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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Real Reason Shia Hate Omar Al Khattab (ra)

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musab

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lol, is this that Musab that said jumah mubarak is bidah, lol apparently raising hands while doing dua is also Bida!!!!

Hey everybody this is Musab! :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWkPnqWisCo&feature=related

naa people like him believe its haraam to discuss with shia or to be friends with them.

they would rather drink alcohol than talk with shia of ahlulbayt (as).

Edited by ThE-Samz
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this guy is a salafi im not why do shia always want a video taken down

that they dont like do you not like your imams their are no bakris as you

call them in this video whats wrong.

ban him ban him lock it lock it how about debating it.

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The guy in video is talking nonsense, well if you like videos then I can post some good videos about your Scholars :lol:

oh i would not do that if i were you i think you know why i dont want your running off crying

with embarrassment lets not get into that war cause you know who will come out the loser.

Edited by musab
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this guy is a salafi im not why do shia always want a video taken down

that they dont like do you not like your imams their are no bakris as you

call them in this video whats wrong.

ban him ban him lock it lock it how about debating it.

its better then to stop ignorance at its place, then to let it continue :)

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I think there is definitely an inferior complex issue that the shias have when it come to umar ra. The animosity towards him is much more than abu bakr ra or uthman ra. I dont know if its because he conquered Persia or because of fabricated attrocities. You only need to do a search of what has been said about umar ra on this forum - most I feel ashamed to even think about and yet some members here have no qualm posting on a public forum.

At the end of they day history speaks for itself when it comes to umar ra - alhamdullilah I am on the right path.

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^^^

Ibrahim786, are you for real? Can I ask (please don't take this the wrong way as my intention is not to be condescending) but how old are you?

Umar is disliked because he went to the house of Ali (as) and demanded he pay allegiance to Abu Bakr even though he was present at Ghadir when Paak Nabi (saaw) made it clear that Ali (as) was the successor.

He caused death and injury during this visit. He also schemed for power and changed the Sharia. He was a violent, temperamental person (read sunni narration/tareekh about his behaviour towards his sister when she accepted Islam) and he didn't fight in any battles during the timeframe of Paak Nabi (saaw). He did turn up but there is no record of him killing a single kafir.

History does speak. Any objective record of him is not complimentary and biased viewpoints count for nothing.

There is NO inferiority complex. Comparing him to Maula Ali (as) is like comparing coarse rocks to gleaming diamonds.

ALI

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^^^

Ibrahim786, are you for real? Can I ask (please don't take this the wrong way as my intention is not to be condescending) but how old are you?

Umar is disliked because he went to the house of Ali (as) and demanded he pay allegiance to Abu Bakr even though he was present at Ghadir when Paak Nabi (saaw) made it clear that Ali (as) was the successor.

He caused death and injury during this visit. He also schemed for power and changed the Sharia. He was a violent, temperamental person (read sunni narration/tareekh about his behaviour towards his sister when she accepted Islam) and he didn't fight in any battles during the timeframe of Paak Nabi (saaw). He did turn up but there is no record of him killing a single kafir.

History does speak. Any objective record of him is not complimentary and biased viewpoints count for nothing.

There is NO inferiority complex. Comparing him to Maula Ali (as) is like comparing coarse rocks to gleaming diamonds.

ALI

Just do a search on umar ra on this forum and you will see the abuse towards this great personality in my opinion goes even beyond amir muawiyah. Maybe this is not the case with you - but you are unaware of the filthy accusations against al farooq ra on this forum. This is nothing to do with the incident you mention but just down to pure hatred !!!

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Just do a search on umar ra on this forum and you will see the abuse towards this great personality in my opinion goes even beyond amir muawiyah. Maybe this is not the case with you - but you are unaware of the filthy accusations against al farooq ra on this forum. This is nothing to do with the incident you mention but just down to pure hatred !!!

CAN U PLEASE LIST FEW THINGS, WHAT THIS GREAT PERSONALITY HAS DONE FOR ISLAAM?

PLEASE LIST SOME THING CONSTRUCTIVE, OTHER THEN BURNING OF QURAAN,KILLING AND DESTRUCTION DONE BY HIM.

Edited by yamolaAlimadad
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CAN U PLEASE LIST FEW THINGS, WHAT THIS GREAT PERSONALITY HAS DONE FOR ISLAAM?

