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Seif

Is This Permitted Without The Father's Permission?

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Dear sisters and brothers,

I read many posts about muta but they are all about intercourse.

I have met a girl and I want to enter in a muta marriage with her, but not for sex.

As she is not mahram to me at this moment and I want to hold her hands and kiss her in halaal.

Does she need her father's permission for this? We don't want to have intercourse, but only that I can touch her in halaal.

Thank you in advance brothers and sisters.

Kind regards

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it makes no difference what you do or wether you touch her or not

if she is a minor below the age of rushd then you need permision

if she is rashida then some scholars say you need permission as a precaution , some scholars say you dont need it .

the ones who say you need it say it based on precaution and the ones who say you do not need it say it as a definite fatwa

either you folow the precaution or folow a scholar who has given an absolute fatwa but the absolute fatwa is that you do not ned the permission if she was rashida

rashiada is the girl who is able to count and manage her financial affairs

if the parents reject marriage for un islamic reasons or are of other faiths who reject our marriage system then you dont need the permimission because they are classified as " athil" and thier authority is null

uthool is rejecting the suitable for un-islamic reasons

another issue which can nulllify the need for permision according to some cholars is if she is afraid from potential sin without the marriage then she can proceed without the permission having in mind that she is rashida

salaam

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it makes no difference what you do or wether you touch her or not

if she is a minor below the age of rushd then you need permision

if she is rashida then some scholars say you need permission as a precaution , some scholars say you dont need it .

the ones who say you need it say it based on precaution and the ones who say you do not need it say it as a definite fatwa

either you folow the precaution or folow a scholar who has given an absolute fatwa but the absolute fatwa is that you do not ned the permission if she was rashida

rashiada is the girl who is able to count and manage her financial affairs

if the parents reject marriage for un islamic reasons or are of other faiths who reject our marriage system then you dont need the permimission because they are classified as " athil" and thier authority is null

uthool is rejecting the suitable for un-islamic reasons

another issue which can nulllify the need for permision according to some cholars is if she is afraid from potential sin without the marriage then she can proceed without the permission having in mind that she is rashida

salaam

Managing her financial affairs does not mean managing her pocket money or the money she earns from doing an odd job at a grocery store.

Managing her financing means she can live off of her salary, pay her bills, afford a rent if she wants to, is independent of her Wali for her day to day and long term expenses.

What Brother AliMohamad is trying to tell you is, knowing Islamic laws is very critical for following them, from stopping you from inadvertently or knowingly falling in sins, and not finding loopholes in them. And once you do it right, you come closer to Taqwa, and if you don't then you could easly be preyed upon by Ibless. Remember one of his tricks is to trivialize your sins, make things prettier than they actually are, showing you false doors to find loopholes in Islamic laws, and so on.

InshAllah your efforts will be counted towards making your level better in front of Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

Edited by Waiting for HIM

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Thank you for your reactions.

The thing is, her father is not a Muslim and she has chosen for Islam. She lives with her mother because her parents are seperated.

She is 17 years old and thus she needs the help of her mom.

As I do not want to do haram, what is the best thing for me to do?

Thank you for your time.

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There are different opinions on this. If you don't want to do haram, then use precaution (ihtiyyat) and if it is possible to get her fathers permission (even if he is not a muslim), you should try your very best to do that. If her father is supporting her financially, then the case is even stronger for getting his permission. If her father is a reasonable person and doesn't have a violent temper, then try. There is a good chance he will say yes if his daughter wants this. If you ask him and he says no, then you should ask him the reason why he is objecting.

If he says 'because your muslim' or something similar to that, then he is uthool ( I don't use that word often, but in this case it fits), meaning that his objection is based on non Islamic criteria and thus you are not obliged to seek his permission after that point. If you want to be on the safe side (and you don't fear he will harm you physically) then ask him, and if he says no ask him why he is objecting. This is better. Whether it is wajib or not I don't know. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can answer.

If the mutah will only involve kissing and holding hands and no sexual intercourse and this is stated in the aqd (contract) and agreed to by both of you then you CANNOT have sexual intercourse during the stated term of the marriage. IMO, this is very unrealistic and it may put you and her in a difficult position in which you may violate the contract, which is a big haram. Kissing leads to other things and this is a very obvious reality, especially if you and her really have strong feelings for each other. For those who are unfamiliar (I will try not to be too graphic here), intimacy progresses in a series of stages, that is how it happens and has been happening since human being were first put on this earth by Allah(s.w.a). So what you are saying is that we want to be intimate with each other without having sexual intercourse.

That is like saying I want to swim in the ocean without getting wet, and then making a contract to that effect. I guess it is possible, but very, very difficult. Be careful and realistic, that's all I'm saying.

