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Haydar Husayn

Were The Classical Scholars Muqassirs?

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Sister, if you want me to consider something, please post the verse or hadith. Going off what you've said here, what analogy? Allah (swt) merely mentions the angels and believers as helpers in the same instance, and what exactly am I supposed to read out of that? All that tells me is that the angels and believers enact the Will of Allah سبحانه وتعالى, albeit differently because angels don't have a choice in doing so while believers do. Do give me the instance that you're referring to first.

I refuted the basic premise of your previous argument comparing the Prophet (pbuh) to Jibrael (as).

I meant that inspit of difference in action Allah gave examples of both,though the powers are not same,so when i compared then how comes the comparison of power comes into action?

InshAllah,i will try to find the verse number i was referring to,it was most probably ,not from Al-Najm,secondly,as i said there are narrations saying Quran is distorted,so you will ask for reference too? which should prove that no its not.?

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I meant that inspit of difference in action Allah gave examples of both,though the powers are not same,so when i compared then how comes the comparison of power comes into action?

InshAllah,i will try to find the verse number i was referring to,it was most probably ,not from Al-Najm,secondly,as i said there are narrations saying Quran is distorted,so you will ask for reference too? which should prove that no its not.?

The last part of your post implies that, at the very least, there is an irreconcilable difference between what you and I consider to be proof and our thought processes. So, I'll save my response to you, and someone else can try if they so choose.

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Didn't Allah (SWT) reprimand the Jews by saying: "Do you enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (to practice it) yourselves, and yet you study the Scripture? Will you not understand? (Quran 2:44)" Clearly, a Prophet CANNOT order a layman to perform prayer on a timely basis, when the Prophet himself forgets to pray, and when he remembers, he prays without ablution (Wudu) (as Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic version, v1, p123; and v1, p37)!!! Purified be the Representatives of Allah (SWT) from such false accusations!

Allah is condemning jews for forgetfulness,whereas making His most beloved Prophet(saww) forgetful(nauzbillah),wow what a thought?

Even i wanted to save my response but then i thought there would be people reading,so they may not be deviated.

Reference. If I wanted a refutation, I would have asked for a ... refutation.

ok,but the brother above thought something else,and kept insisting me for reference. Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Regarding the ranking of the scholars, based off of SaHeeH hadeeth, the Imaams are not upto the level/rank of the Prophets, rather they were compared to non-Prophets, such as Dhu'l Qarnayn and al-Khidr.

Here is the most explicit SaHeeH narration regarding this, this hadeeth has an impeccable chain. The wording used here is manzilah (status/rank).

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنِ ابْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ بُرَيْدِ بْنِ مُعَاوِيَةَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ وَ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ قُلْتُ لَهُ مَا مَنْزِلَتُكُمْ وَ مَنْ تُشْبِهُونَ مِمَّنْ مَضَى قَالَ صَاحِبُ مُوسَى وَ ذُو الْقَرْنَيْنِ كَانَا عَالِمَيْنِ وَ لَمْ يَكُونَا نَبِيَّيْنِ

From Burayd b. Mu`āwiyah from Abī Ja`far and Abī `Abd Allāh said, I said to him, ‘what is your status/rank, and who do you resemble from those in the past?’ He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Companion of Mūsa (al-Khiḍr) and Dhul Qarnayn, they were two scholars and they were not Prophets’

Source:

al-Kulayni, al-Kaafi, vol. 1, pg. 269, hadeeth # 5

Grading:

al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)

--> Mir'aat al-`Uqool, vol. 3, pg. 159

There are many other hadeeth calling Imaam `Alee (as) as an `Aalim (scholar), and others comparing him to Dhu'l Qarnayn and al-Khidr.

Then you have this shawaahid hadeeth that is Da`eef (Weak), where Imaam al-Rida (as) was asked "Who is superior (afDal), the Prophet or the Wasi? He (as) said: 'No, rather the Prophet!'

فقال له أبو الحسن الرضا ع يا هذا أيهما أفضل النبي أو الوصي فقال لا بل النبي

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Regarding the ranking of the scholars, based off of SaHeeH hadeeth, the Imaams are not upto the level/rank of the Prophets, rather they were compared to non-Prophets, such as Dhu'l Qarnayn and al-Khidr.

