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Haydar Husayn

What Is Wrong With Tafwid (delegation)?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Without resorting to 'because the Imams (as) said so', can someone give me some good reasons for why tafwid (delegation) is a heretical belief? Proof for the Qur'an or any hadiths that don't make direct reference to tafwid are acceptable as proof.

For those who don't know, here is the definition:

From a hadith:

And it is related from Zurara that he said: I said to Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq that a man from among the descendants of Abdu'l-lah b. Saba' is a believer in (the doctrine of) delegation (tafwid). And he said: And what is tafwid? I (Zurara) said: According to him Allah, the Mighty and Glorious, (in the first instance) created Muhammad and 'Ali, and then delegated the matter (of creation) to them, and these two created and gave sustenance, and caused life and death.

From Shaykh Mufid:

The adherents of the doctrine of delegation (al-Mufawwidah) are a group of extremists who are distinguished from the others by their peculiar claim that though the Imãms are created, originated beings, and not eternal, yet they ascribe to them creation and sustaining.

If nobody can prove it is a heretical belief (under the conditions I've set out), then it seems to me unfair that those who believed in this were so harshly criticised. After all, how were they meant to know?

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If Allah (swt) is All-knowing, All-seeing, All-hearing and All-powerful, why would the need arise whereby he has to 'delegate' His responsibilities? And even If such a major step were to be taken by Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, surely the Quran would mention it. Rather, the Quran consistently keeps on reaffirming how Allah (swt) alone is the All-powerful.

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Haider what happened to you?..All of a sudden..??..A minute back u were north pole,after a minute south pole.

okay apart from being funny,Allah is Creator,but His Loved ones are only adminstrators,Their wishes affect the will of God..but the belief mentioned above is something else..those who believe He has got retired (nauzbillah)are heretical.

Again, i am intrigued,what makes u question that?I mean,moment back u were against Tawassul,now u are asking about Tafwid? :donno:

But still i haven't investigated the matter of tawfid fully,but Allah is not retired from everythong of course,but He has granted them authority to act on His behalf,but He is the Highest command.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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okay apart from being funny,Allah is Creator,but His Loved ones are only adminstrators,Their wishes affect the will of God..but the belief mentioned above is something else..those who believe He has got retired (nauzbillah)are heretical.

So in your view, there is only a problem with the belief if it is claimed that Allah (swt) no longer does anything and leaves it all to the Masumeen (as)? Is that correct?

And by the way, you didn't really explain why it is heretical, you just asserted it. What prevents Allah (swt) from delegating matters to the best of His creation, if He so wishes? He is still the one with the ultimate power.

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So in your view, there is only a problem with the belief if it is claimed that Allah (swt) no longer does anything and leaves it all to the Masumeen (as)? Is that correct?

And by the way, you didn't really explain why it is heretical, you just asserted it. What prevents Allah (swt) from delegating matters to the best of His creation, if He so wishes? He is still the one with the ultimate power.

Yes you are correct for first point,as for second look,there are matters where controlling,or adminstration is concerned,He hire their duties as His servants,but take example,there is a matter of day of judgement,Only He knows it's time,and Time of Zahoor even,because He is Adil(just).To manifest His power of justice He will take revenge from the deviant ones,first through His Imam(as)after Zahoor,and then on doomsday Himself,His quality of Justice is a part of Islamic fundamentals,so how can we say each and everything is handed over,but still this matter demands further investigation for which sense or authority this can be used,and where can't,i didn't probe much further into the issue,but yes Allah has called them His Eyes,Hands,and Ears,so it also shows They work for Him,as His will's custodians.

And again,why are you thinking about these things?What were you advocating five mins back is clearly an opposite to what u are asking here,is everything fine with u? :o

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Salam.

Another interesting question could be why would delegation be limited to matters of creating/sustenance only??

Here is an authentic hadees:

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ الْحَجَّالِ عَنْ ثَعْلَبَةَ عَنْ زُرَارَةَ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ وَ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع يَقُولَانِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ فَوَّضَ إِلَى نَبِيِّهِ ص أَمْرَ خَلْقِهِ لِيَنْظُرَ كَيْفَ طَاعَتُهُمْ ثُمَّ تَلَا هَذِهِ الْآيَةَ ما آتاكُمُ الرَّسُولُ فَخُذُوهُ وَ ما نَهاكُمْ عَنْهُ فَانْتَهُوا

A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Hajjal from Tha‘laba from Zurara who has said the following.

