,it was most probably ,not from Al-Najm,secondly,as i said there are narrations saying Quran is distorted,so you will ask for reference too? which should prove that no its not.?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I meant that inspit of difference in action Allah gave examples of both,though the powers are not same,so when i compared then how comes the comparison of power comes into action?

InshAllah,i will try to find the verse number i was referring to,it was most probably ,not from Al-Najm,secondly,as i said there are narrations saying Quran is distorted,so you will ask for reference too? which should prove that no its not.?

The last part of your post implies that, at the very least, there is an irreconcilable difference between what you and I consider to be proof and our thought processes. So, I'll save my response to you, and someone else can try if they so choose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't Allah (SWT) reprimand the Jews by saying: "Do you enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (to practice it) yourselves, and yet you study the Scripture? Will you not understand? (Quran 2:44)" Clearly, a Prophet CANNOT order a layman to perform prayer on a timely basis, when the Prophet himself forgets to pray, and when he remembers, he prays without ablution (Wudu) (as Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic version, v1, p123; and v1, p37)!!! Purified be the Representatives of Allah (SWT) from such false accusations!

Allah is condemning jews for forgetfulness,whereas making His most beloved Prophet(saww) forgetful(nauzbillah),wow what a thought?

Even i wanted to save my response but then i thought there would be people reading,so they may not be deviated.

Reference. If I wanted a refutation, I would have asked for a ... refutation.

ok,but the brother above thought something else,and kept insisting me for reference. Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

(bismillah)

Regarding the ranking of the scholars, based off of SaHeeH hadeeth, the Imaams are not upto the level/rank of the Prophets, rather they were compared to non-Prophets, such as Dhu'l Qarnayn and al-Khidr.

Here is the most explicit SaHeeH narration regarding this, this hadeeth has an impeccable chain. The wording used here is manzilah (status/rank).

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنِ ابْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ بُرَيْدِ بْنِ مُعَاوِيَةَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ وَ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ قُلْتُ لَهُ مَا مَنْزِلَتُكُمْ وَ مَنْ تُشْبِهُونَ مِمَّنْ مَضَى قَالَ صَاحِبُ مُوسَى وَ ذُو الْقَرْنَيْنِ كَانَا عَالِمَيْنِ وَ لَمْ يَكُونَا نَبِيَّيْنِ

From Burayd b. Mu`āwiyah from Abī Ja`far and Abī `Abd Allāh said, I said to him, ‘what is your status/rank, and who do you resemble from those in the past?’ He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Companion of Mūsa (al-Khiḍr) and Dhul Qarnayn, they were two scholars and they were not Prophets’

Source:

al-Kulayni, al-Kaafi, vol. 1, pg. 269, hadeeth # 5

Grading:

al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)

--> Mir'aat al-`Uqool, vol. 3, pg. 159

There are many other hadeeth calling Imaam `Alee (as) as an `Aalim (scholar), and others comparing him to Dhu'l Qarnayn and al-Khidr.

Then you have this shawaahid hadeeth that is Da`eef (Weak), where Imaam al-Rida (as) was asked "Who is superior (afDal), the Prophet or the Wasi? He (as) said: 'No, rather the Prophet!'

فقال له أبو الحسن الرضا ع يا هذا أيهما أفضل النبي أو الوصي فقال لا بل النبي

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

(bismillah)

Regarding the ranking of the scholars, based off of SaHeeH hadeeth, the Imaams are not upto the level/rank of the Prophets, rather they were compared to non-Prophets, such as Dhu'l Qarnayn and al-Khidr.

Here is the most explicit SaHeeH narration regarding this. The wording used here is manzilah (status/rank).

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنِ ابْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ بُرَيْدِ بْنِ مُعَاوِيَةَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ وَ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ قُلْتُ لَهُ مَا مَنْزِلَتُكُمْ وَ مَنْ تُشْبِهُونَ مِمَّنْ مَضَى قَالَ صَاحِبُ مُوسَى وَ ذُو الْقَرْنَيْنِ كَانَا عَالِمَيْنِ وَ لَمْ يَكُونَا نَبِيَّيْنِ

From Burayd b. Mu`āwiyah from Abī Ja`far and Abī `Abd Allāh said, I said to him, ‘what is your status/rank, and who do you resemble from those in the past?’ He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Companion of Mūsa (al-Khiḍr) and Dhul Qarnayn, they were two scholars and there not Prophets’

Source:

al-Kulayni, al-Kaafi, vol. 1, pg. 269, hadeeth # 5

Grading:

al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)

--> Mir'aat al-`Uqool, vol. 3, pg. 159

There are many other hadeeth calling Imaam `Alee (as) as an `Aalim (scholar), and others comparing him to Dhu'l Qarnayn and al-Khidr.

Then you have this shawaahid hadeeth that is Da`eef (Weak), where Imaam al-Rida (as) was asked "Who is superior (afDal), the Prophet or the Wasi? He (as) said: 'No, rather the Prophet!'

فقال له أبو الحسن الرضا ع يا هذا أيهما أفضل النبي أو الوصي فقال لا بل النبي

(salam)

Why was Lady Mariam(as) asked to go out at the time of delivery ,from Mosque,and Ali(as)'s mother gave Him birth inside the holiest Mosque?

Prophet(saww) that if Ali(as) was not to be there,there could have been no compatible to Fatima(as) since Adam till the day of judgement,what does that imply?

Who was superior then?

Ok, back to the topic. Kaniz e Zahra, surely Saduq had read the Qur'an. So if his belief on sahw an-nabi could be refuted as easily as you claim, then don't you think that is an example of taqsir?

Hayder i don't believe in labelling people,though i strongly disagree with you most of the times,but did you find me calling you names even?(though i want to) :P

So how can we say something about dead scholars,there can be things attributed to them afterwards,who knows?

Injeel,Torah,could be changed,these were only words of fallibles.There can be anything,we can't speculate with confirmation,it can be taqqiyah ,so who are we to label them?

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...