The Ages Of Aisha And Lady Fatima (as) At Marriage

[Haydar Husayn]

9 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

I only care for what the Imams and prophet have said and done. 

Also, I'm not sure if you read my previous posts. I do not disagree that marrying a girl who has reached puberty is permitted under specific regulations. Eating pork is permitted, too, under certain circumstances. 

The main part of the discussion is whether the prophet committed such act. And clearly there are not any acceptable ahadeeth from our infallibles confirming that he did. 

Why would there be any reason to doubt something that is historically credible, that the Imams never contradicted, and that is allowed in Islam? Did the Imams impose any conditions in marriage that you feel this story would contradict?

The problem with asking for ahadith from the Imams about this is that there would be no reason for them to comment on it unless there was an issue. Why would someone ask them about Aisha's age, when it is only recently that anyone thought this was a problem at all? On the other hand, if it was genuinely a slander against the Prophet, then they could have raised it themselves with their followers.

[SoRoUsH]

53 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Why would there be any reason to doubt something that is historically credible, that the Imams never contradicted, and that is allowed in Islam? Did the Imams impose any conditions in marriage that you feel this story would contradict?

The problem with asking for ahadith from the Imams about this is that there would be no reason for them to comment on it unless there was an issue. Why would someone ask them about Aisha's age, when it is only recently that anyone thought this was a problem at all? On the other hand, if it was genuinely a slander against the Prophet, then they could have raised it themselves with their followers.

Historical credibility when it comes to issues of virtues and morality isn't sufficient.

Let me ask you this. 

We have 12 infallible Imams (as). They've each had many wives. Can you name any of their wives that were, indisputably, as young as nine years old? And of course acceptable textual evidence would be very helpful. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by SoRoUsH

[John_313]

1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Why would they be silent about something so serious?

And can one of you please get round to addressing the problem of the Shia narrations that say a girl becomes a baligh at 9? You keep avoiding this issue for some reason.

It doesn't matter when a girl becomes baligh, this still doesn't mean the prophet married with Aisha when 9 years old, the sunni narration says that "the hit hurt her (Aisha)"... Why were the imams silent? If the Imams were silent that doesn't necessarily mean they approved it, they didn't agree unles they said they did.

[John_313]

On 4/18/2017 at 8:36 PM, Qa'im said:

1. It's a little strange that a "Shaykh al-Habib fan" would quote a Sunni website for a fiqh discussion, especially a website that has content against Shi`as.

2. It is true that young children cannot have sex, but `A'isha hit puberty and was an adult according to shari`a. She did not consummate her marriage until she hit puberty. I suggest you read the chapters on marriage in Wasa'il ash-Shi`a, the hadiths are clear that a woman consummating a marriage at 10 is totally valid.

`A'isha did not claim to have consummated her marriage at 6. The reports from her say 9 and 10, and no one claimed a different age.

As for Sayyida Fatima, her age depends on when the mi`raj took place, which means she could have been 12, or she could have been 9.

And many women do start getting menses at 10.

It's sahih according to `Allamah al-Majlisi, and I thought you guys didn't care about sihha anyway. Anyway, I agree that Isma`il b. Ja`far's words are not hujja, but (1) it is a reference outside of `A'isha. If marrying at 10 is shameful, why would Isma`il report it? (2) The report was accepted by Shaykh al-Kulayni into his book, showing that he had no problem with it. (3) Her age corroborates many hadiths that say a woman can consummate a marriage at 9 or 10. (4) The Imams did not reject this age of `A'isha, even though they defended many claims against the Prophet.

We can't be 100% certain about minute details of history, and so it is plausible that `A'isha was older, but it is unlikely. The arguments that make her older are motivated entirely by modern notions of what is "appropriate". The marriage of a pubescent woman at 10 was entirely normal until very very recently, and in some parts of the West, the marriage age is still 12.

1 It doesn't matter what the website is about, the topic described through the Quran is what i wanted to show you, I didn't want to get out of topic (I'm ex-sunni, sorry if that looked strange)...

2 Even if Aisha did hit the puberty at the age of 10, this still doesn't prove she married the prophet at 10 years old...

Marrying 10 doesn't have to necessarily be shameful, we are stating that there's no prove the prophet married Aisha at that age.

I am very conservative, the question  is not what's likely to happen but rather what happened?

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

La ilahe ilallah wa Muhammadan rasulullah wa Aliyan waliullah Ya Ali

[Qa'im]

2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

I do not disagree that marrying a girl who has reached puberty is permitted under specific regulations. Eating pork is permitted, too, under certain circumstances. 

This is such a bad analogy, you're taking something haraam and comparing it to something that may be mustahab. Pork is only permissible when survival is at stake, because the principle of self-preservation outweighs our dietary laws. Marrying at 10 is not haraam at all, the age is valid under any circumstances, and marrying early is good. The only thing that would make that marriage invalid is if her guardian disagrees, or if there is no agreed mahr, etc. but these factors are not related to age.

