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In the Name of God بسم الله

The 2 Cursed Ones Being Burned

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Zakariya bin Adam narrates:

و أخبرني أبو الحسن محمد بن هارون بن موسى قال حدثنا أبي قال أخبرني أبو جعفر محمد بن أحمد بن الوليد قال حدثنا محمد بن أحمد بن أبي عبد الله البرقي قال حدثنا زكريا بن آدم قال إني لعند الرضا إذ جي‏ء بأبي جعفر له و سنه أقل من أربع فضرب بيده إلى الأرض و رفع رأسه إلى السماء و هو يفكر فقال له الرضا بنفسي أنت لم طال فكرك فقال فيما صنع بأمي فاطمة أم و الله لأخرجنهما ثم لأحرقنهما ثم لأذرينهما ثم لأنسفهما في اليم نسفا فاستدناه و قبل ما بين عينيه ثم قال أنت لها يعني الإمامة

"Once I was with Imam Reza (as) that Aba Jafar Imam Muhammad Taqi (as) came. His (as) age was less that 4 years. He (as) struck his hands on the ground and raised his head towards the sky and thought for long."

Then Imam Reza (as) said, "By my self, What are you thinking for so long?"

Imam Taqi (as) said, "I am thinking regarding my (grand) mother Fatema (sa). By Allah سبحانه وتعالى, I want to remove those two (abu bakr and umar), burn those two and blow away their remains in the sea."

Imam Reza (as) then kissed him between his eyes (on the forehead) and said, "My father and mother be sacrificed for you. For you is the Imamate."

[source: Bihar al Anwar vol.50 pg.59 / Dalail Al Imamah Pg.212]

Note: This is a long hadees, only a part is being quoted here.

Amir Al Momineen (as) narrates that Prophet Muhammad (saww) said:

"On the night of Me'raj......"

فقال عز و جل ارفع رأسك فرفعت رأسي و إذا أنا بأنوار علي و فاطمة و الحسن و الحسين و علي بن الحسين و محمد بن علي جعفر بن محمد و موسى بن جعفر و علي بن موسى و محمد بن علي و علي بن محمد و الحسن بن علي و م‏ح‏م‏د بن الحسن القائم في وسطهم كأنه كوكب دري ‏قلت يا رب و من هؤلاء قال هؤلاء الأئمة و هذا القائم الذي يحلل حلالي و يحرم حرامي و به أنتقم من أعدائي و هو راحة لأوليائي و هو الذي يشفي قلوب شيعتك من الظالمين و الجاحدين و الكافرين فيخرج اللات و العزى طريين فيحرقهما فلفتنة الناس يومئذ بهما أشد من فتنة العجل و السامري

"Allah (swt) said, "Raise your head".

I raised my head and saw My light along with the light of Ali, Fatema, Hasan, Husain, Ali bin Husain, Muhammad bin Ali, Jafar bin Muhammad, Musa bin Jafar, Ali bin Musa, Muhammad bin Ali, Ali bin Muhammad, Hasan bin Ali, MHMD bin Hasan Al Qaim (peace be upon them all) in the center amongst them like a shining star.

I (saww) said, "O Lord, Who are these?"

Allah (swt) said, "These are the Imam's (as) and this is Al-Qaim (atfs) who will establish my halaal as halaal and my haraam as haraam. And by Him (atfs) I will take revenge from my enemies. He (atfs) is the source of rest for my friends. He (atfs) is the one who will heal the hearts of the Shia's from the oppressors, deniers and disbelievers. He (atfs) will remove 'Laat' and 'Uzza' (referring to Abu bakr and Umar) and burn both of them. The Fitna/Affliction of that day will be more severe than the fitna/affliction of calf and samarri.

[source: Kamal ud Deen (sheikh Saduq) Vol.1 Pg.253]

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/know-the-enemies/the-2-cursed-ones-being-burned

Edited by muhibb-ali
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Read child, read the whole article before jumping with excitement.

"Due to the multitude of Da'eef / Majhool / Ghullah people, this hadeeth has to be graded as MawDoo' (fabricated) or at the minimum Da'eef Jiddan."

