The Ages Of Aisha And Lady Fatima (as) At Marriage

[Sumerian]

7 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Why isn't there? I mean why would someone marry a 1 year old girl. Can you please give me one scenario 

I don't know. All I am saying is this is what the ulama say.

[Hassan-]

@MohammadAli1993 read this below by Dr Sheikh Mansour Leghaei.

1. Women have traditionally married at younger ages than men, although the average age of marriage has increased for both sexes with time.

2. If Prophet’s marriage to a 9 year old girl is pedophilia then the history of western countries has recorded a lot of pedophilic relations. Margaret Beaufort (mother of Henry VII of England) was married to John de la Pole at the age of 7 in 1450. Likewise, Anne de Mowbray, 8th Countess of Norfolk, was married to Richard of Shrewsbury, the first Duke of York at the age of 6 in 1477. Also, Margarethe of Austria; the daughter of Emperor Maximilian I, was not even 3 years old when she became the fiancée of the French Crown prince Charles! And the list goes on.

3. Historically girls were married at a much younger age than nowadays. Such marriages were more proxy marriages and the girl would be betrothed with the consent of her father.

4. As for the age of Aisha – the wife of the holy Prophet Muhammad (s) – at the time of her marriage, unlike the common mistake, she was most likely around 17 years of age for the following reasons:

a. Historians asserted that her older sister ‘Asma’ was 10 years older than her (Ibn Katheer, vol.8 p.345). Asma was born 25 years before the migration of the holy Prophet (s). That means her younger sister in the year of the Prophet’s migration was 15 years old.

b. Bukhari (vol. 3, pl. 3606) quoted from Aisha that she was engaged to the holy Prophet (s) 3 years after the demise of his first wife ‘Khadija’, which is the first year of his migration, when Aisha was 15 years old. The holy Prophet (s) married Aisha two years later when Aisha would be 17 years of age.

[MohammadAli1993]

23 hours ago, Hassan- said:

@MohammadAli1993 read this below by Dr Sheikh Mansour Leghaei.

1. Women have traditionally married at younger ages than men, although the average age of marriage has increased for both sexes with time.

2. If Prophet’s marriage to a 9 year old girl is pedophilia then the history of western countries has recorded a lot of pedophilic relations. Margaret Beaufort (mother of Henry VII of England) was married to John de la Pole at the age of 7 in 1450. Likewise, Anne de Mowbray, 8th Countess of Norfolk, was married to Richard of Shrewsbury, the first Duke of York at the age of 6 in 1477. Also, Margarethe of Austria; the daughter of Emperor Maximilian I, was not even 3 years old when she became the fiancée of the French Crown prince Charles! And the list goes on.

3. Historically girls were married at a much younger age than nowadays. Such marriages were more proxy marriages and the girl would be betrothed with the consent of her father.

4. As for the age of Aisha – the wife of the holy Prophet Muhammad (s) – at the time of her marriage, unlike the common mistake, she was most likely around 17 years of age for the following reasons:

a. Historians asserted that her older sister ‘Asma’ was 10 years older than her (Ibn Katheer, vol.8 p.345). Asma was born 25 years before the migration of the holy Prophet (s). That means her younger sister in the year of the Prophet’s migration was 15 years old.

b. Bukhari (vol. 3, pl. 3606) quoted from Aisha that she was engaged to the holy Prophet (s) 3 years after the demise of his first wife ‘Khadija’, which is the first year of his migration, when Aisha was 15 years old. The holy Prophet (s) married Aisha two years later when Aisha would be 17 years of age.

Well this makes more sense now 

[MohammadAli1993]

On 4/13/2017 at 11:00 PM, Haydar Husayn said:

Why are you finding it so hard to answer the question? It's hard to take seriously someone who objects to one particular age, but can't say what age would have been acceptable.

Any age of consent is completely arbitrary, as long as a woman is physically capable. Obviously I believe that was the case for Aisha, or else the Prophet wouldn't have done it.

Alright lets say that the Prophet did marry aisha at that age but why doing *** with her at a very very young age?

Like come on

Do you really believe that the Blessed Prophet of Islam needed to perform such an act. Was aisha asking for it?

Or did the Prophet feel like it?

And why would people narrate Aishas and the Prophets bed time? Thats strange................

[Haydar Husayn]

57 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Alright lets say that the Prophet did marry aisha at that age but why doing *** with her at a very very young age?

Like come on

Do you really believe that the Blessed Prophet of Islam needed to perform such an act. Was aisha asking for it?