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

We have 12 infallible Imams (as). They've each had many wives. Can you name any of their wives that were, indisputably, as young as nine years old? And of course acceptable textual evidence would be very helpful. 

Assuming Sayyida Fatima was 12 and not 9 when she married, what's the difference between a 10 year old and 12 year old in your mind? In fiqh, if they have both reached bulugh, the two cases are identical. Why are they so different that one would be abhorrent and the other would not be worth talking about?

30 minutes ago, SheikhAlHabib'fan said:

1 It doesn't matter what the website is about, the topic described through the Quran is what i wanted to show you, I didn't want to get out of topic (I'm ex-sunni, sorry if that looked strange)...

These verses in the Quran confirm what I have said. None of these verses say that it is haram to consummate a marriage with a woman who has reached maturity (bulugh). The hadiths I have linked earlier confirm this view.

[SoRoUsH]

55 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

This is such a bad analogy, you're taking something haraam and comparing it to something that may be mustahab. Pork is only permissible when survival is at stake, because the principle of self-preservation outweighs our dietary laws. Marrying at 10 is not haraam at all, the age is valid under any circumstances, and marrying early is good. The only thing that would make that marriage invalid is if her guardian disagrees, or if there is no agreed mahr, etc. but these factors are not related to age.

Legal permissibly doesn't make an action, good. The prophet or Imams doing an action, makes it good, because they only do what is best."Beating" your wife may be legally permissible, but it is not good. Do we have any example of our infallibles, in our books, beating their wives? 

I can spend $1000 to buy large bags of seeds to feed birds, or I could donate that money to feed starving people. The former is permissible. But most people I assume would agree that it is not a good deed, when there are better ways to spend that money. 

In simple words, one action can be legally permissible. However, the status of that same action can change between makrooh and mustahab, depending on the sayings and actions of our infallibles. It may be legally permitted to marry nine-year old children, but if none of our infallibles did so, when it was apparently normal and totally fine to do so, then through their actions, they're teaching us something. They could, but they chose not to.

55 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Assuming Sayyida Fatima was 12 and not 9 when she married

Assuming? Any solid supporting evidence either way? 

Edited April 19, 2017 by SoRoUsH

[Haydar Husayn]

2 hours ago, SheikhAlHabib'fan said:

1 It doesn't matter what the website is about, the topic described through the Quran is what i wanted to show you, I didn't want to get out of topic (I'm ex-sunni, sorry if that looked strange)...

2 Even if Aisha did hit the puberty at the age of 10, this still doesn't prove she married the prophet at 10 years old...

Marrying 10 doesn't have to necessarily be shameful, we are stating that there's no prove the prophet married Aisha at that age.

I am very conservative, the question  is not what's likely to happen but rather what happened?

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

La ilahe ilallah wa Muhammadan rasulullah wa Aliyan waliullah Ya Ali

There is a hell of lot more proof for her being 9 or 10 than there is for any other age, so I'm not sure how exactly you can say there is no proof. Because if the criteria for something in history having happened is having a statement back to an Imam with a Sahih chain, then there are whole host of events that Shias hold dear for which there is 'no proof'.

[Haydar Husayn]

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

Legal permissibly doesn't make an action, good. The prophet or Imams doing an action, makes it good, because they only do what is best."Beating" your wife may be legally permissible, but it is not good. Do we have any example of our infallibles, in our books, beating their wives? 

If you were presented with such an example wouldn't you just reject if for the same reasons you are rejecting these other narrations? What difference does it make if the statement is in 'our books' or not?

[SoRoUsH]

20 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

If you were presented with such an example wouldn't you just reject if for the same reasons you are rejecting these other narrations? What difference does it make if the statement is in 'our books' or not?

As it has already been established, there are zero acceptable ahadeeth from our infallibles on this issue. 

I'd reject any tradition that is neither saheeh nor hassan nor mawthaq, and when it comes to issues of theology and fiqh, I only care for what the prophet and the Imams have said and done. 

[Qa'im]

2 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Assuming? Any solid supporting evidence either way? 

I think this is a very good exercise - please find a sahih/hasan/muwathaq chain about Sayyida Fatima's birth, and we will continue from there. I have seen many traditions that say that her birth was announced at the mi`raj, so if you can find an authentic daleel on the year that the mi`raj took place, we could try to gauge when she was born. Then, find me an authentic daleel on what year she married Amir al-Mu'mineen - I believe it was sometime after Badr.

On a side note, I doubt there is even a sahih Imami daleel on the year Imam al-Husayn was killed, let alone on the age of `A'isha.

