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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Aslamalaykum,

@Kalaam

That is just one issue. There can be many other issues, so a sahih chain doesn't mean that the narration is authentic

Yes you've a partial valid point but when the classic scholars declared the sanad sahih, they would then usually make a remark/comment on the matn i.e munkar, doesn't sound right etc but when the scholars have left the narration without commenting they didn't find the matn problematic.

I will examine the chains and then get back to you inshaaAllah

Is Allah pleased with the fasts, pilgrimage or prayer of a hypocrite?

Sorry I should have mentioned this earlier but if you look at the verse again Allah swt has used the term believers

áÞÏ ÑÖí Çááå Úä ÇáãÄãäíä ÇÐ íÈÇíÚæäß ÊÍÊ ÇáÔÌÑÉ ÝÚáã ãÇÝí ÞáæÈåã ÝÇäÒá ÇáÓßíäÉ Úáíåã æÇËÇÈåã ÝÊÍÇ ÞÑíÈÇ

Meaning that hypocrites wouldn't be counted amongst the who Allah swt is pleased with, what is classed as a believer in the eyes of Allah swt well it includes those who don't doubt etc :)

Edited by muslimunity1

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Yes you've a partial valid point but when the classic scholars declared the sanad sahih, they would then usually make a remark/comment on the matn i.e munkar, doesn't sound right etc but when the scholars have left the narration without commenting they didn't find the matn problematic.

I have not talked about matn at all, our discussion is on the sanad till now, and there are a large number of cases where the scholars said the sanad is sahih, but it didn't make the narrations as sahih. Do you deny this?

Sorry I should have mentioned this earlier but if you look at the verse again Allah swt has used the term believers

áÞÏ ÑÖí Çááå Úä ÇáãÄãäíä ÇÐ íÈÇíÚæäß ÊÍÊ ÇáÔÌÑÉ ÝÚáã ãÇÝí ÞáæÈåã ÝÇäÒá ÇáÓßíäÉ Úáíåã æÇËÇÈåã ÝÊÍÇ ÞÑíÈÇ

Meaning that hypocrites wouldn't be counted amongst the who Allah swt is pleased with, what is classed as a believer in the eyes of Allah swt well it includes those who don't doubt etc :)

Indeed, the hypocrites woudn't be counted, for who was the hypocrite who rendered allegiance under the tree? There was no hypocrite there. And Abu Bakr (ra) was indeed a Momin i.e believer.

Allah says in Quran

æÇä Çááå ãÚ ÇáãÄãäíä

Indeed Allah is with the believers

Similarly we also read in Quran

ÇáÇ ÊäÕÑæå ÝÞÏ äÕÑå Çááå ÇÐ ÇÎÑÌå ÇáÐíä ßÝÑæÇ ËÇäí ÇËäíä ÇÐåãÇ Ýí ÇáÛÇÑ ÇÐ íÞæá áÕÇÍÈå áÇÊÍÒä Çä Çááå ãÚäÇ

If you help him (Muhammad SAW) not (it does not matter), for Allah did indeed help him when the disbelievers drove him out, the second of two, when they (Muhammad SAW and Abu Bakr) were in the cave, and he (SAW) said to his companion (Abu Bakr): "Be not sad (or afraid), surely Allah is with us."

Now it is established , that at this time, Abu Bakr was with the Prophet (s), and at this occasion, Messenger of Allah said

Çä Çááå ãÚäÇ

Allah is with us

So it is proven, that Allah was with both of them. And in Quran, it is mentioned that Allah is with the believers only, hence

Abu Bakr ÑÖí Çááå Úäå is a believer. And you can't exclude him from the verse we were talking earlier, as he is a believer.

Edited by kalaam

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Ibn Abbas said: "Once Umar was informed that Samra sold alcohol. Umar said: "May Allah curse Samra!" Allah's messenger said "May Allah curse the Jews for Allah had forbidden them to eat the fat of animals but they melted it and sold it"

Musnad Ahmed bin Hanbal, Volume 1 page 25 Tradition 170

Narrated al-Humaidi from Sufyan from Amr bin Dinar from Tawoos from Ibn ‘Abbas:

Once ‘Umar was informed that a certain man sold alcohol. ‘Umar said, “May Allah curse him! Doesn’t he know that Allah’s Apostle said, ‘May Allah curse the Jews, for Allah had forbidden them to eat the fat of animals but they melted it and sold it.”

Sahih Bukhari ,Volume 3, Book 34

Edited by Sheraz

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(bismillah)

(salam)

@Kalaam

Surah 58 Verse 7

58_7.png

Have you not regarded that Allah knows whatever there is in the heavens and whatever there is in the earth? There is no secret talk among three, but He is their fourth [companion], nor among five but He is their sixth, nor less than that, nor more, but He is with them wherever they may be. Then He will inform them about what they have done on the Day of Resurrection. Indeed Allah has knowledge of all things.

ãÇ íßæä ãä äÌæì ËáËÉ ÅáÇ åæ ÑÇÈÚåã æáÇ ÎãÓÉ ÅáÇ åæ ÓÇÏÓåã æáÇ ÃÏäì ãä Ðáß æáÇ ÃßËÑ ÅáÇ åæ ãÚåã Ãíä ãÇ ßÇäæÇ

Then if we move on and look at Surah 9 Verse 73-78

(73) O Prophet! Wage jihad against the faithless and the hypocrites, and be severe with them. Their refuge shall be hell, and it is an evil destination.

(74) They swear by Allah that they did not say it. But they certainly did utter the word of unfaith and renounced faith after their islam. They contemplated what they could not achieve, and they were vindictive only because Allah and His Apostle had enriched them out of His grace. Yet if they repent, it will be better for them; but if they turn away, Allah shall punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they shall not find on the earth any guardian or helper.

(75) Among them are those who made a pledge with Allah: ‘If He gives us out of His grace, we will surely give the zakat and we will surely be among the righteous.’

(76) But when He gave them out of His grace, they begrudged it and turned away, being disregardful.

(77) So He caused hypocrisy to ensue in their hearts until the day they will encounter Him, because of their going back on what they had promised Allah and because of the lies they used to tell.

Verse 78

9_78.png

Do they not know that Allah knows their secret [thoughts] and [hears] their secret talks, and that Allah is knower of all that is Unseen?

