Title Of "imam" For Marjae?

[Abdul Qaim]

Ok so whats the problem with that?

Before the 20th cntury, Shia weren't as big and productive and sophisticated as they r now..times change, words change..what is annoying you?

That's the excuse usually given for turning batil into haqq and haraam into halaal.

The problem with that, as you put it, is that over the last 700 or so years, as the zhuhoor of the Imam (as) has not eventuated, so the fuqaha have slowly and steadily been taking over the prerogatives and rights of the Imam (as) in his absence, to the point that we now have a claimant to the leadership of not just the Shi'ah, but the entire ummah, who is being referred to as imam. He is holding (according to some) the wilayah in a dunyawi sense in lieu of the appearance of the Imam (as) himself.

Of course, supporters of the system will say that the wilayatu 'l faqih is conditional in comparison to the absolute wilayah of the Imam (as) himself, but in practice, the difference is often more semantic than actual. Reminds me of the difference between between ma'soom and kal ma'soom postulated by the Dawoodi Bohra Isma'ilis in reference to their Da'ee al-Mutlaq. Witness the building of Sayed Khomeini's elaborate shrine and even an official ziyarah produced for pilgrims to recite at his zhareeh.

It has nothing to do with one's fluency in Arabic, because there are plenty of Arab Shi'ah who feel precisely the same way as I do. If you can't understand that, then I'm not sure that I have the time or inclination to make you do so ...

[5a49]

Of course, neither are most Iranians Arab nor do they speak fluent Arabic each day. So, are you saying they unconsciously think about the Ma`sumeen when they say Hazrat-e-Imam about him?

No because they call him Imam as leader.

Seriously you guys if you politically disagree with someone you dony have to find things here and there to argue about, thats childish

[guest 34193]

Reminds me of the difference between between ma'soom and kal ma'soom postulated by the Dawoodi Bohra Isma'ilis in reference to their Da'ee al-Mutlaq. Witness the building of Sayed Khomeini's elaborate shrine and even an official ziyarah produced for pilgrims to recite at his zhareeh.

They pretty much have already gone there. A number of them in fact do believe both he was (and Khamanei now) ma`sum, though they condition it by saying it was an acquired `isma instead of one born with.

[Kismet110]

^^^

It's not about political disagreement nor is the sitation/status of Shi'ah today as opposed to x hundreds of years ago irrelevant. There is NO inherent danger of confusion when you apply imam to someone in your local masajid leading sala'at but there surely is when applied to a huge personality like Khomeini.

Before the revolution there were thousands of marja, many of them highly learned and with devout followings - they were surely guides for the people in the lesser sense but they were never referred to as 'Imam'.

A cult of personality is being created around him and the subsequent WeF, if you don't see that then nothing here will show you.

Last night (talk about timing!) I participated on a thread on FaceBook where a Shi'ah sister had insisted Khomeini is greater than most of the Prophets (as) prior to Prophet Muhammad (SAW). He never claimed that but the idea is firmly lodged in her head and where did it come from?

ALI

[Kismet110]

^^^

He did lead an austere and simple life. So did the Imams and after their passing grand mausoleums were built over their graves.

Try telling a staunch supporter of his that he made mistakes or had deviant views on some matters then come back on here and tell us they dont see him as infallible.

Aside from Masoom and their closest who else has a ziyaraat to recite for them?

ALI

[Replicant]

I personally don't call anyone Imam other than the Imams of Ahlulbayt (as). But I don't think it's wrong because it means 'leader' and when people refer to a person as 'Imam' they usually mean 'leader' rather than an infallible Imam of Ahlulbayt (as).

Last night (talk about timing!) I participated on a thread on FaceBook where a Shi'ah sister had insisted Khomeini is greater than most of the Prophets (as) prior to Prophet Muhammad (SAW). He never claimed that but the idea is firmly lodged in her head and where did it come from?

Must be something to do with this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaGifD93low

Edited June 12, 2012 by Replicant

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Try telling a staunch supporter of his that he made mistakes or had deviant views on some matters then come back on here and tell us they dont see him as infallible.

he did make mistakes, but you wouldn't know what they were. no he didn't have deviant views. he wasn't infallible.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Ya Aba 3abdillah

[5a49]

^^^

It's not about political disagreement nor is the sitation/status of Shi'ah today as opposed to x hundreds of years ago irrelevant. There is NO inherent danger of confusion when you apply imam to someone in your local masajid leading sala'at but there surely is when applied to a huge personality like Khomeini.