Thats what I want here people to read and understand.....so better do not point your finger to me.....NOW JUMP!

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I never understood this. Is it true? Why can't laat and uzza just be referring to the two pagan gods..

Assalamu Alaykum, Hayakum Allah.

Because you can't really burn statues brother.

Keep me in your duas,

Hassan b. Salem al-Ilami.

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وبهذا الاسناد عن أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد، قال: حدثنا محمد ابن حمران المدائني عن علي بن أسباط، عن الحسن بن بشير، عن أبي الجارود، عن أبي جعفر (عليه السلام(

ثم يدخل المسجد فينقض الحائط حتى يضعه إلى الأرض، ثم يخرج الأزرق وزريق غضين طريين، يكلمهما فيجيبانه، فيرتاب عند ذلك المبطلون، فيقولون: يكلم الموتى؟! فيقتل منهم خمسمائة مرتاب في جوف المسجد، ثم يحرقهما بالحطب الذي جمعاه ليحرقا به عليا وفاطمة والحسن والحسين (عليهم السلام)، وذلك الحطب عندنا نتوارثه، ويهدم قصر المدينة
 
And with the same chain from Abi Abdillah Jafar bin Muhammad, from Muhammad bin Hamran al-Madaini, from Ali bin Isbaat, from al-Hasan bin Basheer, from Abi Jarood, from Abi Jafar al-Baqir (as): 

(Part of a lengthy narration, quoting only the required portion here) 

"Then He al-Qaim (atfs)], will enter the Mosque (in Madina), then He will destroy the wall until it comes down to the ground. Then he will bring out al-Azraq and Zareeq (referring to Abu Bakr & Umar) while they are fresh. He [al-Qaim (atfs)] will speak to them and they will answer Him. Then the people of falsehood will doubt this and say, “He speaks with the dead !!!” Then He will kill 500 of those who doubted in the middle of the Mosque. Then He will burn those two with the firewood that was collected to burn (the house of) Ali, Fatema, Hasan & Husain (as). And that firewood is with Us, we inherited it and He will bring down the palace of Medina …"

 
[source: Dalail al-Imamah by Muhammad bin Jareer al-Tabari, Pg. 455]
 
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وبهذا الاسناد عن أبي عبد الله جعفر بن محمد، قال: حدثنا محمد ابن حمران المدائني عن علي بن أسباط، عن الحسن بن بشير، عن أبي الجارود، عن أبي جعفر (عليه السلام(

ثم يدخل المسجد فينقض الحائط حتى يضعه إلى الأرض، ثم يخرج الأزرق وزريق غضين طريين، يكلمهما فيجيبانه، فيرتاب عند ذلك المبطلون، فيقولون: يكلم الموتى؟! فيقتل منهم خمسمائة مرتاب في جوف المسجد، ثم يحرقهما بالحطب الذي جمعاه ليحرقا به عليا وفاطمة والحسن والحسين (عليهم السلام)، وذلك الحطب عندنا نتوارثه، ويهدم قصر المدينة
 
And with the same chain from Abi Abdillah Jafar bin Muhammad, from Muhammad bin Hamran al-Madaini, from Ali bin Isbaat, from al-Hasan bin Basheer, from Abi Jarood, from Abi Jafar al-Baqir (as): 

(Part of a lengthy narration, quoting only the required portion here) 

"Then He al-Qaim (atfs)], will enter the Mosque (in Madina), then He will destroy the wall until it comes down to the ground. Then he will bring out al-Azraq and Zareeq (referring to Abu Bakr & Umar) while they are fresh. He [al-Qaim (atfs)] will speak to them and they will answer Him. Then the people of falsehood will doubt this and say, “He speaks with the dead !!!” Then He will kill 500 of those who doubted in the middle of the Mosque. Then He will burn those two with the firewood that was collected to burn (the house of) Ali, Fatema, Hasan & Husain (as). And that firewood is with Us, we inherited it and He will bring down the palace of Medina …"

 
[source: Dalail al-Imamah by Muhammad bin Jareer al-Tabari, Pg. 455]
 

 

 

 

I remember reading somewhere that this hadith is weak.