äÌæÇåã

From verses 73-78 we can see that the hypocrites can partake in äÌæì

In summary:

1. There is no äÌæì in which Allah (swt) is not with those partaking in äÌæì

2. The hypocrites (ãäÇÝÞíä) can partake in äÌæì

Therefore, if we take the verse of the companion of the cave to mean that Allah (swt) was with the Prophet [saww] and abu bakr, this does not prove that abu bakr was a believer (ãÄãä) since Allah (swt) is not only with the believers. He (swt) is also with those who partake in äÌæì and it is possible for a hypocrite (ãäÇÝÞ) to partake in äÌæì. This means that he is with the hypocrites (ãäÇÝÞíä) too. I don't see from where you understood that Allah (swt) is only with the believers (ÇáãÄãäíä)

Side note - I don't know if there is a specific meaning as to what Allah (swt) means when he says he is with the believers, and what he means when he says he is with those who partake in äÌæì, I personally would think that he doesn't mean the exact same thing - but these are just my thoughts on the meaning, I don't think it affects our discussion here.

[The translations of the Qur'an I used in this post were by Ali Quli Qara'i]

Edited by Shia_Debater

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(salam)

(bismillah)

This thread is only a friendly invitation to Farid. Generally, the Salafiyyah (and the Ahl al-Sunnah generally) rush to claim that they too love the Ahl al-Bayt (as). Farid, naturally, makes a similar claim. In fact, in recent days, I have seen him adding (as) after the names of the Ahl al-Bayt (as) to the exclusion of the other Sahābah. Though I find this very strange, coming from a Salafī, I deem it a very positive sign (not that I expect him to ever leave his religion).

It is commonly known that the qudaamah of the Sunnis used to put (as) after the names of the Ahl al-Bayt. If you look at the older nuskh, then you'll be able to see these things. Even the new publications of their books still have them.

(salam)

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(salam)

(bismillah)

It is commonly known that the qudaamah of the Sunnis used to put (as) after the names of the Ahl al-Bayt. If you look at the older nuskh, then you'll be able to see these things. Even the new publications of their books still have them.

(salam)

(salam)

Ibn Baaz uled against this:

Question:

I was looking though the subjects covered in the book Aqd Ad-Durar fee Akhbar Al-Muntathar ... in some of the narrations attributed to Ali bin Abi Talib, may Allaah be pleased with him, I find that they are written thus: It is reported on the authority of Ali bin Abi Talib, Alaihis-Salam (upon him be peace) that Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam) said: There will come forth a man from among my family with nine banners. What is the ruling on using this expression, I mean Alaihis-Salam (upon him be peace) or the like for other then the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam)?

Answer:

It is not appropriate to distinguish Ali with this saying. Rather, what is legislated is that it be said in his case and the case of other Companions: Radhi Allahu Anhu (may Allaah be pleased with him), Radhi Allahu Anhum (may Allaah be pleased with them) or: Rahimahullah (may Allaah have mercy on him). This is because there is no evidence for distinguishing him by it. Likewise is the expression used by some: Karram Allahu Wajhahu (may Allaah bless his countenance), there is no evidence for using it, nor is there any reason to distinguish him by it. It is best to treat him the same as the rest of the Well-Guided Caliphs and not to apply any special words to him which are not applied to the others, when there is no evidence to support it.

Shaykh `Abdul-`Azeez Bin Baz

Fatawa Islamiyah Vol. 1 Page 114

http://www.fatwaisla...?scn=fd&ID=1089

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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@ Shia debator

The verse you brought has no relation to the verses I mentioned. The verse you mentioned shows Allah's presence, that He is everywhere. The verses I showed means something deeper, I mentioned the verse

Indeed Allah is with the Momineen (the believers)

How can you relate the verse you mentioend to it, when the verse you mentioned shows only Allah's presence wherever people divulge in secret talk, while this verse tells much more than only Allah's presence with the Momineen. The meaning of this verse can be related to the verse in which Abu Bakr (ra) is mentioned.

I mentioned the verse

æáä ÊÛäí Úäßã ÝÆÊßã ÔíÆÇ æáæ ßËÑÊ æÇä Çááå ãÚ ÇáãÄãäíäæáä ÊÛäí Úäßã ÝÆÊßã ÔíÆÇ æáæ ßËÑÊ æÇä Çááå ãÚ ÇáãÄãäíä

Not the least good will your forces be to you even if they were multiplied: for verily God is with believers (Quran 8:19)

The address is towards the Unbelievers. Is Allah mentioning in this verse that I am with the believers in the sense that I am present with them? Of course not.

Similarly in this verse

ÇáÇ ÊäÕÑæå ÝÞÏ äÕÑå Çááå ÇÐ ÇÎÑÌå ÇáÐíä ßÝÑæÇ ËÇäí ÇËäíä ÇÐåãÇ Ýí ÇáÛÇÑ ÇÐ íÞæá áÕÇÍÈå áÇÊÍÒä Çä Çááå ãÚäÇ

If you fail to help the prophet, (Allah will)! Allah had certainly helped him when the unbelievers had driven him out (of the town). He was (at that time) one of the two. The two of them were (hiding) in a cave when he said to his companion, “Do not worry, Allah is with us.

Quran 9:40

Is Prophet Muhammad (s) just saying to his companion Abu Bakr (ra) in this verse that Do not be worried, Allah is present with us? But this presence of Allah is with the unbelievers as well. So what is special about it when he said to his companion that Allah is with us?

Think over it.

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Similarly in this verse

ÇáÇ ÊäÕÑæå ÝÞÏ äÕÑå Çááå ÇÐ ÇÎÑÌå ÇáÐíä ßÝÑæÇ ËÇäí ÇËäíä ÇÐåãÇ Ýí ÇáÛÇÑ ÇÐ íÞæá áÕÇÍÈå áÇÊÍÒä Çä Çááå ãÚäÇ

If you fail to help the prophet, (Allah will)! Allah had certainly helped him when the unbelievers had driven him out (of the town). He was (at that time) one of the two. The two of them were (hiding) in a cave when he said to his companion, “Do not worry, Allah is with us.

Quran 9:40

Is Prophet Muhammad (s) just saying to his companion Abu Bakr (ra) in this verse that Do not be worried, Allah is present with us? But this presence of Allah is with the unbelievers as well. So what is special about it when he said to his companion that Allah is with us?

Muhammad SAW said to abu bakr "do not despair,Allah is with us" . This means that Allah's help is with them both,because if one of them is caught,they are both caught. It has nothing to do with the status of abu bakr.

And this is actually against abu bakr because the verse says "áÇó ÊóÍúÒóäú Åöäóø ááóøåó ãóÚóäóÇ ÝóÃóäÒóáó ááóøåõ ÓóßöíäóÊóåõ Úóáóíúåö

Abu bakr was despairing,muhammad SAW was trying to calm him down by saying that Allah is helping them both.

How can a waliallah despair and fear death when he is with the prophet SAW and he believes in Allah? Despair means to give up and panic/become sad.

While this was occurring Ali (as) was sleeping in the bed of the prophet SAW ready to sacrifice his life.