Before the revolution there were thousands of marja, many of them highly learned and with devout followings - they were surely guides for the people in the lesser sense but they were never referred to as 'Imam'.

A cult of personality is being created around him and the subsequent WeF, if you don't see that then nothing here will show you.

Last night (talk about timing!) I participated on a thread on FaceBook where a Shi'ah sister had insisted Khomeini is greater than most of the Prophets (as) prior to Prophet Muhammad (SAW). He never claimed that but the idea is firmly lodged in her head and where did it come from?

ALI

Imam Moussa Sadr came to Lebanon and was kidnapped before the Islamic Revolution in Iran, and they called him Imam Moussa Sadr. So don't turn it into Iran or Welayat Fakih

[Al-Mufeed]

I am not here to comment on the issue of using the title of Imam for any one.

But I did want to comment on this specifically:

Last night (talk about timing!) I participated on a thread on FaceBook where a Shi'ah sister had insisted Khomeini is greater than most of the Prophets (as) prior to Prophet Muhammad (SAW). He never claimed that but the idea is firmly lodged in her head and where did it come from?

The reason for this type of miss understanding is due to the propagation of a particular narration. Here is the actual narration ( I will get to its authenticity/understanding afterwords)

وقال صلى الله عليه واله: علماء امتي كأنبياء بنى إسرائيل

And the Prophet (pbuh) said: The Ulamah of my nation are like the prophets of bani Israel.

This hadeeth is spread around allot. And it has some various versions (none of which seem to actually exist in any books - aside from the one mentioned above).

The other versions that people have mentioned (that i have heard my self).

"the ulamah of my nation are better than the prophets of bani isreal"

"the ulamah of my nation are better than the minor prophets of bani isreal"

According to our own books - the only place this narration is found (with out a source to previous books and with out a chain) is in Bihar Al Anwar - specifically - Volume 2 Page 22.

http://www.yasoob.com/books/htm1/m013/12/no1281.html

The narration is mentioned by many scholars - but again it doesn't have any source. In any case when actual ulamah have mentioned this narration they have said that IF we are to accept this narration (since it is mursal) - its to be accepted by understanding that scholars here means the Ahlulbayt (as) them selves, and then by extension the Ulamah of the school of ahlulbayt share in that position so long as they are reverting people back to the pure teachings of the Prophets through Ahlulbayt.

Here is what Syed Saeed Hakeem has said about this hadeeth:

http://www.alhakeem.com/arabic/pages/quesans/listgroup_ques.php?Where=320

قال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم ) : ( علماء أمتي كأنبياء بني اسرائيل ) ، ما المقصود بالعلماء في هذا الحديث ؟

هذا حديث مرسل لعل له تتمة لم تصلنا توضح المراد به ، والمتيقن منه علماء أهل البيت ( عليهم السلام ) ، وهم الأئمة الذين أُمِرَت الأمة بالرجوع إليهم ، وأخذ الدين منهم ، لأنهم حملته الحقيقيون كالأنبياء ( عليهم السلام ) ، وشموله للفقهاء الذين يحملون الدين عن طريق الاجتهاد المعرض للخطأ مشكوك فيه

(basically saying the same thing that I have just summed up).

According to some scholars this hadeeth its self is some sort of Sunni fabrication, since sunnis have elevated their scholars to the level of being able to decree halal/haram (based solely on their own opinion) and they believe that their salvation is through them.

Interestingly some of the sunni's them selves seem to consider it a fabrication.

Question

Sir, I would like to ask about one question I heard from my friend that One Hadith related to Our Beloved Hazrat Muhammad s.a.w that He s.a.w told to his companion In my whole Ummah Some Teachers/Scholars/Alim/Shaikh will have been Respect/Fazeelat/Greatness more than Bani Israel Messenger Still I did`t find to this Hadith I just need Ref from you about the same and need your views with details about the same question. Thanks. JAZAKUMALLAH KHAIR.

Answer

All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.

There is a consensus among the Muslim nation that the Prophets are superior to all other people from among the children of Aadam, and that there is no one equal to them in excellence. Indeed, many scholars reported this consensus.