If you are going to make it a non sexual mutah, then my advice is to also not allow any form of intimate contacts (kissing, hugging, etc). Holding hands is probably o.k.. AND make the term of the first contract short, no more than three months. That will probably be easier to stick to. Trust me, I know a little about these things and have helped to negotiated similar contracts for many brothers and sisters.

Edited by Abu Hadi

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If the mutah will only involve kissing and holding hands and no sexual intercourse and this is stated in the aqd (contract) and agreed to by both of you then you CANNOT have sexual intercourse during the stated term of the marriage.

Unless she later consents to allowing him to have sexual intercourse with her, in which case there is no problem.

[ 26449 ] 3 ـ محمد بن علي بن الحسين بإسناده عن إسحاق بن عمار ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) ، قال : قلت له : رجل تزوج بجارية عاتق على أن لا يقتضها ، ثم أذنت له بعد ذلك ، قال : إذا أذنت له فلا بأس .

3 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn by his isnad from Ishaq b. `Ammar from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I said to him: A man who married a previously unmarried girl upon that he does not consummate with her, then she gives permission to him after that. He said: When she has given permission to him then there is no harm.

http://www.tashayyu....muta/chapter-11

2432. If a woman with whom temporary marriage is contracted, makes a condition that her husband will not have sexual intercourse with her, the marriage as well as the condition imposed by her will be valid, and the husband can then derive only other pleasures from her. However, if she agrees to sexual intercourse later, her husband can have sexual intercourse with her, and this rule applies to permanent marriage as well.

http://www.sistani.o...&id=48&pid=2350

If she is a virgin, then yes, she needs the permission from her father. See fatwa from sayyid sistani that has been posted in this forum.

Sistani isn't the only marja out there. As brother alimohamad has said, Sistani, and others, only say the father's permission is required as obligatory precaution. This then allows a follower of Sistani to go to the next most knowledgeable marja until he reaches one that gives a definite fatwa. Rohani, who is arguably more knowledgeable than Sistani anyway (or at least on par), allows muta with rashida virgins without the consent of the father. Therefore the only real issue is whether or not the girl is rashida.

Edited by Haydar Husayn

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if the parents reject marriage for un islamic reasons or are of other faiths who reject our marriage system then you dont need the permimission because they are classified as " athil" and thier authority is null

what are the islamic reasons for rejecting? does it include rejecting based on wanting his daughter to stay a virgin until permanent marriage?

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what are the islamic reasons for rejecting? does it include rejecting based on wanting his daughter to stay a virgin until permanent marriage?

salaam

if the rejection is because he rejects the concept of temporary marriage then its un-islamic because its prohibiting the lawful

if the rejction is because the guy is irresponsible and big chance he will dump the girl or harm her then its an islamic rejection but i am of the openion that the father can not force her once she is rashida even if he disagreed with the marriage.

He can show his disagreement but if she wants to destroy her own future she is free as she is an adult ,,, if he forces her she will hate him and rebal and blame islam for her misery

about staying virgin until permanant there are priorities

its ideal to do so but not the way its happening today where the permanant marriage comes after 2 decades of puberty where the girl has already fallen into 1000 scandals.

in this case the priority becomes to prevent sin using any type of marriage even if its temporary

We need to study is it an islamic idea that the girl must stay virgin until permenant marriage ?

I dont know because i heard hadeeths that say its makrooh for a virgin girl to consumate muta however its not haraam so can he prohibit the lawful? ofcourse he can advice against makrooh in the situation where she is not in need of the marriage and other alterantives are availiable

The ne law which overrules all of this is if the girl is afraid of potential sin without the marriage then she should do it .

and rashiada doesnt mean how poor or rich she is, it means wether or not she is able to manage her own money otherwise in poor countries people at the age of 80 will still not be rashid because they have nothing to manage

salaam

Edited by alimohamad40

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Her father is non-muslim and it is impossible for me to ask him since Im afraid for the consequences.

She does not live with her dad but with her mother, her mother is the one who pays for the bills etc.

She is a virgin yes. But what can I do now?

Asking her father is not really an option - is this the only way for a halal muta marriage?

Selaam

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Her father is non-muslim and it is impossible for me to ask him since Im afraid for the consequences.

She does not live with her dad but with her mother, her mother is the one who pays for the bills etc.

She is a virgin yes. But what can I do now?

Asking her father is not really an option - is this the only way for a halal muta marriage?

Selaam

How much contact does she have with her dad? When she decides to get married, will she need to ask his permission? If not, then you don't need to ask him.

Anyway, according to Sistani you apparently don't need the permission of the father to do mut`a with a non-Muslim:

A non-Muslim does not have wilayat over a Muslim. From Sayyid Sistani:

مسألة 72 : يشترط في ولاية الاولياء ـ مضافاً الى العقل ـ الاِسلام إذا كان المولى عليه مسلماً فلا ولاية للاَب والجد إذا جُنّا، ولو جنّ احدهما اختصت الولاية بالآخر. وكذا لا ولاية للاَب الكافر على ولده المسلم، فتكون للجد إذا كان مسلماً، والظاهر ثبوت ولايته على ولده الكافر إذا لم يكن له جدّ مسلم وإلاّ فتكون الولاية له دونه.