"I heard abu Ja‘far and abu ‘Abd Allah (as) say, ‘Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High has made the Holy Prophet in charge of the affairs of His creatures to see how their obedience is. He then recited this verse of Holy Quran, "... what the Messenger (of Allah) you, you must take (obey) and what he prohibits you, you must desist from ..." (59:7)

[source: Al Kaafi Vol.1 Pg.266]

Note: Authentic Hadees as per the Sanad analysis. See Miraat-Al-Uqool - Allama Majlisi - Vol.3 Pg.150]

The Following verse actually provides quiet a bit of insight.

وَمَا تَشَاءُونَ إِلَّا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا

But ye will not, except as Allah wills; for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom [76:30]

So what ever the AhlulBait (as) do in always as per and under the will of Allah (swt) and not independent.

In the Holy Quran, the aspects of giving life and death are ascribed to Prophet Isa (as) and the angels;

Allah (swt) says to Prophet Isa (as):

إِذْ تَخْلُقُ مِنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ بِإِذْنِي فَتَنْفُخُ فِيهَا فَتَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِي وَتُبْرِئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَصَ بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ تُخْرِجُ الْمَوْتَىٰ بِإِذْنِي

"And behold! Thou makes out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathes into it and it becomes a bird by My leave, and thou heals those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! Thou bring forth the dead by my leave." [5:110]

In the above ayah Allah (swt) used the word “ تَخْلُقُ - You Created” for Prophet Isa (as). But as is obvious it is with the Will and Permission of Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

Same is the case of the angel of death taking the souls. See verses of the Holy Quran below:

اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنْفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا

It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death. [39:42]

قُلْ يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ مَلَكُ الْمَوْتِ الَّذِي وُكِّلَ بِكُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكُمْ تُرْجَعُونَ

Say: "The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord. [32:11]

So we see that in one verse Allah (swt) says that he is taking the souls of men and at some places Allah (swt) says that the angel of death takes the souls of men. This is not a contradiction in the Holy Quran. This indicates that since the angel of death is appointed by Allah (swt) hence the act of taking the souls which is actually done by the angel of death is referred to be an act done by Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

And this is not the understanding of a fallible but the statement of a Masoom Imam (as).

An apostate raised question on the authenticity of the Holy Quran saying the there are contradictions in the Holy Quran because in one verse Allah (swt) says that he is taking the souls of men and at some places Allah (swt) says that the angel of death takes the souls of men. In reply to this question from the apostate Imam Ali (as) ibn Abi Talib (as) replied saying:

Allah (swt) is very great to himself to the act of taking the souls of men and the acts of his messenger and angels are his (swt) acts because they act as per his will and they are the medium between Him (swt) and his creations. They are those for whom Allah (swt) said: Allah chooses messengers from angels and from men, so for those are from the obedient the angels of mercy take their souls, and for those men from the sinful the Angels of vengeance take their souls. And the Angel of Death has agents in the form of the angels of mercy and vengeance, for issuing the order, And their deeds to do, and all come attributed to him and their (angels of mercy and vengeance) acts are the acts of the angel of death (Malak-ul-Maut) and the act of the angel of death (Malak-ul-Maut) is the act of Allah سبحانه وتعالى.”

[source: Ehtejaj-e-Tabarisi Vol:1 Pg:367]

This can be seen online at this link: http://al-shia.org/h...oks/?mod=hadith

For this very scenario below is what A.Khomenei says in his book Sharh-e-Arbaeen Hadees No. 30:

“The Angel of Death is in charged with taking life and his taking of life is not something like the fulfillment of prayer, and Israfil is in charged with the giving of life, which is not of the nature of a prayer answered, and these actions do not fall under invalid tafwid. In the same way, if a perfect Wali and a potent pure soul-such as the spirits of the prophets and the Awliya's are-were to have the power to annihilate and create, to cause death and give life, a power given to them by God, the Exalted, it would not be an instance of impossible tafwid and should not be considered invalid.”