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I remember reading somewhere that this hadith is weak.

 

lool obviously dude. The grandson of Muhammad A.S, the one who brings peace will bring bloodshed? Which prophet or imam ever came for vengeance and killing? This is exact opposite to the methods of prophets in the quran. And for what? two companions whom God knows whats happening to them in their graves will come back to life so the imam kills them? what a joke

Edited by PureEthics
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Zakariya bin Adam narrates:

 

و أخبرني أبو الحسن محمد بن هارون بن موسى قال حدثنا أبي قال أخبرني أبو جعفر محمد بن أحمد بن الوليد قال حدثنا محمد بن أحمد بن أبي عبد الله البرقي قال حدثنا زكريا بن آدم قال إني لعند الرضا إذ جي‏ء بأبي جعفر له و سنه أقل من أربع فضرب بيده إلى الأرض و رفع رأسه إلى السماء و هو يفكر فقال له الرضا بنفسي أنت لم طال فكرك فقال فيما صنع بأمي فاطمة أم و الله لأخرجنهما ثم لأحرقنهما ثم لأذرينهما ثم لأنسفهما في اليم نسفا فاستدناه و قبل ما بين عينيه ثم قال أنت لها يعني الإمامة

"Once I was with Imam Reza (as) that Aba Jafar Imam Muhammad Taqi (as) came. His (as) age was less that 4 years. He (as) struck his hands on the ground and raised his head towards the sky and thought for long."

Then Imam Reza (as) said, "By my self, What are you thinking for so long?"

Imam Taqi (as) said, "I am thinking regarding my (grand) mother Fatema (sa). By Allah سبحانه وتعالى, I want to remove those two (abu bakr and umar), burn those two and blow away their remains in the sea."

Imam Reza (as) then kissed him between his eyes (on the forehead) and said, "My father and mother be sacrificed for you. For you is the Imamate."

[source: Bihar al Anwar vol.50 pg.59 / Dalail Al Imamah Pg.212]

 

You should double check the grading of this one. As far as I know, and Allah knows best, but Abu Al-Hassan Muhamed bin Haroon Bin Musa or also known as Al-Tal'akbari is Majool, as Sayed Al-Khui stated in his Mu'jam Rijal Al-Hadith. Some say that he was one of the Shuyuk of Al-Najashi, and that Al-Najashi sent blessings upon him as a way of praising him, but most seem to disagree on this.

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This is nonsense.

 

How come you say:  "Referring to Abu Bakr and Umar) - what's your proof that it is for these two?

 

'Laat' and 'Uzza' (referring to Abu bakr and Umar) and burn both of them".

 

We shias' need to use our brains - I mean, those who believe in this.

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(bismillah)

 

Ilm-e-Rijaal is not the only tool. And quite a bit of ilm-e-rijaal itself is Majhool.

 

Sorry i didn't get that " And quite a bit of ilm-e-rijaal itself is Majhool."  ?!

 

Could you tell us which part of this ilm is Majhool ?

Does part of ilm (knowledge)  become  majhool (unknown) ?

 

Means "KNOWN" becomes "UNKNOWN" ???!!!

What a joke ! :lol:

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(Bismillah)

 

This is nonsense.

 

How come you say:  "Referring to Abu Bakr and Umar) - what's your proof that it is for these two?

 

'Laat' and 'Uzza' (referring to Abu bakr and Umar) and burn both of them".

 

We shias' need to use our brains - I mean, those who believe in this.

 

Because there are multiple hadees which indicate upon this.. Here is another one with names..

