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Haydar Husayn

What Is Wrong With Tafwid (delegation)?

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I haven't said haram,or something but does Islam encourage useless exercise?

No, but not being recommended doesn't mean it's haram. So let's say someone says 'O angel of rain, please alleviate this drought'. Would this be haram, assuming the person has the right intention of knowing the angel of rain isn't independent of Allah, etc, etc?

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No, but not being recommended doesn't mean it's haram. So let's say someone says 'O angel of rain, please alleviate this drought'. Would this be haram, assuming the person has the right intention of knowing the angel of rain isn't independent of Allah, etc, etc?

It won't be haraam,but a silly thing indeed.

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No, but not being recommended doesn't mean it's haram. So let's say someone says 'O angel of rain, please alleviate this drought'. Would this be haram, assuming the person has the right intention of knowing the angel of rain isn't independent of Allah, etc, etc?

Salamalaikum

Brother rock minded jaheel,

Let say u call upon Allah azwj how would u begun and end.?

Start with bismillah hir rahman nir raheem and end your duaa with salawaat.

Tell me is bismillah Allah ? Or Allah bismillah? Is a ism musamma or musamma is?

Do u call ism or musamma or do u call both ism and musamma?

Do u intend only musamma ?

Ya ali madad

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Ok. Now let's say after making this dua, it does in fact rain, and the person thanks the angel of rain. Is this haram?

I know what you are trying to say,that i would say that if someone has prayed to angel,and if it rains actually it is due to Allah's will,and then you will allude this to Imams(as),i am pretty good at mind readings..

Okay!you tell us how many people in the world supplicate to Angels???,or you did and it started to rain?

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Salamalaikum

Brother rock minded jaheel,

Let say u call upon Allah azwj how would u begun and end.?

Start with bismillah hir rahman nir raheem and end your duaa with salawaat.

Tell me is bismillah Allah ? Or Allah bismillah? Is a ism musamma or musamma is?

Do u call ism or musamma or do u call both ism and musamma?

Do u intend only musamma ?

Ya ali madad

I'm not interested in word games.

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I'm not interested in word games.

Word games to u?

Did u know that if u worship the maani musamma with ism u become a mushrik. This is an important issue. Do u know why u begin with bismillah and not bi Allah ?

Dude if u remove ahlulbayth a.s who are the wasila then no prayer of u is accepted and do u think if they are not apparently mentioned then they are not called either? Pure qiyas when u guys make up they are other than Allah aaj and pure shirk when u guys Cal hujjat Allah as Allah azwj.

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I know what you are trying to say,that i would say that if someone has prayed to angel,and if it rains actually it is due to Allah's will,and then you will allude this to Imams(as),i am pretty good at mind readings..

Okay!you tell us how many people in the world supplicate to Angels???,or you did and it started to rain?

The pagan Arabs used to

What! has then your Lord preferred to give you sons, and (for Himself) taken daughters from among the angels? Most surely you utter a grievous saying. [17:40, Shakir]

Now, could you please anwer my question? Would it be haram to thank the angel of rain if it rained? After all, he is the one in charge of sending down rain, so what's the problem?

Dude if u remove ahlulbayth a.s who are the wasila then no prayer of u is accepted and do u think if they are not apparently mentioned then they are not called either? Pure qiyas when u guys make up they are other than Allah aaj and pure shirk when u guys Cal hujjat Allah as Allah azwj.

Ok, so if we don't go through the ahlulbayt, then no prayer is accepted, but when the pagan Arabs went straight to Allah (swt) then their prayers were accepted? Amazing.

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He is incharge,but we know he is not His hujjah,so whoever supplicate,or even thank him is a mere fool,btw it is only mentioned that pagans used to call angels as His daughters(nauzbillah),but can you please refer to an Ayat,where pagans supplicate to them as well?

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He is incharge,but we know he is not His hujjah,so whoever supplicate,or even thank him is a mere fool,btw it is only mentioned that pagans used to call angels as His daughters(nauzbillah),but can you please refer to an Ayat,where pagans supplicate to them as well?

Dear sister do not give fatwas left and right. What you don't thank hujjat Allah a.s?

The pagan Arabs used to

What! has then your Lord preferred to give you sons, and (for Himself) taken daughters from among the angels? Most surely you utter a grievous saying. [17:40, Shakir]

Now, could you please anwer my question? Would it be haram to thank the angel of rain if it rained? After all, he is the one in charge of sending down rain, so what's the problem?

Ok, so if we don't go through the ahlulbayt, then no prayer is accepted, but when the pagan Arabs went straight to Allah (swt) then their prayers were accepted? Amazing.

Kaifa youbad man la youraf??

You don't call other than Allah azwj that is right and true but is a name other than the named or the named Himself. If He is other than His name then stop saying bismillah and if u think name is Allah azwj Himself then u are a mushrik because you worshipped booth the name and its meaning(named one)

Is this word game to u? Correct ur tauheed bro and stop making stupid threads

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He is incharge,but we know he is not His hujjah,so whoever supplicate,or even thank him is a mere fool,

Ok, we have already established that, but you still haven't said whether it would be haram to thank him or not. He still does something, so what is the harm in thanking him, even if he can't decide when to make it rain or not?

btw it is only mentioned that pagans used to call angels as His daughters(nauzbillah),but can you please refer to an Ayat,where pagans supplicate to them as well?

It is well known that the pagan Arabs used to worship these idols. As for references in the Qur'an, here is the closest I think:

Have you then considered the Lat and the Uzza, and Manat, the third, the last? What! for you the males and for Him the females! This indeed is an unjust division! They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord. Or shall man have what he wishes? Nay! for Allah is the hereafter and the former (life). And how many an angel is there in the heavens whose intercession does not avail at all except after Allah has given permission to whom He pleases and chooses. [53:19-26]

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Oh bhai Siraat o Ali,which fatwa i gave,yes we feel grateful to Hujjat ullah for becoming our Intercessor,so what do say we should do this to angels as well?

What was your point against me,it's really mind boggling ,what you actually tried to point out?

Ok, we have already established that, but you still haven't said whether it would be haram to thank him or not. He still does something, so what is the harm in thanking him, even if he can't decide when to make it rain or not?

It is well known that the pagan Arabs used to worship these idols. As for references in the Qur'an, here is the closest I think:

Have you then considered the Lat and the Uzza, and Manat, the third, the last? What! for you the males and for Him the females! This indeed is an unjust division! They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord. Or shall man have what he wishes? Nay! for Allah is the hereafter and the former (life). And how many an angel is there in the heavens whose intercession does not avail at all except after Allah has given permission to whom He pleases and chooses. [53:19-26]

Again i say the same thing..there are many things that are not haram but futile.

Like if you play tennis does it give you sawaab?no,but is it haraam then?

People who used to ask directly were given too, but this way firoun was given a kingdom when He called himself a God and don't even call to Allah,so would you take him as an example too?..Allah even grant those who don't even believe in Him,so does He grant those who don't believe in powers of His loved ones,but it doesn't change their status by their denial as Allah's status isn't changed by it.

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Oh bhai Siraat o Ali,which fatwa i gave,yes we feel grateful to Hujjat ullah for becoming our Intercessor,so what do say we should do this to angels as well?

What was your point against me,it's really mind boggling ,what you actually tried to point out?

Take some time off computer and re-read ur posts. From mustahab to not haram. U don't have to answer if u completely do not know. See how he avoids my questions. Because he understands shirk that he thinks he knows but does not want yo know what shirk really is?

Anyway sorry for being harsh

Ok, we have already established that, but you still haven't said whether it would be haram to thank him or not. He still does something, so what is the harm in thanking him, even if he can't decide when to make it rain or not?

It is well known that the pagan Arabs used to worship these idols. As for references in the Qur'an, here is the closest I think:

Have you then considered the Lat and the Uzza, and Manat, the third, the last? What! for you the males and for Him the females! This indeed is an unjust division! They are naught but names which you have named, you and your fathers; Allah has not sent for them any authority. They follow naught but conjecture and the low desires which (their) souls incline to; and certainly the guidance has come to them from their Lord. Or shall man have what he wishes? Nay! for Allah is the hereafter and the former (life). And how many an angel is there in the heavens whose intercession does not avail at all except after Allah has given permission to whom He pleases and chooses. [53:19-26]

1

ﻦﻣ ءﺎﻤﺴﻟا – From Zurara from Abu Ja`far

said: Beware you of quarrel, for it thwarts the work and destroys the religion. And if one of you should adduce the aya for proof/refutation, he would fall in it further than the sky

Tafseer al tashayyu (www.*******.org).

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You aren't being stupid. What you're realizing is that the two are virtually the same thing. Wilayat takwiniyya is a foreign concept to the original Imamiyya anyway, you won't find reference to it amongst the ancients, it's a much later concept that came in under the influenced of Sufism, particularly with the the school of Ibn `Arabi. Here's what Hossein Modarressi mentions about it in his Crisis and Consolodation:

The introduction of Sufi ideas and interpretations into Islamic philosophy in the Safavid period brought about a new Shi'ite school of Islamic philosophy in the eleventh/seventeenth century and helped the Sufi cosmological theories of Ibn al-'Arabi to become established in Shi'ite philosophical thought. Some of the adherents of this philosophical school put forward a theory of the Imam's "existential authority" (al-wilaya al-takwiniyya) that was virtually the same as the Mufawwida's cosmological theory on the authority of the "first creature" or the "perfect man" in the creation and supervision of the world. Although many of the followers of that Sufi philosophical school have not supported that concept of the Imam's existential authority to its full logical conclusion, others have done so. Those that have must be regarded as the true heirs of the Mufawwida (even though they strongly deny it, at least verbally) because their doctrines are identical. Although always a small minority, some of their ideas, which were in line with the pro-Mufawwida reports in the collections of hadith, as well as their terminology, have gained some degree of support in the community.

Brother as you said it's nowhere in classical texts then why such things are mentioned in Kitab e Tauheed,where they are confirmed to be first creation,Protector of creations,eye,hand,ear of Allah?

Was sheikh Sadooq belonged to Mufawidda?who quoted such beliefs.

And it's adherents aren't small minority even,who believe in Wilayat e Takwinia,they are huge in numbers. At least,you can take almost 100million Shias of sub-continent for instance.There are in other places too.,

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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Brother as you said it's nowhere in classical texts then why such things are mentioned in Kitab e Tauheed,where they are confirmed to be first creation,Protector of creations,eye,hand,ear of Allah?

Was sheikh Sadooq belonged to Mufawidda?who quoted such beliefs.

I said wilayat takwiniyya is nowhere in the classical texts, which would include Saduq, since the concept didn't exist yet amongst them (see above, it was introduced in the Safavid period via Sufi influence). What you're referring to are some reports (though I'm not sure where or even if you'll find in Saduq that they are the first creation) which may be understood in different ways, but what you have done is view them under the prism of your current beliefs (whereas I might look at them and understand them differently for example). That said, it doesn't seem doubtful to me the some reports of Mufawidda origin did find their way into our books, even of authors who were not themselves Mufawwida. Key there is to distinguish the wheat from the chaff as we must always do with ahadith (keeping in mind to compare them to the book of Allah) As to Saduq regarding the Mufawwida, he cursed them.

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But i didn't pass any fatwa,he asked for angels,i said it's futile to pray,and thanks to them,i didn't say it's haram ,or what,if i don't know then please enlighten us what should be said?

Say what ahlulbayth a.s said about mufawiddah may Allah azwj curse them. The are mushrik and none have spoken so lowly of Allah azwj as they did.

And that they a.s create with the will of Allah azwj (some want to call it moujiza so leave them with that) and ahlulbayth a.s do not even take a step forward without His will. The power belongs to Allah azwj and He gives authority to whom He wills.

And wilayat e takweeniya believers are also limitng Allah azwj's authority. And if u do nor know that calling others than Allah azwj isn't allowed then say I don't

Ya ali madad

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Again i say the same thing..there are many things that are not haram but futile.

So just to be clear, you think it's ok to thank the angels for rain, or whatever, but it's just futile?

People who used to ask directly were given too, but this way firoun was given a kingdom when He called himself a God and don't even call to Allah,so would you take him as an example too?.. Allah even grant those who don't even believe in Him,so does He grant those who don't believe in powers of His loved ones,but it doesn't change their status by their denial as Allah's status isn't changed by it.

No. There is a difference between someone who calls upon Allah and has his request granted, and someone who never called on Allah in the first place.

In the Qur'an, it is mentioned many times that mushriks called on Allah when in distress, and then after He answered them, they became ungrateful (if you want reference, I can give them to you). This shows that Allah anwered their prayer, even though they didn't go through anyone. In addition,

And when My servants ask you concerning Me, then surely I am very near; I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he calls on Me, so they should answer My call and believe in Me that they may walk in the right way. [2:186]

Nahjul Balagha, Letter 31

Develop the habit of patience against sufferings, calamities and adversities. This virtue of patience is one of the highest values of morality and nobility of character and it is the best habit which one can develop. Trust in Allah and let your mind seek His protection in every calamity and suffering because you will thus entrust yourself and your affairs to the Best Trustee and to the Mightiest Guardian. Do not seek help or protection from anybody but Allah. Reserve your prayers, your requests, your solicitations, your supplications, and your entreaties to Him and Him alone because to grant, to give, to confer and to bestow, as well as to withhold, to deprive, to refuse, and to debar, lies only in His Power. Ask as much of His Blessings and seek as much of His Guidance as you can.

[...]

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf.

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Abu `Ali al Ash`ari from Muhammad b. `Abd al Jabbar from ibn Mahbub from Abu Hafs al A`sha from `Umar (in the copy: `Amr)b. Khalid from Abu Hamzah al Thumali from `Ali b. al Husain عليه السلام. He said: I went out until I reached this wall against which I reclined, when a man wearing two pieces of a white garment looked at my face and said: O `Ali b. al Husain! Why is it that I see you depressed and grieving? – until he said (translator: the author has not included the middle portion of the sourced hadith) – then he said: O `Ali b. al Husain عليه السلام! Have you seen anyone call on Allah while He has not answered him? I said: No. He said: Have you seen anyone place tawakkul in Allah while He has not sufficed him? I said: No. He said: Have you seen anyone ask Allah while He has not granted him? I said: No. Then he disappeared from me. (al Kafi)

Brother as you said it's nowhere in classical texts then why such things are mentioned in Kitab e Tauheed,where they are confirmed to be first creation,Protector of creations,eye,hand,ear of Allah?

Was sheikh Sadooq belonged to Mufawidda?who quoted such beliefs.

And it's adherents aren't small minority even,who believe in Wilayat e Takwinia,they are huge in numbers. At least,you can take almost 100million Shias of sub-continent for instance.There are in other places too.,

Here are the views of Shaykhs Saduq and Mufeed on this:

This part is especially interesting to me:

Indeed, it is a sufficient sign of excess to claim that the Imãms are not created beings, and that they are divine and eternal, since the only logical conclusion of this assertion is excess; that the Imãms are the creators of bodies, originators of substances, and bring into existence accidents which are beyond human power. We need no more than this to judge or to ascertain their position without the signs which Abū Ja‘far, holds the marks of excess. (Shaykh Mufeed)

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I said wilayat takwiniyya is nowhere in the classical texts, which would include Saduq, since the concept didn't exist yet amongst them (see above, it was introduced in the Safavid period via Sufi influence). What you're referring to are some reports (though I'm not sure where or even if you'll find in Saduq that they are the first creation) which may be understood in different ways, but what you have done is view them under the prism of your current beliefs (whereas I might look at them and understand them differently for example). That said, it doesn't seem doubtful to me the some reports of Mufawidda origin did find their way into our books, even of authors who were not themselves Mufawwida. Key there is to distinguish the wheat from the chaff as we must always do with ahadith (keeping in mind to compare them to the book of Allah) As to Saduq regarding the Mufawwida, he cursed them.

He must have cursed those who believed them as creator with Allah doing nothing,if he cursed the concept of their takweeni authority he won't have mentioned anything as such even if it was weak report.

What i am referring to is tradition in initial pages of Kitab e Tauheed,though i don't remember the page number,but you can read it on your own too,where it was said that" Allah created them before creating others,and made both Mohammad(saww),and Ali(as) shelters on His messengers"..so why did He quoted such thing,and in the same book He mentioned Ahadees calling Ahlebait(as) as His eye,ear,hands,so one who doesn't believe in them,can't bring them forward even if they are weak,and strong.

Yes book of Allah is confirming their presence before universe as Allah reprimanded iblees for not doing sajda to Adam by saying "do you think you are amongst Aaleen"now who were they.

Take any prism,the thing will remain same,we don't claim any non-factual thing.

Oh brother Haider,there are many atheists in the world do you deny their presence?Those who don't believe in existence of Allah at all let alone supplication,why are you bringing Verses mentioning pagans only,they are not only non-believers in the world.

So how do atheists get sustenence,they don't even ask whether direct,or indirect.

Say what ahlulbayth a.s said about mufawiddah may Allah azwj curse them. The are mushrik and none have spoken so lowly of Allah azwj as they did.

And that they a.s create with the will of Allah azwj (some want to call it moujiza so leave them with that) and ahlulbayth a.s do not even take a step forward without His will. The power belongs to Allah azwj and He gives authority to whom He wills.

And wilayat e takweeniya believers are also limitng Allah azwj's authority. And if u do nor know that calling others than Allah azwj isn't allowed then say I don't

Ya ali madad

Alhamdulillah i know what i say. Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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He mentioned Ahadees calling Ahlebait(as) as His eye,ear,hands,so one who doesn't believe in them,can't bring them forward even if they are weak,and strong.

You mentioned hadiths naming the Ahlulbayt (as) and the eye, ears, and hands of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. However, the Qur'an mentions Isa (as) as the spirit of Allah (swt)! What's greater, the spirit or the hand? I don't see anyone saying 'Ya Isa Madad' though. Oh wait...

Yes book of Allah is confirming their presence before universe as Allah reprimanded iblees for not doing sajda to Adam by saying "do you think you are amongst Aaleen"now who were they.

This is a clear cut example of reading the Quran through the prism of a certain set of beliefs.

Oh brother Haider,there are many atheists in the world do you deny their presence?Those who don't believe in existence of Allah at all let alone supplication,why are you bringing Verses mentioning pagans only,they are not only non-believers in the world.

So how do atheists get sustenence,they don't even ask whether direct,or indirect.

I think you are missing the point. Anyway, just read the ayah and hadiths I quoted. Do you see anything about going through anyone there? No. In fact, it is explicitly denied by Imam Ali (as):

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf.

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Haider what you quoted in the end of your previous post is completely irrelevent nobody is advocating here that they were creator ,or originator.

So according to you the Imams (as) aren't capable of creating? Anyway, just focus on this part:

Indeed, it is a sufficient sign of excess to claim that the Imãms are not created beings, and that they are divine and eternal, since the only logical conclusion of this assertion is excess; that the Imãms are the creators of bodies, originators of substances, and bring into existence accidents which are beyond human power. We need no more than this to judge or to ascertain their position without the signs which Abū Ja‘far, holds the marks of excess. (Shaykh Mufeed)

You don't think the Imams (as) can bring into existence accidents which are beyond human power?

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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You mentioned hadiths naming the Ahlulbayt (as) and the eye, ears, and hands of Allah سبحانه وتعالى. However, the Qur'an mentions Isa (as) as the spirit of Allah (swt)! What's greater, the spirit or the hand? I don't see anyone saying 'Ya Isa Madad' though. Oh wait...

This is a clear cut example of reading the Quran through the prism of a certain set of beliefs.

I think you are missing the point. Anyway, just read the ayah and hadiths I quoted. Do you see anything about going through anyone there? No. In fact, it is explicitly denied by Imam Ali (as):

Realize this truth, my son, that the Lord who owns and holds the treasures of Paradise and the earth has given you permission to ask and beg for them and He has promised to grant your prayers. He has told you to pray for His Favours that they may be granted to you and to ask for His Blessings that they may be bestowed upon you. He has not appointed guards to prevent your prayers reaching Him. Nor is there any need for anybody to intercede before Him on your behalf.

Yes there are many who supplicate to Esa?

If i see according to my prism why don't you tell who the Aaleen were then?,Allah wasn't throwing words into air,they always bear meanings.

The letter you quote again,and again is translated into different ways,some says mediator,some intercessors,obviously we don't need anyone to make Allah hear,or convey what we say,but we need someone who can ask Allah to change our destinies even.Whose wish can influence His will.But as to hear what we say He don't need anyone He is all-hearing,infact you are looking at things with your prism.

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You mentioned hadiths naming the Ahlulbayt (as) and the eye, ears, and hands of Allah سبحانه وتعالى. However, the Qur'an mentions Isa (as) as the spirit of Allah (swt)! What's greater, the spirit or the hand? I don't see anyone saying 'Ya Isa Madad' though. Oh wait...

who's greater Ahlulbayt or Isa (as)?

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who's greater Ahlulbayt or Isa (as)?

Why are you answering a question with a question? My point is simply that if you are going to read so much into the name 'hand of Allah', then you need to be consistent and read even more into 'spirit of Allah'.

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So according to you the Imams (as) aren't capable of creating? Anyway, just focus on this part:

Indeed, it is a sufficient sign of excess to claim that the Imãms are not created beings, and that they are divine and eternal, since the only logical conclusion of this assertion is excess; that the Imãms are the creators of bodies, originators of substances, and bring into existence accidents which are beyond human power. We need no more than this to judge or to ascertain their position without the signs which Abū Ja‘far, holds the marks of excess. (Shaykh Mufeed)

You don't think the Imams (as) can bring into existence accidents which are beyond human power?

For your understanding let me quote an incident once Imam Ali(as) was breaking the hard barley bread by putting it on

on His knees,someone ask You are the one who lifted khaiber now you are trying to break this bread ,with such efforts,He said that what i did on that day was with power of Allah,so whenever required Allah grant them power to do unusual things ,it doesn't mean they are bringing accidents which are beyond human power,if you concentrate a bit on wording 'accident'then you can understand what does that mean,earth quakes,typhoons,tsunamis etc,which are brought by Allah.

Why are you answering a question with a question? My point is simply that if you are going to read so much into the name 'hand of Allah', then you need to be consistent and read even more into 'spirit of Allah'.

So who denies him being spirit of Allah,He didn't have father so did He have spirit of Allah,but hands,ear,and eye are ways to access someone.

Can you touch someone's spirits,but you can touch His hands,we can't see the spirits but hand,and ear yes,so through whom to access Allah.

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Yes there are many who supplicate to Esa?

Yeah, the Christians...

O God, he who asserts that we (the Imams) have the power of creation and providing (for mankind), we (Imams) seek absolution from Thee in respect of him, an absolution similar to that of Jesus, son of Mary, in respect of the Christians. (Imam al-Ridha (as))

If i see according to my prism why don't you tell who the Aaleen were then?,Allah wasn't throwing words into air,they always bear meanings.

I'll just quote what I said in another thread on this subject:

You will need to bring some authentic narrations proving that Allah (swt) was referring to the Prophet (pbuh) and his Ahlulbayt (as) when he is said 'al-aaleen'. Because to me, it doesn't make much sense that Allah would give a direct order to someone, who doesn't obey, and then Allah asks him "why did you no obey? are you one of the al-aaleen?", which would imply that the al-aaleen wouldn't obey a direct order from Allah سبحانه وتعالى. So are you saying that if Allah (swt) ordered the Prophet (pbuh) to prostrate to Adam, then he wouldn't do it?

The letter you quote again,and again is translated into different ways,some says mediator,some intercessors,obviously we don't need anyone to make Allah hear,or convey what we say,but we need someone who can ask Allah to change our destinies even.Whose wish can influence His will.But as to hear what we say He don't need anyone He is all-hearing,infact you are looking at things with your prism.

I'm sorry, but you are seriously grasping at straws here. Most people know exactly what it is saying, which is why they are so keen to say the letter was addressed to Imam Hasan (as), so that they can say he an exception since he is an Imam.

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Why are you answering a question with a question? My point is simply that if you are going to read so much into the name 'hand of Allah', then you need to be consistent and read even more into 'spirit of Allah'.

because your question is wrong to begin with. you don't need to dwell into 'spirit of Allah' either... c'oz ultimately there's no comparison. Ahlulbayt are the A'leen whom Allah spoke about.

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Okay,i'll find the reference for that inshAllah,though i am not finding much time these days,but why don't you bring a reference who were Aaleen?,if there were none why were being referred,do you have some reference.

Say,whatever you want to extract from letter,if you believe this much in Nehj ul Balagha,then there is a sermon in it which is complete contradiction to your beliefs,but then you will call anything which you don't like as zaeef,and anything that appeal you is authentic one.So who is clutching to the straws?

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra

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