Title Of "imam" For Marjae?

[Goku]

Sallam Alykum,

why is it that some marjae have the title of Imam while others do not? For example I've never seen "Imam sistani" but I've seen "imam khomeini".

[Shia_Debater]

(bismillah)

(salam)

I think the reason he was called Imam was because of being the 'Imam of Iran' (Leader of Iran) and not because of reaching a higher status than Ayatullah or anything like that. I personally don't agree with anyone other than the Imams (as) being called Imam - but that is the reason why some are called Imam [or at least why I think they are called Imam]

(wasalam)

[Al-Englisi]

Arabs usually refer to their big leaders as Imam _____. Sayed al-Khoie was referred to as Imam, as was Imam Musa Sadr, Shahid Baqir Sadr, even Mohammad Shirazi. Imam is an arab word used to mean leader, its never been specific for infallibles, the Quran uses it in different ways too. Imam al-nar for instance.

[guest 34193]

Arabs usually refer to their big leaders as Imam _____. Sayed al-Khoie was referred to as Imam, as was Imam Musa Sadr, Shahid Baqir Sadr, even Mohammad Shirazi. Imam is an arab word used to mean leader, its never been specific for infallibles, the Quran uses it in different ways too. Imam al-nar for instance.

Did it really start with the Arabs though or do you think it was in response to when the Iranians started calling Khomeini "Imam"? (I mean as a regular title, not as part of some panegyric where a person might get called all sorts of things)

[Chaotic Muslem]

al imam al hafidh al thahabi

al imam al ghazali

and it goes on -.- a word without any significance beyond what it means , a leader

[askander]

Every word has a meaning. Paighambar means a Messenger, but when this Word is assigned to Prophets of Allah it is inappropiate to use it for a Postman or Courier. Imam means 'Front' but when this word has been used to describe our 12 Imams then it acquires it as the Primary meaning. This word is in use atleast from the times of Prophet Abraham AS when 2 Angels came to his house to give the good news of Hazrat Ismail's AS birth "He shall be the father of 12 Imams" they told Prophet Abraham AS. There is a Hadith by Prophet Mohammed (SAW) , which can also be found in Sahih Bukhari and Sunnis also recite it,which says "I shall be followed by 12 Imams". When the word IMAM has been used to describe our 12 Imams it is not appropiate to use it for others.

[Chaotic Muslem]

Every word has a meaning. Paighambar means a Messenger, but when this Word is assigned to Prophets of Allah it is inappropiate to use it for a Postman or Courier. Imam means 'Front' but when this word has been used to describe our 12 Imams then it acquires it as the Primary meaning. This word is in use atleast from the times of Prophet Abraham AS when 2 Angels came to his house to give the good news of Hazrat Ismail's AS birth "He shall be the father of 12 Imams" they told Prophet Abraham AS. There is a Hadith by Prophet Mohammed (SAW) , which can also be found in Sahih Bukhari and Sunnis also recite it,which says "I shall be followed by 12 Imams". When the word IMAM has been used to describe our 12 Imams it is not appropiate to use it for others.

bro , read quran

يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُولَئِكَ يَقْرَؤُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلاَ يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلاً

يوم ندعو كل اناس بامامهم فمن اوتي كتابه بيمينه فاولئك يقرؤون كتابهم ولا يظلمون فتيلا

On the day when We shall summon all men with their record, whoso is given his book in his right hand - such will read their book and they will not be wronged a shred.

وان نكثوا ايمانهم من بعد عهدهم وطعنوا في دينكم فقاتلوا ائمة الكفر انهم لا ايمان لهم لعلهم ينتهون

And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist

وجعلناهم ائمة يهدون بامرنا واوحينا اليهم فعل الخيرات واقام الصلاة وايتاء الزكاة وكانوا لنا عابدين

And We made them chiefs who guide by Our command, and We inspired in them the doing of good deeds and the right establishment of worship and the giving of alms, and they were worshippers of Us (alone)

ونريد ان نمن على الذين استضعفوا في الارض ونجعلهم ائمة ونجعلهم الوارثين

And We desired to show favour unto those who were oppressed in the earth, and to make them examples and to make them the inheritors,

وجعلناهم ائمة يدعون الى النار ويوم القيامة لا ينصرون

And We made them patterns that invite unto the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they will not be helped.