[SoRoUsH]

15 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

I think this is a very good exercise - please find a sahih/hasan/muwathaq chain about Sayyida Fatima's birth, and we will continue from there. I have seen many traditions that say that her birth was announced at the mi`raj, so if you can find an authentic daleel on the year that the mi`raj took place, we could try to gauge when she was born. Then, find me an authentic daleel on what year she married Amir al-Mu'mineen - I believe it was sometime after Badr.

On a side note, I doubt there is even a sahih Imami daleel on the year Imam al-Husayn was killed, let alone on the age of `A'isha.

I'll look into it; however, don't hold your breath while I do so, since it may take a while.

I do know that in Vol. 8 of Al-Kafi there's a weak hadith that states she was married to Imam Ali (as) when she was nine. 

[Qa'im]

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

I do know that in Vol. 8 of Al-Kafi there's a weak hadith that states she was married to Imam Ali (as) when she was nine. 

I think you are referring to this chain:

محمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى

ابن محبوب، عن هشام بن سالم، عن أبي حمزة عن سعيد بن المسيب قال:

I am assuming you are considering Sa`eed b. Musayyib majhool?

I will just illustrate something to the readers: everybody in the chain is unanimously considered reliable and trustworthy up to the primary narrator, Sa`eed b. Musayyib. The chain includes several top brass Shi`i narrators (asHab al-ijma`), including Ibn Mahbub, Hisham b. Salim, and Abu Hamza al-Thumali. Some believe that a chain that is authentic up to one of these individuals is reliable, regardless of who they narrate from. Here we have three.

So who is Sa`eed b. Musayyib? He was one of the biggest scholarly authorities among the tabi`een, and he met many sahaba. In Shafi`i and Maliki fiqh, his narrations are taken even if they are mursal. Sa`eed b. Musayyib also narrates in our books, and according to a report in al-Kashi, he was one of the five people who recognized Imam `Ali b. al-Husayn (as) at the beginning of his Imamate:

روى الكشي في رجاله ص 76 عن الفضل بن شاذان أنه لم يكن في زمن علي بن الحسين عليهما السلام في أول أمره إلا خمسة أنفس: سعيد بن جبير، سعيد ابن المسيب، محمد بن جبير بن مطعم، يحيى بن أم طويل، أبو خالد الكابلي واسمه وردان ولقبه كنكر.

And al-Kashi reported in his rijal, page 76 that al-Fadl b. Shadhan said: At the time of `Ali b. al-Husayn عليهما السلام, at the beginning of his affair, only five individuals were with him: Sa`eed b. Jubayr, Sa`eed b. al-Musayyib, Muhammad b. Jubayr b. Mut`im, Yahya b. Umm Taweel, and Abu Khalid al-Kabuli whose name was Wardan and whose laqab was Kankar.

Nonetheless, he is being considered majhool because there is a lack of explicit praise for him.

So do you think Sa`eed b. Musayyib is lying/wrong about the age of Sayyida Fatima? And on top of that, this lie would pass through three close students of several Imams, who were known investigate everything they narrated, and were some of the biggest scholars of Shiism? Then, end up in Shaykh al-Kulayni's book, which is the most authoritative hadith text we have? All because Najashi and Shaykh al-Tusi etc. didn't document explicit praise for him? If he truly was a companion of the early Imams and sahaba, and he said that Sayyida Fatima was 9 when he married, then his words are pretty authoritative, especially if they have been transmitted by three asHab al-ijma`.

Minute details of history are not like math and chemistry. In math, everything is black and white, right or wrong, accepted or rejected. History (including hadith) is a soft science. It is more abstract than concrete. Not everything with a sahih isnad is necessarily 100% true and not everything with a weak isnad is necessarily 100% false. Sometimes we must rely on the data that we have to conclude what is likely and what is unlikely. In the case of the age of Sayyida Fatima, we need to collect all of the data on her age, see what is most convincing, and go with it. Otherwise, we'll keep going in circles, because ancient birthdates and deathdates are rarely 100% certain. Till now there is some ikhtilaf on the birthdates of some Imams. Sometimes we just have to gauge the truth based on the facts available to us.

This, by the way applies to much of our history. You won't find much on Khadija bint Khuwaylid in our books, for example, and even less that survives through sahih asaneed. But, her biography is known and repeated, and unless there is something that contradicts our ethics, there is no harm in accepting her biography, and it is unlikely that neutral details of her life was entirely made up by the sahaba and tabi`een.

The same applies for the age of Sayyida Fatima. If she was 9 at marriage, or 12 (according to Shaykh al-Mufid's Masar ash-Shi`a), this detail is fine and morally inconspicuous.

[SoRoUsH]

Brother Qa'im, 

This is what brother Nader Zaveri says about that narrator: 

Sa`eed b. al-Mussayib is not thiqah (trustworthy), rather he is majhool (unknown). al-Khoei has a very lengthy discussion about him in his Mu`jam Rijaal al-Hadeeth, here is the summary:

1. All hadeeth in praise of him are Da`eef

2. The saying of al-Fadl b. Shaadhaan does not imply tawtheeq, also the authentic hadeeth in Qurb al-Isnaad does not imply tawtheeq, just that he was a Shee`ah.

