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Ali J

Why Is Slavery Permissible In Islam?

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If slaves ownership become legal with a proper strict system in place, most of the major world human problems would decrease substantially. To start with poverty, orphans, beggars, fornication, adultery, drugs, homosexuality, etc etc etc

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If slaves ownership become legal with a proper strict system in place, most of the major world human problems would decrease substantially. To start with poverty, orphans, beggars, fornication, adultery, drugs, homosexuality, etc etc etc

hopefuly that will never happen. ppl should not be owned by othre people. if anything the problems u mention will increase as the owners can force the slaves to do them.

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If slaves ownership become legal with a proper strict system in place, most of the major world human problems would decrease substantially. To start with poverty, orphans, beggars, fornication, adultery, drugs, homosexuality, etc etc etc

Oh so an orphan deserves to spend his/her life in bondage? Instead of wasting time and resources to put an organized slavery system into place perhaps you could use the same time and resources to build good quality orphanages that will protect, educate, and care for those children and prepare them for the world. You could do something similar for beggars.

Slavery will not stop homosexuality

Fornicators will still fornicate.

BTW you claim to be female...how would you like it if someone came and kidnapped you because they think your father did something haram or because of some tribal dispute? Then they sold you to a master, kept the profit and you had to bed that master every night. I mean after all he is feeding you and giving you nice clothes.....and he only hits you when you don't want to sleep with him.....tell me miss zameena how would you like it? Or how would you like that to happen to your small daugther or one of your sisters?

Drug addicts will still do drugs, slavery will not stop drugs there is no connection between the two and you obviously know nothing about addiction

Edited by ImAli

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BTW you claim to be female...how would you like it if someone came and kidnapped you because they think your father did something haram or because of some tribal dispute? Then they sold you to a master, kept the profit and you had to bed that master every night. I mean after all he is feeding you and giving you nice clothes.....and he only hits you when you don't want to sleep with him.....tell me miss zameena how would you like it? Or how would you like that to happen to your small daugther or one of your sisters?

How do you think the slaves of the Imams (as) felt about it?

And what about this:

Tabari recounts the story of Maria's arrival from Egypt:

In this year Hātib b. Abi Balta'ah came back from al-Muqawqis bringing Māriyah and her sister Sīrīn, his female mule Duldul, his donkey Ya'fūr, and sets of garments. With the two women al-Muqawqis had sent a eununch, and the latter stayed with them. Hātib had invited them to become Muslims before he arrived with them, and Māriyah and her sister did so. The Messenger of God lodged them with Umm Sulaym bt. Milhān. Māriyah was beautiful. The Prophet sent her sister Sīrīn to Hassān b. Thābit and she bore him 'Abd al-Rahmān b. Hassān.

—Tabari, History of the Prophets and Kings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya

For those who might want to argue that this is a Sunni source, we see that in our own sources Maria was also a slave girl:

1 – O prophet, why did you prohibit what Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? but Allah is forgiving, merciful

Tafsir al-Qummi: Ahmad b. Idris reported to us. He said: Ahmad b. Muhammad narrated to us from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from Ibn Sayyar from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام regarding His تعالى saying “O prophet, why did you prohibit what Allah has made lawful to you” (to the end of) the aya. He said: `A’isha and Hafsa found out about the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله while he was with Mariya. So the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله said: By Allah, I will not draw near her. So Allah commanded him to atone for his oath.

http://www.*******.org/tafsir/tashayyu/at-tahreem

Clearly this makes no sense if Maria was a wife of the Prophet (pbuh) just like Aisha and Hafsa.

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How do you think the slaves of the Imams (as) felt about it?

And what about this:

http://en.wikipedia....ria_al-Qibtiyya

For those who might want to argue that this is a Sunni source, we see that in our own sources Maria was also a slave girl:

1 – O prophet, why did you prohibit what Allah has made lawful to you, seeking to please your wives? but Allah is forgiving, merciful

Tafsir al-Qummi: Ahmad b. Idris reported to us. He said: Ahmad b. Muhammad narrated to us from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from Ibn Sayyar from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام regarding His تعالى saying “O prophet, why did you prohibit what Allah has made lawful to you” (to the end of) the aya. He said: `A’isha and Hafsa found out about the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله while he was with Mariya. So the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله said: By Allah, I will not draw near her. So Allah commanded him to atone for his oath.

http://www.tashayyu....ayyu/at-tahreem

Clearly this makes no sense if Maria was a wife of the Prophet (pbuh) just like Aisha and Hafsa.