PLEASE LIST SOME THING CONSTRUCTIVE, OTHER THEN BURNING OF QURAAN,KILLING AND DESTRUCTION DONE BY HIM.

now that sounds not very constructive.

umar ra was the right hand man of the prophet pbuh since he embraced islam - the first thing he said to the prophet pbuh daarul arqam was why do we hide our religion and with his and hamzah ra conversion the muslims were strong and confident and went out openly. First thing umar ra did was to go to abu jahl who was the pharaoh of this ummah and told him I am a muslim then he went to the makkans and said to them if anyone wants their child to be an orphan, their wife to be a widow and their parents greiving over their dead son come and fight me if you have a problem with my islam - subhannallah. he ra was the prophets right hand man and named him al farooq and till this day he is buried next to the prophet pbuh. after abu bakr ra he shone the most and his khalifah was a great blessing to this ummah. there is so much that can be said about umar ra just like any other sahabi - if you are sincere to learn about him then please watch on youtube the biography of umar ra or check www.edars.com for history of sahabah

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Yamolalimadad

CAN U PLEASE LIST FEW THINGS, WHAT THIS GREAT PERSONALITY HAS DONE FOR ISLAAM?

PLEASE LIST SOME THING CONSTRUCTIVE, OTHER THEN BURNING OF QURAAN,KILLING AND DESTRUCTION DONE BY HIM.

Ayubi786

Burning quran and killing??? Heresay!! Lies!!

The great personality Umar Faruq RA;

ACHIEVEMENTS

Umar ibn Al-Khattab established many institutions in the Islamic state's administration. Historians have called his reforms as innovations. The achievements of Umar ibn Al-Khattab are numerous. The most important achievements are listed below:

Umar ibn Al-Khattab established the public treasury: Bait-ul-Mal

Established courts of justice and appointed judges.

Proposed and enforced use of the era of Hijra.

Assumed the title of Amir-ul-Mu'minin.

To engage the anti-Islamic forces he organized and established the War Department.

Placed army reserves on the pay-roll. In addition to this, Umar Ibn Al-Khattab improved the army administration by providing every army corps with an officer of the treasury, an accountant, and number of interpreters, physicians and surgeons. He instructed the army commanders to submit accounts of war expenditures and list of the spoils of war. Historical records show that in 16 Hijri Ziyad bin Abi Sufyan came from city of Jalula Ð after its conquest - and brought with him the records of the accounts to Madinah and submitted them for Umar ibn Al-Khattab's perusal and review.

Established Land Revenue Department, ordered survey and assessment of lands and also ordered conducting census. This required maintenance of the land revenue records in Persian, Syriac and Coptic languages. The accounts were kept on long rolled-up sheets.

Founded cities: Kufah, Basrah, Jazirah, Fustat and Musal and undertook construction and building of canals.

Divided conquered countries into provinces.

Ordered collecting customs duties. 

Appointed officials for the collection of tax on the produce of sea.

Gave permission to traders from foreign countries to conduct business in the Islamic territory.

Organized jails and enforced use of the whip.

Made rounds at night to gauge and evaluate the condition of the people. For relaxations he enjoyed lighter pursuits including poetry. Once he asked Abdullah bin Abbas to recite him poetry the whole night. At the time when dawn was breaking, he said, "Now recite the Holy Qur'an." During one of his night rounds around the city he heard the sound of music. He stopped and listened to the music and then moved on. 

Established military cantonments and had them located at strategic points. 

Organized Police Department.

Set up a system to classify pedigree and non-pedigree horses.

Built houses on the road from Makkah to Madinah for the comfort of the travelers and also established guest-houses in different cities. At that time a system was established for the clearance of land, construction of roads, building of bridges and other operations which are carried out by sappers and miner in present day armies. The local people of the lands were recruited to perform these duties. 

Provided stipends for the poor Jewish and Christian people.

Established schools and provided salaries for school teachers and public lecturers. 

Proposed the principle of Qiyas and its formulation.

Proposed exact division of inheritance.

Proposed and inserted additional statement "Prayer is better than sleep" in the call for Fajr prayers.

Ordained performing taraweeh prayers in congregation.

Established law for the punishment of alcohol drinkers with eighty lashes.

Proposed a method for preparing trusts.

Obtained consensus of opinion for saying four takbirs in funeral prayer.