Or did the Prophet feel like it?

And why would people narrate Aishas and the Prophets bed time? Thats strange................

I'm happy to answer all your questions when you answer mine. You still haven't told me what the minimum age should be, or why the Imams didn't refute this alleged lie against the Prophet (s), or why they said that a girl becomes a woman at 9.

[jaguar_knight]

On ‎13‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 9:23 AM, Ali_Hussain said:

The issue is that certain well loved scholars such as Yassir al-Habib and Hasan Allahyari have come out and tried to refute the notion that A'isha was 9, so their followers will never accept other opinions. I had a discussion with one of them who gave me the link to a video assuring me that there was only the opinion of Shi'a scholars and Shi'a narrations used, and of course, there was not a single one, and half the video was exposing A'isha's crimes. When I questioned the reasons for the second half of the video, I was accused of defending her.

These people don't understand the implications of claiming that what A'isha claims is pedophilia, or else they do and just don't care, their hate for her is stronger than their love for him.

I'm not a fan of Yassir al-Habib, but I believe what he is trying to point out is that this is one big scandal against the Prophet (p) by Aisha and most likely propagated by bani umayya. There are narrations available saying that Aisha was in fact in her late teens when the Prophet married her. It comes as no surprise to me that Aisha would start up this scandal against the Prophet (p).

[Ali_Hussain]

20 hours ago, jaguar_knight said:

I'm not a fan of Yassir al-Habib, but I believe what he is trying to point out is that this is one big scandal against the Prophet (p) by Aisha and most likely propagated by bani umayya. There are narrations available saying that Aisha was in fact in her late teens when the Prophet married her. It comes as no surprise to me that Aisha would start up this scandal against the Prophet (p).

I think that the point that brother Qa'im was making is that this was never a scandal up until the modern era, so that argument isn't valid, unless you believe that she has such extreme foresight that she could see western society changing the way that it did, and that western culture would come to dominate the world and so their standards would be applied to her marriage and it would discredit the Prophet...I dunno, it seems a tad farfetched.

[Qa'im]

I don't buy that argument, because it assumes that `A'isha lied about her age to cast a negative image on the Prophet. The problem there is that her hadith would not be taken negatively by anyone for nearly 1,300 years. You won't find a single accusation of "pedophilia" before 1905, because marrying after puberty was very normal until quite recently. Again, Lady Fatima got married at around the same age as `A'isha, so would Shaykh Yasir's argument apply to her too? The only person who would accept this argument is one who already has a problem with the age of `A'isha, which is purely a modern problem.

[iraqi_shia]

On 4/6/2017 at 11:59 PM, MohammadAli1993 said:

Do u know that the body isn't ready for sex once it hits puberty? The body is preparing its to get ready for sex and that takes years and years. Look into it brother. I can't believe human in this day and age believe that one can enter a young girl aged 10*.  Personally, I would feel disturbed 

Your feeling of being disturbed doesnt change facts.

The reality is that times were different. For example in Europe around the same era (850), Judith of Flanders married the Kind of Wessex. She was 13 at the time of marriage, it was seen as normal.

There are countless examples even dating to more modern times, in the 1400's, Isabella of Valois became the queen on England at age 6 by marriage.

 

[John_313]

21 hours ago, Qa'im said:

I don't buy that argument, because it assumes that `A'isha lied about her age to cast a negative image on the Prophet. The problem there is that her hadith would not be taken negatively by anyone for nearly 1,300 years. You won't find a single accusation of "pedophilia" before 1905, because marrying after puberty was very normal until quite recently. Again, Lady Fatima got married at around the same age as `A'isha, so would Shaykh Yasir's argument apply to her too? The only person who would accept this argument is one who already has a problem with the age of `A'isha, which is purely a modern problem.

We shouldn't marry till puberty in the Quran, use this website http://www.answering-islam.com/minimum_age_for_marriage.htm

Fatima s.a was married when about 12 years old, twice as old as Aisha claimed in sahih Bukhari 6... The age of Fatima s.a is also known as an age when women reach puberty (avarage of girls become 13-14).

Shias believe that what sunnis claim but imams don't, can't be true. The Hadith you gave wasn't sahih, and it is not the words of imams but Ismail ibn Jafar.

The argument you made about the question "why didn't anyone complain about this Hadith for 1300 years" still doesn't prove anything. Many sunni scholars consider that Hadith not Sahih, how do you know nobody complained, if not then it is like saying "why didn't anyone complain about death penalty", because that was their belief which they followed blindly...