LOL how original of you trying to turn this into a discussion of "insulting the imams" an old trick of yours.

Anyway IF the slave trade were to be made legal as you and zameena so desire where would one selling slaves get the slaves from to sell in the first place?

my guess is they would be acquired against the laws of Islam and the broken rules would be swept under the rug.....

Edited by ImAli

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LOL how original of you trying to turn this into a discussion of "insulting the imams" an old trick of yours.

I don't see how it's a trick. You can't criticise something done by the Imams (as) and then not expect to have to explain how you reconcile your beliefs with the fact that they did exactly what you are criticising.

Anyway IF the slave trade were to be made legal as you and zameena so desire where would one selling slaves get the slaves from to sell in the first place?

my guess is they would be acquired against the laws of Islam and the broken rules would be swept under the rug.....

Nobody is advocating acquiring slaves against the rules of Islam, and this is something that should be prevented. However whether the slave trade is made legal or not, it doesn't change the fact that slaves do exist, and there is no good Islamic reason for saying it should be haram for Muslims to buy them, in principle at least.

By the way, and I'm sorry to use this 'old trick' again, but the slaves owned by almost all the Imams (as) would have originally been acquired against the laws of Islam as well. Funny how they didn't make a stand, and tell their followers that sure 'illegally acquired' slaves should not be purchased, or at least refrained from purchasing them themselves.

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Anyway IF the slave trade were to be made legal as you and zameena so desire where would one selling slaves get the slaves from to sell in the first place?

How about the pro-slavery gang put money where the mouth is. They should volunteer themselves to be enslaved, being rapped and beaten daily. And then share your wonderful insights into slavery.

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How about the pro-slavery gang put money where the mouth is. They should volunteer themselves to be enslaved, being rapped and beaten daily. And then share your wonderful insights into slavery.

haha good point!

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How about the pro-slavery gang put money where the mouth is. They should volunteer themselves to be enslaved, being rapped and beaten daily. And then share your wonderful insights into slavery.

How about you guys share your thoughts on the Prophet (pbuh) and Imams (as) having slaves, and on how the Qur'an (and ahadith) says that it is permissible for a master to sleep with his kafir slave even if she is married? In fact, seeing as this is an Islamic forum, how about you guys actually make any reference at all to Islam in your arguments? That would make a refreshing change.

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How about you guys share your thoughts on the Prophet (pbuh) and Imams (as) having slaves, and on how the Qur'an (and ahadith) says that it is permissible for a master to sleep with his kafir slave even if she is married? In fact, seeing as this is an Islamic forum, how about you guys actually make any reference at all to Islam in your arguments? That would make a refreshing change.

i never knew they had slaves but if this is in fact true then i realy need to do some serios thinking becuz i dont agree with it.

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How about you guys share your thoughts on the Prophet (pbuh) and Imams (as) having slaves, and on how the Qur'an (and ahadith) says that it is permissible for a master to sleep with his kafir slave even if she is married? In fact, seeing as this is an Islamic forum, how about you guys actually make any reference at all to Islam in your arguments? That would make a refreshing change.

So if you were a slave on the market, and Gypsy bought you, and made you do whatever she wanted... cook, clean, build her house, babysit her children, no TV, no SC privileges, no property, and didn't allow you to get married for the rest of your life etc. You wouldn't curse her in your sleep? Knowing full well of course that she is well within her islamic rights to demand all that and more out of you. You would be provided basic sustenance though, and also allowed to rest during the hottest parts of the day. Sounds like an awesome deal.

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How about you guys share your thoughts on the Prophet (pbuh) and Imams (as) having slaves, and on how the Qur'an (and ahadith) says that it is permissible for a master to sleep with his kafir slave even if she is married? In fact, seeing as this is an Islamic forum, how about you guys actually make any reference at all to Islam in your arguments? That would make a refreshing change.

Some people, such as yourself, copy pasta ahadith and don't think beyond that

Other people imagine what it would be like in the shoes of the oppressed

Edited by ImAli

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I won't hold my breath for the Islamic arguments then...

i never knew they had slaves but if this is in fact true then i realy need to do some serios thinking becuz i dont agree with it.

I take it you haven't read the Qur'an either then?

Some people, such as yourself, copy pasta ahadith and don't think beyond that

Other people imagine what it would be like in the shoes of the oppressed

No, what some of us do is try to make sure our morals are in line with the religion we claim to follow.

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No, what some of us do is try to make sure our morals are in line with the religion we claim to follow.