 

قال: يرد إلى قبر جده صلى الله عليه وآله فيقول: يا معاشر الخلائق، هذا قبر جدي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله ؟ فيقولون: نعم يا مهدي آل محمد فيقول: ومن معه في القبر ؟ فيقولون: صاحباه وضجيعاه أبو بكر وعمر، فيقول وهو أعلم بهما والخلائق كلهم جميعا يسمعون: من أبو بكر وعمر ؟ وكيف دفنا من بين الخلق مع جدي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله، وعسى المدفون غيرهما. فيقول الناس: يا مهدي آل محمد صلى الله عليه وآله ما ههنا غيرهما إنهما دفنا معه لأنهما خليفتا رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وأبوا زوجتيه، فيقول للخلق بعد ثلاث: أخرجوهما من قبريهما، فيخرجان غضين طريين لم يتغير خلقهما

 

[source: Bihar, Vol. 53, Pg. 12]

 

 

Sorry i didn't get that " And quite a bit of ilm-e-rijaal itself is Majhool."  ?!

 

Could you tell us which part of this ilm is Majhool ?

Does part of ilm (knowledge)  become  majhool (unknown) ?

 

Means "KNOWN" becomes "UNKNOWN" ???!!!

What a joke ! :lol:

 

What i meant was that the sources for the info on the Rijal is Majhool.

 

Fee Amanillah

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(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

 

^ that ḥadīth has such an obviously weak and corrupt chain.

In it is the founder of the ghālī Nuṣayrī sect, Muḥammad b. Nuṣayr, who claimed prophethood, and was cursed by Imām al-ʿAskarī [a], and other corrupt things.

In it is another ghālī and perhaps Nuṣayrī, al-Ḥusayn b. Ḥamdān al-Khuṣaybī.

In it is another person who may have had ghālī beliefs, ʿUmar b. al-Furāt al-Kātib.

Another weakness in sanad, is that ʿAllāma al-Majlisī [r] does not mention the books from which he is quoting.

Another important weakness is that it is not reported in Uṣūl ul Kāfī of al-Kulaynī [r] or Kamāl ul Dīn of al-Ṣadūq [r] or al-Irshād of al-Mufīd [r], the three most authentic sources that discuss the Rise of al-Mahdī [a].

 

Another indication that casts doubt on the narration is that it is over 30 pages of Biḥār.

By itself, length is not a reason to reject a ḥadīth, but given the corrupt chain of transmission, a khabar al-wāḥid not found in the most authentic works, the unusual length strengthens the probability that the ḥadīth is a forgery.

 

Of course, in matters like this, one must do tawaqquf and not rely on these ḥadīth.

That ḥadīth should not be relied upon.

 

(wasalam)

Edited by Jebreil
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(bismillah)

 

The fact that there are multiple narrations with similar/same content shows their authenticity ... and this is one of the ways of authenticating narrations by looking for other narrations with similar/same content. Hence the content (matn) that all these narrations put up should be acceptable since its coming up in multiple narrations.

Edited by muhibb-ali
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(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

 

Your interpretation of those symbolic terms has not come down in multiple ḥadīth.

It appears that the sole report that gives those names is the report you mentioned in post #26, which has the irreparable problems mentioned in post #27.

 

 

(wasalam)

 

 

 

(wasalam)

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(bismillah)

 

(salam)

 

The wording of the narrations match hence I see the narration with the names supporting and complementing the other narrations on this topic .. and hence I take that interpretation from the Imam (as) [not my interpretation] that it refers to abu bakr and umar... unless some one can bring any other narration from Imam(as) indicating that it refers to some one else, and no problems yet have been raised on the content (matn) under discussion .. so all looks good... since rijal is not a final word on authenticity of any narration .. specially this case which is being supported by many narrations.

 

Also would love to see what our scholars say about these narrations.. would be great full if some more knowledgeable brother/sister can post what our scholars have said about this..

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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم
 

You should double check the grading of this one. As far as I know, and Allah knows best, but Abu Al-Hassan Muhamed bin Haroon Bin Musa or also known as Al-Tal'akbari is Majool, as Sayed Al-Khui stated in his Mu'jam Rijal Al-Hadith. Some say that he was one of the Shuyuk of Al-Najashi, and that Al-Najashi sent blessings upon him as a way of praising him, but most seem to disagree on this.