[Haydar Husayn]

2 hours ago, SheikhAlHabib'fan said:

We shouldn't marry till puberty in the Quran, use this website http://www.answering-islam.com/minimum_age_for_marriage.htm

Fatima s.a was married when about 12 years old, twice as old as Aisha claimed in sahih Bukhari 6... The age of Fatima s.a is also known as an age when women reach puberty (avarage of girls become 13-14).

Shias believe that what sunnis claim but imams don't, can't be true. The Hadith you gave wasn't sahih, and it is not the words of imams but Ismail ibn Jafar.

The argument you made about the question "why didn't anyone complain about this Hadith for 1300 years" still doesn't prove anything. Many sunni scholars consider that Hadith not Sahih, how do you know nobody complained, if not then it is like saying "why didn't anyone complain about death penalty", because that was their belief which they followed blindly...

Why didn't the Imams say anything about this then, if it was such a slander against the Prophet? And why do we find so many narrations mentioning that a girl becomes baligh at 9? Yasser al-Habib's marja, Sayyid Shirazi, along with many other scholars, says that a girl becomes baligh at 9, and can be married even before that. So from a fiqh perspective even today, it's not clear that he could have a problem with it.

"Shias believe that what sunnis claim but imams don't, can't be true."

Are you sure you don't want to reword this? Because as it stands, it's absurd, and you wouldn't be able to consistently apply this.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Haydar Husayn

[Sumerian]

2 hours ago, SheikhAlHabib'fan said:

We shouldn't marry till puberty in the Quran, use this website http://www.answering-islam.com/minimum_age_for_marriage.htm

Fatima s.a was married when about 12 years old, twice as old as Aisha claimed in sahih Bukhari 6... The age of Fatima s.a is also known as an age when women reach puberty (avarage of girls become 13-14).

Shias believe that what sunnis claim but imams don't, can't be true. The Hadith you gave wasn't sahih, and it is not the words of imams but Ismail ibn Jafar.

The argument you made about the question "why didn't anyone complain about this Hadith for 1300 years" still doesn't prove anything. Many sunni scholars consider that Hadith not Sahih, how do you know nobody complained, if not then it is like saying "why didn't anyone complain about death penalty", because that was their belief which they followed blindly...

Perhaps you don't know, but in Shi'a Fiqh there is no age for marriage. You haven't read a risala from the top marjas?

[John_313]

15 minutes ago, E.L King said:

Perhaps you don't know, but in Shi'a Fiqh there is no age for marriage. You haven't read a risala from the top marjas?

I thinks you answered Haydar Husayn's argument, he is saying Ayatollah Sayyid Sadiq al-Shirazi allows being married before 9 years old...

Or maybe you don't consider Shirazi as a top marja? Why this contradiction?

https://www.al-islam.org/religion-al-islam-and-marriage/age-marriage

34 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Why didn't the Imams say anything about this then, if it was such a slander against the Prophet? And why do we find so many narrations mentioning that a girl becomes baligh at 9? Yasser al-Habib's marja, Sayyid Shirazi, along with many other scholars, says that a girl becomes baligh at 9, and can be married even before that. So from a fiqh perspective even today, it's not clear that he could have a problem with it.

"Shias believe that what sunnis claim but imams don't, can't be true."

Are you sure you don't want to reword this? Because as it stands, it's absurd, and you wouldn't be able to consistently apply this.

"Shias believe that what sunnis claim but imams don't, can't be true"- don't you get it? If sunnis say to praise Muawiya but imams don't, then who's statement would you follow? I said don't take sunnis as a an argument on shia understanding of Aisha's marriage...

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

La ilahe ilallah wa Muhammadan rasulullah wa Aliyan waliullah Ya Ali

[Haydar Husayn]

11 minutes ago, SheikhAlHabib'fan said:

I thinks you answered Haydar Husayn's argument, he is saying Ayatollah Sayyid Sadiq al-Shirazi allows being married before 9 years old...

Or maybe you don't consider Shirazi as a top marja? Why this contradiction?

https://www.al-islam.org/religion-al-islam-and-marriage/age-marriage

"Shias believe that what sunnis claim but imams don't, can't be true"- don't you get it? If sunnis say to praise Muawiya but imams don't, then who's statement would you follow? I said don't take sunnis as a an argument on shia understanding of Aisha's marriage...

Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

La ilahe ilallah wa Muhammadan rasulullah wa Aliyan waliullah Ya Ali

So just to be clear, if there is anything in Sunni books that the Imams were silent on, then you reject it?