Made arrangements for providing lights in mosques at night. It is stated that until the Khilafate of Umar ibn Al-Khattab there were no arrangements for lights in the mosques. A person by name Tamim Dari made the arrangements and supplied lamps for the mosques with Umar ibn Al-Khattab's permission.

By Michael Hart

Michael H. Hart wrote a book entitled "THE 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History" in 1978. Several other authors have written similar books but this still remains a distinguished book in it's category. The book is thought provoking and encourages the reader to see history from different perspectives.

He chose Prophet Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons which was surprising to many people. He said he chose Muhammad because he was the only person in the history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels. Michael Hart went on to count the traits and qualities of Prophet Muhammad and his overall impact on human history and arrived at the conclusion that Prophet Muhammad should be the number one person in the filed of 100 influential persons in human history.

Another surprise to many people was Michael Hart's choice of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab among the 100 influential persons, whom he not only included among these 100 persons but also put him as number two on the second half (51 to 100) of his choice. Umar Ibn Al-Khattab is 52nd on the list. He ranked him higher than such famous men as Charlemagne and Julius Caesar. He further says that Umar's brilliant leadership was responsible for the expansion of the Islamic territory and the enormous extent that it did occur under him. He further says that Umar Ibn Al-Khattab ordered the Muslim armies to leave the natives of the conquered land in peace and ordered the military personnel not to force the natives to convert to Islam. 

In the parenthesis Michael put his note, "From the above, it is clear that the Arab conquest was more a nationalist war of conquest rather than a holy war, although the religious aspect was not lacking". Michael Hart further says that Umar ibn Al-Khattab's achievements are impressive and it would be a grave mistake to ignore his contributions to humanity. It should be noted that Umar Ibn Al-Khattab's brilliant leadership was responsible for permanence of the territories that came under the Islamic role at that time and are still part of the Islamic world today. 

Umar Ibn Al-Khattab is a pioneering figure in the Islamic world. He was a leader, a statesman, a pious and God conscious Muslim who showed respect for all individuals including non-Muslims and he ordered the Muslims to treat non-Muslims with respect. He showed us how to apply the Quranic injunction "there is no compulsion in religion."

MAY Allah GUIDE US ON THE STRAIGHT PATH

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Yamolalimadad

CAN U PLEASE LIST FEW THINGS, WHAT THIS GREAT PERSONALITY HAS DONE FOR ISLAAM?

PLEASE LIST SOME THING CONSTRUCTIVE, OTHER THEN BURNING OF QURAAN,KILLING AND DESTRUCTION DONE BY HIM.

Ayubi786

Burning quran and killing??? Heresay!! Lies!!

The great personality Umar Faruq RA;

ACHIEVEMENTS

Umar ibn Al-Khattab established many institutions in the Islamic state's administration. Historians have called his reforms as innovations. The achievements of Umar ibn Al-Khattab are numerous. The most important achievements are listed below:

Umar ibn Al-Khattab established the public treasury: Bait-ul-Mal

Established courts of justice and appointed judges.

Proposed and enforced use of the era of Hijra.

Assumed the title of Amir-ul-Mu'minin.

To engage the anti-Islamic forces he organized and established the War Department.

Placed army reserves on the pay-roll. In addition to this, Umar Ibn Al-Khattab improved the army administration by providing every army corps with an officer of the treasury, an accountant, and number of interpreters, physicians and surgeons. He instructed the army commanders to submit accounts of war expenditures and list of the spoils of war. Historical records show that in 16 Hijri Ziyad bin Abi Sufyan came from city of Jalula Ð after its conquest - and brought with him the records of the accounts to Madinah and submitted them for Umar ibn Al-Khattab's perusal and review.

Established Land Revenue Department, ordered survey and assessment of lands and also ordered conducting census. This required maintenance of the land revenue records in Persian, Syriac and Coptic languages. The accounts were kept on long rolled-up sheets.

Founded cities: Kufah, Basrah, Jazirah, Fustat and Musal and undertook construction and building of canals.

Divided conquered countries into provinces.

Ordered collecting customs duties.

Appointed officials for the collection of tax on the produce of sea.

Gave permission to traders from foreign countries to conduct business in the Islamic territory.

Organized jails and enforced use of the whip.