 

There is no Tawthiq for him, however, don't forget he was from the mishayikh of Al-Najashi (ar) and the mishayikh of Najashi are thiqat, and Al-Najashi gave him Tarahhum in the Tarjuma of Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Rabee'.

 

This is nonsense.

 

How come you say:  "Referring to Abu Bakr and Umar) - what's your proof that it is for these two?

 

'Laat' and 'Uzza' (referring to Abu bakr and Umar) and burn both of them".

 

We shias' need to use our brains - I mean, those who believe in this.

 

Such language is used in narrations to refer to the Shaykhayn, you will also find Taghoot and Jibt, Adawi and Taymi, Fulan and Fulan, or pluralization of the word Rajul (Rujulayn/Rajulan).

 

lool obviously dude. The grandson of Muhammad A.S, the one who brings peace will bring bloodshed? Which prophet or imam ever came for vengeance and killing? This is exact opposite to the methods of prophets in the quran. And for what? two companions whom God knows whats happening to them in their graves will come back to life so the imam kills them? what a joke

 

Where?

 

 

(salam)
(bismillah)

 

al-Radhy has an amazing article where he brings out every hadith regarding the Crucifixion of Abu Bakr and `Umar and shows the weakness in every hadith.

 

(salam)

 

Would you happen to have a link to it akhi al-kareem?

 

والسلام

Edited by Ibn Al-Ja'abi
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بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
السلام عليكم
 

 

There is no Tawthiq for him, however, don't forget he was from the mishayikh of Al-Najashi (ar) and the mishayikh of Najashi are thiqat, and Al-Najashi gave him Tarahhum in the Tarjuma of Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Rabee', and that his father was the Thiqah Jaleel Al-Qadr Mu'tamad Shaykh, Haroon ibn Musa Al-Tala'kaburi, or that Ayatullah Tabirzi, Abbas Qummi, and Ayatullah Mamqani gave his narration Sihha.

 

 

Such language is used in narrations to refer to the Shaykhayn, you will also find Taghoot and Jibt, Adawi and Taymi, Fulan and Fulan, or pluralization of the word Rajul (Rujulayn/Rajulan).

 

 

Where?

 

 

والسلام

 

 

Brother who is the most vile person Allah has ever shown as an example in the holy quran? Far worse than Abu bakr, Mawiya, and even yazid. None other than the pharaoh. He was a mass murder and every single negative connotation you can think of. Did Allah command Musa A.S to "go and take your stick and destroy him, devour him, burn him, curse at him! Beat him with the stick!" ? No brother. This is what Allah commanded Musa A.S:

 

[Yusufali 20:43] "Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has indeed transgressed all bounds;

[Yusufali 20:44] "But speak to him mildly; perchance he may take warning or fear (Allah)."

 

SubhanAllah. Look at the attitude and justice of the representatives of Allah. Allah tells Musa to speak to him with gentle and kind words, perchance he may change his path to goodness. Wow! Amazing. This is what we should learn from the quran, the true attitude and aqlaq of our prophets and imams. Not that they are going to come and devour and break bone by bone the evil doers or those that reject them. Or that they will come back to life just to take the evil beings from their graves and to re-punish them even though they will be punished for eternity. Or the imam is going to come with the sword and chop heads off, no... IT goes against the morality and ethics of theirs. What does Allah tell Muhammad A.S? It makes no sense what so ever. The point is Allah, prophets, and imams are not vengeful. This is not justice, justice is already due. It not only goes against the quran but against the sunnah of Muhammad A.S and the imams are his reflectors:

 

"And most certainly you (Muhammad A.S) are on sublime morality (exalted standard of character).”(Qur’an, al-Qalam 68:4)

 

(wasalam)

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Muhibb, 

 

If you follow your approach of accepting hadiths like this, then the religion would look very different from the established one. I think you just pick and choose what you want to believe, then find some weak hadith, or ahad naration and then claim this is the evidence for your belief. Islam does not work this way, guessing / thann is not acceptable.

 

The reality of the religion is the opposite, we take what has been passed to us in a reliable, tawatir manner, and accept that. I hope you understand this and correct yourself.

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