Here is the most explicit SaHeeH narration regarding this. The wording used here is manzilah (status/rank).

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنِ ابْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ بُرَيْدِ بْنِ مُعَاوِيَةَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ وَ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ قُلْتُ لَهُ مَا مَنْزِلَتُكُمْ وَ مَنْ تُشْبِهُونَ مِمَّنْ مَضَى قَالَ صَاحِبُ مُوسَى وَ ذُو الْقَرْنَيْنِ كَانَا عَالِمَيْنِ وَ لَمْ يَكُونَا نَبِيَّيْنِ

From Burayd b. Mu`āwiyah from Abī Ja`far and Abī `Abd Allāh said, I said to him, ‘what is your status/rank, and who do you resemble from those in the past?’ He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Companion of Mūsa (al-Khiḍr) and Dhul Qarnayn, they were two scholars and there not Prophets’

Source:

al-Kulayni, al-Kaafi, vol. 1, pg. 269, hadeeth # 5

Grading:

al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is Hasan (Good)

--> Mir'aat al-`Uqool, vol. 3, pg. 159

There are many other hadeeth calling Imaam `Alee (as) as an `Aalim (scholar), and others comparing him to Dhu'l Qarnayn and al-Khidr.

Then you have this shawaahid hadeeth that is Da`eef (Weak), where Imaam al-Rida (as) was asked "Who is superior (afDal), the Prophet or the Wasi? He (as) said: 'No, rather the Prophet!'

فقال له أبو الحسن الرضا ع يا هذا أيهما أفضل النبي أو الوصي فقال لا بل النبي

(salam)

Why was Lady Mariam(as) asked to go out at the time of delivery ,from Mosque,and Ali(as)'s mother gave Him birth inside the holiest Mosque?

Prophet(saww) that if Ali(as) was not to be there,there could have been no compatible to Fatima(as) since Adam till the day of judgement,what does that imply?

Who was superior then?

Ok, back to the topic. Kaniz e Zahra, surely Saduq had read the Qur'an. So if his belief on sahw an-nabi could be refuted as easily as you claim, then don't you think that is an example of taqsir?

Hayder i don't believe in labelling people,though i strongly disagree with you most of the times,but did you find me calling you names even?(though i want to) :P

So how can we say something about dead scholars,there can be things attributed to them afterwards,who knows?

Injeel,Torah,could be changed,these were only words of fallibles.There can be anything,we can't speculate with confirmation,it can be taqqiyah ,so who are we to label them?

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Hayder i don't believe in labelling people,though i strongly disagree with you most of the times,but did you find me calling you names even?(though i want to) :P

So how can we say something about dead scholars,there can be things attributed to them afterwards,who knows,Injeel,Torah,could be changed,these were only words of fallibles.There can be anything,we can't speculate with confirmation,it can be taqqiyah ,so who are we to label them?

Ok, forget about any names. Speaking generally, if someone had the views that were mentioned in this thread as attributed to those scholars, could they be considered a muqassir?

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Here's one more view to add to the plethora of views already mentioned here, perhaps on a different issue. Abu Jafar ibn Qiba al-Razi, like Fadl ibn Shadhan, believed that the Imam's (as) knowledge was solely acquired through transmission or derivative of the Quran. In other words, they did not admit supernatural transmission of knowledge or pseudo-revelation as possibilities for them. I think the contemporary scholars generally admit the possibilities of the latter for the Imams (as).

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Ok, forget about any names. Speaking generally, if someone had the views that were mentioned in this thread as attributed to those scholars, could they be considered a muqassir?

We should logically refute those views not by giving such provocative response as you are ghaali,you are muqassir,the next person can only be disillusioned,not convinced.

Here's one more view to add to the plethora of views already mentioned here, perhaps on a different issue. Abu Jafar ibn Qiba al-Razi, like Fadl ibn Shadhan, believed that the Imam's (as) knowledge was solely acquired through transmission or derivative of the Quran. In other words, they did not admit supernatural transmission of knowledge or pseudo-revelation as possibilities for them. I think the contemporary scholars generally admit the possibilities of the latter for the Imams (as).

