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In the Name of God بسم الله

Indo-pak Shias..

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None of the above mentioned narrations corroborates with Quran,Allah repeatedly mentions Three Authorities,whether as an ULIL AMAR,or in INAMMA WALI YUK UM ALLAHU",and when commanded Prophet Mohammad(saww)to deliver message of Wilayat e Ali(as)and if He don't He Has n't done any deed of Prophethood..Surah al Maida..so When His Prophethood can't be accepted without declaring Wilayat e Ali(as),how can our prayers be?unbelievable..When u raise a point that Azaan is 18expressions,why don't u doubt HAYYA ALAL KHAIR UL AMAL instead of THIRD TESTIMONY,anyways Quran is enough proof for us..I really wonder at u by the way,when it suits u to modify an Ayat according to your ideologies,u happily do so,when we bring u an Ayat, deny it saying, Imams(as)say that,when we bring sayings of Imam(as)to refute your distorted interpretations of Quran,u simply call them zaeef,can't these be zaeef..Strange enough..And if i distorted the meaning then what else is meant by "Shahadaatehum"?

By the way,this thread isn't about Tashahud,or Azaan.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra
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It comes from a lack of education and ignorance. That is not entirely their fault. There's no need to generalise a whole nation - it's not 'so many' of them. Every community has their ignorants, not j

this post is ridiculously stupid... why dont we go about and complain about Shias from all races based on their worst examples.....

More racism and stereotyping than an English Defence League rally. Some people seem to not know racism is strongly condemned in Islam. I've heard most Iranians are secretly wanting to return to being

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None of the above mentioned narrations corroborates with Quran,Allah repeatedly mentions Three Authorities,whether as an ULIL AMAR,or in INAMMA WALI YUK UM ALLAHU",and when commanded Prophet Mohammad(saww)to deliver message of Wilayat e Ali(as)and if He don't He Has n't done any deed of Prophethood..Surah al Maida..so When His Prophethood can't be accepted without declaring Wilayat e Ali(as),how can our prayers be?unbelievable..When u raise a point that Azaan is 18expressions,why don't u doubt HAYYA ALAL KHAIR UL AMAL instead of THIRD TESTIMONY,anyways Quran is enough proof for us..I really wonder at u by the way,when it suits u to modify an Ayat according to your ideologies,u happily do so,when we bring u an Ayat, deny it saying, Imams(as)say that,when we bring sayings of Imam(as)to refute your distorted interpretations of Quran,u simply call them zaeef,can't these be zaeef..Strange enough..And if i distorted the meaning then what else is meant by "Shahadaatehum"?

By the way,this thread isn't about Tashahud,or Azaan.

This question is a result of the speeches made by irresponsible, ill-mannered and ignorant speakers, who base their speeches on their personal interpretations. Factually, the ayat

وَالَّذِينَ هُم بِشَهَادَاتِهِمْ قَائِمُونَ

"And those who stand firm in their testimonies;" (Al-Ma’aarij 70:33)"

has no relation with namaz or tashahhud of namaz.

http://www.sibtain.com/en/Questions_Answers_Third_Shahadat.aspx

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To the OP:

Many Indo-Pak ppl have corrupted the religion incorrectly ... they have started to take certain hadith n tafseer outta contxt to promote Imam Ali as to a status far greater than he is. Unfortunately these are the same people who mislead people with their own fantasies.

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To the OP:

Many Indo-Pak ppl have corrupted the religion incorrectly ... they have started to take certain hadith n tafseer outta contxt to promote Imam Ali as to a status far greater than he is. Unfortunately these are the same people who mislead people with their own fantasies.

oNLY Those living in west,or Iran,Iraq knows the Religion correctly?..Nobody in Iran has ever made any effort to censor those Traditions in books like kafi,which says Quran has been distorted (nauzbilah),or Allama majilisi's riwayat where Prophet(saww)shows disaapointment for birth of Hussain because He will be martyred,and there are many other things that are blasphemous should i quote them as well?These references are being taken by anti-shias since centuries nobody in gr8islamic republic bothered to take any notice for reviewing these books again,and extract out the blasphemous materials from them.Only we seem to corrupt religion,when Iranis jump on fire on Noroz,nobody calls it insanity.That will be decided by Imam e Zamana(as)who is taking Ali(as)'s status to where u r nobody to decide,if u think u r right,stick to your own beliefs,we need no dictations from those who themselves have corrupted things a lot.Instead of logical replies to those Ayats,and Tafaseer,it's quite easy to say,they are out of context.Time will tell only who is misleading whom,wait for the awaited moment only.U'll know soon,inshAllah. Edited by Kaniz e Zahra
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To the OP:

Many Indo-Pak ppl have corrupted the religion incorrectly ... they have started to take certain hadith n tafseer outta contxt to promote Imam Ali as to a status far greater than he is. Unfortunately these are the same people who mislead people with their own fantasies.

