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The Place Of Harun To Musa Hadith.

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I would say this is one of contributing factors to shia faith while I was a Shia Muslim.

I've come to re-analyze this hadith without shia bias as I had before and I wanted to share my conclusions.

The Sunnis see the manzilat (place) to mean in specific context, that you are taking the place Harun had with Musa (when he left his people behind for forty days).

The Shias see it as general statement, not specific to context.

One thing that Sunnis don't seem to take account of, is actually what position Harun did have with Musa, when Musa was away.

The Quran shows he had position of a Guide, not simply a person to be obeyed in temporal issues. Rather he was a total source of guidance. His authority was also linked back to God, that obeying him was essentially obeying God.

There is more to it. The awe and respect needed to be given to him, was similar to what needed to be given to Musa. The love and honor he was to be given, was similar to that which was given to Musa.

Musa didn't simply have the position of temporal authority or ruler, that when he said to Harun, to take his place, that he was simply taking that place.

The love, honor, respect, and trust, in him, was that of position Musa. They needed to take his position as one that would never misguide them but always guide them.

Essentially, what is shown from here, is that it doesn't matter if it's seen in the specific context or the general context.

Now so far, all Shias are like "Yes, checkmate Sunnis". But here is a counter argument. And it comes under "what is the true definition of a Prophet".

You see an issue is with words like "Du'a" (Prayer), "Zakat" (Alms) etc, it seems they have meanings, but people define things that are awful similar to be something different.

A small child, called Imam Hussain a Nabi, and my brother corrected him, and said he is not a Nabi, Mohammad is the last Nabi, and Imam Hussain is an Imam.

I wonder why the kid thought that. It couldn't be because his parents told him Imam Hussain is a Nabi.

It's perhaps because they are awfully similar, or it's perhaps in reality, the word as we learn it seems to imply that they are that.

When we read about Messengers in Quran preaching to their people, it doesn't seem they are simply reciting God's words through an Angel. It seems they are arguing with their people with their own words. But neverless, the message is essentially from God, because the meaning is exactly what he wants them to convey.

Fallibles have messages they convey to people, things they want to say, and Muslims often believe their preachers are preaching message of Islam which is from God.

A Messenger in context of Quran refers to a Messenger that has been appointed by God. The Messenger of God.

Harun when people started worshiping a calf, had a message towards them, and he was a messenger on behalf of God. Seemingly, it's his own words that he is using, but it's in tune with what God wants with him, and he is trusted by God to teach and guide.

This essentially what makes a Messenger a messenger. Whether informed by Gabreil or a Prophet, what is essential is that they are trusted as "Absolute Authorities" or as the Quran expresses, "And we made them Leaders whom guide by our command".

As Mariam was spoken to by Angels, and nothing in Quran seems to imply she was a Prophet, rather the opposite by the verse that God didn't send any except men whom he revealed to. Like wise, Musa's mother doesn't seem to be a Prophet either.

Many Shia hadiths have Imams been spoken to, and they are called "muhadaths".

But putting that aside, whether the medium of "information" is an Angel or a Human (Mohammad), what makes a Messenger is that his message is conveyed on behalf of God, he is representative of God.

Essentially, a person with divine authority, high position of Musa or Harun, essentially has that position of Prophethood.

So a Sunni can argue, whether the context is general or specific, the except of Prophethood means he exactly is not a representative of God, doesn't have divine authority, or position of essential guidance from God.

That position of conveying on behalf of God, is basically what a Prophet seems to be.

This a counter argument. Of course Shias would never want to define Messengerhood in the way I defined it, but if you really think about it, it seems this is the way Quran has defined it.

Messengers were sent with books, but they were Messengers even before they revealed a book from God - but rather while they were preaching the message to Worship God alone, etc, in their own words.