وجعلنا منهم ائمة يهدون بامرنا لما صبروا وكانوا باياتنا يوقنون

And when they became steadfast and believed firmly in Our revelations, We appointed from among them leaders who guided by Our comman

a'emmah plural of imam is used to describe teh leaders of good AND leaders of bad people in quraan

[5a49]

Its not a big deal..the sheikh of ur Masjid is called an Imam..Imam Masjid or Imam Salat. imam means a guy who people tend to follow

[Imtiaz_Hyder]

(salam)

When its used for Imam of Mosque the title is taken very casually

But when using it for some specific personalities, like for Ayatollah Khomeini or or Ayat. Khamenei then its not taken so casually but taken very formally. Since Imam is used for the Masoomeen (as), it should be reserved for them(as) ONLY.

The hardcore followers of the above two personalities also try to use this title(including other titles as leader, rahbar etc) to push for their importance and while doing so even try to place them at par with our holy Imams(as).

Thats where there the problem is

(wasalam)

[Al-Englisi]

Every word has a meaning. Paighambar means a Messenger, but when this Word is assigned to Prophets of Allah it is inappropiate to use it for a Postman or Courier. Imam means 'Front' but when this word has been used to describe our 12 Imams then it acquires it as the Primary meaning. This word is in use atleast from the times of Prophet Abraham AS when 2 Angels came to his house to give the good news of Hazrat Ismail's AS birth "He shall be the father of 12 Imams" they told Prophet Abraham AS. There is a Hadith by Prophet Mohammed (SAW) , which can also be found in Sahih Bukhari and Sunnis also recite it,which says "I shall be followed by 12 Imams". When the word IMAM has been used to describe our 12 Imams it is not appropiate to use it for others.

(salam)

When its used for Imam of Mosque the title is taken very casually

But when using it for some specific personalities, like for Ayatollah Khomeini or or Ayat. Khamenei then its not taken so casually but taken very formally. Since Imam is used for the Masoomeen (as), it should be reserved for them(as) ONLY.

The hardcore followers of the above two personalities also try to use this title(including other titles as leader, rahbar etc) to push for their importance and while doing so even try to place them at par with our holy Imams(as).

Thats where there the problem is

(wasalam)

Both are just views based on feelings, and completely non-academic. Look at Cm's post for different uses for the word (including its collective - jam' form).

Dont make Islamic red-lines, rules and restrictions based on your own emotions and preferences.

At least bring something forward from the Quran, Ahadith or even scholars (or scholarly works) to prove your support your point, otherwise your opinion by its self has no standing in face of the truth and reality which exists. Islam has not disallowed it, nor do we find that using the term has even been discouraged by the Masums (as) so not a good idea to present your view as an Islamic one.

One last point, words like Imam and Rahber are either Arabic or Persian, if we want to know their meanings and usage, tis best to ask people or grammer experts of those language. When these words are used by the Arabs or Persians, they are not used in the same way that people of Indo/Pak origin understand or use them.

[askander]

I have been living in an Arab Country for the last 17 years. If the word Imam is used as a word I have no objection at all. Here you will find some boards in front of gates written "Mamnoo Waqoof Imam al Bab" meaning "No Parking in front of gate".I can fairly understand the meaning of the Word. But it is a different case when it is used as a title of a person.You talk about Quran. Quran doesnot allow "Gulu" that is raising the status of a person above what he actually is.

The Shiah theory of Caliphate rests on the idea that if Allah has appointed all the 124,000 Messengers and not even one of them was appointed by people then only Allah has the Authority to appoint sucessor to the Prophet of Islam. That is the reason we dont recognise people appointed as Khalifas by people. The same logic applies to Imams as well. It is Only Allah who has the Authority to appoint Imams and He has already appointed the 12 Imams we know.

[muhibb-ali]

Salam.

Its not a big deal..the sheikh of ur Masjid is called an Imam..Imam Masjid or Imam Salat. imam means a guy who people tend to follow

Correct. Not a big deal because he's called "Imam-e-Masjid" or "Imam-e-Salat" or "Imam-e-Juma" or "Imam-e-Jamaat" and not only "Imam" hence limiting the scope.

The Problem lies in using only the word "Imam".

Edited June 11, 2012 by muhibb-ali

[Chaotic Muslem]

I have been living in an Arab Country for the last 17 years. If the word Imam is used as a word I have no objection at all. Here you will find some boards in front of gates written "Mamnoo Waqoof Imam al Bab" meaning "No Parking in front of gate".I can fairly understand the meaning of the Word. But it is a different case when it is used as a title of a person.You talk about Quran. Quran doesnot allow "Gulu" that is raising the status of a person above what he actually is.