However, if the Hadeeth that you referred to in the question is the Hadeeth whose wording is: “The scholars of my nation are like the Prophets of the Children of Israel.”, then, it is a baseless Hadeeth. Ash-Shawkaani said in his book: Al-Fawaa-id Al-Majmoo’ah: “Ibn Hajar and Az-Zarkashi said: this Hadeeth is baseless.”

Allaah Knows best.

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=168177

[Kismet110]

^^^

Thanks for the above, she was adamant and didn't explain why she believed as such so who knows for sure but the line you mentioned "the ulamah of my nation are better than the prophets of bani isreal" was alluded to in a later response so it's possible this is the 'source' for her viewpoint?

ALI

[Guest Mushu]

I am not here to comment on the issue of using the title of Imam for any one.

But I did want to comment on this specifically:

The reason for this type of miss understanding is due to the propagation of a particular narration. Here is the actual narration ( I will get to its authenticity/understanding afterwords)

وقال صلى الله عليه واله: علماء امتي كأنبياء بنى إسرائيل

And the Prophet (pbuh) said: The Ulamah of my nation are like the prophets of bani Israel.

This hadeeth is spread around allot. And it has some various versions (none of which seem to actually exist in any books - aside from the one mentioned above).

The other versions that people have mentioned (that i have heard my self).

"the ulamah of my nation are better than the prophets of bani isreal"

"the ulamah of my nation are better than the minor prophets of bani isreal"

According to our own books - the only place this narration is found (with out a source to previous books and with out a chain) is in Bihar Al Anwar - specifically - Volume 2 Page 22.

http://www.yasoob.co.../12/no1281.html

The narration is mentioned by many scholars - but again it doesn't have any source. In any case when actual ulamah have mentioned this narration they have said that IF we are to accept this narration (since it is mursal) - its to be accepted by understanding that scholars here means the Ahlulbayt (as) them selves, and then by extension the Ulamah of the school of ahlulbayt share in that position so long as they are reverting people back to the pure teachings of the Prophets through Ahlulbayt.

Here is what Syed Saeed Hakeem has said about this hadeeth:

http://www.alhakeem....s.php?Where=320

قال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم ) : ( علماء أمتي كأنبياء بني اسرائيل ) ، ما المقصود بالعلماء في هذا الحديث ؟

هذا حديث مرسل لعل له تتمة لم تصلنا توضح المراد به ، والمتيقن منه علماء أهل البيت ( عليهم السلام ) ، وهم الأئمة الذين أُمِرَت الأمة بالرجوع إليهم ، وأخذ الدين منهم ، لأنهم حملته الحقيقيون كالأنبياء ( عليهم السلام ) ، وشموله للفقهاء الذين يحملون الدين عن طريق الاجتهاد المعرض للخطأ مشكوك فيه

(basically saying the same thing that I have just summed up).

According to some scholars this hadeeth its self is some sort of Sunni fabrication, since sunnis have elevated their scholars to the level of being able to decree halal/haram (based solely on their own opinion) and they believe that their salvation is through them.

Interestingly some of the sunni's them selves seem to consider it a fabrication.

http://www.islamweb....twaId&Id=168177

I've seen a video clip where Syed Kamal al-Haydari says that it does in fact refer to our scholars.

Also, Syed al-Khoei famously said that it does refer to our scholars, 'wa laakin laysa anna wa amthaali' (but not me and the likes of me), but of course, this was just him being humble and modest.

[Al-Mufeed]

I've seen a video clip where Syed Kamal al-Haydari says that it does in fact refer to our scholars.

Also, Syed al-Khoei famously said that it does refer to our scholars, 'wa laakin laysa anna wa amthaali' (but not me and the likes of me), but of course, this was just him being humble and modest.

I can't go off based on what some people may or may not have said, but regardless - the narration its self is Mursal (it has no source/sanad) but other than that - note what I wrote:

"and then by extension the Ulamah of the school of ahlulbayt share in that position so long as they are reverting people back to the pure teachings of the Prophets through Ahlulbayt"

In any case - it doesn't really matter because the issue is about people claiming scholars can be higher ranked than prophets - which there is no proof for (from mursal/weak narrations - or established narrations).

Thanks for the above, she was adamant and didn't explain why she believed as such so who knows for sure but the line you mentioned "the ulamah of my nation are better than the prophets of bani isreal" was alluded to in a later response so it's possible this is the 'source' for her viewpoint?