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ثنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى ، حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ حَمَّادٍ ، عَنْ أَبِي عَوَانَةَ ، عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ سُلَيْمٍ أَبِي بَلْجٍ ، عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ مَيْمُونٍ ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ ، قَالَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لِعَلِيٍّ : " أَنْتَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَى ، إِلا أَنَّكَ لَسْتَ نَبِيًّا ، إِنَّهُ لا يَنْبَغِي أَنْ أَذْهَبَ إِلا وَأَنْتَ خَلِيفَتِي فِي كُلِّ مُؤْمِنٍ مِنْ بَعْدِي

Narrated from Ibn Abbas: The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) said to Ali: "You are to me like Harun in relation to Moses, the only difference is that there is no Prophet after me. And truly I ought to go only if you're my Caliph for every believer after me. "

Al-Sunnah by Ibn Abi Asim Vol 3, page 183

→ Zilalatil Jannah Fi Tahridzhis Sunnah by Albani page 519-520 Hadith Number # 1188

'Isnaad is valid and transmitters are reliable'

+ I have scans

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Now so far, all Shias are like "Yes, checkmate Sunnis".

lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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Who succeeded Musa (as) when he (Musa (as)) left for 40 days? :)

Who succeeded Musa (as) after he died is a more important question. The answer for that is surely not Harun (as). Therefore, ahadith like this, simply don't prove Imamate of 12 imams. Edited by Abu Muslim
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Who succeeded Musa (as) after he died is a more important question. The answer for that is surely not Harun (as). Therefore, ahadith like this, simply don't prove Imamate of 12 imams.

You did not answer to my question so

Who succeeded Musa (as) when he (Musa (as)) left for 40 days?

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Who succeeded Musa (as) after he died is a more important question. The answer for that is surely not Harun (as). Therefore, ahadith like this, simply don't prove Imamate of 12 imams.

Did Prophet (pbuh) say that or it is something that you come up with?

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You did not answer to my question so

Who succeeded Musa (as) when he (Musa (as)) left for 40 days?

How does taking care of affairs for 40 days amount to being Successor? There is really no way you can say this hadith justifies imamate. It's simple , Harun was never Musa's successor. If this hadith is indeed about permanent successor then it would be "You are to me like Yusha was to Musa" because it was Yusha that was the successor of Musa. Ali (ra) was not the only person to be left as a deputy of Medina at the time of the Prophet (SAW), other companions were left behind in other occasions. It was Ali (ra) who didn't want to stay behind, hence the prophet SAW informed Ali that him staying behind is indeed an honour similar to how it was an honour for Harun (as) to be a deputy of Musa (as) Edited by Abu Muslim
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stop playing this game and answer like a man !he asked you first -> plz go on speak brother jazak Allah !

I assumed he already knew the answer to his own question. It was Harun (as). Like I said earlier, there were others ,such as Uthman bin Affan (ra), that were left behind as deputies during the time of the Prophet SAW. This is indeed an honour to be left behind as a deputy but it is no way a claim to caliphate. Otherwise, all the others who were left behind as deputies could use such an event to support their claim to caliphate. If Ali (ra) did not use this incident to support a claim to caliphate, then how can Shias themselves come to this conclusion based on this hadith? Edited by Abu Muslim
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A small child, called Imam Hussain a Nabi, and my brother corrected him, and said he is not a Nabi, Mohammad is the last Nabi, and Imam Hussain is an Imam.

I wonder why the kid thought that. It couldn't be because his parents told him Imam Hussain is a Nabi.

It's perhaps because they are awfully similar, or it's perhaps in reality, the word as we learn it seems to imply that they are that.