Also,the verse again disproves his status by saying áÇó ÊóÍúÒóäú Åöäóø ááóøåó ãóÚóäóÇ ÝóÃóäÒóáó;ááóøåõ ÓóßöíäóÊóåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÃóíóøÏóåõ ÈöÌõäõæÏò áóøãú ÊóÑóæúåóÇ æóÌóÚóáó ßóáöãóÉó;áóøÐöíäó ßóÝóÑõæÇú ;áÓõøÝúáóì æóßóáöãóÉõ ;ááóøåö åöíó ;áúÚõáúíóÇ æóááóøåõ ÚóÒöíÒñ Íóßöíãñ

What does the verse say? It says "and Allah send down his tranquility upon him" .

Why didn't Allah send down his tranquility upon abu bakr as well and calm him down?

Why is it 3layhi and not 3layhuma ?

By the way I'm asking this question so you can answer it,please do not ignore it.

Think over it.

Edited by Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz

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Muhammad SAW said to abu bakr "do not despair,Allah is with us" . This means that Allah's help is with them both,because if one of them is caught,they are both caught. It has nothing to do with the status of abu bakr.

And this is actually against abu bakr because the verse says "áÇó ÊóÍúÒóäú Åöäóø ááóøåó ãóÚóäóÇ ÝóÃóäÒóáó ááóøåõ ÓóßöíäóÊóåõ Úóáóíúåö

Abu bakr was despairing,muhammad SAW was trying to calm him down by saying that Allah is helping them both.

How can a waliallah despair and fear death when he is with the prophet SAW and he believes in Allah? Despair means to give up and panic/become sad.

While this was occurring Ali (as) was sleeping in the bed of the prophet SAW ready to sacrifice his life.

Your argument is not right for a few reasons

1. According to Shias, Abu Bakr (ra) was a hypocrite. If he was indeed hypocrite, so he was the friend of Kuffar. So why would he fear the Kuffar? It proves that Abu Bakr (ra) was worried not for himself, but for the Prophet (as). If we suppose that he was not a staunch believer, why he accompanied the Prophet (s) in this life threatening time? If we suppose that he was a friend of kuffar in hidden (i.e a hypocrite), why would he fear from the kuffar getting nearer?

2. Even if he feared for himself, it doesn't make him a lesser believer. Haven't you read the story of Moses (as) in Quran

[020:065] They said, “Oh Musa, either you cast (your spell) first, or else let us be the first to cast (the spell).”

[020:066] (Musa) said, “No! You go first. Then suddenly, because of their spell, it appeared to him that their ropes and sticks (were snakes and) were creeping about swiftly.”

[020:067] A sense of fear came over Musa.

[020:068] We said, “Do not be afraid. You will be the one to triumph, for sure!”

3. If you say that Moses (as) feared that his nation might be deceived by this, similarly I say that Abu Bakr (ra) worried that the Kuffar may harm the Prophet (as)

4. The Prophet (as) said to Abu Bakr (ra) : La tahzan. The proper translation of it is "do not be worried" , it proves that Abu Bakr (ra) wasn't afraid, he worried, and he worried for the Prophet (as). In Quran, this word ÍÒä is used in cases when someone is worried for someone else, not for himself.

See the verse of Quran

æãä ßÝÑ ÝáÇ íÍÒäß ßÝÑå

And whoever disbelieves, let not his disbelief grieve you

Quran 31:23

Hence it is proved that Abu Bakr (ra) was not worried for himself, but he was worried for the Prophet (s), and he was worried that the Kuffar have become nearer the cave, and they may harm the Prophet (s).

Muhammad SAW said to abu bakr "do not despair,Allah is with us" . This means that Allah's help is with them both,because if one of them is caught,they are both caught. It has nothing to do with the status of abu bakr.

And this is actually against abu bakr because the verse says "áÇó ÊóÍúÒóäú Åöäóø ááóøåó ãóÚóäóÇ ÝóÃóäÒóáó ááóøåõ ÓóßöíäóÊóåõ Úóáóíúåö

Abu bakr was despairing,muhammad SAW was trying to calm him down by saying that Allah is helping them both.

How can a waliallah despair and fear death when he is with the prophet SAW and he believes in Allah? Despair means to give up and panic/become sad.

While this was occurring Ali (as) was sleeping in the bed of the prophet SAW ready to sacrifice his life.

Also,the verse again disproves his status by saying áÇó ÊóÍúÒóäú Åöäóø ááóøåó ãóÚóäóÇ ÝóÃóäÒóáó;ááóøåõ ÓóßöíäóÊóåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÃóíóøÏóåõ ÈöÌõäõæÏò áóøãú ÊóÑóæúåóÇ æóÌóÚóáó ßóáöãóÉó;áóøÐöíäó ßóÝóÑõæÇú ;áÓõøÝúáóì æóßóáöãóÉõ ;ááóøåö åöíó ;áúÚõáúíóÇ æóááóøåõ ÚóÒöíÒñ Íóßöíãñ

What does the verse say? It says "and Allah send down his tranquility upon him" .

Why didn't Allah send down his tranquility upon abu bakr as well and calm him down?

Why is it 3layhi and not 3layhuma ?

By the way I'm asking this question so you can answer it,please do not ignore it.

Think over it.

I have thought over it. I ask you one thing. Who needs tranquility? One who is worried, or one who is calm? When the Prophet (s) was already calm, why would be the tranquility sent upon him?

Edited by kalaam

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Aslamalaykum,

@Kalaam

I have not talked about matn at all, our discussion is on the sanad till now, and there are a large number of cases where the scholars said the sanad is sahih, but it didn't make the narrations as sahih. Do you deny this?

I agree, many scholars stated that the sanad is Sahih but that didn't vouch for the Matn being Sahih too but not in all cases.

Secondly your reasoning adds weight to what I am emphasising upon.

When the scholars say that the isnad is sahih without touching upon the matn, that could mean that the text is sound in their view since if they were to see a problem with the matn do you not think that they would point the defect out rather than leaving their readers under confusion and double sided thought?

And tell me what use is taking up the time to authenticate the isnad when the Matn is defective in their view?

There are pretty good examples out there where the scholars have authenticated the chains but have defected the Matn, can give you examples of this etc

If you look closely into the difference of Munkar and Shadh, you will not argue against what I am saying to you.

I hope you get my point.....

Also there are multiple routes for it, both mutaaba'at and Shawaahid, Yes some reports are mildly weak and together they can become Hasan li-Ghayrihi and And such strengthening method is used by majority if not all the scholars.

Indeed, the hypocrites woudn't be counted, for who was the hypocrite who rendered allegiance under the tree? There was no hypocrite there. And Abu Bakr (ra) was indeed a Momin i.e believer.

Allah has defined a believer who never doubts once he has believed and always obeys Allaah and His messenger.