Made rounds at night to gauge and evaluate the condition of the people. For relaxations he enjoyed lighter pursuits including poetry. Once he asked Abdullah bin Abbas to recite him poetry the whole night. At the time when dawn was breaking, he said, "Now recite the Holy Qur'an." During one of his night rounds around the city he heard the sound of music. He stopped and listened to the music and then moved on.

Established military cantonments and had them located at strategic points.

Organized Police Department.

Set up a system to classify pedigree and non-pedigree horses.

Built houses on the road from Makkah to Madinah for the comfort of the travelers and also established guest-houses in different cities. At that time a system was established for the clearance of land, construction of roads, building of bridges and other operations which are carried out by sappers and miner in present day armies. The local people of the lands were recruited to perform these duties.

Provided stipends for the poor Jewish and Christian people.

Established schools and provided salaries for school teachers and public lecturers.

Proposed the principle of Qiyas and its formulation.

Proposed exact division of inheritance.

Proposed and inserted additional statement "Prayer is better than sleep" in the call for Fajr prayers.

Ordained performing taraweeh prayers in congregation.

Established law for the punishment of alcohol drinkers with eighty lashes.

Proposed a method for preparing trusts.

Obtained consensus of opinion for saying four takbirs in funeral prayer.

Made arrangements for providing lights in mosques at night. It is stated that until the Khilafate of Umar ibn Al-Khattab there were no arrangements for lights in the mosques. A person by name Tamim Dari made the arrangements and supplied lamps for the mosques with Umar ibn Al-Khattab's permission.

By Michael Hart

Michael H. Hart wrote a book entitled "THE 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History" in 1978. Several other authors have written similar books but this still remains a distinguished book in it's category. The book is thought provoking and encourages the reader to see history from different perspectives.

He chose Prophet Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons which was surprising to many people. He said he chose Muhammad because he was the only person in the history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels. Michael Hart went on to count the traits and qualities of Prophet Muhammad and his overall impact on human history and arrived at the conclusion that Prophet Muhammad should be the number one person in the filed of 100 influential persons in human history.

Another surprise to many people was Michael Hart's choice of Umar Ibn Al-Khattab among the 100 influential persons, whom he not only included among these 100 persons but also put him as number two on the second half (51 to 100) of his choice. Umar Ibn Al-Khattab is 52nd on the list. He ranked him higher than such famous men as Charlemagne and Julius Caesar. He further says that Umar's brilliant leadership was responsible for the expansion of the Islamic territory and the enormous extent that it did occur under him. He further says that Umar Ibn Al-Khattab ordered the Muslim armies to leave the natives of the conquered land in peace and ordered the military personnel not to force the natives to convert to Islam.

In the parenthesis Michael put his note, "From the above, it is clear that the Arab conquest was more a nationalist war of conquest rather than a holy war, although the religious aspect was not lacking". Michael Hart further says that Umar ibn Al-Khattab's achievements are impressive and it would be a grave mistake to ignore his contributions to humanity. It should be noted that Umar Ibn Al-Khattab's brilliant leadership was responsible for permanence of the territories that came under the Islamic role at that time and are still part of the Islamic world today.

Umar Ibn Al-Khattab is a pioneering figure in the Islamic world. He was a leader, a statesman, a pious and God conscious Muslim who showed respect for all individuals including non-Muslims and he ordered the Muslims to treat non-Muslims with respect. He showed us how to apply the Quranic injunction "there is no compulsion in religion."

MAY Allah GUIDE US ON THE STRAIGHT PATH

subhaanallah - the best post on this forum by far. may Allah swt reward you.

umar ra was indeed a great personality and a giant in islam.

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Ibrahim786

subhaanallah - the best post on this forum by far. may Allah swt reward you.

umar ra was indeed a great personality and a giant in islam.

Ayubi786

All thanks to Allah swt and thank you for liking my post brother as for the great man his greatest achievement was turning muslim and FRIENDSHIP with prophet saws and through that he was mentioned by prophet saws as ONE OF HIS SAWS STARS and we all look up to stars at the beauty of Allah SWT

Allah SWT has kept him close up in heaven and the prophet saws kept him close next to his saws grave

What a great man he was

UMAR IBN ALKHATAAB RA

May Allah swt guide us on the straight path

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^^^

Ibrahim786, are you for real? Can I ask (please don't take this the wrong way as my intention is not to be condescending) but how old are you?