This book can be seen online: http://www.al-islam.org/fortyhadith/

So the only problem I see is that if one believes that the AhlulBait (as) have these authority independent of the will of Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

Here is an authentic narration which shows the status of the AhlulBait (as):

أبي - رحمه الله - قال: حدثنا سعد بن عبدالله، قال: حدثنا أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن فضالة بن أيوب، عن أبان بن عثمان، عن محمد بن مسلم، قال: سمعت أبا عبدالله عليه السلام يقول: إن لله عزوجل خلقا خلقهم من نوره، ورحمة من رحمته لرحمته، فهم عين الله الناظرة، واذنه السامعة، ولسانه الناطق في خلقه باذنه، وامناؤه على ماأنزل من عذر أونذر أوحجة، فبهم يمحو الله السيئات، وبهم يدفع الضيم، وبهم ينزل الرحمة، وبهم يحيي ميتا ويميت حيا، وبهم يبتلي خلقه، وبهم يقضي في خلقه قضية.

قلت: جعلت فداك من هؤلاء؟ قال: الاوصياء.

My father - Allah have mercy on Him - said: Sa`d b. `Abdullah narrated to us, he said: Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa narrated to us, from Hasan b. Sa`eed, from Fudalah b. Ayyub, from Abban b. `Uthman, from Muhammad b. Muslim, who said: I heard Aba `Abdillah (as) say:

"Indeed Allah, Mighty and Exalted, created certain creatures from His light, and a mercy from His mercy for the sake of His Mercy. For these are the eye of Allah that sees, and His ear that hears, and His tongue that speaks to His creation by His permission, and the safeguards over what has descended from (His) justifications and warnings and proofs. And through them He wards off grievances, and through them He sends down mercy, and through them He enlivens the dead, and causes to die the living. And through them He afflicts His creation (with tribulations), and through them He judges cases among His creation."

I asked: May I be your ransom - Who are these?

He (as) replied: Al-Awsiyaa (the vice-regents).

[source: Al-Tawheed by Sheikh Sadooq, Pg 167, H 24]

Note: Authentic Hadees as per the Sanad analysis.

Read more here:http://www.marefatea...he-ahlulbait-as

Edited by muhibb-ali

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Salam.

Here is what A.Khoi has said:

ومنهم من لا يعتقد بربوبية أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) ولا بتفويض الاُمور إليه وإنما يعتقد أنه (عليه السلام) وغيره من الأئمة الطاهرين ولاة الأمر وأنهم عاملون لله سبحانه وأنهم أكرم المخلوقين عنده فينسب إليهم الرزق والخلق ونحوهما ، لا بمعنى إسنادها إليهم (عليهم السلام) حقيقة لأنه يعتقد أن العامل فيها حقيقة هو الله ، بل كإسناد الموت إلى ملك الموت والمطر إلى ملك المطر والاحياء إلى عيسى (عليه السلام) كما ورد في الكتاب العزيز : (واُحي الموتى باذن الله )(2) وغيرها مما هو من إسناد فعل من أفعال الله سبحانه إلى العاملين له بضرب من

الاسناد . ومثل هذا الاعتقاد غير مستتبع للكفر ولا هو إنكار للضروري

"There are some people who do not believe Amir-Al-Momineen (as) and other Imam's (as) to be God but believe that the Imam's (as) are the guardians of the affairs (Wali Amr) and workers of Allah and they are the most beloved and closest to Allah (swt) and hence give Rizq (sustenance) to the creations of Allah (swt) and also believe that it is Allah (swt) who is true sustainer (Raziq). This is similar to the case of angel of death being the one who gives death, the angel of rain sending down rainfall, Prophet Isa (as) giving life to the dead with the will/permission of Allah (swt) as has come in the Holy Quran. Having such a belief is not Kufr and is not a rejection of any essentials (belief of Shiasm)."

[source: Sharh-el-Urwatul-Wuthqa" Vol.3 Pg.68]

http://www.al-khoei.us/books/?id=513

Edited by muhibb-ali

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ok so this is where it gets quite serious in my opinion and I'm not quite sure how to reconcile.

First, if this concept was so strongly opposed by not only such giants of our school as Saduq and Mufeed but by the Imams themselves (as Haydar Husayn's link proves), how in the world could have Seyyed Khoi come to a completely contrary conclusion?

And second, and this is most confusing, this tafwid concept doesn't seem to be much different from the concept of Wilaya al-Takwiniya which I think most of our scholars uphold as a true concept - and yet the Imam called tafwid a lie and Saduq called it kufr?

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ok so this is where it gets quite serious in my opinion and I'm not quite sure how to reconcile.

First, if this concept was so strongly opposed by not only such giants of our school as Saduq and Mufeed but by the Imams themselves (as Haydar Husayn's link proves), how in the world could have Seyyed Khoi come to a completely contrary conclusion?