If you are aware of the bayat ar-Ridhwan then you would also know that the Sahabah gave their word that they would not flee from the battle field.

But we all know many sahabah fled from many battle fields, especially Hunain which took place after the Baya beneath the tree, like I've mentioned previously in my posts.

With that in view, can we say that Allah was pleased with all the Sahabah when it is known that many were NOT loyal to their word?

If we say that he was pleased with all the believers who paid the baya then that would mean that Allah can become pleased when the believers do a good deed and displeased when they do wrong.

Or if Allah was pleased with some true believing Sahabah, then that would mean Allah was pleased with only those believers who showed loyalty in their words till their last breath and thus if you look at Abu Bakr's whole life you will see that he has made some terrible mistakes and which do not vouch for his faith as a believer.

Allah says in Quran

æÇä Çááå ãÚ ÇáãÄãäíä

Indeed Allah is with the believers

Similarly we also read in Quran

ÇáÇ ÊäÕÑæå ÝÞÏ äÕÑå Çááå ÇÐ ÇÎÑÌå ÇáÐíä ßÝÑæÇ ËÇäí ÇËäíä ÇÐåãÇ Ýí ÇáÛÇÑ ÇÐ íÞæá áÕÇÍÈå áÇÊÍÒä Çä Çááå ãÚäÇ

If you help him (Muhammad SAW) not (it does not matter), for Allah did indeed help him when the disbelievers drove him out, the second of two, when they (Muhammad SAW and Abu Bakr) were in the cave, and he (SAW) said to his companion (Abu Bakr): "Be not sad (or afraid), surely Allah is with us."

Now it is established , that at this time, Abu Bakr was with the Prophet (s), and at this occasion, Messenger of Allah said

Çä Çááå ãÚäÇ

Allah is with us

So it is proven, that Allah was with both of them. And in Quran, it is mentioned that Allah is with the believers only, hence

Abu Bakr ÑÖí Çááå Úäå is a believer. And you can't exclude him from the verse we were talking earlier, as he is a believer.

The statement that Allah is with us does not merit Abu Bakr since Allah is with everyone, If it was a merit then why did Allah exclude him from the Sakina?

As Ibn Ahmed also stated:

The prophet SAW was sent tranquility upon him by Allah,this is evident from the phrase "and we helped him with forces you did not see",this is referring to the angels support muhammad SAW.

Like you've said Kalaam Prophet s.a.w.w is always calm and we know this is the case but Allah swt at two different occasions has sent down his tranquility upon the Holy Prophet s.a.w.w so why are surprised that it was on this occasion too.

The question we ask again why was Abu Bakr denied tranquility if he was a believer in the eyes of Allah swt?

Edited by muslimunity1

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Your argument is not right for a few reasons

Ok lets see.

1. According to Shias, Abu Bakr was a hypocrite. If he was indeed hypocrite, so he was the friend of Kuffar. So why would he fear the Kuffar?

Who said that abu bakr was always bad? Perhaps he was always bad and an agent,or perhaps he wasn't,it doesn't affect us whatsoever.

The shia' do not say that he was always bad,rather we do indeed say he did good things. The intent of these actions he did in the beginning is only known to Allah. He appeared and maybe was just a normal Muslim,but he didn't come close to the rank of Imam ali (as) .

He may of feared the kuffar because of being killed along side muhammad SAW out of non-discrimination,or he may of feared for his life for becoming Muslim.

If we suppose that he was not a staunch believer, why he accompanied the Prophet (s) in this life threatening time?

Many average Muslims moved away from mecca for their lives. Many of them even became kuffar later on,including one of the writers of the Qur'an who left Muhammad SAW and went to join the kuffar again according to your madhab.

What does this have to do with him having a higher rank for moving away from mecca?

He accompanied the prophet SAW for protection because he wanted to leave mecca due to his beliefs. If he knew that this was going to happen to him he probably wouldn't of become Muslim in the first place.

If we suppose that he was a friend of kuffar in hidden (i.e a hypocrite), why would he fear from the kuffar getting nearer?

Again,he feared for his life. You have no proof to suggest otherwise.

It proves that Abu Bakr was worried not for himself, but for the Prophet .

He was worried for himself,you have no proof to suggest he was worried for the prophet SAW.

We will see if abu bakr was fearful of the prophet SAW.

2. Even if he feared for himself, it doesn't make him a lesser believer. Haven't you read the story of Moses in Quran

[020:065] They said, “Oh Musa, either you cast (your spell) first, or else let us be the first to cast (the spell).”

[020:066] (Musa) said, “No! You go first. Then suddenly, because of their spell, it appeared to him that their ropes and sticks (were snakes and) were creeping about swiftly.”

[020:067] A sense of fear came over Musa.

[020:068] We said, “Do not be afraid. You will be the one to triumph, for sure!”

Subhanallah,I find it amazing how you try to say that a prophet forsook Allah and despaired just to absolve abu bakr.

What was Musa (as) fearful of?

Nahjul-Balaqah, sermon 6

"The fear of Moses (a.s.) was for the effect of sorcery on the ignorant people." - Ali ibn abi talib (as)

:)

3. If you say that Moses feared that his nation might be deceived by this, similarly I say that Abu Bakr worried that the Kuffar may harm the Prophet

Very well we will see if the verse supports this.

4. The Prophet said to Abu Bakr : La tahzan. The proper translation of it is "do not be worried" , it proves that Abu Bakr wasn't afraid, he worried, and he worried for the Prophet . In Quran, this word ÍÒä is used in cases when someone is worried for someone else, not for himself.

Worry is ÞóáóÞ or

ÃóÔúÌóì

(verb)

1.First of all,lets see what the word means using the dictionary.

2.Then lets see how the dictionary uses the word.

3. Then lets see how the Qur'an uses the word.

By the way I want to say that what this person "kalam" saying is absurd. To say that the word "hzn" can only mean to despair for someone else and not from something or someone is non-sense and clearly wrong and shows this person's desperation.

Lets look at the dictionary

- ÍóÒöä

has nothing pleasant;sad;gloomy;miserable

- dejected;discouraged;despondent

- grievous;tormenting;agonizing

Almaany.com

Has nothing to do with only being sad for someone else.

Next we will see what E.W. lanes lexicon says,he uses various sources like lisan al arab.

http://ejtaal.net/m/...198,LS=2,HA=136

This dictionary says nothing that the word "hzn" can only mean to greive for someone else.

2. Lets see how he uses the word hzn.

"He was,or became,affected with hzn" end quote (meaning sadness,despair,lament)

For him to be greive for someone else or from someone else then the word

A7zanahu (something or someone greived him) is used instead.