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Any honest human being would admit to the fact that if the Prophet (as) did not appoint a successor then he would have made a monumental mistake because there would be no doubt that an absence of a successor would cause conflict within the Muslim community. A question to the Bakri's: has any Prophet in history ever left this world without leaving a successor? If the Prophet left no successor than what was the point of Ghadir Khumm? You actually think that the Prophet (as) would gather everyone in the desert heat just to announce that Imam Ali (as) is his friend? LOL!! You people are just as deluded as the Christians who can't explain the trinity yet still say Allah (SWT) is one but also three. Similarly, Bakri's say that the Prophet did not announce his successor, left this world leaving his entire family without any inheritance (excluding his wives coincidentally) and was poisoned four years before his death. Then things get even better. You claim your khalifa's are democratically elected! Hahaha....what rubbish. The first usurper was picked by a handful of people and any dissenters were bashed into submission by a cowardly thug i.e. Umar (LA) who ran away from every battle where the Prophet needed his help i.e. Uhud and Hunayn. Then the second usurper was personally selected. Get your story straight you con artists. Your religion is totally fabricated drivel. I wish to Allah (SWT) that your fake seen gets exposed to the entire world and your cowardly, Nawasib murdering thugs for khalifas are exposed for the kafirs and munafiqs they are. Your all deluded....WAKE UP AND USE UR BRAIN....DON'T JUST FOLLOW THE RELIGION OF YOUR FATHERS AND MOTHERS OR YOUR DESTINATION COULD VERY WELL BE HELL.

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How does taking care of affairs for 40 days amount to being Successor? There is really no way you can say this hadith justifies imamate. It's simple

Do you have proof that in order to be a successor of Prophet (as) you must be successor of Prophet (as) for more that 40 days?

Harun was never Musa's successor.

I assumed he already knew the answer to his own question. It was Harun .

contradiction huh?

If this hadith is indeed about permanent successor then it would be "You are to me like Yusha was to Musa" because it was Yusha that was the successor of Musa. Ali was not the only person to be left as a deputy of Medina at the time of the Prophet (SAW),

Is that you who decided that or it is our Prophet (pbuh)? it seems like you! (by your claims)

also Prophet (pbuh) never said that they were like 'Harun (as) was to Musa (as)'

And Harun (as) was Musa (as) successor

other companions were left behind in other occasions. It was Ali who didn't want to stay behind, hence the prophet SAW informed Ali that him staying behind is indeed an honour similar to how it was an honour for Harun to be a deputy of Musa

Were did Prophet (pbuh) explain that like you did? Did Prophet (pbuh) compare them to Harun (as) successor of Musa (as) ? No he did not!

حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى عَنْ شُعْبَةَ عَنْ الْحَكَمِ عَنْ مُصْعَبِ بْنِ سَعْدٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ خَرَجَ إِلَى تَبُوكَ وَاسْتَخْلَفَ عَلِيًّا فَقَالَ أَتُخَلِّفُنِي فِي الصِّبْيَانِ وَالنِّسَاءِ قَالَ أَلَا تَرْضَى أَنْ تَكُونَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَى إِلَّا أَنَّهُ لَيْسَ نَبِيٌّ بَعْدِي وَقَالَ أَبُو دَاوُدَ حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ عَنْ الْحَكَمِ سَمِعْتُ مُصْعَبًا

Sahih Bukhari Hadith Number # 4416

'with the only difference is that after me there will be no Prophets?'

If it is not about 'Imamat/successorship' then why does Prophet (pbuh) say this?

Edited by Rasul
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The question to be answered is that, if the ummat cannot be left for 40 days without an official "guide" then how can they be left without guidance forever (or at least till the end of time).....

If ummat cannot be left for 40 days without a Guide, then obviously they cannot be left forever without guidance. That's obvious.

However, the statement "If ummat was left with a guide for forty days in absence of another guide, then does it mean they have to have a guide present in all times". The answer is not so obvious now.

Also to note, Musa was essentially away from them, in the same way Imam Mahdi is away from the ummah now. He wasn't dead. So if Imam Mahdi can leave people without an official guide, then the obvious answer would be "no".

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also Prophet never said that they were like 'Harun was to Musa

And Harun was Musa successor

Were did Prophet (pbuh) explain that like you did? Did Prophet (pbuh) compare them to Harun (as) successor of Musa (as) ? No he did not!

حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى عَنْ شُعْبَةَ عَنْ الْحَكَمِ عَنْ مُصْعَبِ بْنِ سَعْدٍ عَنْ أَبِيهِ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ خَرَجَ إِلَى تَبُوكَ وَاسْتَخْلَفَ عَلِيًّا فَقَالَ أَتُخَلِّفُنِي فِي الصِّبْيَانِ وَالنِّسَاءِ قَالَ أَلَا تَرْضَى أَنْ تَكُونَ مِنِّي بِمَنْزِلَةِ هَارُونَ مِنْ مُوسَى إِلَّا أَنَّهُ لَيْسَ نَبِيٌّ بَعْدِي وَقَالَ أَبُو دَاوُدَ حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ عَنْ الْحَكَمِ سَمِعْتُ مُصْعَبًا

Sahih Bukhari Hadith Number # 4416

'with the only difference is that after me there will be no Prophets?'

If it is not about 'Imamat/successorship' then why does Prophet (pbuh) say this?

Like I said just being a temporary deputy in Medina does not equal to successorship. The fact that Musa was temporary ruler for 40 days yet did not become Musa's ultimate successor proves that point. If it really does equal to imamate, then it means Uthman (ra) should have also been the next khalif because he too was a deputy of Medina for some time. The reason why this phrase was uttered at all was because Ali (ra) felt that he was being left behind because of some sort of inability. But the Prophet SAW reassured him that being a deputy of a prophet is an honourable thing, this honour applied to the other deputies.The Prophet SAW has uttered the phrase 'There will be no prophets after me' on other occcassions, this is to clarify that divine leadership has ended.

We know in Islam that there are prophets and messengers, but of course the concept of imamate was alien to the prophet SAW. Therefore, its not possible that he was talking about imamate. If he was indeed talking about a position similar to prophethood, are you gonna say Umar (ra) is an Imam as well based on this narration "If there were a Prophet after me verily it would be `Umar". It doesn't help the shia cause when narations are twisted to prove a concept that simply doesn't exist in the Quran or the books of the Sunnah.

Edited by Abu Muslim
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Like I said just being a temporary deputy in Medina does not equal to successorship. The fact that Musa was temporary ruler for 40 days yet did not become Musa's ultimate successor proves that point. If it really does equal to imamate, then it means Uthman (ra) should have also been the next khalif because he too was a deputy of Medina for some time. The reason why this phrase was uttered at all was because Ali (ra) felt that he was being left behind because of some sort of inability. But the Prophet SAW reassured him that being a deputy of a prophet is an honourable thing, this honour applied to the other deputies.The Prophet SAW has uttered the phrase 'There will be no prophets after me' on other occcassions, this is to clarify that divine leadership has ended.

We know in Islam that there are prophets and messengers, but of course the concept of imamate was alien to the prophet SAW. Therefore, its not possible that he was talking about imamate. If he was indeed talking about a position similar to prophethood, are you gonna say Umar (ra) is an Imam as well based on this narration "If there were a Prophet after me verily it would be `Umar". It doesn't help the shia cause when narations are twisted to prove a concept that simply doesn't exist in the Quran or the books of the Sunnah.

mention of Imamat is there in Quran,when eyes of hearts are closed nothing can be seen,Prophet(saww)could use another words for assurance,they r predicting something u can't swallow,..the thing which u narrated abt umar is nowhere recognized by Shias,and if concept of Imamat was so alienated,then why do sunnis call Imam Hassan(as),and Imam Hussain(as),if this concept was no where,then do they say so on gun point? Edited by Kaniz e Zahra
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mention of Imamat is there in Quran,when eyes of hearts are closed nothing can be seen,Prophet(saww)could use another words for assurance,they r predicting something u can't swallow,..the thing which u narrated abt umar is nowhere recognized by Shias,and if concept of Imamat was so alienated,then why do sunnis call Imam Hassan(as),and Imam Hussain(as),if this concept was no where,then do they say so on gun point?