Umar is disliked because he went to the house of Ali (as) and demanded he pay allegiance to Abu Bakr even though he was present at Ghadir when Paak Nabi (saaw) made it clear that Ali (as) was the successor.

He caused death and injury during this visit. He also schemed for power and changed the Sharia. He was a violent, temperamental person (read sunni narration/tareekh about his behaviour towards his sister when she accepted Islam) and he didn't fight in any battles during the timeframe of Paak Nabi (saaw). He did turn up but there is no record of him killing a single kafir.

History does speak. Any objective record of him is not complimentary and biased viewpoints count for nothing.

There is NO inferiority complex. Comparing him to Maula Ali (as) is like comparing coarse rocks to gleaming diamonds.

ALI

Here we go again, the sad old Ghadir violin is out again. Many eminent Shia scholars leave the subject of Ghadir alone due to the dual meaning of the word Moula it is a shame the last and final Prophet of Allah could not find a more Unambiguous word to pass on the ultimate message of Islam. Ghadir is more to do with stopping people who were slandering the son-in-law of the Prophet. You the Shia should get it through your thick skulls that the people of whom you speak so ill of were the ones whom the Prophet befriended of his own free will and the will of the Prophet cannot be against the will of Allah. What part of the Sunnah did Umar or Abu Bakar Alter? are you talking about Muta, well that was forbidden by the Prophet him self. As for history speaking for its self look at brother Ayubi's post. Not once I CAN PROVE IT A HUNDRED TIMES THAT YOU PEOPLE ARE FULL OF NONSENSE. Great things come to great men whether you like it or not. Edited by joynal
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Fortunately any student of religion and history can tell firstly he isnt a Shia and probably a poorly educated Sunni. Secondly if it is true that the Persians created the Shias they waited a long time to exact their revenge on Hz Umar (ra).

Everyone knows that all the early hadith recorders Bukhari, Muslim etc were Persian. If anything it could be argued that the early Persians conspired with the Abbassides to create the Sunnis.

I am not suggesting this is correct I am just pointing out the ridiculus assumptions made

To be fair to all people concerned including Hz Umar (ra). I believe the actually story according to Sunnis sources is that Hz Umar (as) went to house of Hz Bibi Fatima (as) with a armed group. They demanded that everyone leave and pay allegiance to Hz Abu Bakr (ra). When the occupants including members of the Ahlul Bait and Sahaba refused he threatened to barricade the doors and burn the house down killing all the occupants.

The actual burning didnt actually take place

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Here we go again, the sad old Ghadir violin is out again. Many eminent Shia scholars leave the subject of Ghadir alone due to the dual meaning of the word Moula it is a shame the last and final Prophet of Allah could not find a more Unambiguous word to pass on the ultimate message of Islam. Ghadir is more to do with stopping people who were slandering the son-in-law of the Prophet. You the Shia should get it through your thick skulls that the people of whom you speak so ill of were the ones whom the Prophet befriended of his own free will and the will of the Prophet cannot be against the will of Allah. What part of the Sunnah did Umar or Abu Bakar Alter? are you talking about Muta, well that was forbidden by the Prophet him self. As for history speaking for its self look at brother Ayubi's post. Not once I CAN PROVE IT A HUNDRED TIMES THAT YOU PEOPLE ARE FULL OF NONSENSE. Great things come to great men whether you like it or not.

For stopping slander,he gathered children,and women in scorching heat,He could only reprimand the persons concerned.What a logic.
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ACHIEVEMENTS

Umar ibn Al-Khattab established many institutions in the Islamic state's administration.

Historians have called his reforms as innovations.

The achievements of Umar ibn Al-Khattab are numerous. The most important achievements are listed below:

Umar ibn Al-Khattab established the public treasury: Bait-ul-Mal

Established courts of justice and appointed judges.

Proposed and enforced use of the era of Hijra.

Assumed the title of Amir-ul-Mu'minin.

To engage the anti-Islamic forces he organized and established the War Department.

Placed army reserves on the pay-roll. In addition to this, Umar Ibn Al-Khattab improved the army administration by providing every army corps with an officer of the treasury, an accountant, and number of interpreters, physicians and surgeons. He instructed the army commanders to submit accounts of war expenditures and list of the spoils of war. Historical records show that in 16 Hijri Ziyad bin Abi Sufyan came from city of Jalula Ð after its conquest - and brought with him the records of the accounts to Madinah and submitted them for Umar ibn Al-Khattab's perusal and review.