"He(another personS,) or it, (an affair, or an event, or a case, msb,k) caused him to be affected with hzn. (which see below i.e. grieved him,or caused him to mourn or lament,or to be sorrowful or sad or unhappy" end qoute

3. Next lets see what the qur'an says about your theory.

Åöäóø ÇáóøÐöíäó ÞóÇáõæÇ ÑóÈõøäóÇ Çááóøåõ Ëõãóø ÇÓúÊóÞóÇãõæÇ ÝóáóÇ ÎóæúÝñ Úóáóíúåöãú æóáóÇ åõãú íóÍúÒóäõæäó

Indeed, those who have said, "Our Lord is Allah ," and then remained on a right course - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.

Has nothing to do with them fearing for someone else only.

I have thought over it. I ask you one thing. Who needs tranquility? One who is worried, or one who is calm? When the Prophet (s) was already calm, why would be the tranquility sent upon him?

The prophet SAW is worried about Islam,not himself. This is evident from the sentence "

Then Allah sent down on him His tranquillity and strengthened him with hosts which you did not see, and He made the word of those who disbelieved the lowest; and the word of Allah is the highest, and Allah is the Mighty, the Wise.”

1. Lets use the verse to see who the tranquility was sent upon.

2. Lets see what the sunni mufsireen say.

3. With both of these proofs,lets conclude how abu bakr did not fear for the prophet's life,and was not sent down tranquility.

1. áÇóø ÊóäÕõÑõæåõ ÝóÞóÏú äóÕóÑóåõ Çááøåõ ÅöÐú ÃóÎúÑóÌóåõ ÇáóøÐöíäó ßóÝóÑõæÇ ËóÇäöíó ÇËúäóíúäö ÅöÐú åõãóÇ Ýöí ÇáúÛóÇÑö ÅöÐú íóÞõæáõ áöÕóÇÍöÈöåö áÇÊóÍúÒóäú Åöäóø Çááøåó ãóÚóäóÇ ÝóÇóäúÒóáó Çááøåõ ÓóßöíäóÊóåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÃóíóøÏóåõ ÈöÌõäõæÏò áóãú ÊóÑóæúåóÇ æóÌóÚóáó ßóáöãóÉó ÇáóøÐöíäó ßóÝóÑõæÇ ÇáÓõøÝúáì æóßóáöãóÉõ Çááøåö åöíó ÇáúÚõáúíóÇ æóÇááøåõ ÚóÒöíÒñ Íóßöíã

The verse is obviously talking about the prophet being sent down tranquility because of the pronouns in the jumla "and Allah sent down upon him tranquility and support him with forces you cannot see"

What forces was abu bakr sent down?

This is referring to the forces sent down at badr to assist muhammad SAW,this proofs the jumla was in reference to the prophet SAW and not abu bakr.

2. Lets see what the sunni tafseers says.

Ibn katheer says the primary meaning is it was sent down for the prophet

"O Abu Bakr! What do you think about two with Allah as their third)'' This is recorded in the Two Sahihs. This is why Allah said, (Then Allah sent down His Sakinah upon him) sent His aid and triumph to His Messenger

tafseer ibn abbas says Then Allah caused His peace of reassurance) His tranquillity (to descend upon him) upon His Prophet (and supported him) helped him on the Day of Badr, at the battle of the troops and also on the Day of Hunayn (with hosts ye cannot see) i.e. with angels, (and made the word) the religion (of those who disbelieved the nethermost) blameworthy and defeated, (while Allah's word it was that became the uppermost) triumphant and praiseworthy. (Allah is Mighty) in retribution against his enemies, (Wise) in helping His friends.

3. If abu bakr was feared for the prophet's SAW life,surely wouldn't Allah send him down tranquility as well?

Edited by Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz

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Also I wanted to add to prove further that the muhammad SAW was the one in the sentence,the word junud means the following.

Troops,forces,army.

verses from the quran

áóÇ ØóÇÞóÉó áóäóÇ Çáúíóæúãó ÈöÌóÇáõæÊó

æóÌõäõæÏöåö = troops

æóÇÊúÑõßö ÇáúÈóÍúÑó ÑóåúæðÇ Åöäóøåõãú

ÌõäúÏñ ãõÛúÑóÞõæäó = army

æóáóãóøÇ ÈóÑóÒõæÇ áöÌóÇáõæÊó

æóÌõäõæÏöåö ÞóÇáõæÇ ÑóÈóøäóÇ ÃóÝúÑöÛú ÚóáóíúäóÇ ÕóÈúÑðÇ

= troops

Dictionary

troops ( Type: noun plural - Domain: military terms ) : soldiers or armed forces .

ÌõäúÏ - ÚóÓúßóÑ

Edited by Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz

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I agree, many scholars stated that the sanad is Sahih but that didn't vouch for the Matn being Sahih too but not in all cases.

Secondly your reasoning adds weight to what I am emphasising upon.

When the scholars say that the isnad is sahih without touching upon the matn, that could mean that the text is sound in their view since if they were to see a problem with the matn do you not think that they would point the defect out rather than leaving their readers under confusion and double sided thought?

And tell me what use is taking up the time to authenticate the isnad when the Matn is defective in their view?

There are pretty good examples out there where the scholars have authenticated the chains but have defected the Matn, can give you examples of this etc

If you look closely into the difference of Munkar and Shadh, you will not argue against what I am saying to you.

I hope you get my point.....

Also there are multiple routes for it, both mutaaba'at and Shawaahid, Yes some reports are mildly weak and together they can become Hasan li-Ghayrihi and And such strengthening method is used by majority if not all the scholars.

Let me make the issue simple for you. Either bring a narration in which there can be no criticism, or prove the narration as hasan li ghairihi accoring to the rules of science of hadith.

Allah has defined a believer who never doubts once he has believed and always obeys Allaah and His messenger.

If you are aware of the bayat ar-Ridhwan then you would also know that the Sahabah gave their word that they would not flee from the battle field.

But we all know many sahabah fled from many battle fields, especially Hunain which took place after the Baya beneath the tree, like I've mentioned previously in my posts.

With that in view, can we say that Allah was pleased with all the Sahabah when it is known that many were NOT loyal to their word?

If we say that he was pleased with all the believers who paid the baya then that would mean that Allah can become pleased when the believers do a good deed and displeased when they do wrong.

Or if Allah was pleased with some true believing Sahabah, then that would mean Allah was pleased with only those believers who showed loyalty in their words till their last breath and thus if you look at Abu Bakr's whole life you will see that he has made some terrible mistakes and which do not vouch for his faith as a believer.

Moses (as) also ran away from the battle with Pharaoh but later returned Don't you consider him a believer?