Is the concept of imamate as shias know it in the quran? I know well the word Imam is in the quran just as the word Khalifah/Khalif is in the quran. And I also know Ibrahim is an Imam and Dawud is a caliph in the Quran..but the word Imam just means leader and the word Khalif means successor, none of the two have anything to do with the Shia concept of imamate or the sunni concept of khilafah.But is the concept of imamate of 12 imams there? Well, these are both our narrations about Ali and Umar, you don't pick and choose which hadiths you take from us. If you want to use our books against us then you will have to accept the hadiths we bring from our books. Otherwise, don't use our books if you are only willing to take the parts that suit you. Edited by Abu Muslim
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Like I said just being a temporary deputy in Medina does not equal to successorship. The fact that Musa was temporary ruler for 40 days yet did not become Musa's ultimate successor proves that point.

Ali (as) was not just temporary deputy but he was (successor) Authentic Sunni Hadith proves that (like I posted in post #1)

Nothing proves your point, If Musa (as) would die before Harun (as) then he Harun (as) would be again his succesor

Just becouse Harun (as) died before Musa (as) does not mean that he Harun (as) was not his succesor

Musa (as) Prophet → Harun (as) Prophet his (successor)

Muhammad (pbuh) Prophet → Ali (as) Imam his (successor)

'Exception there will be no Prophet after me'

If it really does equal to imamate, then it means Uthman should have also been the next khalif because he too was a deputy of Medina for some time.

Ex Idol Worshiper ? No Prophet/Imam (asws) has been Ex Idol Worshiper Muhammed (pbuh) did not say that Uthman was to him like Harun (as) was to Musa (as) (successor)

The reason why this phrase was uttered at all was because Ali felt that he was being left behind because of some sort of inability. But the Prophet SAW reassured him that being a deputy of a prophet is an honourable thing,

Were did you take this from? have Prophet (pbuh) explained this like you?

.The Prophet SAW has uttered the phrase 'There will be no prophets after me' on other occcassions, this is to clarify that divine leadership has ended.

I didn't ask about other occasions? Can you once answer clearly to my question?

We know in Islam that there are prophets and messengers, but of course the concept of imamate was alien to the prophet SAW. Therefore, its not possible that he was talking about imamate.

It doesn't help the shia cause when narations are twisted to prove a concept that simply doesn't exist in the Quran or the books of the Sunnah.

You are only a warner, and for every nation there is the one who guides to the straight path (Quran 13:7)

Authentic Sunni Hadith proves what Shia say:

ÃóÎúÈóÑóäóÇ ÃóÈõæ ÚóãúÑòæ ÚõËúãóÇäõ Èúäõ ÃóÍúãóÏó Èúäö ÇáÓøóãøóÇßö¡ ËóäóÇ ÚóÈúÏõ ÇáÑøóÍúãóäö Èúäõ ãõÍóãøóÏö Èúäö ãóäúÕõæÑò ÇáúÍóÇÑöËöíøõ¡ ËóäóÇ ÍõÓóíúäõ Èúäõ ÍóÓóäò ÇáúÃóÔúÞóÑõ¡ ËóäóÇ ãóäúÕõæÑõ Èúäõ ÃóÈöí ÇáúÃóÓúæóÏö¡ Úóäö ÇáúÃóÚúãóÔö¡ Úóäö ÇáúãöäúåóÇáö Èúäö ÚóãúÑòæ¡ Úóäú ÚóÈøóÇÏö Èúäö ÚóÈúÏö Çááøóåö ÇáúÃóÓóÏöíøö¡ Úóäú Úóáöíøò‏:‏ ‏(‏ÅöäøóãóÇ ÃóäúÊó ãõäúÐöÑñ æóáößõáøö Þóæúãò åóÇÏò‏)‏ ÞóÇáó Úóáöíøñ‏:‏ ÑóÓõæáõ Çááøóåö- Õóáøóì Çááøóåõ Úóáóíúåö æóÂáöåö æóÓóáøóãó- ÇáúãõäúÐöÑõ¡ æóÃóäóÇ ÇáúåóÇÏöí‏.‏

åóÐóÇ ÍóÏöíËñ ÕóÍöíÍõ ÇáúÅöÓúäóÇÏö æóáóãú íõÎúÑöÌóÇåõ

Al-Mustadrak alaa al-Sahihain, Hakim al-Nishaburi, Book of the Knowing Companions, Chapter: Ali Leader of the righteous,

Narrated from Ali who said: (You - only warner, and for every nation there is the one who guides to the straight path), The Messenger of Allah is a warner, and I am the guide

-------------------------

Hakim: Hadith have authentic isnaad but Bukhari and Muslim did not include this hadith in their collections.