:cry:

I'm going to hell...I don't believe in slavery.

you should team up with this clown

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Still dodging the question I see. Why not just come out and say you disagree with Allah سبحانه وتعالى, the Prophet (pbuh), and the Imams (as)?

Go ahead HH keep accusing me of being immoral because I am a compassionate person and don't believe in owning another human....keep it up.

I never get tired of hearing this pet phrase of yours

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yeah i have. have u?

Yes, I have. Did you skip over all the verses that deal with slavery? Such as this one for example:

O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [Qur'an 33:50, Shakir]

Go ahead HH keep accusing me of being immoral because I am a compassionate person and don't believe in owning another human....keep it up.

I never get tired of hearing this pet phrase of yours

Why do you refuse to answer a straightforward question? At least when I am asked a question, I give a straight answer.

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Why do you refuse to answer a straightforward question? At least when I am asked a question, I give a straight answer.

I am only twisting words in the same manner you do it....it's annoying isn't it?

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Yes, I have. Did you skip over all the verses that deal with slavery? Such as this one for example:

O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [Qur'an 33:50, Shakir]

Why do you refuse to answer a straightforward question? At least when I am asked a question, I give a straight answer.

it says prisoner or war, not slave. i dont agree with it though if it means slave. i dont belive a person should own another person.

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I am only twisting words in the same manner you do it....it's annoying isn't it?

No, you are just making it look like you don't want to face the consequences of your beliefs.

it says prisoner or war, not slave. i dont agree with it though if it means slave. i dont belive a person should own another person.

'Those who your right hand possesses' in the Qur'an means slave.

"those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war"

What else do you think it could mean here anyway? Something possessed out of those given to you as prisoners of war. Hmm. I wonder what that could be?

As for what you believe, maybe you need to be less simplistic and try to think outside the box of modern Western society.

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At least when I am asked a question, I give a straight answer.

No you don't:

Would you be okay with your brother/father owning a slave girl, not allowing her to get married, working her 14 hours a day, owning all her possessions, using her for sex, restricting all kinds of access to worldly things? Of course she would be provided basic sustenance etc and given rest during the hottest parts of the day. It would technically be all legal under islamic law.

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As I've pointed out in the slavery threads in the past, you can't automatically say it is an outrageous concept, for the following reasons.

1. It can take many forms

2. You are basing your assessment on the idea that the 21st century world you live in is normal. It isn't.

1. Slavery is basically a form of contract between two people and clearly how it is implemented can vary in terms of the rights of the slave and the terms under which they work.

2. This point addresses the challenge that gypsy makes above. Would I willingly go into slavery? Yes. If I had been captured in battle and the alternative was death. Yes again, if there was some extreme natural event that took away any means I had for sustenance and this was the only means of ensuring survival.

There have been reports recently about Greek women abandoning kids and that's a modern European country which has had a relatively short and not very extreme economic shock. At least there are working churches and other institutions to take the kids.

What would happen if it were more extreme and went on for longer? Much longer?

One of the means by which people became slaves in ancient societies was because they were sold into it by their parents. Perhaps it ensured physical survival for both?

There's a lot of 'euw', 'yuck', 'what an awful idea' being bandied about here, without any form of analysis as to the circumstances under which it happened and why it may have been preferable to the alternatives.

Edited by Haji 2003

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1. Slavery is basically a form of contract between two people and clearly how it is implemented can vary in terms of the rights of the slave and the terms under which they work.

What contract????? If you are born a slave, what contract have you signed or entered into of your own accord??? It takes 2 parties to make a contract. Who on earth would WANT to be a slave? Maybe a handful, wanting to serve the imams etc.

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What contract????? If you are born a slave, what contract have you signed or entered into of your own accord??? It takes 2 parties to make a contract. Who on earth would WANT to be a slave? Maybe a handful, wanting to serve the imams etc.

Contract between whoever sold your parents into slavery and the slave owner. He's in a risk-taking position here. He has had to pay upfront for you. If you die, fall ill, or are incapacitated for any other reason he loses out big-time.

See the letter by the famous Roman philosopher Seneca, treating slaves well would be rational behaviour:

The result of it all is that these slaves, who may not talk in their master's presence, talk about their master. But the slaves of former days, who were permitted to converse not only in their master's presence, but actually with him, whose mouths were not stitched up tight, were ready to bare their necks for their master, to bring upon their own heads any danger that threatened him; they spoke at the feast, but kept silence during torture. Finally, the saying, in allusion to this same highhanded treatment, becomes current: "As many enemies as you have slaves." They are not enemies when we acquire them; we make them enemies.

http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/gruffini/cl116/seneca.epist.47.htm

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There have been reports recently about Greek women abandoning kids and that's a modern European country which has had a relatively short and not very extreme economic shock. At least there are working churches and other institutions to take the kids.