We read in Quran

ÝáãÇ ÑÇåÇ ÊåÊÒ ßÇäåÇ ÌÇä æáì ãÏÈÑÇ æáã íÚÞÈ

But when he saw it moving (of its own accord)as if it had been a snake, he turned back in retreat, and retraced not his steps

Quran 27:10

Shias consider Moses (as) a believer or not?

The statement that Allah is with us does not merit Abu Bakr since Allah is with everyone, If it was a merit then why did Allah exclude him from the Sakina?

As Ibn Ahmed also stated:

The prophet SAW was sent tranquility upon him by
Allah
,this is evident from the phrase "and we helped him with forces you did not see",this is referring to the angels support muhammad SAW.

Like you've said Kalaam Prophet s.a.w.w is always calm and we know this is the case but Allah swt at two different occasions has sent down his tranquility upon the Holy Prophet s.a.w.w so why are surprised that it was on this occasion too.

The question we ask again why was Abu Bakr denied tranquility if he was a believer in the eyes of Allah swt?

By going your logic, let me prove one more evidence for what I proved earlier the nobility of Abu Bakr (ra) from this verse

In this verse , it is mentioned that Prophet (s) said to his companion Abu Bakr (ra) : Allah is with us.

ÝáãÇ ÊÑÇÁ ÇáÌãÚÇä ÞÇá ÇÕÍÇÈ ãæÓì ÇäÇ áãÏÑßæä

ÞÇá ßáÇ Çä ãÚí ÑÈí ÓíåÏíä

[026:061] So when the two hosts saw each other, the companions of Musa cried out: Most surely we are being overtaken.

[026:062] He said: By no means; surely my Lord is with me: He will show me a way out.

Look, here Moses doesn't say my Lord is with us, why? Because he knew the people. But in the earlier verse Prophet (s) said : Indeed Allah is with us. Why? Because he knew that his companion is a firm believer.

Now as far as sakina is concerned, it was sent upon Abbas (ra) also at the occasion of Hunain.

See : Bihar ul anwar , Vol. 49, p. 199

But about the same Abbas (ra), Ali (ra) said as is mentioned in one of the earliest books of Shias

æáã íßä ãÚí ÃÍÏ ãä Ãåá ÈíÊí ÃÕæá Èå æáÇ ÃÞæì Èå¡ ÃãÇ ÍãÒÉ ÝÞÊá íæã ÃÍÏ¡ æÃãÇ ÌÚÝÑ ÝÞÊá íæã ãÄÊÉ¡ æÈÞíÊ Èíä ÌáÝíä ÌÇÝííä Ðáíáíä ÍÞíÑíä ÚÇÌÒíä: ÇáÚÈÇÓ æÚÞíá

there was no one with me from the people of my Household that I could attack by or derive strength from. As for Hamza , he was killed on the day of Badr, and as for Jafar, he was killed on the day of Muta, and I remained in between two weak ones, fearful ones, disgraced ones, lowly ones, helpless ones i.e Abbas and Aqeel

Sulaym bin Qais, p. 216

Similarly Baqir Majlisi mentions in his book Hayat ul Quloob

ßáíäì Èå ÓäÏ ÍÓä ÑæÇíÊ ßÑÏå ÇÓÊ ßå: ÓÏíÑ ÇÒ ÍÖÑÊ ÇÒ ÇãÇã ãÍãÏ ÈÇÞÑ (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÑÓíÏ ßå: ßÌÇ ÈæÏ ÚÒÊ æ ÔæßÊ æ ßËÑÊ Èäì åÇÔã ßå ÇÒ ÍÖÑÊ ÇãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÈÚÏ ÇÒ ÍÖÑÊ ÑÓÇáÊ ÇÒ ÇÈæÈßÑ æ ÚãÑ æ ÓÇíÑ ãäÇÝÞÇä ãÛáæÈ ÑÏíÏ¿ ÍÖÑÊ ÝÑãæÏ: ÇÒ Èäì åÇÔã ßå ãÇäÏå ÈæÏ! ÌÚÝÑ æ ÍãÒå ßå ÏÑ ÛÇíÊ ÇíãÇä æ íÞíÊ æ ÇÒ ÓÇÈÞíä Çæáíä ÈæÏäÏ Èå ÚÇáã ÈÞÇ ÑÍáÊ ßÑÏå ÈæÏäÏ æ Ïæ ãÑÏ

ÖÚíÝ ÇáíÞíä Ðáíá ÇáäÝÓ ÊÇÒå ãÓáãÇä ÔÏå ãÇäÏå ÈæÏäÏ ÚÈÇÓ æ ÚÞíá æ ÇíÔÇä ÑÇ ÏÑ Ìä ÈÏÑ ÇÓíÑ ßÑÏäÏ æ ÂÒÇÏ ßÑÏäÏ

Kulayni has narrated with hasan sanad that Sadir said: We were with abu Ja'afar (as) and he mentioned what the people did after the Prophet SAWS and how they humiliated Ameer al-Mumineen (as) so a man said to him: May Allah forgive you, where was the pride of bani Hashim and their big numbers? he (as) replied: Ja'afar and Hamza had passed away and only two men, weak in faith, and lowly personality, who are new to Islam remained and they were 'Abbas and 'Aqeel, they are freed prisoners..."

Hayat ul Quloob, Vol. 2, p. 618

This narration has been graded Hasan by Majlisi in Miratul Uqul and Behbudi has graded it sahih.

So Sakina was sent upon such people, so it shows that sakinah was sent upon people having weak faith as well.

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Who said that abu bakr was always bad? Perhaps he was always bad and an agent,or perhaps he wasn't,it doesn't affect us whatsoever.

The shia' do not say that he was always bad,rather we do indeed say he did good things. The intent of these actions he did in the beginning is only known to Allah. He appeared and maybe was just a normal Muslim,but he didn't come close to the rank of Imam ali (as) .

He may of feared the kuffar because of being killed along side muhammad SAW out of non-discrimination,or he may of feared for his life for becoming Muslim.

I can prove from your books that according to your scholars, Abu Bakr (ra) had never believed and they are unanimous on this issue. As far as your saying that he feared kuffar will kill him out of non discrimination, I guess you know that those were not the days of aerial firing, and there were only two in the cave. So how would he be killed out of non discrimination.

Many average Muslims moved away from mecca for their lives. Many of them even became kuffar later on,including one of the writers of the Qur'an who left Muhammad SAW and went to join the kuffar again according to your madhab.

What does this have to do with him having a higher rank for moving away from mecca?

He accompanied the prophet SAW for protection because he wanted to leave mecca due to his beliefs. If he knew that this was going to happen to him he probably wouldn't of become Muslim in the first place.

Subhan Allah. Now I will have to explain you what is the rank of those who migrated from Mecca to Madinah.