And second, and this is most confusing, this tafwid concept doesn't seem to be much different from the concept of Wilaya al-Takwiniya which I think most of our scholars uphold as a true concept - and yet the Imam called tafwid a lie and Saduq called it kufr?

Salam

There was miss translation on my part on the words of A.Khoi (my post above), I had missed translating the part in Red below.

ومنهم من لا يعتقد بربوبية أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) ولا بتفويض الاُمور إليه

"And there are among those who do not believe Amir-Al-Momineen (as) and to be God, and don't believe in Tafweez of matters to them" .....

So A.Khoi does not consider this belief this to Tafweez.

You can read further on this link for what A.Khoi says about Tafweez, Ghulv etc..

http://www.al-khoei.us/books/?id=513

Basically from what I have read at the above link, A.Khoi differentiates this belief from Tafweez mainly due to the fact that "They still believe that its Allah (swt) who is the Raaziq and Khaliq in actual/true sense".

Wassalam

Edited by muhibb-ali

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This Mu'tabar Hadith shows the reason and limit of attatchment to the Imams by the companions of the Imam themselves, and the reply in affirmative by the Imam.

أبو علي الأشعري، عن محمد بن عبد الجبار، عن الحسن بن علي بن فضال، عن ثعلبة بن ميمون، عن أبي أمية يوسف بن ثابت بن أبي سعيدة، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) أنهم قالوا حين دخلوا عليه: إنما أحببناكم لقرابتكم من رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) ولما أوجب الله عز وجل من حقكم، ما أحببناكم للدنيا نصيبها منكم إلا لوجه الله والدار الآخرة وليصلح لامرىء منا دينه. فقال أبو عبد الله (عليه السلام): صدقتم صدقتم

Abu Ali al-Ash’ariy from Muhammad bin Abdil Jabbar from al-Hasan bin Ali bin Fadhal from Tha’laba bin Maymun from Abi Umayya Yusuf bin Thabit bin Abi Saida from Abi Abdillah عليه السلام,

that they (His companions) said to him when they entered in to meet him:

Verily we have loved you for your nearness (in relation) to the messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and because of what Allah عز وجل has obligated upon us in terms of your right (over us), we have not loved you because of this Dunya and what we might get of it from you, but solely for the cause of Allah and the abode of the hereafter, and that a man among us may set aright his religion (by this love),

so He said: you have spoken the truth, you have spoken the truth (twice).

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Basically from what I have read at the above link, A.Khoi differentiates this belief from Tafweez mainly due to the fact that "They still believe that its Allah (swt) who is the Raaziq and Khaliq in actual/true sense".

But tafwid also clearly states that it was Allah that created everything in the first place. The only difference I see is that in Tafwid Allah created and then gave the managing of His affairs away to Masumeen (if I understand this concept correctly) and in Wilayat Takwiniya, Allah created and still manages some affairs yet others are managed by Masumeen, so they kind of share. While clearly a significant difference, I don't see how one would be total kufr and the other perfectly ok. They are the same in essence - both give the managing of Rizq and Khulq to Masumeen but at the same time state that the original/ultimate Raziq and Khaliq is Allah.

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But tafwid also clearly states that it was Allah that created everything in the first place. The only difference I see is that in Tafwid Allah created and then gave the managing of His affairs away to Masumeen (if I understand this concept correctly) and in Wilayat Takwiniya, Allah created and still manages some affairs yet others are managed by Masumeen, so they kind of share. While clearly a significant difference, I don't see how one would be total kufr and the other perfectly ok. They are the same in essence - both give the managing of Rizq and Khulq to Masumeen but at the same time state that the original/ultimate Raziq and Khaliq is Allah.

It's like the duty of angels,they(Ahlebait(as)) are managing as servants of Allah,not as creator.It's a common sense ,Izraeel takes away soul,by Allah's command,similarly Allah commands,they(Ahlebait(as) execute. Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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It's like the duty of angels,they(Ahlebait(as)) are managing as servants of Allah,not as creator.It's a common sense ,Izraeel takes away soul,by Allah's command,similarly Allah commands,they(Ahlebait(as) execute.

in that case again - theres no difference between Tafwid and Wilayat Takwiniya. In both cases Allah commanded them to take the management of His affairs and they execute. And yet one is declared kufr by early scholars and the other is declared as perfectly ok by later scholars.

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