Established Land Revenue Department, ordered survey and assessment of lands and also ordered conducting census. This required maintenance of the land revenue records in Persian, Syriac and Coptic languages. The accounts were kept on long rolled-up sheets.

Founded cities: Kufah, Basrah, Jazirah, Fustat and Musal and undertook construction and building of canals.

Divided conquered countries into provinces.

Ordered collecting customs duties.

Appointed officials for the collection of tax on the produce of sea.

Gave permission to traders from foreign countries to conduct business in the Islamic territory.

Organized jails and enforced use of the whip.

Made rounds at night to gauge and evaluate the condition of the people.

For relaxations he enjoyed lighter pursuits including poetry. Once he asked Abdullah bin Abbas to recite him poetry the whole night. At the time when dawn was breaking, he said, "Now recite the Holy Qur'an." During one of his night rounds around the city he heard the sound of music. He stopped and listened to the music and then moved on.

Established military cantonments and had them located at strategic points.

Organized Police Department.

Set up a system to classify pedigree and non-pedigree horses.

Built houses on the road from Makkah to Madinah for the comfort of the travelers and also established guest-houses in different cities. At that time a system was established for the clearance of land, construction of roads, building of bridges and other operations which are carried out by sappers and miner in present day armies. The local people of the lands were recruited to perform these duties.

Provided stipends for the poor Jewish and Christian people.

Established schools and provided salaries for school teachers and public lecturers.

Proposed the principle of Qiyas and its formulation.

Proposed exact division of inheritance.

Proposed and inserted additional statement "Prayer is better than sleep" in the call for Fajr prayers.

Ordained performing taraweeh prayers in congregation.

Established law for the punishment of alcohol drinkers with eighty lashes.

Proposed a method for preparing trusts.

Obtained consensus of opinion for saying four takbirs in funeral prayer.

Made arrangements for providing lights in mosques at night. It is stated that until the Khilafate of Umar ibn Al-Khattab there were no arrangements for lights in the mosques. A person by name Tamim Dari made the arrangements and supplied lamps for the mosques with Umar ibn Al-Khattab's permission.

Maybe you should have read this list before you posted it? Take the ones I've bolded/seperated; these aren't praiseworthy achievements from an Islamic perspective, quite the opposite - how is being the instigator of bida'ah considered a virtue?

Some of these things are a slur on the Holy Prophet (SAW) but in your worship of Umar you people seem to have no care for that - did no Muslim die and be buried during Prophets time? If so then wasn't namaaz e janaza read and how many takbir was it? Did (mazhallah) the Prophet not know how to conduct this rite?

And weren't the laws of inheritance laid out by the Noble Quran and Prophet? You think Umar made this sharia law himself and not Allah?

The other things you listed (let's say for a minute they are all true) - they aren't Islamic achievements per se.

Hundreds of leaders in history have advanced their people and their culture (Egyptians, Romans, Byzantines etc.) so should we also venerate them? How about Ghenghis Khan, or Alexander the Great? Or Napoleon?

Maybe even Hitler & Stalin did some good things during their tenure, does that then make them great?

Here we go again, the sad old Ghadir violin is out again. Many eminent Shia scholars leave the subject of Ghadir alone due to the dual meaning of the word Moula it is a shame the last and final Prophet of Allah could not find a more Unambiguous word to pass on the ultimate message of Islam. Ghadir is more to do with stopping people who were slandering the son-in-law of the Prophet. You the Shia should get it through your thick skulls that the people of whom you speak so ill of were the ones whom the Prophet befriended of his own free will and the will of the Prophet cannot be against the will of Allah. What part of the Sunnah did Umar or Abu Bakar Alter? are you talking about Muta, well that was forbidden by the Prophet him self. As for history speaking for its self look at brother Ayubi's post. Not once I CAN PROVE IT A HUNDRED TIMES THAT YOU PEOPLE ARE FULL OF NONSENSE. Great things come to great men whether you like it or not.

You and logic are sadly not bed-mates. You have books full of narrations about the minutest details of the Prophets seerah but you think one of the most important things (succession of Muslim leadership) would be left up in the air?

Someone better go tell Tahir ul Qadri that Ghadir wasn't about leadership because he's a prominent sunni who is convinced it is. And which Shi'ah scholar has doubt on this as you claim?