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She sees her father not on a regular basis since her parents are seperated.

The girl is a muslim, her father is not. So according to Sistani this means he does not have wilayat over his daughter.

So it is permissible to enter muta with her, without asking her father?

Selaam

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She sees her father not on a regular basis since her parents are seperated.

If she was going to get married, would her father be expected to have any say in it?

The girl is a muslim, her father is not. So according to Sistani this means he does not have wilayat over his daughter.

So it is permissible to enter muta with her, without asking her father?

As I understand it, yes, that's what it means. You may want to doubt check by emailing his office though. Make sure to include what I just mentioned in the last post. They should get back to you within a few days, insha'Allah.

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Her father does not have a say in it. He will not choose or tell her to marry or not.

What difference does that make though? Thanks for your help.

Selaam

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Thanks for your help, how do we make a contract does it have to be written? And what is a minimum dowry I have to give the girl?

What are the things we both have to say to make it halal?

Selaam

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Thanks for your help, how do we make a contract does it have to be written? And what is a minimum dowry I have to give the girl?

What are the things we both have to say to make it halal?

Selaam

You don't need a written contract, just an oral one.

There are many different versions of the contract, which you can find by searching these forums. For example:

First the lady says: Zawajtuka nafsi fil muddatil ma'loomati 'alal mahril ma'loom.

Translation: "I married myself to you for the known period and the agreed upon dowry."

Then man replies:

Qabiltu.

Translation: "I accepted."*

As for the dowry, virtually anything will do, as long as you both agree on it.

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Why are you doing taqleed to ppl on this site if you already do taqleed to Sistani? if you do taqleed to him then contact his office giving all the details.

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

Do you really think a physical relationship is what a 17 year old new revert to Islam needs? Or what any girl needs regardless of her background? Unless you want to marry a 17 year old girl permanently and publicly I suggest you have some self restraint.

Edited by Zahratul_Islam

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Do you really think a physical relationship is what a 17 year old new convert to Islam needs? Or what any girl needs regardless of her background? Unless you want to marry a 17 year old girl permanently and publicly I suggest you have some self restraint.

I definitely agree.

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I have already send an email to al Sistani's office a couple of days ago, I am still waiting for an answer.

As for the girl, she is a Muslim for 9 months now, I love the girl and we want to get married as soon as we finish both our studies in 3 years. Untill then we do not want to break the contact/relationship and thus I don't see any other option then Muta.

It is not like I am a man just looking for intimacy, I have not touched her a single time in these 9 months.

Selaam

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I have already send an email to al Sistani's office a couple of days ago, I am still waiting for an answer.

As for the girl, she is a Muslim for 9 months now, I love the girl and we want to get married as soon as we finish both our studies in 3 years. Untill then we do not want to break the contact/relationship and thus I don't see any other option then Muta.

It is not like I am a man just looking for intimacy, I have not touched her a single time in these 9 months.

Selaam

You don't need to justify yourself to anyone here. She is old enough to make up her own mind, and it's nobody else's business apart from yours and hers anyway.

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

You don't have to justify yourself to me or anyone else of course, I just think you show be cautious and do what is in the best interest of this girl so that she can have a future free of stigma (societal or self inflicted) instead of just gratifying current desires for more intimacy.

Maybe put a clause in your contract which specifies that in intimacy means holding hands or hugging alone is permissible for the 3 year period? And then stick to it? :rolleyes:

Thing is, 3 years is a really long time for two 17 year olds who have no parental support and no intention of seeking it. Do you intend on telling your own parents about the arrangement or are you going to keep it to yourself for three years? Why or why not?

Just because something is technically permissible doesn't mean it is the best thing for you, and don't let some clownish mutah enthusiasts- who suggest 17 is the epitome of maturity- convince you otherwise. If it is really more about love than lust or a desire for intimacy with a girl that you have affections for then you should consider all possible implications for her emotional well being.

Edited by Zahratul_Islam

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Yes I know that, we have already told both our parents. My mother is finding it difficult because Im from Iraq and the girl is from Marocco, I already told my mother I don't like it if you don't give permission just because she has a different cultural background.

The girl told her mother aswell, her mother said that the best thing to do is to finish university first and then discuss with our parents again. My mother would like to see me with a girl from Iraq aswell, but I don't think this is something religious, I just don't know how to convince my mother to put aside these prejudices.

I know for a starter that the profphet (pbuh&hf) destroyed racism by letting his companion Bilal do adhan, and I know that our 6th imam as-sadiq as was married to a woman from north-african descent.