Most probably that's where she got this idea from - thats what I had picked up from your post- and thats why i felt the need to write my post.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

You know, they even came up with a ziyarat to recite to him...

Though i'm not a fan of this, but can you pull out a hadith from somewhere in your vast database saying that it's islamically forbidden?

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

Though i'm not a fan of this, but can you pull out a hadith from somewhere in your vast database saying that it's islamically forbidden?

It's kind of problematic, however. Even if by one's gut feeling. Having something like that institutionalized makes way for grosser exaggerations and made up stories in the future. It's what the Sufis do with their Peers....

في امان الله

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

It's kind of problematic, however. Even if by one's gut feeling. Having something like that institutionalized makes way for grosser exaggerations and made up stories in the future. It's what the Sufis do with their Peers....

Don't disagree. But this doesn't change the real character of Imam Khomaini himself, who's image the haters are ultimately attempting to tarnish. It's flaws introduced by the people, not Imam Khomeini himself.

[Al-Mufeed]

Hes not the first person they have made ziyarats for - there are several. Almost any historic figure whose grave you visit has some sort of ziyarat.

Here for example is the Ziyarat of Um Al Baneen (which is not from Ahlulbayt (as) -but written by people because they want some thing to recite when visiting her):

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

^ there was also a ziyara for Ammar bin Yasir (ra) next to his shrine when I visited him.

[Hameedeh]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Ziyarat in Syria. http://www.asseratto...a%20(Shaam).pdf

List of Ziyarat in Saudi Arabia

Mecca:

Holy Kabah

(1)Hijr-e-ismail (2)Makme Ibraheem(a.s.) (3)Zam Zam (4)Hajr-e-Aswad (5)safa (6)Marwa (7)Mount Abu Qubais. (8)House of Hazrat-E-Khadija(s.a) (9)House of Arkan Bin Abi Akram (10)Shaib-e-Abi Talib (11)Place of Birth of Holy Prohpet (S.A.W) (12)cave of Hijr (Mount Hira) (13)Cave of Saur (14)Arafat (15)Muzdalefa (16)Mina.

Kabrastan-e-e Abu Talib

Hazrat Abdul Manaf

Hazrat abdul Mutalib

Hazrat Abu Talib

Hazrat Aamena binte Wahab

Ummah Momeneen Hazrat Kadija binte Khuwaylid

Hazrat-e-Qasim (a.s.)

MADINA

(1)Masjid-e-Nabivi (2)Grave of Holy Prophet (S.A.W) (3)Pillar of Repentence (4)Makame Jibraeel (5)grave of janabe Fatema Zehra (S.A) (6)Kabrastan of Baqi (7)Holy grave of H. Imam Hasan(a.s) (8)Holy grave of H. Imam Mohd Baqir (a.s) (9)Holy grave of H. Imam Jafare Sadiq (a.s) (10)Holy grave of H. Imam Zainul Abedin (a.s) (11)Holy grave of H. Abbas bin Abdul Mutalib (12)Holy grave of H. Fatema Binte Aad (Mother of H. Ali a.s) (13)graves of wives of Holy Prophet (S.A.W) (14)grave of Hazrat Akeel & Hazrat Janabe Abdullah bin Jaffeer-e-tayyar (15)Grave of Hazrat Ibraheem (16)Grave of Maryters of war of Ohad. (17) Grave of H.Ismaiel bin Jafar-e- Sadiq (a.s). (18) Grave of Hazrat Halima-e-Sadiya. (19)Grave of aunts of Holy Prophet (S.A.W) (20) Grave of Janabe Ummatul Banin (21)Father of Holy Prophet (s.a.w) (22)Ohad (23)Masjid-e-Quba (24)Masjid-e-Mohta (25) Masjid-e-gamamah (26) Masjid-e-Hazrat Ali (A.S) & Hazrat Fatema (S.A) (27) Masjid-e-Mubahela (28)Mohalla-e-Bani Hashim (29) Masjid-e-Zu Kiblatain (30)Masjid-e-Fatah

BETWEEN MECCA & MADINA.

(1) Masjid-e-Gader-e-Kum (2) Hazrat Aaamena Abawaee (3) Rabza-Abu Zar-e-eGhaffari (R.A.) (4) Shooda-e-Badr.

Source: http://www.asseratto...com/tableeg.asp

[Kismet110]

All of these though are from historical figures/places - any from somone who passed away in the last 50 or so years?