[009:100] Allah is well pleased with the foremost ones among the ‘mohajirs’ _ (those who migrated with the messenger from Makkah to Medina) and the ‘ansars’ _ (those who helped the ‘mohajirs’), and the others who followed them in good faith.

[016:041] And as for those who emigrated for the Cause of Allah, after suffering oppression, We will certainly give them goodly residence in this world, but indeed the reward of the Hereafter will be greater, if they but knew!

[022:058] Those who emigrated in the Cause of Allah and after that were killed or died, surely, Allah will provide a good provision for them.

Subhanallah,I find it amazing how you try to say that a prophet forsook Allah and despaired just to absolve abu bakr.

What was Musa (as) fearful of?

Nahjul-Balaqah, sermon 6

"The fear of Moses (a.s.) was for the effect of sorcery on the ignorant people." - Ali ibn abi talib (as)

Why Moses (as) ran away. See Quran 27:10

Worry is ÞóáóÞ or

ÃóÔúÌóì

(verb)

1.First of all,lets see what the word means using the dictionary.

2.Then lets see how the dictionary uses the word.

3. Then lets see how the Qur'an uses the word.

By the way I want to say that what this person "kalam" saying is absurd. To say that the word "hzn" can only mean to despair for someone else and not from something or someone is non-sense and clearly wrong and shows this person's desperation.

Lets look at the dictionary

- ÍóÒöä

has nothing pleasant;sad;gloomy;miserable

- dejected;discouraged;despondent

- grievous;tormenting;agonizing

Almaany.com

Has nothing to do with only being sad for someone else.

Next we will see what E.W. lanes lexicon says,he uses various sources like lisan al arab.

http://ejtaal.net/m/...198,LS=2,HA=136

This dictionary says nothing that the word "hzn" can only mean to greive for someone else.

2. Lets see how he uses the word hzn.

"He was,or became,affected with hzn" end quote (meaning sadness,despair,lament)

For him to be greive for someone else or from someone else then the word

A7zanahu (something or someone greived him) is used instead.

"He(another personS,) or it, (an affair, or an event, or a case, msb,k) caused him to be affected with hzn. (which see below i.e. grieved him,or caused him to mourn or lament,or to be sorrowful or sad or unhappy" end qoute

3. Next lets see what the qur'an says about your theory.

Åöäóø ÇáóøÐöíäó ÞóÇáõæÇ ÑóÈõøäóÇ Çááóøåõ Ëõãóø ÇÓúÊóÞóÇãõæÇ ÝóáóÇ ÎóæúÝñ Úóáóíúåöãú æóáóÇ åõãú íóÍúÒóäõæäó

Indeed, those who have said, "Our Lord is Allah ," and then remained on a right course - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.

Has nothing to do with them fearing for someone else only.

Simply stating, your arguments are not right. Thanks.

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^^Brother what is the grading of Hadith which talks about Sakina being sent on Abbas? Secondly the point of discussion is not whether Sakina can be sent to weak Faith, or strong Faith people. The point is it was only sent on one of them ,not both. And who the one is evident from the mention of angels coming to help, which ''you'' cannot see. Now obviously it was abubakr who can't see, and the one who can visualize the aid of Angels is our Prophet,(saww). So He,(saww) was the recipient of Sakina alone here, why wasn't it descended on both, that is the point.

And Moses,(as) didn't run from battlefield ,it was the sight of snake in the court which made him apprehensive for a while. He ddn;t retreat from a jihaad in the way of Allah, so this analogy can't be made.

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Kalam I have to say,I'm disappointed in your responses.

I can prove from your books that according to your scholars, Abu Bakr (ra) had never believed and they are unanimous on this issue. As far as your saying that he feared kuffar will kill him out of non discrimination, I guess you know that those were not the days of aerial firing, and there were only two in the cave. So how would he be killed out of non discrimination.

Actually that is no problem,because he could of joined Islam for many reasons just like other people who were proven to be munafiqeen who also migrated to medina. This is proven in ahlus sunnah books as well.

Can you show us please which scholars say that abu bakr was always a kafir?

Subhan Allah. Now I will have to explain you what is the rank of those who migrated from Mecca to Madinah.

[009:100] Allah is well pleased with the foremost ones among the ‘mohajirs’ _ (those who migrated with the messenger from Makkah to Medina) and the ‘ansars’ _ (those who helped the ‘mohajirs’), and the others who followed them in good faith.

[016:041] And as for those who emigrated for the Cause of Allah, after suffering oppression, We will certainly give them goodly residence in this world, but indeed the reward of the Hereafter will be greater, if they but knew!

[022:058] Those who emigrated in the Cause of Allah and after that were killed or died, surely, Allah will provide a good provision for them.

Lets look at these verses.

æóÇáÓóøÇÈöÞõæäó ÇáúÃóæóøáõæäó ãöäó ÇáúãõåóÇÌöÑöíäó æóÇáúÃóäÕóÇÑö æóÇáóøÐöíäó ÇÊóøÈóÚõæåõã ÈöÅöÍúÓóÇäò ÑóøÖöíó Çááóøåõ Úóäúåõãú æóÑóÖõæÇ Úóäúåõ æóÃóÚóÏóø áóåõãú ÌóäóøÇÊò ÊóÌúÑöí ÊóÍúÊóåóÇ ÇáúÃóäúåóÇÑõ ÎóÇáöÏöíäó ÝöíåóÇ ÃóÈóÏðÇ Ðóáößó ÇáúÝóæúÒõ ÇáúÚóÙöíãõ

9-100

The verse is clear,those who were the first Muslims among the muhajirun and the verse also mentions that "those who follow them in goodness".

The conditions are

1. Migrating for good cause,sincerity.

2. Being first converts among the muhajirun,the shi'i say that abu bakr wasn't among the first Muslims.

Also ahlus sunnah say that abu bakr wasn't the first of the immigrants,he immigrated later on under the protection of muhammad SAW.

Next verse.

[016:041] And as for those who emigrated for the Cause of Allah, after suffering oppression, We will certainly give them goodly residence in this world, but indeed the reward of the Hereafter will be greater, if they but knew!

and the last verse.

[022:058] Those who emigrated in the Cause of Allah and after that were killed or died, surely, Allah will provide a good provision for them.

The conditions for Allah's satisfaction is migrating for the sake of Allah,and not for other purposes according to all 3 of these verses.

What are some examples of people migrating and who were really bad in the end?

Abdullah ibn sad ibn abi sarh

For example in the rijal book of Ibn athir

Usûd Ulghâbah fi Ma'rifat Is-Sahâbah

He converted to Islam before the conquest of Mecca and immigrated to the Prophet(P) [i.e. in Medina]. He used to record the revelation for the Prophet(P) before he apostatized and went back to Mecca. Then he told Quraysh: 'I used to orient Muhammad wherever I willed, he dictated to me "All-Powerful All-Wise" and I suggest "All Knowing All-Wise" so he would say: "Yes, it is all the same."