<sigh> Yet more racist piffle. Where is the largest population of Nusehris/Alawis currently? CLUE: It isn't in Pakistan.

Exactly which Pakistani Shi'ah people of influence have "mislead people with their own fantasies" and what are these fantasies?

Names and details please rather than lazy conjecture and un-Islamic xenophobia.

ALI

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What d'you mean? What interpretation?

Salam,

Interpreting the hadith out of its context, which is the context of Pilgrims in Mecca.

Maybe Allah (swt) will give priority to the lovers of Imam Hussain (as) amongst all Hajjis at Arafat, but what about the people who are not there for their wajibats ?

In a similar way, Allah will certainly prefer a mo'min who prays 51 rakats a day, however the 17 wajib rakats cannot be skipped.

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lolz...InshAllah sure :shifty:

on second thought I imagine the survivors will be eating the camels because most people will be short of food due to lack of infrastructure :P (if the hypothetical nukes go off)

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on second thought I imagine the survivors will be eating the camels because most people will be short of food due to lack of infrastructure :P (if the hypothetical nukes go off)

Yes,and there are predictions of famine as well,it'll be a sort of adventure,lolz...since so many days u were thinking about nukes? :mellow: I don't know what will happen to the world,or us,but the idea of meeting our Imam(as)is so much Charming,that even world war doesn't appear to be deterring..i hope u got my point..u a sis,or bro?..btw u have put up a nice warning beneath.. Edited by Kaniz e Zahra
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<sigh> Yet more racist piffle. Where is the largest population of Nusehris/Alawis currently? CLUE: It isn't in Pakistan.

Exactly which Pakistani Shi'ah people of influence have "mislead people with their own fantasies" and what are these fantasies?

Names and details please rather than lazy conjecture and un-Islamic xenophobia.

ALI

Completely irrelevant to what I said.

Sometime i think people just post to get a high post count.

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Completely irrelevant to what I said.

Sometime i think people just post to get a high post count.

It's completely relevant or are you suffering from selective amnesia? In which case re-read what you wrote.

I didn't expect a proper answer but hey-ho; my 1100 posts in 8+ years against your 400 in 16 months means you must be right about my motive for posting....

ALI

Edited by Kismet110
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why are so many of them so fanatical and shirky in their behaviour? many of them give a really bad name to shias, saying they'd rather go to karbala then mecca, being obsessed with tatbir, etc etc etc.

also, what the hell is it with indo-pak shia guys who wear ear rings and say it's to follow the example of Imam Hussein (as), astaghfirullah.

too much hindu/sikh infilitration imo

To the OP:

Many Indo-Pak ppl have corrupted the religion incorrectly ... they have started to take certain hadith n tafseer outta contxt to promote Imam Ali as to a status far greater than he is. Unfortunately these are the same people who mislead people with their own fantasies.

<sigh> Yet more racist piffle. Where is the largest population of Nusehris/Alawis currently? CLUE: It isn't in Pakistan.

Exactly which Pakistani Shi'ah people of influence have "mislead people with their own fantasies" and what are these fantasies?

Names and details please rather than lazy conjecture and un-Islamic xenophobia.

ALI

How does the red have anything to do with the blue?

And as for your last part ... Im not going to Hijack this thread ... if you require details start a new topic in which ill respond.

Ws.

P.s. When there's a general knowledge quiz we'll surely invite you.

Edited by Sheraz
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^^^

Maybe it's all the supposed rain in Manchester, or you're a United fan but the red and blue are talking about the exact same thing.

Promoting Imam Ali (as) to a greater status would mean something beyond being an Imam, no? So what is 'above' Imam in this context? There is no cult that calls Maula Ali (as) a Prophet afaik but there is one that (mazhallah) calls him God.

And it's not my "last part". You wrote it, I asked you to provide names/evidence which you obviously can't - so you ask me to start a new thread about your claim?!?

When there's a logic test I'll be inviting you...

ALI

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Maybe it's all the supposed rain in Manchester, or you're a United fan but the red and blue are talking about the exact same thing.

Promoting Imam Ali (as) to a greater status would mean something beyond being an Imam, no? So what is 'above' Imam in this context? There is no cult that calls Maula Ali (as) a Prophet afaik but there is one that (mazhallah) calls him God.

Lol. This is the whole problem with many Shias. The only form of ghuluw according to them is making Imam Ali (as) equal to Allah. There are indeed ways olevating his status above what it is, and below that of Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, and the Imams (as) had to deal with it in their day as well.