ALI

[askander]

Imam means leader agreed. If you use the word for every leader there is no issue. Like Imam-e-Masjid, Imam-e-Juma etc and this transfers to the person who leads prayers on that day. Next day if the person changes then he carries the title.Likewise if Iranis take the meaning of the word as leader they should use it to all leaders like Khamanaie, Ahmedinejad, Rafsanjani and Khatami.And why this insistence. Even a court dismisses a case on benefit of doubt. When you have a controversial issue it is always better to follow the safe path. If Sunnis call someone Imam it is okay. But in Shiaism Imam means specifically the 12 Imams. If shias call someone other than these 12 Imams as Imam then it is definitely an issue. You call Khomeinie Ayatollah and Ruhollah, is it not sufficient. How many words you need to describe a leader?.He was a great leader no doubt. But lets not try to make him a Saint.

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

All of these though are from historical figures/places - any from somone who passed away in the last 50 or so years?

So what, what's you're point? That Imam Khomaini can't have a ziyara until he's a 'historical figure'?

Edited June 13, 2012 by Ya Aba 3abdillah

[Kismet110]

So what, what's you're point? That Imam Khomaini can't have a ziyara until he's a 'historical figure'? Where do you pull such trash from?

Ziyaraats were 'traditionally' for Prophets, Imams, their companions and family, not clerics or leaders.

If anyone knows different then fine, please do share.

ALI

Edited June 13, 2012 by Ya Aba 3abdillah

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

Ziyaraats were 'traditionally' for Prophets, Imams, their companions and family, not clerics or leaders.

If anyone knows different then fine, please do share.

Answer the question. If you missed it, here it is again ....

So what, what's you're point? That Imam Khomaini can't have a ziyara until he's a 'historical figure'? Where do you pull such trash from?

Now you've included 'companions' in the mix? Pull out some ahadith, since that's all you use apparently, suggesting it's only for "Prophets, Imams, their companions". And 'traditionally' is unusable here, because there's no 'traditionally' in Islam. If you're suggesting a zyara can't be written for Imam Khomaini, and if you're suggesting he shouldn't be given a title of Imam, prove it with Islamic sources.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Ya Aba 3abdillah

[Kismet110]

^^^

Where have I written he (or anyone else) is forbidden to have that title? And traditionally is applicable here because the people ziyaraat have been written for (up until very recently) are universally revered figures who hold a specific status in Shi'ah history.

Now step aside and let someone who isn't emotionally overcome the moment one of his idols is questioned answer.

ALI

Edited June 13, 2012 by Ya Aba 3abdillah

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

And traditionally is applicable here

No it is not. Islam is based on laws and beliefs taught by ma'soumeen, NOT traditions. Who wrote the zyara for Ammar bin Yasir and others mentioned here? Imams (as)? Don't just come up with your own Islamic interpretations. A greater time-span since death doesn't make someone holier. Ammar bin Yasir wasn't a ma'soum, neither was bibi ma'souma in qum. They have ziyaraat. Their ziyaarat weren't written by the AB (as). So the question is very simple one, and stop dodging it, on what Islamic basis can a non-ma'soum living 1000 years ago, according to you, be permitted to have a ziyaara, but not someone that died yesterday?

You have no answer. The reason is because you're filled with hate which blinds your judgement and is reflected in your words. And this is also reflected in the fact that you only brought up this issue with the title "Imam" for Imam Khomaini though it was used prior to him and no one had issues with it.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Ya Aba 3abdillah

[Al-Mufeed]

^ actually if i remember correctly the ziyarat of fatima masooma (as) is from Ahlulbayt.

I could be wrong though

[Kismet110]

No it is not. Islam is based on laws and beliefs taught by ma'soumeen, NOT traditions. Who wrote the zyara for Ammar bin Yasir and others mentioned here? Imams (as)? Don't just come up with your own Islamic interpretations. A greater time-span since death doesn't make someone holier. Ammar bin Yasir wasn't a ma'soum, neither was bibi ma'souma in qum. They have ziyaraat. Their ziyaarat weren't written by the AB (as). So the question is very simple one, and stop dodging it, on what Islamic basis can a non-ma'soum living 1000 years ago, according to you, be permitted to have a ziyaara, but not someone that died yesterday?