Some of the Sharia changes you asked about are listed in br Ayubis post.

ALI

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Kismet110

Maybe you should have read this list before you posted it? Take the ones I've bolded/seperated; these aren't praiseworthy achievements from an Islamic perspective, quite the opposite - how is being the instigator of bida'ah considered a virtue?

AYUBI786

Lols if your JEALOUS mate its not my fault if you wanna decieve yourself cos the truth HURTS the ones you have bolded is NOTHING to do with innovation in religion, he REFORMED but hate is never far from your eyes as your posts proove cos i didnt write the list

KISMET110

Some of these things are a slur on the Holy Prophet (SAW) but in your worship of Umar you people seem to have no care for that - did no Muslim die and be buried during Prophets time? If so then wasn't namaaz e janaza read and how many takbir was it? Did (mazhallah) the Prophet not know how to conduct this rite?

AYUBI786

Here we go again round and round in circles WE MY FRIEND WORSHIP Allah SWT ALONE here you go accusing and lying on us why??

Cos you aint got proof?

Or just HATRED?

R E F O R M not I N N O V A T E!!

KISMET110

And weren't the laws of inheritance laid out by the Noble Quran and Prophet? You think Umar made this sharia law himself and not Allah?

AYUBI786

????? First you cry Abu bakr sidique ra changed inheritence and now Umer farukh ra??

Who is it?

And anyway they didnt change it. It is written in your hadith too that PROPHETS DO NOT LEAVE INHERITANCE

Its so easy but again its HATE what overpowers you and your logic

KISMET119

The other things you listed (let's say for a minute they are all true) - they aren't Islamic achievements per se.

AYUBI786

If thats what you think then for you it aint but for the rest of the BILLIONS of muslims they are!!

KISMET110

Hundreds of leaders in history have advanced their people and their culture (Egyptians, Romans, Byzantines etc.) so should we also venerate them? How about Ghenghis Khan, or Alexander the Great? Or Napoleon?

AYUBI786

Brother this is exactly the same argument a non muslim uses against michael harts decision on naming Prophet saws before christ i aint surprised

Again brother you have HATE will you please let go of HATE

Did you know HOW he michael hart compiled his list?

He was an academic a scholar he had to make sure each leader how much of an impact he had on lives of people how they achieved it etc etc in other words he had a criterea and they had to fullfill that criterea

KISMET110

Maybe even Hitler & Stalin did some good things during their tenure, does that then make them great?

AYUBI786

Again its so easy but you love making it difficult for yourself he michael hart knows that and their leadership fitted the criteria to be a good leader it was michael harts criterea you should read the book he will answer you

I wonder if Ali ra was mentioned would you be asking same questions?

KISMET110

You and logic are sadly not bed-mates. You have books full of narrations about the minutest details of the Prophets seerah but you think one of the most important things (succession of Muslim leadership) would be left up in the air?

AYUBI786

Logic? You talking bout logic?

Lets not go diwn that road lols

Yes we have the minutest details of prphet saws yes and that is great but the most important thing (succession) then why is that not in quran as easy as kalima or salah or sawm zakah hajj perfectly clear for ALL HUMANS to see?? Why do use hidden meanings fir immamate jus like you have a hidden imam without proof from quran?

It should be easy and clear for all as the quran is!

KISMET110

Someone better go tell Tahir ul Qadri that Ghadir wasn't about leadership because he's a prominent sunni who is convinced it is. And which Shi'ah scholar has doubt on this as you claim?

AYUBI786

No brother you are completely wrong on sheikh ul islam tahir ul qadri i wonder did you watch his programme SPECIFICALLY on these issues?

The programme was called SHAANE SIDDIQUE E AKBAR RA on takbeer tv it was in ramadhan last year I WATCHED IT!

May Allah swt guide us on the right path

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For stopping slander,he gathered children,and women in scorching heat,He could only reprimand the persons concerned.What a logic.

so you think slander of Ali A.S is not important enough??? now that's a logic i expected :-)

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so you think slander of Ali A.S is not important enough??? now that's a logic i expected :-)

and yet most of the Sufi saints be they Sunni or Shia seem to accept Maula to mean master. Hence so many Sufi chains going back to Hz Ali (as). This issue of alternative interpretations of Maula is just an attack on Sufis/Sunnis and Shias alike.

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