3. All hadeeth in condemnation of him are Da`eef

4. al-Mufeed says he was a naasibi, but the book he mentions it in (Kitaab al-Arkaan), we do not have a connected chain of how we have received this book (via al-Majlisi, Hurr al-`Aamili and Muhaddith al-Nooree)

5. Malik says he was a khaariji, al-Khoei says this is not hujjah, plus that statement is mursal

After this lengthy discussion he says that it is correct to do tawaqquf (desist) on Sa`eed b. al-Mussayib, thus making his condition indiscernible, meaning majhool (unknown).

فتلخص مما ذكرناه أن الصحيح هو التوقف في أمر الرجل لعدم تمامية سند المدح و القدح.

So in conclusion, from what we have mention, it is correct to do tawaqquf about the man's (Sa`eed b. al-Mussayib) affairs, due to the incompleteness of sanad of the praise and the wounded (weakening).

Source:

al-Khoei, Mu`jam Rijaal al-Hadeeth, vol. 8, pg. 139

Muhib al-Deen al-Musawi al-Hilli weakens this hadeeth because of Sa`eed b. al-Musayyib in his al-Mu`tabar min Ahaadeeth al-Kaafi, final chapter "the non mu`tabar hadeeth"

So, should we accept al-Khoei's take? 

Edited April 20, 2017 by SoRoUsH

[Ibn Al-Ja'abi]

On 4/18/2017 at 11:59 PM, SoRoUsH said:

The burden of proof doesn't change. When it comes to birth/death dates of narrators, issues of theology and fiqh aren't usually involved. If they are involved, then believing Sunni sources becomes objectionable. 

As for the original topic, you agree that we don't have clear ahadeeth from the infallibles to indicate, with certainty, age of Aisha at the time of marriage.

This is very important for people to know and realize. What they choose to believe and do with this information is up to them and between them and God.  

This is not how you study history. This is bad historiography, you cannot construct historical narratives with just Rijal analyses. You don't want to accept certain facts because of modernist influences, and that's fine. I can sympathize with things not sitting comfortably with you, some things don't sit comfortably with me. But stop doing bad history to solve your issues. It's been 11 years.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Ibn Al-Ja'abi

[SoRoUsH]

Question:

Since marriage with nine year old girls is permitted, so must Mutah be, as long as the father/guardian permits it. However, once the nine year old girl is not a virgin anymore, does she still require her father's permission to engage in Mutah? And technically, a nine year old girl may have many temporary marriages while she's nine, with different men decades older than her. Right? 

So far everything fits within the boundary of permitted deeds. Right? 

And since it's legally permitted, then no one should be appalled by it, or see anything wrong with it. Correct? 

Edited April 20, 2017 by SoRoUsH

[Mohammadi_follower]

So finally how old were Fatima Zahra (as) and Ayesha during the consumption of the marriage ?

[John_313]

6 hours ago, alidu78 said:

So finally how old were Fatima Zahra (as) and Ayesha during the consumption of the marriage ?

There was no Sahih Hadith which proved that Aisha was 9 or 10, this all what I can say

[Ibn Al-Shahid]

I just want to add something quite important. Regardless of age, criticism seems to come from western culture that the Prophet (صل الله عليه واله وسلم) was a pedophile (استغفر الله). If this is true, then out of all these young women, why did he pick someone who was reported to have been hit with measles (or a similar disease) to the point the she looked horrifying? Surely, if the Prophet was out for lust he could have had any woman, why then did he pick someone that was aesthetically unpleasant?

Edit:

[jaguar_knight]

On 19/04/2017 at 9:05 PM, Qa'im said:

This is such a bad analogy, you're taking something haraam and comparing it to something that may be mustahab. Pork is only permissible when survival is at stake, because the principle of self-preservation outweighs our dietary laws. Marrying at 10 is not haraam at all, the age is valid under any circumstances, and marrying early is good. The only thing that would make that marriage invalid is if her guardian disagrees, or if there is no agreed mahr, etc. but these factors are not related to age.

Assuming Sayyida Fatima was 12 and not 9 when she married, what's the difference between a 10 year old and 12 year old in your mind? In fiqh, if they have both reached bulugh, the two cases are identical. Why are they so different that one would be abhorrent and the other would not be worth talking about?

These verses in the Quran confirm what I have said. None of these verses say that it is haram to consummate a marriage with a woman who has reached maturity (bulugh). The hadiths I have linked earlier confirm this view.