What would happen if it were more extreme and went on for longer? Much longer?

So what if it went on for much longer? If someone abandons their kids, we should take them in as slaves?

One of the means by which people became slaves in ancient societies was because they were sold into it by their parents. Perhaps it ensured physical survival for both?

They were sold into it by their parents so they could be exploited further, perhaps they wouldnt survive at all with their parents, just because someone's conditions improve doesn't make it right or moral.

2. This point addresses the challenge that gypsy makes above. Would I willingly go into slavery? Yes. If I had been captured in battle and the alternative was death. Yes again, if there was some extreme natural event that took away any means I had for sustenance and this was the only means of ensuring survival.

Respond with a yes or no to the same question I posed to Haydar Hussain.

There's a lot of 'euw', 'yuck', 'what an awful idea' being bandied about here, without any form of analysis as to the circumstances under which it happened and why it may have been preferable to the alternatives.

There is an understanding here, we do understand and appreciate that for its time, Islam took commendable steps to lessen the hardships faced by slaves, but given islamic is for all times, why was it not condemned and abandoned all together? So we could avoid what obviously seems like abuse/oppression under certain circumstances totally legal under the sharia.

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No, you are just making it look like you don't want to face the consequences of your beliefs.

'Those who your right hand possesses' in the Qur'an means slave.

"those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war"

What else do you think it could mean here anyway? Something possessed out of those given to you as prisoners of war. Hmm. I wonder what that could be?

As for what you believe, maybe you need to be less simplistic and try to think outside the box of modern Western society.

it could mean slave but even so there is no way i can except a human owning a human is rihgt.

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No you don't:

Would you be okay with your brother/father owning a slave girl, not allowing her to get married, working her 14 hours a day, owning all her possessions, using her for sex, restricting all kinds of access to worldly things?

Yes, I would be ok with them owning a slave girl. If it was ok for the Imams (as), why wouldn't it be ok for normal believers?

I don't know if it's the case that the slave is not entitled to any possessions though. This seems unlikely to me, since slaves are allowed to buy their own freedom (as mentioned in the Qur'an below). How could they do that if they couldn't have possessions of their own?

And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [Qur'an 24:33, Shakir]

This verse also seems to indicate that a master should help a slave acquire his freedom out of his own wealth, provided he knows good in them.

Of course she would be provided basic sustenance etc and given rest during the hottest parts of the day. It would technically be all legal under islamic law.

Being clothed and fed in the same way as the master is basic sustenance?

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There is an understanding here, we do understand and appreciate that for its time, Islam took commendable steps to lessen the hardships faced by slaves, but given islamic is for all times, why was it not condemned and abandoned all together? So we could avoid what obviously seems like abuse/oppression under certain circumstances totally legal under the sharia.

This is the only point worth discussing IMHO.

You have to bear in mind that it is economic and physical necessity that can cause slavery.

It is not Islam which is doing this.

The fallacy that people are falling into here is that you cannot comprehend the circumstances in which such causes may exist. But just because you cannot comprehend them does not mean that they can't exist in the future.

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Contract between whoever sold your parents into slavery and the slave owner. He's in a risk-taking position here. He has had to pay upfront for you. If you die, fall ill, or are incapacitated for any other reason he loses out big-time.

LOL are you kidding me? The owner is in a high risk position? What about the poor slave? I suppose that isnt risky enough, since he is pretty much guaranteed most of his freedoms will be suppressed.

See the letter by the famous Roman philosopher Seneca, treating slaves well would be rational behaviour:

That is common sense, this is how corporations work today, they offer more incentives and benefits so they can get more out of their workforce while still exploiting them and waging a vicious war on the working class. To the extent the workers are able to free themselves and work independently of ownership, they are freeing themselves, shifting the entire dynamic of the slave/owner relationship. This is why the working struggle is at the heart of the struggle for democracy.

This still says nothing about the institutional framework upon which a slave/master relationship exists, masters can be kind to their slaves, but they don't have to be, and it would still all be legal under islamic law. Also the history of slavery (islamic as well as western) clearly demonstrates how kind slave owners typically have been to their slaves. Almost always, the authority a slave owner has over his slave is abused.