The Shiah theory of Caliphate rests on the idea that if Allah has appointed all the 124,000 Messengers and not even one of them was appointed by people then only Allah has the Authority to appoint sucessor to the Prophet of Islam. That is the reason we dont recognise people appointed as Khalifas by people. The same logic applies to Imams as well. It is Only Allah who has the Authority to appoint Imams and He has already appointed the 12 Imams we know.

facepalms !

أمام = amam = front

إمام = emam = leader

17 years didnt help you much

لا تقف أمام الباب

إمام المسجد

similarly

eman = faith

aman=safety

but anyways , pointless

[83838]

To all neo-akhbaris who have objection about imam being used for non-ma'sumin, please show me the ahadith to prove your objection!

[Imtiaz_Hyder]

(salam)

Both are just views based on feelings, and completely non-academic. Look at Cm's post for different uses for the word (including its collective - jam' form).

Dont make Islamic red-lines, rules and restrictions based on your own emotions and preferences.

At least bring something forward from the Quran, Ahadith or even scholars (or scholarly works) to prove your support your point, otherwise your opinion by its self has no standing in face of the truth and reality which exists. Islam has not disallowed it, nor do we find that using the term has even been discouraged by the Masums (as) so not a good idea to present your view as an Islamic one.

One last point, words like Imam and Rahber are either Arabic or Persian, if we want to know their meanings and usage, tis best to ask people or grammer experts of those language. When these words are used by the Arabs or Persians, they are not used in the same way that people of Indo/Pak origin understand or use them.

If you had read the posts as it is without taking out your conclusions and trying to teach us what Quran, ahadith or the language has to say, you would have known that its not the word or term which is used is the only point of contention here. Its the way the diehard followers try to potray them (the one on whom these titles are showered or self imposed), equating them on par with the Masoomeen (as). Though superficially they say they dont mean it but whatever is told, titles given or promoted, rulings followed as though they are told by an infallible Imam(as) (rulings which go completely opposite to the laws brought by the Holy Prophet(saw) which the Imams(as) also couldnt change) are all so very obvious as one to see the real intent.

And I think that is what you meant to not make Islamic red-lines, rules & restrictions based on emotions & preferences

That is the real problem when there are no lines, no boundaries made and things are done in the name of religion while trying to give a different meaning to it when everything is crystal clear to the discerning eye.

(wasalam)

[5a49]

Salam.

Correct. Not a big deal because he's called "Imam-e-Masjid" or "Imam-e-Salat" or "Imam-e-Juma" or "Imam-e-Jamaat" and not only "Imam" hence limiting the scope.

The Problem lies in using only the word "Imam".

Nobody calls imam khomeimi just imam..

[guest 34193]

Nobody calls imam khomeimi just imam..

Eh? They do in Iran all the time (Emam or even Hazrat-e-Emam)

[Kismet110]

Br macisaac beat me to the punch; Iranians do regularly use just the title "Imam" for Khoemeini (and Khamenai).

The strange (and incorrect) examples of frontgates don't apply nor does what sunnis call some of their scholars.

The 'imam' of your local masajid is in context as br Muhib mentioned and, tbh, most people tend to use other honorifics anyway for their local maulvi.

In Shi'ah traditions ONLY reference was to Imams (as). Maybe Khomeini didn't ask for the title but I don't think he discouraged it and, judging by the size of his mausoleum, I can see the disturbing parellels some people might draw.

There are narrations about usage of the word 'Imam' although maybe their context doesn't fit exactly with this. I don't have them to hand at work but will try fwd'ing to my PC to post later on.

ALI

[guest 34193]

and, judging by the size of his mausoleum, I can see the disturbing parellels some people might draw.

You know, they even came up with a ziyarat to recite to him...

[muhibb-ali]

Salam

Nobody calls imam khomeimi just imam..

Watch any documentaries on him and you will see that he is addressed as for example "The Imam gave a speech in which ....".

A first time listener would (incorrectly) take this to be referring to the infallible Imam's (as) and there lies the problem as I see it.

Wassalam

Edited June 11, 2012 by muhibb-ali

[Kismet110]

You know, they even came up with a ziyarat to recite to him...

I take it you're joking?!?