One could turn around and say that it was not necessary for The Prophet (p) to marry Aisha when she was 9 or 10. It was not a matter of life or death for him to do so. The Prophet (p) already had other wives. The only reason to do so would be in order to make abu bakr happy and keep him as an ally. That being said, look at how many people have rejected Islam just because of this apparent scandal against the Prophet (p) marrying aisha. If an alliance with abu bakr was so important marrying his daughter could have waited until she was older. Perhaps that is actually what happened, i.e. The Prophet (p) offered to marry aisha and declared to do that when she was 9, but agreed to officially marry when she was older? And then over the course of history (most probably after the age of the 12 imams (s)) the story got misinterpreted. All in the name of forming an alliance. Again this all depends on narration authenticity.

I am ashamed to say these things about our beloved Ahlul Bayt (so astaghfirAllah)... but islamophobic groups could easily say the same thing about Imam Ali (s) and marrying Lady Fatima (s) and The Prophet (p) didn't mind that about his daughter because he just had no morals.

The haters will be prepared to say anything so to be perfectly honest this comparison with Lady Fatima (s) is not a strong enough rebuttal. Unfortunately I do not know anything about the age of Lady Fatima (s) when she got married, other than what has been said on this thread.

[Qa'im]

On 4/23/2017 at 8:45 PM, jaguar_knight said:

One could turn around and say that it was not necessary for The Prophet (p) to marry Aisha when she was 9 or 10. It was not a matter of life or death for him to do so. The Prophet (p) already had other wives. The only reason to do so would be in order to make abu bakr happy and keep him as an ally. That being said, look at how many people have rejected Islam just because of this apparent scandal against the Prophet (p) marrying aisha. If an alliance with abu bakr was so important marrying his daughter could have waited until she was older. Perhaps that is actually what happened, i.e. The Prophet (p) offered to marry aisha and declared to do that when she was 9, but agreed to officially marry when she was older? And then over the course of history (most probably after the age of the 12 imams (s)) the story got misinterpreted. All in the name of forming an alliance. Again this all depends on narration authenticity.

I am ashamed to say these things about our beloved Ahlul Bayt (so astaghfirAllah)... but islamophobic groups could easily say the same thing about Imam Ali (s) and marrying Lady Fatima (s) and The Prophet (p) didn't mind that about his daughter because he just had no morals.

The haters will be prepared to say anything so to be perfectly honest this comparison with Lady Fatima (s) is not a strong enough rebuttal. Unfortunately I do not know anything about the age of Lady Fatima (s) when she got married, other than what has been said on this thread.

I'm not particularly interested in peddling this topic, but the Prophet's marriage of `A'isha is only an issue if we make it into one. If we come to the topic assuming that such an action is shameful or immoral, then of course we will look for ways to make `A'isha older. But if we come at it neutrally and openly, then there would be no issue with the marriage whatsoever. It wasn't a life-death decision to marry `A'isha at 10, but who says it should be? Yes the Prophet could have waited, but why would he if what he did was moral? As of yet, there is no strong reason to assume that she was older - the main motivation for that argument is the Western 20th century notion that 10 is "too young".

The gist of my argument is:

1. `A'isha was considered 9-10 by Kulayni, Bukhari, Tabari, Ibn Hajar, and Dhahabi. All reports say that she was menstruating before consummating her marriage, and that she and her parents consented to the marriage, and that it was a public affair. 10 is a normal age for women to hit puberty.

2. Revisions of `A'isha's age only came after 20th century criticisms by Western historians and colonialism/imperialism. Nobody even criticized this well-known marriage until 1905 and after.

3. Arguments that make `A'isha older are fallacious. I'm not saying that we are certain about her age, but based on the data we have, there is no valid reason to assume that she was older.

4. The Imams of Ahl al-Bayt have said that marrying at 9 is valid. Some reports even encourage marrying a woman by the time she menstruates. Of course, this is not obligatory, and marrying later is absolutely fine and in some ways better, but it is not immoral or shameful to marry young.

5. Modern secular notions of "marriageable age" and "consent" are highly subjective. Every state or province or country has different laws on what is the "right" age, and these laws are based entirely on the mood and culture of their population. In some countries, the marriage age for women is still very young. Islam says, a person is an adult once they hit puberty. As a society, we can decide if we'd like to marry later, but we cannot say it is haram or unethical to marry after puberty. We cannot superimpose modern secular ethics onto our reading of Islamic ethics or history. What we today consider "too old" or "too young" is not relevant at all.

6. The Imams did not consider marriage at 9-10 to be makrooh, haram, undesirable or shameful in any way.

7. While it is true that the Imams did not say `A'isha was 9-10, they did not deny it, even though this was the dominant view in their time. If this was considered scandalous, then the Imams would've likely addressed it.

8. The idea that `A'isha lied about her age to make the Prophet look bad assumes that `A'isha had the foresight to see 1,300 ahead of her time, because marrying at 9-10 was not controversial at her time.

9. According to the data we have on Sayyida Fatima, she also married sometime between 9 and 12. This was also a consented, public affair that has not been challenged or revised.