If he was indeed talking about a position similar to prophethood, are you gonna say Umar is an Imam as well based on this narration "If there were a Prophet after me verily it would be `Umar".

Úmar was Jaheel

Úmar was born from adultery

Úmar worshiped idols

Úmar was alcohol drinker

Úmar used to be with Prostitutes

Úmar made idols from dates and worshiped them

Úmar tried to kill Prophet 3 times

and more

"If there were a Prophet after me verily it would be `Umar". Yes Beautiful fabrication or maybe you believe this is how Prophets are? O_o

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Ali (as) was not just temporary deputy but he was (successor) Authentic Sunni Hadith proves that (like I posted in post #1)

Nothing proves your point, If Musa (as) would die before Harun (as) then he Harun (as) would be again his succesor

Just becouse Harun (as) died before Musa (as) does not mean that he Harun (as) was not his succesor

Musa (as) Prophet → Harun (as) Prophet his (successor)

Muhammad (pbuh) Prophet → Ali (as) Imam his (successor)

'Exception there will be no Prophet after me'

Ex Idol Worshiper ? No Prophet/Imam (asws) has been Ex Idol Worshiper Muhammed (pbuh) did not say that Uthman was to him like Harun (as) was to Musa (as) (successor)

Were did you take this from? have Prophet (pbuh) explained this like you?

I didn't ask about other occasions? Can you once answer clearly to my question?

You are only a warner, and for every nation there is the one who guides to the straight path (Quran 13:7)

Authentic Sunni Hadith proves what Shia say:

أَخْبَرَنَا أَبُو عَمْرٍو عُثْمَانُ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ السَّمَّاكِ، ثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ مَنْصُورٍ الْحَارِثِيُّ، ثَنَا حُسَيْنُ بْنُ حَسَنٍ الْأَشْقَرُ، ثَنَا مَنْصُورُ بْنُ أَبِي الْأَسْوَدِ، عَنِ الْأَعْمَشِ، عَنِ الْمِنْهَالِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو، عَنْ عَبَّادِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْأَسَدِيِّ، عَنْ عَلِيٍّ‏:‏ ‏(‏إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ‏)‏ قَالَ عَلِيٌّ‏:‏ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ- صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ وَسَلَّمَ- الْمُنْذِرُ، وَأَنَا الْهَادِي‏.‏

هَذَا حَدِيثٌ صَحِيحُ الْإِسْنَادِ وَلَمْ يُخْرِجَاهُ

Al-Mustadrak alaa al-Sahihain, Hakim al-Nishaburi, Book of the Knowing Companions, Chapter: Ali Leader of the righteous,

Narrated from Ali who said: (You - only warner, and for every nation there is the one who guides to the straight path), The Messenger of Allah is a warner, and I am the guide

-------------------------

Hakim: Hadith have authentic isnaad but Bukhari and Muslim did not include this hadith in their collections.

Úmar was Jaheel

Úmar was born from adultery

Úmar worshiped idols

Úmar was alcohol drinker

Úmar used to be with Prostitutes

Úmar made idols from dates and worshiped them

Úmar tried to kill Prophet 3 times

and more

"If there were a Prophet after me verily it would be `Umar". Yes Beautiful fabrication or maybe you believe this is how Prophets are? O_o

First of all, those points you listed about Umar are indeed false. And even if it was true about him being born out of adultery, then what does it matter? Will you blame a child for the sins of his parents? It's ridicolous that you claim Harun was Musa's successor despite you admitting that he died before Musa. How can a dead man succeed another dead man? Also if you really believe that ridicolous claim ,then why do you not accept Ismail as the successor? Just because he died doesnt mean that hes not the successor of the Jafar Sadiq, if we use your logic. Edited by Abu Muslim
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First of all, those points you listed about Umar are indeed false. And even if it was true about him being born out of adultery, then what does it matter? Will you blame a child for the sins of his parents?