He was a muhajir,what happened?

Why Moses (as) ran away. See Quran 27:10

Musa (as) was running away from the snake of fear of being bitten,not that Allah SWT would forsake him.

This has nothing to do with abu bakr fearing like a coward next to the prophet SAW,if he was a true believer he wouldn't do that.

Also you argument musa saying "allahu ma3iy" in contrast to "allahu ma3na" is irrelevant because both mean the same thing.

Because if Allah SWT is with Musa,and the people are with musa,then obviously the people are also receiving Allah's help.

You're trying to grasp for straws now....

Also you didn't answer my last post at all.

Simply stating, your arguments are not right. Thanks.

Thats all you have to say to a half page quote?

Edited by Ibn-Ahmed Aliyy Herz

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Ibn Baaz uled against this:

Question:

I was looking though the subjects covered in the book Aqd Ad-Durar fee Akhbar Al-Muntathar ... in some of the narrations attributed to Ali bin Abi Talib, may Allaah be pleased with him, I find that they are written thus: It is reported on the authority of Ali bin Abi Talib, Alaihis-Salam (upon him be peace) that Allaah's Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam) said: There will come forth a man from among my family with nine banners. What is the ruling on using this expression, I mean Alaihis-Salam (upon him be peace) or the like for other then the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu alaihi wa sallam)?

Answer:

It is not appropriate to distinguish Ali with this saying. Rather, what is legislated is that it be said in his case and the case of other Companions: Radhi Allahu Anhu (may Allaah be pleased with him), Radhi Allahu Anhum (may Allaah be pleased with them) or: Rahimahullah (may Allaah have mercy on him). This is because there is no evidence for distinguishing him by it. Likewise is the expression used by some: Karram Allahu Wajhahu (may Allaah bless his countenance), there is no evidence for using it, nor is there any reason to distinguish him by it. It is best to treat him the same as the rest of the Well-Guided Caliphs and not to apply any special words to him which are not applied to the others, when there is no evidence to support it.

Shaykh `Abdul-`Azeez Bin Baz

Fatawa Islamiyah Vol. 1 Page 114

http://www.fatwaisla...?scn=fd&ID=1089

Yes, I know of this ruling. Their main issue is using (as) only for Ali, and not for the other companions. But the phrase in it of itself attributing to Imam Ali or any of the Ahlul Bayt is not wrong, as long as you do not single them out and add it to other the sahabi

When reading the various rulings of the Salafiyyah, you'll see that this is a common answer regarding many issues, "do not single out etc."

(wasalam)

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Aslamalaykum,

@Aale Imran

I created a thread many years ago regarding the cave incident: Cave Incident In Surah Tawbah.

JazaakAllah akhee, brilliant thread/posts especially the way you covered the fear factor of Hazrat Moosa a.s etc

@Kalaam

Let me make the issue simple for you. Either bring a narration in which there can be no criticism, or prove the narration as hasan li ghairihi accoring to the rules of science of hadith.

The rules simply state that if the chains contain minor weaknesses then two can be combined together for strengthening. Two weak chain together can cause a report to be come Hasan li ghairihi.

If you think out claim is incorrect then prove us wrong, or are you arguing there is no more than one weak chain with regards to the report in view?

Don't be awkward and try looking into the matter yourself, we don't have time to prove the basics.

Moses (as) also ran away from the battle with Pharaoh but later returned Don't you consider him a believer?We read in Quran

ÝáãÇ ÑÇåÇ ÊåÊÒ ßÇäåÇ ÌÇä æáì ãÏÈÑÇ æáã íÚÞÈ

But when he saw it moving (of its own accord)as if it had been a snake, he turned back in retreat, and retraced not his steps

Quran 27:10

Shias consider Moses (as) a believer or not?

It's funny how sunnis use verses in their futile attempt to degrade the Prophets in order to save the companions and the some of the wives of the Holy Prophet s.a.w.w, we have already seen this failed attempt by Kalaam before in other thread.

As brother aale Imran has covered the aspect of fear of Moosa a.s brilliantly, I will just like to add another verse of the Quran that Prophets do not fear anyone/anything other than Allah swt and this is more clear verse to explain the qualities of the Messengers of Allah, rather than the ambiguous verse that you've have used.

33:39

(It is the practice of those) who preach the Messages of Allah, and fear Him, and fear none but Allah. And enough is Allah to call (men) to account.

Now allow me to ask you a question: Do Sunnis believe that the Moses was a messenger of Allah?

By going your logic, let me prove one more evidence for what I proved earlier the nobility of Abu Bakr (ra) from this verse

In this verse , it is mentioned that Prophet (s) said to his companion Abu Bakr (ra) : Allah is with us.

ÝáãÇ ÊÑÇÁ ÇáÌãÚÇä ÞÇá ÇÕÍÇÈ ãæÓì ÇäÇ áãÏÑßæä

ÞÇá ßáÇ Çä ãÚí ÑÈí ÓíåÏíä

[026:061] So when the two hosts saw each other, the companions of Musa cried out: Most surely we are being overtaken.

[026:062] He said: By no means; surely my Lord is with me: He will show me a way out.

Look, here Moses doesn't say my Lord is with us, why? Because he knew the people. But in the earlier verse Prophet (s) said : Indeed Allah is with us. Why? Because he knew that his companion is a firm believer.

In what sense did Moses say Allah is with me? Look at the following words: He will show me a way out, Meaning that Allah will NOT abandon him but will definitely INFORM him of the next step...

And then look at what Allah informed him of doing:

" Then We revealed to Musa (Moses) (saying): "Strike the sea with your stick." And it parted, and each separate part (of that sea water) became like huge mountain."

In the above sense it was appropriate to use such a terminology...

But in the earlier verse Prophet (s) said : Indeed Allah is with us. Why? Because he knew that his companion is a firm believer.

"With us" does not affirm merit UNLESS the Sakina issue is proven for him.

Besides have a look at the following verse, Allah is with us too:

He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawa) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, and what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is With you wheresoever you may be. And Allah is the All-Seer of what you do.

( ÓæÑÉ ÇáÍÏíÏ , Al-Hadid, Chapter #57, Verse #4)

Also like explained above Prophet Musa a.s said for a specific reason "Allah swt is with me", your not trying to imply that Hazrat Haroon a.s the Nabi, His family, companions were not with Him at that specific time? :D

Stop diverting the topic to Hazrat Abbas r.a or anyone else for that matter, right now we are discussing Abu Bakr ONLY, why was he deprived of tranquility if he was a believer?

Edited by muslimunity1

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