So in conclusion, this is an issue where you'll just have to take it or leave it alone. If you'd like to assume that she was older for your own personal security, then that's fine, there is no harm in that. But, that conclusion is not based on anything except personal feelings.

[jaguar_knight]

Excuse me... but our objective here is to defend the honour of our Prophet (p), regardless of who is correct. So with all due respect brother Qa'im it is in bad taste for you to say to me that I am responding to your argument based on my own personal security and to satisfy my personal feelings. So just a gentle reminder that we are actually on the same side.

This is the reason why I keep away from shiachat for long periods of time, because these debates just keep going around in circles just for the sake of it.

Granted, you do make a good argument, so I am not outright rejecting it. BUT the claims that aisha was older shouldn't be dismissed completely and neither should the justifications for it.

At the risk of "peddling" this discussion along further. There are two points that need to be considered:

1. If the law for legal age of consent was removed all around the world now. Would you all be ok with your daughters, nieces etc. to marry at the age of 9 or 10?

2. If this has become unacceptable only from the beginning of the 20th century, then why did it become unacceptable? What changed in society? And before anyone says it's because women started working and going to school in the past century, I don't buy that because they can still easily marry and do these things at the same time regardless of age.

[Learner2526]

Aisha (ra) was 16-25 at the time of marriage not 6. I am disgusted that people in this forum justify false attacks on the prophet.

http://hameem.org/index.php/multimedia/articles/89-articles/149-proof-that-aisha-was-over-15-years-old-when-she-married-the-prophet-peace-be-upon-him

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/sep/17/muhammad-aisha-truth

http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm

 

[Qa'im]

On 4/25/2017 at 1:30 PM, jaguar_knight said:

Excuse me... but our objective here is to defend the honour of our Prophet (p), regardless of who is correct. So with all due respect brother Qa'im it is in bad taste for you to say to me that I am responding to your argument based on my own personal security and to satisfy my personal feelings. So just a gentle reminder that we are actually on the same side.

This is the reason why I keep away from shiachat for long periods of time, because these debates just keep going around in circles just for the sake of it.

Granted, you do make a good argument, so I am not outright rejecting it. BUT the claims that aisha was older shouldn't be dismissed completely and neither should the justifications for it.

At the risk of "peddling" this discussion along further. There are two points that need to be considered:

1. If the law for legal age of consent was removed all around the world now. Would you all be ok with your daughters, nieces etc. to marry at the age of 9 or 10?

2. If this has become unacceptable only from the beginning of the 20th century, then why did it become unacceptable? What changed in society? And before anyone says it's because women started working and going to school in the past century, I don't buy that because they can still easily marry and do these things at the same time regardless of age.

I'm just trying to address the counter arguments and they're not strong. If I am presented with a valid historical argument that makes `A'isha older, I will take it, because it would make da`wa easier. However, religion is about truth and honesty, not scoring points. If we can't be objective about this issue, then we would look duped in our discussions with those who do honest research. Those who feel hurt by such historiographical discussions should not be having them.

To answer your questions: In principle yes, it would be morally sound. If the Prophet and the Imams appear to have done this, and have explicitly taught that this was fine, and the scholars agree on this issue, then it is a perfectly moral and ethical thing to do according to Islamic epistemology. Still, these questions are not historical arguments, and even if I said "no", that would just be a personal opinion that ultimately would not prove anything about ethics or history.

Of course, marriage is not just based on morality, but on convenience and compatibility. The change in the age of consent is one variable out of many variables that have raised modern marriage ages. Other variables include:

• Colonization, imperialism and Westernization: Anglo-Saxon culture has historically had much higher marriage ages than the rest of the world, and even higher than the rest of Europe.
• Birth control in the 1950s brought the risk of relationships down significantly. Early marriage protected people from accidental pregnancies and casual relationships. Now, the risk in having a relationship is significantly smaller due to advanced birth control methods.
• Adolescence: the concept of adolescence came after the Industrial Revolution in Europe. Adolescence is the idea of extended childhood, where one is not yet an adult, but can do some things that adults do (work, drive, get into relationships, etc.) without all of the responsibilities. Adolescents are not tried under the law as adults. This has brought about a teenage "culture" where different things are expected from teenagers than from adults. This did not exist historically - people in most societies gained the full rights and responsibilities of adults shortly after puberty. The notion that one is "still a kid" at 17 or even 20 is very recent.
• Urbanization: people in agricultural societies till this day get married earlier than people in urban societies. There are a range of sociological reasons for this that you can research. The marriage age for women is still 12 in some parts of the Western world, and in Iran it is 13. More people live in cities now than anytime in history.
• Economic changes: in capitalist societies, women are encouraged to finish schooling, get a degree, build a career, pay their debts, and become consumers in the free market. Most households now need two breadwinners, as a man's work is not as valuable as it used to be. So this has created a culture where women are expected to only marry after they have achieved economic independence, so they could support their family and not be a liability.
• The standards of marriage itself have changed. Marriage in Islamic law can be very simple: an oral contract, a small dower, and a guardian's permission (if applicable). Nowadays, even in Muslim cultures, an engagement, dower, wedding, and honeymoon can cost an upwards of $100,000 in total. Add a mortgage on top of that with skyrocketing urban housing prices.
• Marriage today is more about compatibility and romance, marriage historically had tribal and economic alliances, and were less motivated by the kind of stuff we see in Hollywood, Disney, Bollywood, the music industry, soap operas, sitcoms, etc. Tastes and beauty standards are also quite fluid.
• People today still get into relationships very young. My school friends started getting into relationships at 11, and I hear nowadays it is getting younger. Girlfriend/boyfriend relationships have replaced marriage for many people.