Salam

Watch any documentaries on him and you will see that he is addressed as for example "The Imam gave a speech in which ....".

A first time listener would (incorrectly) take this to be referring to the infallible Imam's (as) and there lies the problem as I see it.

Wassalam

Many years ago I went to a lecture where the late Mullah Asghar M M Jafar (highly respected Indian scholar who kept the title 'Mullah' regardless of his knowledge) spent a large part of the 60 minutes warning against adoption of the "13th Imam" as part of Shi'ah ideology.

Afterwards I argued with my older brother about his 'attack' on Khomeini but hindsight is a wonderful thing....

ALI

[Hameedeh]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Ayatullah Khamenei's website ..... leader.ir

Ayatullah Shirazi's website ......... [edit]

Edited June 29, 2022 by Hameedeh
Link removed. Website no longer exists.

[muhibb-ali]

Salam.

You know, they even came up with a ziyarat to recite to him...

Yup. I was shocked to see the Ziyarah in his Mausoleum.

Wassalam

[muhibb-ali]

Salam.

What is the problem with it? Imam means leader. No one has claimed that he is infallible. These titles are just used as a sign of respect.

People in Iran sometimes call each other "hazrate aali" or "jenabe aali" instead of saying "you".

If the word 'Imam' was also used like the words "Hazrate aali" or "Jenable aali" then it would not have been a problem because of its common and generic usage.

But the word 'Imam' is known to be used only for the Infallible Imam's (as) until recently, hence would not ever prefer to use the word for addressing another individual.

Wassalam

[Guest Mushu]

Let me tell you all a story.

A family friend of ours was a very respected Islamic and social figure. He used to be close friends to the Iranian ambassador in England, during Syed al-Khomeini's time. The family friend would never refer to the Syed as 'Imam'. The ambassador found this strange, and asked him why. The family friend responded that he felt it was wrong, since we only have 12 Imams, and that's it. The ambassador disagreed with him.

Several months later, the ambassador visited the family friend, with a gift from Syed al-Khomeini. The family friend was surprised, and asked him what the present was for, since he had never even met the Syed, nor did the Syed even know who he was. The ambassador described how he had had the opportunity to meet the Syed, and had told him abou the family friend. Apparently, on hearing about our family friend, the Syed smiled, and said that he is right, and it was in fact wrong to call him Imam. He then sent the family a friend a gift to show his appreciation.

[Hameedeh]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Hazrat when speaking about Ahlul Bayt AS means like Saint or Holy person. Hazrat when used for Ulema means like Sir.

Nobody in Iran would confuse Imam RA with any of the Holy Ahlul Bayt AS.

[red lion]

Br macisaac beat me to the punch; Iranians do regularly use just the title "Imam" for Khoemeini (and Khamenai). The strange (and incorrect) examples of frontgates don't apply nor does what sunnis call some of their scholars. The 'imam' of your local masajid is in context as br Muhib mentioned and, tbh, most people tend to use other honorifics anyway for their local maulvi. In Shi'ah traditions ONLY reference was to Imams (as). Maybe Khomeini didn't ask for the title but I don't think he discouraged it and, judging by the size of his mausoleum, I can see the disturbing parellels some people might draw. ALI

+1.

ya Ali (as) madad

[aliasghark]

On 6/11/2012 at 8:01 AM, hameedeh said:

(bismillah)

(salam)

Ayatullah Khamenei's website ..... leader.ir

Ayatullah Shirazi's website ......... [edit]

Haha, this is hilarious... 'Imam Shirazi' is repeated a couple of times on his site. Aren't his supporters to be against this practice?

From the file [edit] on the site:

Quote

It is on this basis that that the late supreme religious authority

Imam Sayyid Mu9ammad al-Žusayn: al-Sh:r"z:, he of

encyclopaedic knowledge, universal thought and scope, and

Islamic output, undertakes to introduce the school of the

household of the Prophet Mu9ammad (ahl al-bayt), peace be upon

them, so that the world may come to know their straight way and

the benevolent message of Islam and the happiness it leads to in

this world and the next.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Hameedeh
Edit. Link to a website that no longer exists.

[5a49]

Eh? They do in Iran all the time (Emam or even Hazrat-e-Emam)

Salam

Watch any documentaries on him and you will see that he is addressed as for example "The Imam gave a speech in which ....".

A first time listener would (incorrectly) take this to be referring to the infallible Imam's (as) and there lies the problem as I see it.