There was a tradition in Ayun Akhbar e Raza(as) that ''there is a pillar of light from where Imam(as) gets to know the ghaib''

now i don't know the pillar thing but a classical one is quoting it,and when Imam(as) called themselves Eye of God,was eye so limited in viewing the affairs of the world?

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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We should logically refute those views not by giving such provocative response as you are ghaali,you are muqassir,the next person can only be disillusioned,not convinced.

Well, sure. But surely we need to establish what ghuluw and taqsir are. For example, I can say that tafwid is an example of ghuluw. So we also need to give examples of taqsir. So can you name some beliefs that you would consider to be lowering the status of the Imams? Would sahw an-nabi be one of them? What about others?

This is what the thread is about, not refuting anything. There are plenty of other threads for that. You can even open your own if you want.

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Here's one more view to add to the plethora of views already mentioned here, perhaps on a different issue. Abu Jafar ibn Qiba al-Razi, like Fadl ibn Shadhan, believed that the Imam's (as) knowledge was solely acquired through transmission or derivative of the Quran. In other words, they did not admit supernatural transmission of knowledge or pseudo-revelation as possibilities for them. I think the contemporary scholars generally admit the possibilities of the latter for the Imams (as).

Apparently Hisham b. al-Hakam, the companion of Imam Sadiq (a) and Imam Kazhim (a) also had a view like this, believing they were infallible transmitters of the Prophet's (sawa) teachings but denying that the Imams received ilham with it being identified as a Jarudi doctrine or that they were muhaddaths. Even the later scholars who accepted these things seem to have admitted that in believing such it became hard to distinguish the Imams from being prophets in all but name (frankly I can't really understand what the difference between ilham and wahi really even is other than semantics)

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I think some people are not being honest with themselves. They most likely do believe the views attributed to these scholars are examples of taqsir (especially since they view anyone else who has these views as a muqassir), but don't want to say it because of the status of these men. This is a little cowardly in my opinion.

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Well, sure. But surely we need to establish what ghuluw and taqsir are. For example, I can say that tafwid is an example of ghuluw. So we also need to give examples of taqsir. So can you name some beliefs that you would consider to be lowering the status of the Imams? Would sahw an-nabi be one of them? What about others? This is what the thread is about, not refuting anything. There are plenty of other threads for that. You can even open your own if you want.
Yes belief in sahw e Nabi(saww) is taqsir,but mind it i am not calling Sheikh Sadooq a muqqasir,we don't know his intentions,neither circumstances,not even that, Was it his original statement?kept intact since centuries.

No i am not coward i say what i feel,and i have said that,just noticed your post now,so did reply late.

Now you tell me if someone says that ''Mohammad(saww) and Ali(as) were created before universe,were protectors of universe,messengers,angels,is he a ghaali for you?

Now your turn to be brave,and honest.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Apparently Hisham b. al-Hakam, the companion of Imam Sadiq (a) and Imam Kazhim (a) also had a view like this, believing they were infallible transmitters of the Prophet's (sawa) teachings but denying that the Imams received ilham with it being identified as a Jarudi doctrine or that they were muhaddaths. Even the later scholars who accepted these things seem to have admitted that in believing such it became hard to distinguish the Imams from being prophets in all but name (frankly I can't really understand what the difference between ilham and wahi really even is other than semantics)

I thought ilham occurred while sleeping and wahi occurred while awake? The view that they are infallible transmitters of the Prophet's (pbuh) teachings is more inline with our legalism, just one thing to note.

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Apparently Hisham b. al-Hakam, the companion of Imam Sadiq (a) and Imam Kazhim (a) also had a view like this, believing they were infallible transmitters of the Prophet's (sawa) teachings but denying that the Imams received ilham with it being identified as a Jarudi doctrine or that they were muhaddaths. Even the later scholars who accepted these things seem to have admitted that in believing such it became hard to distinguish the Imams from being prophets in all but name (frankly I can't really understand what the difference between ilham and wahi really even is other than semantics)

Were all companions truthful?