Among other reasons. Again though, the "what would you do today" argument is not a sound argument for `A'isha's age, because it does not appropriately deal with historiography or ethics, and it is largely subjective and irrelevant. So please present your sources for her age, or present evidence that marrying at 10 is not allowed in Islam. Without one or both of these things, there can't be a persuasive argument.

[Qa'im]

On 4/27/2017 at 9:56 PM, Learner2526 said:

Aisha (ra) was 16-25 at the time of marriage not 6. I am disgusted that people in this forum justify false attacks on the prophet.

Did you watch the lecture you posted? Sayyid Nakshawani refutes most of the arguments that make `A'isha older - including the Surat al-Qamar argument, the Uhud argument, and the Tabari argument. He says that the only argument that is "plausible" is Ibn Kathir's reference, which I dealt with in this thread. The articles you posted hinge on these four arguments. The rest of the lecture, he defends the possibility that she was 9-10.

[Islandsandmirrors]

My great grandparents were 10 and 15 when they got married.

My grandparents from my dad's side were 15 and 17-ish, while my grandma from my mom's side was 23.

it was considered the norm back in the day to get married young. 

Edited May 2, 2017 by Islandsandmirrors

[guest051217]

On 03/05/2017 at 0:16 AM, Islandsandmirrors said:

My great grandparents were 10 and 15 when they got married.

My grandparents from my dad's side were 15 and 17-ish, while my grandma from my mom's side was 23.

it was considered the norm back in the day to get married young. 

My grandma married at 13, to my grandpa who was in his 20's at least.

[ZethaPonderer]

When discussing the Age of Aisha it is important to see the Muhammad marrying Aisha at 9 years old Hadith and find out its origin story.

 

Apparently I stumbled upon this interesting article that debunks Aisha’s canonical age being a myth,

 

http://justonereason.net/debunking-the-aisha-child-marriage-myth/

 

Most notably about the particular Hadith in Sahih Bukhari that discusses Aisha’s age with her marriage of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) the origin of that Hadith comes from an Islamic Scholar named Hisham Ibne Urwa.

 

Apparently Hisham had faulty memory when forging the Hadith. If this is true, then the Hadith of Aisha’s Canonical Age being married to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) at 9 years old is unreliable since it comes from an old man suffering from memory loss.

 

I encourage all of my brothers and sisters in faith/equal to study the life and history of Hisham ibne Urwa since he seems like key to understand the authenticity of the Aisha Age Hadiths.

[Ashvazdanghe]

12 hours ago, ZethaPonderer said:

 

http://justonereason.net/debunking-the-aisha-child-marriage-myth/

 

Most notably about the particular Hadith in Sahih Bukhari that discusses Aisha’s age with her marriage of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) the origin of that Hadith comes from an Islamic Scholar named Hisham Ibne Urwa.

Salam it is many times debated by Shia Scholars on Shia channel & sites by Wahabist channels but they blindly spread this myth & make a bad Image for Muslims.

[andres]

On 2012-04-25 at 3:03 AM, Khadim uz Zahra said:

 Many a Muslims are shocked when they hear of the narrations regarding her age (there are, of course, differing accounts but I am talking about the accounts which age her fairly her young, at around 6 when the marriage took place and 9 at the time of consummation). Many non-Muslims try to raise this as an issue to malign the Prophet (pbuh) as immoral and a man who is controlled by carnal desires - I am not even going to mention the names they call him because of how lowly they are.

 

Queen over Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Iceland and Greenlane, Magaret I, in 1363 married. She was 10 years old. This was not somethin unusual in Europe. It was rather normal. Today we are horrified by such customs, but one cannot judge Margarets parents or Muhammed by todays moral standards.

[Ashvazdanghe]

1 hour ago, andres said:

Queen over Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Iceland and Greenlane, Magaret I, in 1363 married. She was 10 years old. This was not somethin unusual in Europe. It was rather normal. Today we are horrified by such customs, but one cannot judge Margarets parents or Muhammed by todays moral standards.