Do you guys have any suggestions or tips on how to convince my mother?

Selaam

Edited by Seif

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Salam,

Don't debate the issue with your mother (you will never win a debate with your parents, lol, even if your 100 % right and there 100% wrong. ). It will just create bad feelings. Just show her thru your behaviour that you love her and want to be with her and tell her how difficult it is for you that you cannot be with the one that you love. Express your emotions to her regarding the girl and this may work, eventually, (with the mother, but you might have to try a different approach with the father).

Edited by Abu Hadi

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I really don't know how to tell my father.

The thing that bothers me is that our family is revered, my mother is from the al waeli's from najaf, Ahmed al aweli was the cousin of her grandfather.

My father comes from a family who owns a lot of ground in Najaf, My mother keeps saying that she wants a good wife for me and that if I marry a girl from Marocco the community will laugh at us, but I know this girl would be a good wife and a good mother for my children.

Selaam

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Seif

Is the girl you want to do muta with is the Moroccan girl with non-Muslim parents that you wish to marry permanently in the next three years?

Give this decision some more thought. If your parents want you to marry a nice Iraqi girl, then you should not even get involved with this girl. Not only you will break her heart but you will also dishonor her reputation. And she is just 17.

Rather, if you think a relationship with this girl is for life, then you should introduce the girl to your parents. Make your parents know her and her family. Get them in touch with each other. Gain some respectability for your girl. Gain your parents approval.

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Seif

Is the girl you want to do muta with is the Moroccan girl with non-Muslim parents that you wish to marry permanently in the next three years?

Give this decision some more thought. If your parents want you to marry a nice Iraqi girl, then you should not even get involved with this girl. Not only you will break her heart but you will also dishonor her reputation. And she is just 17.

Rather, if you think a relationship with this girl is for life, then you should introduce the girl to your parents. Make your parents know her and her family. Get them in touch with each other. Gain some respectability for your girl. Gain your parents approval.

Yes it is the same girl. I really don't know what to do. On one side I really love this girl and I don't see myself with someone else.. on the other hand I want approval from my parents, if they don't give it, I have no other choice then leaving this girl.

It is just a shame because she just got to know who ahl ul bayt are and I am helping her being a follower of the school of ahl ul bayt, and I know that if I leave here she will deviate..

Selaam

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I really don't know how to tell my father.

The thing that bothers me is that our family is revered, my mother is from the al waeli's from najaf, Ahmed al aweli was the cousin of her grandfather.

My father comes from a family who owns a lot of ground in Najaf, My mother keeps saying that she wants a good wife for me and that if I marry a girl from Marocco the community will laugh at us, but I know this girl would be a good wife and a good mother for my children.

Selaam

Tell your parents that most of the mothers of the Imams (as) were non-Arab. In fact, many of them were from the same area (North Africa) as this girl you want to marry. If your family has links to scholars, then they should be the last people to be imposing unislamic criteria on who you can marry.

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Seif

If you don’t see the hope of ever gaining your parents approval, then leaving this girl now is more humane than feeding her false hopes. If you love her, then you want to be nice and treat her kindly. I suggest you tell your girl the truth about your family and the uncertain future. Then slowly try to distance yourself from her.

In the next 2-3 years, if you can convince your parents to somehow accept a Moroccan revert girl, then you can think about getting with this girl. If there is no hope, then it’s best to part away in the best manner and not commit more injustice.

Edited by Gypsy

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

1) You know your very Najafi mother will never agree to this even though it is Islamically permissible

2) You know you will likely end up listening to her in the end, even if you defy her for a few years and do mutah with this girl

You love this girl? Let her go find someone without a mother who derives worth off something as inconsequential and uncontrollable as ethnicity or name. If she truly a follower of ahlul bait she won't "deviate" just because you two didn't do mutah. Give her books, resources, and friendly assistance.. but refrain from supplying her with false hope for three years or until your mother hand picks some Najafi whose only claim to superiority come from her dead great grandfather.

Like I said before, just because something is technically permissible doesn't always mean it is the best for you or the person involved. Making loving decisions, rather than selfish ones.

Edited by Zahratul_Islam

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Let her go find someone without a mother who derives worth off something as inconsequential and uncontrollable as ethnicity or name.

Or someone with a backbone who doesn't let his mother control his life.

Honestly, it's bad enough when women get told who to marry by their parents, when at least they formally need their father's permission, but men really have no excuse.

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

Or someone with a backbone who doesn't let his mother control his life.

Honestly, it's bad enough when women get told who to marry by their parents, when at least they formally need their father's permission, but men really have no excuse.

Eye-Raki boys and their mothers ba3ad :squeez: My Iraqi brother (who is otherwise independent and has a strong personality) is going to medical school when his passion is mathematics. Care to guess why? :rolleyes:

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