You have no answer. The reason is because you're filled with hate which blinds your judgement and is reflected in your words. And this is also reflected in the fact that twits like you only brought up this issue with the title "Imam" for Imam Khomaini though it was used prior to him and no one had issues with it.

Did I start this thread? NO.

Did I say it isn't permissible for him to be called Imam? NO.

Did I state ziyaraat can only be for Masum? NO.

Did I ask if anyone bar Khomeini in recent times has a ziyaraat composed for him? YES.

Stop comparing a modern day Shi'ah cleric with the great figures of our deen who are universally accepted as such. He isn't even close to their status or standing for many Shi'ah, if you can't see that then the "worship of Rabbis and Monks" is very applicable to you.

ALI

Edited June 13, 2012 by Ya Aba 3abdillah

[askander]

Traditions?. Ziyarats are definitely traditions. Most of the things we do are traditions ofcourse. By order we have few things such as : Namaz, Roza, Zakat , Haj,Jihad.... These things are there from all Prophets and are obligatory.Few things by Sunnah like Khums, Nikah, Circumcision, .....The other things we observe like majlises, birthdays, death anniversaries, amals, ziyarats,....are by traditions only.Since Ziyarat is only sending Salams to someone it can be for anyone and is not limited. My question specifically is about Namaz-e-Ziyarat. Can anyone technically explain this Namaz to me by Shariah or Fiqh?.

[Directora]

Salam,

Unfortunately, It is present certain individuals who are against Imam al-Khomeini in politics are using this thread to attack him.

Iranians use the title 'Imam' for Seyed Khomeini only to mean 'Leader' (only that)

Don't make something so simple into a complex argument on whether he is masoom or not. He clearly isn't and has made mistakes. I remember on one of his Lectures he accepted he made some mistakes in the books he wrote when he was young. (Shows how great this person is)

The Shirazi Family who have always been Jealous of the Love Iranian and other Shia people had for Imam Khomeini have always made propaganda and Irrational arguments against him in order to bring his status down. (but as long as Allah is in our Hearts they will never succeed)

Tomorrow Ayatollah Khamenei may also be called 'Imam' (not for being a masoom or being at a higher status then some Prophets) No! only because he is a Islamic Leader for Iran.

May Allah heal the ones whose eyes are too weak to see the Greatness of Imam al-Khomeini and May Allah remove jealousy from the hearts of the Shirazi family and replace it with Love.

Inshallah,

Directora

[Shia_Debater]

You should be careful who you accuse. The Shirazi family are Shi`a Muslims as far as I'm aware, and you saying they are jealous is an accusation. I'm not sure if the accusation you made would be considered a sin or not, but I would advise refraining from accusing your fellow muslim brothers of a sin.

[guest 34193]

Iranians use the title 'Imam' for Seyed Khomeini only to mean 'Leader' (only that)

Tomorrow Ayatollah Khamenei may also be called 'Imam' (not for being a masoom or being at a higher status then some Prophets) No! only because he is a Islamic Leader for Iran.

So, if Iranians only mean leader by saying Imam, why don't they call Khamenei the same today then?

May Allah heal the ones whose eyes are too weak to see the Greatness of Imam al-Khomeini and May Allah remove jealousy from the hearts of the Shirazi family and replace it with Love.

Speaking like that really doesn't help your case

[Directora]

^^

Salam,

Many Iranians today call Ayatollah Khamenei 'Imam' (only this title is not given to him in the media)

Others like myself use the Iranian version of 'Imam' - We call him 'Rahbar' which is the same and no different in meaning. (Media uses 'Rahbar' not the Arabic term)

Hope you understand.

Directora

[Kismet110]

@Directora: My eyes are fine & thanks for asking but your comment is a little disturbing.

I appreciate Iranians (most of them) and other Muslims too hold him in high esteem but is there really a need for this level of fervent adulation? And what does this have to do with the Shirazi family?

ALI

[Ya Aba 3abdillah]

is there really a need for this level of fervent adulation?

If it's halal and not effecting the reputation of Islam, what the hell is it to you? 7 million went to his funeral. People want to visit his grave, they have to build the infrastructure to accommodate the people that go there. When someone like Mandela dies, the same thing's going to happen. Are you going to tell South Africans not to go to his funeral or build and visit his memorial?

You're a hater, that's all there is to it.

[Haydar Husayn]

So, if Iranians only mean leader by saying Imam, why don't they call Khamenei the same today then?

I always assumed they did. :mellow: