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Ricky-Dee

If Jerusalem Was Liberated

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(salam)

Omg I wanna pick two it wnt let me I think

If it were to happen I think Islam would be in its highest glory then in turn The very same Sunnis and Arabs, who haven't fired a bullet against Israel for over 40 years, would mobilize all their armies to mass slaughter the Shia, and ruine everything

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hezbollah, iran, and iraq will never "liberate" jerusalem, and their were thosands of sunni egyptians arab, sunni jordanians arab, and sunni syrian arab if we want to be sectarian who gave their lifes for palestine in 67 and 73.

Yeah what have they done SINCE THEN ? is the MIllion dollar question ?

Also, if those Sunni armies DID Liberate Jerusalem, would the Shia be treated fairly or would they be treated the same way they are treated in KSA ?

Just food for thought, dont derail this thread and think about it

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Rick James I hope Sunni's become secular and keep their religion to themselves, so we can get away from the backwardness which is mixing religion and state. Also the "Sunni" states realized that war is not the answer to the Palestinian Isralie issue and have been working to a peaceful settlement to the palestinian isralie issue which has been undermined by some parties. And where is this thread going where, o poor poor shia, sunni hate us and are just waiting to massacre us all, this victimization by people who have probably never been victimized is utterly pathetic....

Edited by Noura

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Rick James I hope Sunni's become secular and their religion stays to themselves, so we can get away from the backwardness which is mixing religion and state. And where is this thread going where, o poor poor shia, sunni hate us and are just waiting to massacre us all, this victimization by people who have probably never been victimized is utterly pathetic....

Rick James is just making a valid point. Had Muslims been an Ummah , there wouldnt be corruption between sects. The blame shouldn't just be on Israel, but also on the so called Muslims who are are making fitna amongst other sects, and funding terrorist occupations. Edited by LebanesePrincess

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The last time Jerusalem got liberated was by Salahudeen, although he isn't remembered too favourably by Shias for his obliteration of the Fatimids in Egypt - but that was more for strategic than sectarian reasons, it was a matter of his army or the Crusaders getting there first, being the bread basket of the region at the time it was vital for food supplies and other logistics.

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The last time Jerusalem got liberated was by Salahudeen, although he isn't remembered too favourably by Shias for his obliteration of the Fatimids in Egypt - but that was more for strategic than sectarian reasons, it was a matter of his army or the Crusaders getting there first, being the bread basket of the region at the time it was vital for food supplies and other logistics.

Oh that just justifies everything. lol

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Rick James I hope Sunni's become secular and keep their religion to themselves, so we can get away from the backwardness which is mixing religion and state. Also the "Sunni" states realized that war is not the answer to the Palestinian Isralie issue and have been working to a peaceful settlement to the palestinian isralie issue which has been undermined by some parties. And where is this thread going where, o poor poor shia, sunni hate us and are just waiting to massacre us all, this victimization by people who have probably never been victimized is utterly pathetic....

I really don't see the difference between the Sunni Arab religious and Sunni Arab secular folks. It is either Salafism-Takfirism or the Fascism Arabism.

It is either this:

Abdel-Latif%20Moussa%20(2nd-R)%20as%20he%20speaks%20during%20Friday%20prayers%20in%20Rafah%20in%20the%20southern%20Gaza%20Strip.jpg

... or this:

hussein.jpg

It is either the bombing of a market, the massacre of Ismailis or the oppression of people of Qatif....

or....

The massacre of Halabja & the Southern Shias or the torture houses of Mubarak's era.

Be it Islam or secularism, nothing will ever get the right test in the Sunni Arab world.

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Noah Iraq and Palestine, are individual countries with a wide spectrum on the political level and history to generalize even on those two areas is ridiculous, also Saddam used religion in his government when he was desperate, he was never a genuine secularist like Abdel Nasser who for example for the shia, pushed al azhar to regonize shias as muslims and made egypt a more foward coutry apart from Islam or Habib Bourguiba who created a modern foward tunisia. Noah when you generalize about Sunni Arabs in such a manner it does not even surve your deep hatred for them.. Also did Mubarak just torture Shia and did Saddam only kill Shia?

Edited by Noura

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.....and their were thosands of sunni egyptians arab, sunni jordanians arab, and sunni syrian arab if we want to be sectarian who gave their lifes for palestine in 67 and 73.

the unfortunate fact is that in 67 Muslims (Arabs/Sunnis) were fooled and in 73 they were fooled yet once again. The percentage of ethnic jews in KGB at times exceeded 65% during those days. And guess where Arab brothers used to get their intel from? From KGB of course. It was a heart breaking disaster. However, the Iran approach or the shia approach or the religious approach or the backward approach is far more intelligent, lean, and mean. It hasnt yet been fooled....thus making it respect-worthy.

Edited by Wahdat

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Noah Iraq and Palestine, are individual countries with a wide spectrum on the political level and history to generalize even on those two areas is ridiculous, also Saddam used religion in his government when he was desperate, he was never a genuine secularist like Abdel Nasser who for example pushed al azhar to regonize shias as muslims and made egypt a more foward coutry or Habib Bourguiba who created a modern foward tunisia. Noah when you generalize about Sunni Arabs in such a manner it does not even surve your deep hatred for them.. Also did Mubarak just torture Shia and did Saddam only kill Shia?

I didn't say what they did towards Shias only... I am talking in general.. Nasser might have pushed al-azhar to recognize Shias, but he tortured and imprisoned thousands of Sunnis who did not agree with him. That was even your favorite secular guy. What kind of secular person will chant slogans for a race and nationalism? Ohh yea, Hitler was also a secular guy in that sense! In your view and in Sunni Arab world, remove religion then do whatever you wish, that is considered secularism.

Naser, Saddam, Gaddafi, Harriri, Mahmoud Abbas, Abdullah of Jordan, King of Morocco and our Alawit brothers Al-Assad (s) (under the influence of Sunni Baathists) are the examples of secularism in the Sunni Arab world. If you deny these folks as secular, then I am failed to find any secular guy or government...

Alqaida, Salafist movements, the Wahabi government in Saudi, MB, FSA, Fatah-al Islam and likes of them are the examples of Sunni Islamists. The only group such as MB that for sometimes people could count on them also became sectarian, brutal, and fell under the feet of those who oppress the Islamic and Arab world for centuries.

Qutb_in_egyptian_prison.jpg

Qutb was tortured and finally hanged over his ideas and over his books...

Edited by Noah-

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Noah, so pushing for unity among Arab countries makes you the same as a xenophobic genocidal maniac Hitler, are Iranian nationalists the same or Pakistani nationalist the same as Hitler, is the EU a nazi organization. Nasser pushed for unity among Arabs he didn't call for the genocide of every non arab nor was he an anti semite, or xenophobic, and if you can't understand that then thats your problen. Hariri is the best example of secularism because he promotes secualrism, coexistance and democracy in lebanon and i like him, as for gaddafi, he was not a secularist he was an anarchist islamist, the king of morroco is not a secularist , nor is Abdullah of Jordan both of them use Islam as a pretext for their rule, and secularism is a not a homogeneous group or political ideology. Also, the time of Nasser Egypt was an extreamly backwards country and Nasser made it better and was an honest man who died without any foreign bank accounts, nor did he promote ignorance in his society, I am not saying he is infaliable nor is Saad Hariri or Fouad Sinora who i like, they make mistakes but they worked and work for a more foward progressive nations...

Also Bashar would not be a baath member of leader if he was not being pressured by Sunni's lololololol

the unfortunate fact is that in 67 Muslims (Arabs/Sunnis) were fooled and in 73 they were fooled yet once again. The percentage of ethnic jews in KGB at times exceeded 65% during those days. And guess where Arab brothers used to get their intel from? From KGB of course. It was a heart breaking disaster. However, the Iran approach or the shia approach or the religious approach or the backward approach is far more intelligent, lean, and mean. It hasnt yet been fooled....thus making it respect-worthy.

There are many Jews who are against Zionism, and being ethnically Jewish does not make someone religiously Jewish.

Edited by Noura

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Noah, so pushing for unity among Arab countries makes you the same as a xenophobic genocidal maniac Hitler, are Iranian nationalists the same or Pakistani nationalist the same as Hitler, is the EU a nazi organization. Nasser pushed for unity among Arabs he didn't call for the genocide of every non arab nor was he an anti semite, or xenophobic, and if you can't understand that then thats your problen. Hariri is the best example of secularism because he promotes secualrism, coexistance and democracy in lebanon and i like him, as for gaddafi, he was not a secularist he was an anarchist islamist, the king of morroco is not a secularist , nor is Abdullah of Jordan both of them use Islam as a pretext for their rule, and secularism is a not a homogeneous group or political ideology. Also, the time of Nasser Egypt was an extreamly backwards country and Nasser made it better and was an honest man who died without any foreign bank accounts, nor did he promote ignorance in his society, I am not saying he is infaliable nor is Saad Hariri or Fouad Sinora who i like, they make mistakes but they worked and work for a more foward progressive nations...

Of course unity doesn't mean to prepare for a genocide. But, that is how they do it in Arab, Persian or Pakistani nationalist movements. For a Persian nationalist to unite people, the first thing they do is to insult and blame Islam for their problems, declare hatreds towards Arabs, think of very low of Pakistanis and other people, preach LIES 24/7 and fake history. Same is true with Arabs; there is always Persians (and now together with Rafidhis) who somehow conspire against Arabs, cheap talks of Arab superiority, chant nonsense 24/7.

If you review the history of these nationalist movements, even in Europe and the Americas, it is always based on how to hate, demonize other people (a third party), and create imaginary enemies to unite people for their desired states and agendas.

I am not against a healthy call of unity that will help people to better cooperate amongst themselves.

And back to the leaders that you declared them non-secular; yes of course you do, because you in your imaginary world cannot fit them in your secularism-Arabism agendas.

And how come Harriri is a good model of secularism? He is a puppet of foreign powers. He is a friend of SAUDI Arabia (a Wahabi backward state) and receives aids just like his father did and uses Wahabi Islamists whenever he needs them for his own agendas. His hands are extended to the West and indirectly to Israel in order to fight his own countrymen in the South. He been the PM of a system where that system states that A SUNNI must be the PM, and Christain the president and the Speaker a Shia. There is no direct election to anything and there is no balance of MPs based on population in any kind of election. A sectarian system that is fully supported by Harriri and his kinds.

So, thanks for admitting at least for a few of them that you consider secular, (Harriri and the Lebanese biased sectarian system is considered a model of secularism).

Nasser did this or Nasser did that, those times were crucial and all the excuses. Why you did not comment on Nasser and his so called secular regime torturing and hanging the Sunni Islamists.. in some cases as easily doing so as the case of Sayyed Qutb for simply disagreeing with someone and imprisoning, torturing and hanging over his writing. The ame culture was carried by his friend Mubarak for the next 3 decades.

And why every single secular Arab leader been head of the state for life? Nasser died or else he was just another Mubarak, a president for life.

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Noah the Arab world is not like the US or Europe and to compare the Arab nationalism of Abdel Nasser to Nationalist groups in europe like the golden dawn, or national front, or the ndp or the kkk in America and so one is ridiculous. Abdel Nasser nor does any real Arab nationalist promtoe the equivalent of the Arab aryan.

And how come Harriri is a good model of secularism? He is a puppet of foreign powers. He is a friend of SAUDI Arabia (a Wahabi backward state) and receives aids just like his father did and uses Wahabi Islamists whenever he needs them for his own agendas. His hands are extended to the West and indirectly to Israel in order to fight his own countrymen in the South. He been the PM of a system where that system states that A SUNNI must be the PM, and Christain the president and the Speaker a Shia. There is no direct election to anything and there is no balance of MPs based on population in any kind of election. A sectarian system that is fully supported by Harriri and his kinds.

Saad Hariri uses the saudi for money (like i said he is not infallible) but he does not use the Saudi money to promote a salafi backward state in Lebanon. And when has Saad Hariri ever fought anyone in the south, the martyr rafic hariri was from south lebanon, saida, and always promoted coexistance between everyone in the south and lebanon for that matter. And the sectarian system with all its inherit problems protects lebanon from being controlled by certain parities and certain groups which would make lebanon a religious backward state and also protects and grants groups like christians and the druze influence and promtoes a diverse lebanon instead of one controlled by a singular sect or group. When lebanon can evolve into a full civil and secular system, were all rights are protected then the sectarian system will disappear.

Nasser did this or Nasser did that, those times were crucial and all the excuses. Why you did not comment on Nasser and his so called secular regime torturing and hanging the Sunni Islamists.. in some cases as easily doing so as the case of Sayyed Qutb for simply disagreeing with someone and imprisoning, torturing and hanging over his writing. The ame culture was carried by his friend Mubarak for the next 3 decades.

Its funny you support bashar repressing the mb and opposition in syria but why not in Egypt, as i said he was not infaliable and made serious mistakes in confronting the MB and its backward ideology, but the mb in egypt during his time was not an mb that was for democracy, or secularism, or a civil state, or anything close to that like it says it is now. Also Sadat when he entered into power in Egypt reversed most of Abdel Nasser's socalist and secular laws and gave way to Islamists to enter main stream egypt, and Sadat's rule was continued by Mubarak. Also Abdel Nasser did not have his family in power, nor did he have a will or appoint his son or daughter as his successor.

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Noah the Arab world is not like the US or Europe and to compare the Arab nationalism of Abdel Nasser to Nationalist groups in europe like the golden dawn, or national front, or the ndp or the kkk in America and so one is ridiculous. Abdel Nasser nor does any real Arab nationalist promtoe the equivalent of the Arab aryan.

No, not to the liks of KKK but even those who claim to live within the democratic and freedom values, but when it comes to their nationalism senses, they forget everything about humanity and the basis of secularism. Nasser or Persian or Pakistan nationalists are no better, but of course different nationalist groups have some differences.

Saad Hariri uses the saudi for money (like i said he is not infallible) but he does not use the Saudi money to promote a salafi backward state in Lebanon. And when has Saad Hariri ever fought anyone in the south, the martyr rafic hariri was from south lebanon, saida, and always promoted coexistance between everyone in the south and lebanon for that matter. And the sectarian system with all its inherit problems protects lebanon from being controlled by certain parities and certain groups which would make lebanon a religious backward state and also protects and grants groups like christians and the druze influence and promtoes a diverse lebanon instead of one controlled by a singular sect or group. When lebanon can evolve into a full civil and secular system, were all rights are protected then the sectarian system will disappear.

Of course you are here to type pages of excuses and whatever you think is right... that doesn't change the facts and the wrongs to be right. Harriri is excused for being a Wahabi radicals ally, he is excused of x and y and go on... I would call your reasoning on Harriri and the protection by the sectarian system that controls Lebanon just some excuses to escape from the reality of your soceities. It was a reason Taliban in Afghanistan and Saudi Wahabi government also present, to control their villages and different tribes, they must act as such and such. I would tell you this: these things you said here, are all cheap excuses!

Its funny you support bashar repressing the mb and opposition in syria but why not in Egypt, as i said he was not infaliable and made serious mistakes in confronting the MB and its backward ideology, but the mb in egypt during his time was not an mb that was for democracy, or secularism, or a civil state, or anything close to that like it says it is now. Also Sadat when he entered into power in Egypt reversed most of Abdel Nasser's socalist and secular laws and gave way to Islamists to enter main stream egypt, and Sadat's rule was continued by Mubarak. Also Abdel Nasser did not have his family in power, nor did he have a will or appoint his son or daughter as his successor.

I never support Bashar to repress or oppress MB or any other group.. Nasser tortured and hanged people over writing a book and different ideas, Bashar is fighting those (whom you support as a secular) plant bombs and declared war on the country on the behalf of the Zionist Mafia. I never support the presidents for life, from central Asian countries to Arab countries to Cuba. Assad happens to be one those whose father was president for life and then passed it to him after his death. In Syria my position is not because of love for Assad's fake secularist government, but because of the oppositions' positions and their activities, their foreign relations and dealings. Salafi terrorist groups also exist in Egypt, but they never got support from Saudis or other ZioSalafis to declare a war and wage an armed terrorist uprising on any government.. not at the time of Nasser or Mubarak or any... the only time a gun was taken out was when Sadaat was killed by a few people. In Syria it is about the outcome of Syria where plans are drawn how to transform the country to a ZioSalafis bastion and an anti-Shia and anti-Iran base. No such excuse existed when Sayyed Qutb and likes of him was hanged unjustly over his writings.

For your info: My position has been the same on Gaddafi's Libya and the armed terrorist opposition backed by NATO-Qatar-Saudi gangs who took power. Again, it is not about any love for president for life--Gaddafi but about the opposition groups and the intl political movement that has been working behind them.

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^ Shi bi fawer el dam ya Rick James. Their plan has always been known, and it makes me angry at kel el segregated Muslim countries. Hayki 3an bikhalo shafeet American, shakheen tahato, wa libseen diapers plan on taking over all the countries? Uffff menon keloon. And Saudia 3an ya3too masari to support this cause from tahat their dushdayshee....barki il arad tinsha' halla wa tibla3oon keloon aryahloon.

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You're thinking in too idealistic a manner, you need to ground yourself firmly in geopolitical reality.

First of all, its very hard to believe Israel could ever be as you say "liberated". The Israeli's have one of the best armies and intelligence forces in the region, not to mention the backing of the good old USA. Even if they tried to, it would be a very long drawn out war and the cost to human life would likely be enormous.

Most of the jews wont be happy about this, neither will the Christians.

Once the invasion is over, comes the occupation and formation of a new government. What will this government look like? How will it be democratically elected by the populace in the short term when it basically siezed the government by force? Will it be a democracy at all? I'm assuming some kind of Shi'a government would be installed, considering such military action in your scenario is backed by Shi'a lead forces.

The Sunni's would likely not be happy.

Most of the region would likely not be happy.

America would be furious and if Iran is directly involved, this is a perfect excuse for going to war with Iran who would now be an aggressor . It looks like certain elements of the DC political scene are just itching to invade Iran, will you serve them the excuse on a plate? It's a military reality that once you get the USA involved, the local government will be steamrolled, so will conventional military forces. It's not a matter of if they can do it, once you've awoken them, its a matter of just how long it'll take to dismantle the Iranian state and conventional military apparatus. Hopefully, Iran isn't stupid enough to sign their own death warrant.

This would be a war of aggression afterall. The international community would not look kindly on such a war. If you think the sanctions are bad now, imagine how much worse they could get, we're talking full scale naval blockades of Iran if they get involved using anything more than a few agents. If they actually put regiments on the ground, they are screwed (thats a technical term).

So, leaving out the states which would be party to this hypothetical conflict (Iran/Iraq in your example), we are left with armed millitant groups. It's a very long shot to think they could take over and successfully suppress the entire state of Israel and its military. To wage a war on this scale is a massive logistics effort and to co-ordinate the medium and long term supply of all the provisions they need to lead such a war, without being a laughable adversary, they need the backing of a state, which as per above, is extremely unlikely to happen.

Overthrowing one government with the other is just shifting symptoms around. Imagine if a town was on fire, thats pretty bad. Imagine you break a dam to put out the fire. Sure, the fire is out but the town was still destroyed in the flood anyway, which is also pretty bad. This isn't a long term fix. We need to be reasonable and diplomatic, diplomacy and reconcilation is the only way to fix this thing in the long term for the betterment of everyone. Lets hope cooler and peaceful heads prevail.

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Palestinians would become Shia en masse.

Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman, and Khaled bin Waleed is ingrained in the DNA of all Sunni-Arabs.

Palestine and alQudds will be liberated only by those who recognize the legitmacy of Khaled ibn Walid, who liberated it from the Byzantines.

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Abu Bakr, Omar, Othman, and Khaled bin Waleed is ingrained in the DNA of all Sunni-Arabs.

So why did so many Sunni Arab tribes become Shia in Iraq in the 19th century? As you know, prior to that Iraq was Sunni majority.

Edit: I also notice you seemed to have left out the 4th Rightly Guided Caliph after mentioning the first three - just goes to show the marginalization that the ahlul bayt receives that has sadly come to characterize Sunni Islam.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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It seems the only thing that unites the Arabs these days is hatred for the Shia.

I think they gave up on Israel; Shia is public enemy number one. Even the Palestinians turned against the Shia.

All of these 'liberated' Arab countries; first thing they do is attack the few Shia living there.

When you say "Islam" will be at it's "highest glory," what "Islam" are you talking about? So many forms of Islam. If the Shia liberated Jersusalem from the Israelis, the Sunnites would for sure be jealous and proceed to wage war against the Shia occupiers of Jerusalem. That's just the way Arabs are, which is why they lost all the wars they ever started...

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This is a poorly concieved "poll". Kinda inane.

This is like asking, "if Washington is liberated by evilgelical christians the result would be:

Christians would be in their highest gloria and Jesus would come,

-or-

The World would rejoice that they got rid of O-bomb-ahhh

-or-

The non-Whites would mobilize and civil war would ensue.

Yarabi

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It seems the only thing that unites the Arabs these days is hatred for the Shia.

I think they gave up on Israel; Shia is public enemy number one. Even the Palestinians turned against the Shia.

All of these 'liberated' Arab countries; first thing they do is attack the few Shia living there.

When you say "Islam" will be at it's "highest glory," what "Islam" are you talking about? So many forms of Islam. If the Shia liberated Jersusalem from the Israelis, the Sunnites would for sure be jealous and proceed to wage war against the Shia occupiers of Jerusalem. That's just the way Arabs are, which is why they lost all the wars they ever started...

Its very sad isnt it ?

Its specifically why i put it up there, because no one believes in Islam as a whole no more, its simply a few sects.

Its very sad

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So why did so many Sunni Arab tribes become Shia in Iraq in the 19th century? As you know, prior to that Iraq was Sunni majority.

Edit: I also notice you seemed to have left out the 4th Rightly Guided Caliph after mentioning the first three - just goes to show the marginalization that the ahlul bayt receives that has sadly come to characterize Sunni Islam.

I do not hold it against them. As you know, until recently, most of Iraqi Shias also used to respect the 4 Calpihs and figures like Khaled bin Waleed. At least public criticism of the Caliphs was never heard in Iraq, even today it is still to take hold.

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