And it is related from Zurara that he said: I said to Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq that a man from among the descendants of Abdu'l-lah b. Saba' is a believer in (the doctrine of) delegation (tafwid). And he said: And what is tafwid? I (Zurara) said: According to him Allah, the Mighty and Glorious, (in the first instance) created Muhammad and 'Ali, and then delegated the matter (of creation) to them, and these two created and gave sustenance, and caused life and death. The Imam said: He, the enemy of Allah, has lied. When you return to him recite to him the verse of the Chapter of The Thunder: "Or assign they unto Allah partners who created the like of His creation so that the creation (which they made and His creation) seemed alike to them? Say: Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Almighty" [13:16]. Then I went to the man and informed him of what Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq had said: And he became as if I had forced him to swallow stones or as though he were struck dumb.

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Lol. This is the whole problem with many Shias. The only form of ghuluw according to them is making Imam Ali (as) equal to Allah. There are indeed ways olevating his status above what it is, and below that of Allah سبحانه وتعالى, and the Imams (as) had to deal with it in their day as well.

And it is related from Zurara that he said: I said to Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq that a man from among the descendants of Abdu'l-lah b. Saba' is a believer in (the doctrine of) delegation (tafwid). And he said: And what is tafwid? I (Zurara) said: According to him Allah, the Mighty and Glorious, (in the first instance) created Muhammad and 'Ali, and then delegated the matter (of creation) to them, and these two created and gave sustenance, and caused life and death. The Imam said: He, the enemy of Allah, has lied. When you return to him recite to him the verse of the Chapter of The Thunder: "Or assign they unto Allah partners who created the like of His creation so that the creation (which they made and His creation) seemed alike to them? Say: Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Almighty" [13:16]. Then I went to the man and informed him of what Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq had said: And he became as if I had forced him to swallow stones or as though he were struck dumb.

http://www.shiachat....and-delegation/

Read classical texts thoroughly u seriously need to know what Imams(as)have said about their and their Ancestors's authorities.
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Read classical texts thoroughly u seriously need to know what Imams(as)have said about their and their Ancestors's authorities.

Do you agree with "Allah, the Mighty and Glorious, (in the first instance) created Muhammad and 'Ali, and then delegated the matter (of creation) to them, and these two created and gave sustenance, and caused life and death."?

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not agreed with the second part,but their being a first creation i agreed..secondly,we ppl of indo-pak don't say they created life and death,but their supervision,and recommendation plays a vital role in Allah's decsion regarding life,and death,and in other matters.

I wasn't defending the whole idea in this tradition,but the point that it was being unjustly related to ppl of sub-continent,that was my point.

We say everything was created by Allah,but they were His adminstrator in executing His commands,like in Kitab al-Tauheed,they were referred as Hands,Eyes,Face of Allah by Imams(as),whatever they do is purely a role of adminstrator,but ultimate authority lies with Allah.

Edited by Kaniz e Zahra
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not agreed with the second part,but their being a first creation i agreed..secondly,we ppl of indo-pak don't say they created life and death,but their supervision,and recommendation plays a vital role in Allah's decsion regarding life,and death,and in other matters.

I wasn't defending the whole idea in this tradition,but the point that it was being unjustly related to ppl of sub-continent,that was my point.

We say everything was created by Allah,but they were His adminstrator in executing His commands,like in Kitab al-Tauheed,they were referred as Hands,Eyes,Face of Allah by Imams(as),whatever they do is purely a role of adminstrator,but ultimate authority lies with Allah.

I'm not addressing it to subcontinent Shias. If you pay attention to what I wrote, you will see that I was using it to prove that there are other ways of exaggerating the status of Imam Ali (as) without making him equal to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

As for your beliefs, I don't see much difference from what was posted above. They also believed that the ultimate authority was with Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

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Do you agree with "Allah, the Mighty and Glorious, (in the first instance) created Muhammad and 'Ali, and then delegated the matter (of creation) to them, and these two created and gave sustenance, and caused life and death."?

Isn't that ghuluw pure and simple?

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Isn't that ghuluw pure and simple?

Yeah, but many people have beliefs that are pretty close to this, or in fact identical to this. Also, you often hear people saying that the only way to exaggerate the status of the Ahlulbayt (as) is to make them equal to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, which is simply not true. The fact is, there are many ways of exaggerating the status of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Ahlulbayt (as), some of which were dealt with by the Imams (as) (since they arose in their day), and some which they didn't explicitly say anything about since those exact beliefs weren't around yet.