I don't know if it's the case that the slave is not entitled to any possessions though. This seems unlikely to me, since slaves are allowed to buy their own freedom (as mentioned in the Qur'an below). How could they do that if they couldn't have possessions of their own?

And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [Qur'an 24:33, Shakir]

This verse also seems to indicate that a master should help a slave acquire his freedom out of his own wealth, provided he knows good in them.

Again he should help, but he doesn't have to. And yes, I wonder how a slave is to free himself if he is kept from having any material wealth of his own.

Yes, I would be ok with them owning a slave girl. If it was ok for the Imams (as), why wouldn't it be ok for normal believers?

Thanks for being honest, it is good to know that you would stand by your islamic principles and be cool with your brother/father denying a girl marriage, working her 14 hours a day, and using her for sex on a daily basis.

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This is the only point worth discussing IMHO.

You have to bear in mind that it is economic and physical necessity that can cause slavery.

It is not Islam which is doing this.

The fallacy that people are falling into here is that you cannot comprehend the circumstances in which such causes may exist. But just because you cannot comprehend them does not mean that they can't exist in the future.

Yes certain economic conditions can cause slavery, just like certain conditions can cause dictatorships and massive abuse from the top. This doesn't mean that slavery HAS to exist. It doesn't, under no circumstances. If a mine needs to be dug, the work can be done under voluntary association given the circumstances etc. Why should we sit here and accept it? Why institutionalize it and defend it? Why not condemn it outright and make sure we do what we can to eradicate it. The simply fact of the matter is, the relationship between the the two "contractual" parties as you put it, is unequal, one has authority over the other, and it is bound to be abused.

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No, you are just making it look like you don't want to face the consequences of your beliefs.

What consequences? If you think the fact that I am against slavery means I am an apostate just admit it....I could care less what you think. I just thank god that most people in this world have more empathy than the likes of certain members on this forum.

Edited by ImAli

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This is the only point worth discussing IMHO.

You have to bear in mind that it is economic and physical necessity that can cause slavery.

It is not Islam which is doing this.

The fallacy that people are falling into here is that you cannot comprehend the circumstances in which such causes may exist. But just because you cannot comprehend them does not mean that they can't exist in the future.

Yeah, I've come back a bit on this one myself. Though I still believe as much as before that, given the institutions and resources and wealth of today, there is no justification currently or slavery to exist; de facto, it is obsolete.

I am no longer as confident though that that social/economic/technological/cultural change is irreversible.

One of those things that makes society and institutions run is money. We are in the process right now of virtualizing money. On the big scale of international money transfers and cheque payments and interbank transfers, money is just numbers in computers. On the consumer side, plastic cards, whether debit or credit, take up an increasing share of transactions. We move to a post cash reality. But if those electronic networks should collapse in a great war or economic collapse? What then? We are back to labour as the unit of value, no? And in such a reality it is not hard to imagine something like Islamic slavery returning. Or maybe, having been over the hump of abolition, it will be possible to come up with something else, something more sophisticated.

But, still, it is hard to imagine something substantially different from the exchange of labour and loyalty for food, clothing, and shelter, particularly should central power ever collapse, as it likely would in such a case.

Edited by kadhim

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Yeah, I've come back a bit on this one myself. Though I still believe as much as before that, given the institutions and resources and wealth of today, there is no justification currently or slavery to exist; de facto, it is obsolete.

Just to kick around an idea.

In 2008 there were over 64,000 abortions in the U.S. of babies from week 16 of pregnancy to week 32 (it's shocking how well-developed they are at that stage).

In another age an option would have been to give the babies into slavery.

Compared to abortion, I'd say that slavery would be the more moral option. The baby gets a life, and its descendants likely would be free.

Which is better than being dead IMHO.

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Just to kick around an idea.

In 2008 there were over 64,000 abortions in the U.S. of babies from week 16 of pregnancy to week 32 (it's shocking how well-developed they are at that stage).

In another age an option would have been to give the babies into slavery.

Compared to abortion, I'd say that slavery would be the more moral option. The baby gets a life, and its descendants likely would be free.

Which is better than being dead IMHO.

I know what you are trying to say, it is the same argument made by slave owners of the past, and also modern capitalists today. No offence bro, but it is a terrible argument, just because something improves conditions, doesn't mean it is justified, moral, right or acceptable.

It isn't even the lesser of two evils, the cases you are referring to, or project down the road, there are always better alternatives. There is abortion, there is slavery, and you forgot the rest.

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