It’s true but these type of people see everything action from prophet Mohammad (pbu)  a bad deed ,they have extremist religion beliefs these people if become Muslim are prone to absorb to Wahhabism Doctrine too.

[andres]

3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It’s true but these type of people see everything action from prophet Mohammad (pbu)  a bad deed ,they have extremist religion beliefs these people if become Muslim are prone to absorb to Wahhabism Doctrine too.

As Muslims believe Muhammed to be the last messenger of God, most Christians believe Jesus is. The inevitable conclusion is that everybody after Jesus/Muhammed is a false prophet. Unfortunately many Christians focus on things like Islamic terror and opression of women, forgetting that in Christian history we also find a lot this. However there are also many Christians and secular historians that even if they do not believe the Quran is the perfect word of God, realises that Muhammed was a great personality that made improvement to Arab society, (like reducing the number of wives to 4, if we connect to the title of this thread!). He was the beginning of the great Arab culture and science in a period when the Christian world had stagnated., ruled by an almighty Church.

[ZethaPonderer]

4 hours ago, andres said:

As Muslims believe Muhammed to be the last messenger of God, most Christians believe Jesus is. The inevitable conclusion is that everybody after Jesus/Muhammed is a false prophet. Unfortunately many Christians focus on things like Islamic terror and opression of women, forgetting that in Christian history we also find a lot this. However there are also many Christians and secular historians that even if they do not believe the Quran is the perfect word of God, realises that Muhammed was a great personality that made improvement to Arab society, (like reducing the number of wives to 4, if we connect to the title of this thread!). He was the beginning of the great Arab culture and science in a period when the Christian world had stagnated., ruled by an almighty Church.

Well I'm not gonna lie that this is an insightful comment. From your first statement, you're technically correct if we focus it under Tribalism Perspective. Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) was the Last Prophet of Bani Israel (Children of Israel) according to most Christians, but not necessarily the Last Prophet of The God of Abraham (Ellah/Allah) according to Muslims. After all Prophet Ishmael/Ismail (AS) was key just as much as Prophet Isaac (AS) to spread the Word of The God of Abraham.

 

The argument that many Christians along with some Atheists/Agnostics who were born in a Judeo-Christian background (AKA Judeo-Christian Apostates) come up in the West is that both Judaism and Christianity have reformed while Islam has remained the same. That and most Christians and Jews don't really follow their own scriptures word for word as The Law in Western Societies.

 

Still your point is touching.

 

Back to @Ashvazdanghe, correct me if I'm misunderstanding your reply, but if Hisham ibne Urwa's memory problems holds true when he was making these Hadiths about Aisha, then he might've known Aisha's true age. At some point he might've mis-remembered her age or mistaken it for Bibi Fatima Zehra (AS)'s age when forging the Hadiths. Yes, I'm speculating here, but there is a serious plot hole here that needs to be filled.

 

Most sources indicate that Fatima (AS) was unlike any other woman during her time period. She is considered a Masumeen (Infallible) under Shia Islam based on the 14 Masumeens Tradition. She was like a mirror image of Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS)'s mother Mary/Mariam (AS). She married Imam Ali ibne Abi Talib (AS) when she reached puberty at a very young age (9-11 years old according to most sources while some sources suggest she was 19).

Edited March 8, 2018 by ZethaPonderer
adding the word 'come up' after (AKA Judeo-Christian Apostates)

[andres]

10 hours ago, ZethaPonderer said:

Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS) was the Last Prophet of Bani Israel (Children of Israel) according to most Christians, but not necessarily the Last Prophet of The God of Abraham (Ellah/Allah) according to Muslims. 

 

The argument that many Christians along with some Atheists/Agnostics who were born in a Judeo-Christian background (AKA Judeo-Christian Apostates) come up in the West is that both Judaism and Christianity have reformed while Islam has remained the same. 

Most Christians believe Jesus is the last messenger of God. Mormons dont, they have a 19th century prophet and their leaders speak with Jesus personally.( I am not certain they are Christians.)

Not only Judaism and Christianity has changed. Islam too. Today we have Sunnies, Shias and many more. All developed from the teachings of one person.  

[gajarkahalva]

Question still stands for the other 10 imams. Any of them marry anyone around 10 years old? We know they had multiple wives so.......?

[Abu Hassanain]

salam

Sayyida Fatimah Zahra Sirallah as can not be compared to other people they are a different level of creation from nur us from clay, Imam Sadiq as says our flesh is like your ruh. 

with that said She as was married at 10, had her childern at 11 12 14 16, and was martyred at 18.

Aeisha was 28, not a virgin, her husband had been killed at badr by Imam Ali as, and some invegistations indicate she may have been Abu Bakr sister not duaghter. I have looked over a book that was translated from urdu to english on the topic with a senior cleric in north america 

wallahu alam