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I'm not addressing it to subcontinent Shias. If you pay attention to what I wrote, you will see that I was using it to prove that there are other ways of exaggerating the status of Imam Ali (as) without making him equal to Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

As for your beliefs, I don't see much difference from what was posted above. They also believed that the ultimate authority was with Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

I didn't invent these beliefs,they are saved in History,in classical texts,even still manifested in several ways..no matter if u find difference,or not,there is a difference,creating something,and adminstrating something is too different,if u apply logic,can your housemaids be your equal?if they are carrying out your work,they become owner of the house according to your theory.And if u find labourforce to construct something,they become the architect of the building,or just they are working on His design,labouring upon his creativity.??
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I didn't invent these beliefs,they are saved in History,in classical texts,even still manifested in several ways..no matter if u find difference,or not,there is a difference,creating something,and adminstrating something is too different,if u apply logic,can your housemaids be your equal?if they are carrying out your work,they become owner of the house according to your theory.And if u find labourforce to construct something,they become the architect of the building,or just they are working on His design,labouring upon his creativity.??

I think you are missing the point. Those who believed in tafwid (delegation) DID NOT believe that the Imams (as) were equal to Allah. However, they were still severely condemned by the Imams (as).

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So when they themselves mention their Status,they were exaggerating(nauzbillah),everything we believe was present in those ages,and endorsed by Masoomeen(as),i 've discussed them a lot.I have even lot more things,but this isn't thread for that topic.

I think you are missing the point. Those who believed in tafwid (delegation) DID NOT believe that the Imams (as) were equal to Allah. However, they were still severely condemned by the Imams (as).

So who is defending that tradition here,which u mentioned above,have i said it's true to say they created life,and death,etc etc.?They were condemned because they were saying life,and death was created by them,so when every Nafs has to die,then nauzbillah are creators of life,and death going to die?the idea was ridiculous,so condemned by Imams(as),simply.It is also defined here,what the tafwid is it's not a belief in delegation of adminstrating universal affairs by will of God,but idea of them being creator of life,and death etc. Edited by Kaniz e Zahra
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Saying 'ya Ali' whenever you see something amazing is a small example. Most Muslims would just say Allahu akbar or subhanallah.

Saying 'ya Ali' whenever you see something amazing is a small example. Most Muslims would just say Allahu akbar or subhanallah.

If u have ever attend an indo-paki Majlis u can see all three slogans,Allah o Akbar,Ya Rasool Allah(saww),Ya Ali(as)...and YA ALI(AS)isn't exceptional to Shias of indo-pak,but also in Iran,where even doorbells have the same Slogan.I wonder which Shia world u have interacted with,and when we find any amazing creation of God,obviously we say Subhan Allah..again i would say keep your racist stance to yourself.
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and the hits keep on coming..

the shirkish behaviours from asians in particular is alarming

exhibit A: guy getting shot at with live bullets..calls out for the Mahdi instead of Allah

exhibit B: 'Imam Ali wasn't human'

exhibit C: facing a perilous situation, so calls out ya Ali madad

[Edited]

What's the difference here between an Alawi and a Shiite?

This is disgusting and extremely common with Indo/Pak shias, and some iraqis too.

That's not Islam.

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exhibit A: guy getting shot at with live bullets..calls out for the Mahdi instead of Allah

Wow. I've seen many things on this forum, but dissing someone for calling out to the Imam of time when facing live bullets takes the cake.

If he would have called for his mother instead I'm guessing you wouldn't have had an issue.

Wallahu A'lam

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Wow. I've seen many things on this forum, but dissing someone for calling out to the Imam of time when facing live bullets takes the cake.

If he would have called for his mother instead I'm guessing you wouldn't have had an issue.

Wallahu A'lam

I've got too many warnings to risk insulting you but what you just said is an absolute JOKE.

The Mahdi (ajf) is to come and be the Imam in the final days..he does NOT HAVE THE POWER OF Allah.

[Edit]

72:18 The places of worship belong to God; so call not, along with God, upon anyone.
72:20 Say: 'I call only upon my Lord, and I do not associate with Him anyone.
Edited by inshaAllah
Please avoid calling other members mushrik.
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What rubbish you spout - are you a Shi'ah? How is calling on the present Imam (ajtf) shirk? And who is equating with Allah (JJH)?

Present a single narration or ruling from a cleric that calling to a living Imam (ajtf) is shirk rather than boring us with what you personally find 'disgusting'.

ALI

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What rubbish you spout - are you a Shi'ah? How is calling on the present Imam (ajtf) shirk? And who is equating with Allah (JJH)?

Present a single narration or ruling from a cleric that calling to a living Imam (ajtf) is shirk rather than boring us with what you personally find 'disgusting'.

ALI

You're so simple minded it's not even funny.

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Clearly ignoring the ayahs I posted up. If you do not consider the Qu'ran as sufficient proof, I don't know what to tell you.

72:18 The places of worship belong to God; so call not, along with God, upon anyone.
72:20 Say: 'I call only upon my Lord, and I do not associate with Him anyone.
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