No they are True - it is mentioned in Hadith and History books

he would be impure ( najis ) and [Edited Out] he is born of adultery...

It's ridicolous that you claim Harun was Musa's successor despite you admitting that he died before Musa. How can a dead man succeed another dead man?

Lets see who is ridicolous

Harun (as) was successor of Musa (as) and had succeeded him in 40 days

and after Musa (as) comes back and takes his place

Harun (as) successor of Musa (as) is still his successor

Just because he Harun (as) died before succeeding Musa (as) again one more time does not mean that he Harun (as) was not successor of Musa (as)

Also if you really believe that ridicolous claim ,then why do you not accept Ismail as the successor? Just because he died doesnt mean that hes not the successor of the Jafar Sadiq, if we use your logic.

Ismail (ra) never claimed Imamat nor was he declared as successor

Imamat is a station given by Allah

Edited by Rasul
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Úmar was Jaheel

Úmar was born from adultery

Úmar worshiped idols

Úmar was alcohol drinker

Úmar used to be with Prostitutes

Úmar made idols from dates and worshiped them

Úmar tried to kill Prophet 3 times

"If there were a Prophet after me verily it would be `Umar". Yes Beautiful fabrication or maybe you believe this is how Prophets are? O_o

and he also was kafir cuz he ran from battle field -so who ever leaves prophet becomes kafir -he dint say kalmay shahadat again ....2nd he dint give prophet pen and paper and the prophet died soon after that so now you cant even say he was forgiven... i think this was important to mention sorry if i have hurted my sunni brother's feeling but this is the truth ....

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and concept of imamat is in ur books too and coming of 12 imams after prophet ....! but you just say it was who had the kilfat was the imam ?but neva where able to prove the 12 names ? if even provided 12 names ? 1st 3 kalifas come in doubt by us shia .......2nd then next

2 la of abu sufyan la ....!muaiya n yazeeed la .... :) 100000 of doubts !!!!! then the rest .....n just cuz proving ur kalifas you call yazeed ra ...thu instead of tragic incidence of karbala and hurra ?

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Who succeeded Musa (as) after he died is a more important question. The answer for that is surely not Harun (as). Therefore, ahadith like this, simply don't prove Imamate of 12 imams.

Factually, Sunnis only question Shias about Wilayat or Imamat or Khilafat of Imam Ali a.s and their successor Imams but when they are confronted with the legality of caliphate of Abu Bakar, Umer and Usman and they are asked to bring their evidence from Quran directly. Most of them have answer that caliphate of Abu bakar is not from necessities of religion therefore, we need not bring any evidence from Quran and Sunnah. On the other hand they stress on Shia to prove Imamat of Ali a.s and other Aima a.s from Quran and Sunnah. This is only stubbornness of Sunnis while they are already playing in back foot. Because if the caliphate of Abu Bakar, Umer and Usman are not from the necessities of religion then one who rejects them should be a muslim because then these caliphates become equal to any worldly government. And you know worldly governments are not necessarily good or bad and even if they are good then it is not necessary to have faith in them. Most probably you would have been confidence that KSA has a good government then is it necessary to have faith on that government?

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history is witness because because they herd about this " who doesn't know the imam of there time dies the death of ignorant" both shia n sunni authentic hadees -----they did bayat (pledged allegiance) to the most corrupted kalifas ...) one of the guy came at ni8 for pledged allegiance because according to sunni islam if some one dies without pledged allegiance he dies death of an ignorance so its very complacery act n should be done as soon as possible ,he came at ni8 to hajaj n hajaja was sleeping ..history says hajaj say's wht have you come to do ? he says i came to pledged allegiance cuz my imam has died and now ur the imam ........................hajaj was sleeping on his bed, he removes his leg n shows him his feet n tell his do or pledged allegiance ...n he touches his feet and say yah Allah be my witness i have pledged allegiance .....!!!!!

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