When Prophet(saww) could n't get ones,how our Imams(as) had 'immaculate friends'?

I thought ilham occurred while sleeping and wahi occurred while awake? The view that they are infallible transmitters of the Prophet's (pbuh) teachings is more inline with our legalism, just one thing to note.

Are dreams ilham? heard it for the first time.

If it is then how did Ibrahim(as) got Wahi in dream?

That means dreams are not limited to one thing,they can be wahi,can be ilham,and similarly,wahi is not confined to dreams,so how does ilham is?

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Apparently Hisham b. al-Hakam, the companion of Imam Sadiq (a) and Imam Kazhim (a) also had a view like this, believing they were infallible transmitters of the Prophet's (sawa) teachings but denying that the Imams received ilham with it being identified as a Jarudi doctrine or that they were muhaddaths. Even the later scholars who accepted these things seem to have admitted that in believing such it became hard to distinguish the Imams from being prophets in all but name (frankly I can't really understand what the difference between ilham and wahi really even is other than semantics)

Rationally the doctrine seems problematic. How does a nine year old Imam possess sufficient knowledge of Deen? I presume that the doctrine implies that the older Aimmah had memorised the contents of the books, that Ahlulbayt had, to a sufficient level and had been taught by their father or previous Imam. It seems necessary that the Imams receive knowledge.

Do correct me if my understanding is mistaken.

Some companions might have believed in this doctrine. But their belief in this matter does not constitute proof.

al-Irshad, The Imams could hear but not see the angels. The Prophets could see the angels in their dreams and hear them awake awake and asleep. The Messengers could hear and see the angels.

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Rationally the doctrine seems problematic. How does a nine year old Imam possess sufficient knowledge of Deen? I presume that the doctrine implies that the older Aimmah had memorised the contents of the books, that Ahlulbayt had, to a sufficient level and had been taught by their father or previous Imam. It seems necessary that the Imams receive knowledge.

Do correct me if my understanding is mistaken.

Some companions might have believed in this doctrine. But their belief in this matter does not constitute proof.

al-Irshad, The Imams could hear but not see the angels. The Prophets could see the angels in their dreams and hear them awake awake and asleep. The Messengers could hear and see the angels.

Could it be that Allah (swt) gave them stronger fitra/aql by which they were supreme interpreters of the Quran and referential authorities of Islam? Then any knowledge beyond transmission wasn't really required. These are just my thoughts.

Thanks for the clarification, by the way.

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Yes belief in sahw e Nabi(saww) is taqsir,but mind it i am not calling Sheikh Sadooq a muqqasir,we don't know his intentions,neither circumstances,not even that, Was it his original statement?kept intact since centuries.

Ok, that's all I'm asking for, that you tell me which views you consider to be taqsir and which aren't. You don't need to label anyone if you don't want to. However, if you don't trust that the views of these scholars were properly preserved, then why do you trust the hadiths found in their books? I think people would have more motivation for tampering with al-Kafi, say, than some theological work of a scholar.

No i am not coward i say what i feel,and i have said that,just noticed your post now,so did reply late.

Now you tell me if someone says that ''Mohammad(saww) and Ali(as) were created before universe,were protectors of universe,messengers,angels,is he a ghaali for you?

Now your turn to be brave,and honest.

What does 'protectors of the universe mean'? I don't believe in pre-existence, but I don't necessarily consider it to be ghuluw in itself. Ghalis are more likely to strongly believe in it though.

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Were all companions truthful?

When Prophet(saww) could n't get ones,how our Imams(as) had 'immaculate friends'?

I didn't claim they were immaculate. However it would seem strange that a close companion of the Imams who was particularly renown for his prowess in matters of beliefs would get basic `aqeeda issues so wrong.

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I didn't claim they were immaculate. However it would seem strange that a close companion of the Imams who was particularly renown for his prowess in matters of beliefs would get basic `aqeeda issues so wrong.

That is not point who is narrating,but the point is what is narrating,and the narration is contradicting many other facts.So i said so.

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