Wassalam

In a documentary because they are adressing him.

Imam means leader, or a person that people follow.

The infallibles are called Imam as well and because of the Imamat in our faith.

Learn Arabic

[Abdul Qaim]

In a documentary because they are adressing him.

Imam means leader, or a person that people follow.

The infallibles are called Imam as well and because of the Imamat in our faith.

Learn Arabic

It's not about learning Arabic. Everyone knows what the word imam literally means. However, until the later part of the 20th century CE, the term was used amongst the Shi'ah only when referring to a Ma'soom (as), with perhaps the minor exception being whomever was leading during jama'at salaah. It is now being used to describe the faqih or 'alim who claims to lead the community

al-Mufeed (ra) and others who followed him in leading the community after the ghayba were never referred to as imams, yet they were just as, if not more, deserving of being called as such than the latest crop of fuqaha. That is because in Tashayyu', the term "imam" has a very specific meaning when it is used to allude to the leader of the ummah. You can comprehend that, can't you?

But there have been many historical/ religious figures who called in this way:

Imam Bukhari

Imam Ghazzali

Imam Fakhr-e- Razi

Imam Musa Sadr

....

Ohh dear. You quoted four personalities, three of them being Sunni, and the other another late 20th century CE Shi'i figure, thus showing just how much of a bida'ah the convention of naming our 'ulamaa as "imams" truly is ....

[5a49]

Ok so whats the problem with that?

Before the 20th cntury, Shia weren't as big and productive and sophisticated as they r now..times change, words chage..what is annoying you?

[askander]

I see some people are defending this act vehemently. One day they may even affix "Alaihis Salam" after his name. I am not against him. I believe, he being a Scholar we must respect him. But crossing boundries is the question here.We should watch our love for any one. Nusairis loved Hazrat Ali beyond limits and started calling him Allah. We must learn to draw boundaries.

[5a49]

How are we crossing boundries?

Man its because you're not an Arab and you dont speak fluent arabic each day, thus unconcsiously when you hear imam you think about infallibles..but the word imam in arabic is used in many terms...the important is the niyya

[guest 34193]

How are we crossing boundries?

Man its because you're not an Arab and you dont speak fluent arabic each day, thus unconcsiously when you hear imam you think about infallibles..but the word imam in arabic is used in many terms...the important is the niyya

Of course, neither are most Iranians Arab nor do they speak fluent Arabic each day. So, are you saying they unconsciously think about the Ma`sumeen when they say Hazrat-e-Imam about him?

One day they may even affix "Alaihis Salam" after his name.

Who said they don't...? If I remember correctly, they generally affix a "salaam Allah alayh" after mentioning him.

I take it you're joking?!?

If only... In fact it appears you can even find this "ziyarat" in some copies of Mafatih now.

[muhibb-ali]

Salam.

It wouldn't have been much of a problem had the word 'Imam' been used for him or any one else on one or another occasion. Because even Imam Al-Zaman (atfs) used the word 'Imam' in his Tauqee (letter) while replying to a question on Imam of Jamat. So that sort of usage should be fine because all are aware of who is being addressed and whats the scope of the word 'Imam' in this case.

Here is the arabic text from the letter of Imam (atfs):

وسأل عن الرجل يلحق الامام وهو راكع ، فيركع معه ويحتسب تلك الركعة ، فان بعض أصحابنا قال : إن لم يسمع تكبيرة الركوع فليس له أن يعتد بتلك الركعة .فأجاب عليه السلام إذا لحق مع الامام من تسبيح الركوع تسبيحة واحدة اعتد بتلك الركعة ، وإن لم يسمع تكبيرة الركوع

[source: Bihar Al-Anwar Vol. 53, Pg. 163]

al-shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-hadis/behar53/a17.html

But if its as regularly and in the same manner as its used for the Masoom Imam's (as) then that's where it becomes difficult to digest. And as I see it this should be pretty simple and clear to understand.

In a documentary because they are adressing him.

Imam means leader, or a person that people follow.

The infallibles are called Imam as well and because of the Imamat in our faith.

Learn Arabic

When they use the word Imam for him they don't give the meaning that they intent.

Lets take a small test ..tell me whom the word 'Imam' refer to in the below statement, A Masoom Imam (as) or an fallible Imam??

"The Imam ordered to fight the oppressors.."

Wassalam.

Edited June 12, 2012 by muhibb-ali