[Qa'im]

2 hours ago, SheikhAlHabib'fan said:

We shouldn't marry till puberty in the Quran, use this website http://www.answering-islam.com/minimum_age_for_marriage.htm

1. It's a little strange that a "Shaykh al-Habib fan" would quote a Sunni website for a fiqh discussion, especially a website that has content against Shi`as.

2. It is true that young children cannot have sex, but `A'isha hit puberty and was an adult according to shari`a. She did not consummate her marriage until she hit puberty. I suggest you read the chapters on marriage in Wasa'il ash-Shi`a, the hadiths are clear that a woman consummating a marriage at 10 is totally valid.

2 hours ago, SheikhAlHabib'fan said:

Fatima s.a was married when about 12 years old, twice as old as Aisha claimed in sahih Bukhari 6... The age of Fatima s.a is also known as an age when women reach puberty (avarage of girls become 13-14).

`A'isha did not claim to have consummated her marriage at 6. The reports from her say 9 and 10, and no one claimed a different age.

As for Sayyida Fatima, her age depends on when the mi`raj took place, which means she could have been 12, or she could have been 9.

And many women do start getting menses at 10.

2 hours ago, SheikhAlHabib'fan said:

Shias believe that what sunnis claim but imams don't, can't be true. The Hadith you gave wasn't sahih, and it is not the words of imams but Ismail ibn Jafar.

It's sahih according to `Allamah al-Majlisi, and I thought you guys didn't care about sihha anyway. Anyway, I agree that Isma`il b. Ja`far's words are not hujja, but (1) it is a reference outside of `A'isha. If marrying at 10 is shameful, why would Isma`il report it? (2) The report was accepted by Shaykh al-Kulayni into his book, showing that he had no problem with it. (3) Her age corroborates many hadiths that say a woman can consummate a marriage at 9 or 10. (4) The Imams did not reject this age of `A'isha, even though they defended many claims against the Prophet.

We can't be 100% certain about minute details of history, and so it is plausible that `A'isha was older, but it is unlikely. The arguments that make her older are motivated entirely by modern notions of what is "appropriate". The marriage of a pubescent woman at 10 was entirely normal until very very recently, and in some parts of the West, the marriage age is still 12.

[Sumerian]

Quote

I thinks you answered Haydar Husayn's argument, he is saying Ayatollah Sayyid Sadiq al-Shirazi allows being married before 9 years old...

Or maybe you don't consider Shirazi as a top marja? Why this contradiction?

https://www.al-islam.org/religion-al-islam-and-marriage/age-marriage

@SheikhAlHabib'fan

 

Who told you he doesn't? Every marja I have seen allows it, where does Sayyed Sadiq Al-Shirazi say it is not allowed?

Edited April 18, 2017 by E.L King

[Hassan-]

4 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

`A'isha did not claim to have consummated her marriage at 6. The reports from her say 9 and 10, and no one claimed a different age.

Salam. What are your thoughts on what Shiekh Mansour Leghaei said below?

Quote

 

4. As for the age of Aisha – the wife of the holy Prophet Muhammad (s) – at the time of her marriage, unlike the common mistake, she was most likely around 17 years of age for the following reasons:

a. Historians asserted that her older sister ‘Asma’ was 10 years older than her (Ibn Katheer, vol.8 p.345). Asma was born 25 years before the migration of the holy Prophet (s). That means her younger sister in the year of the Prophet’s migration was 15 years old.

b. Bukhari (vol. 3, pl. 3606) quoted from Aisha that she was engaged to the holy Prophet (s) 3 years after the demise of his first wife ‘Khadija’, which is the first year of his migration, when Aisha was 15 years old. The holy Prophet (s) married Aisha two years later when Aisha would be 17 years of age.

 

 

[Qa'im]

14 minutes ago, Hassan- said:

Salam. What are your thoughts on what Shiekh Mansour Leghaei said below?

Ibn Kathir's account of Asma's age comes from Ibn Abi Zinad's two reports, which are considered weak, one of which says "ten or so years" ( بعشر سنين أو نحوها ), and is not an exact number. Dhahabi says that Asma' was more than ten years older, and he cites an estimate of 19 years. Ibn Hajar says Asma' was born 27 years before hijra, and died in 74 AH, making her 101 years old. This data is in accordance with `A'isha's account.

[SoRoUsH]

On 5/7/2012 at 2:50 PM, Qa'im said:

The following hadith is in al-Kafi, and it is saheeh:

إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص دَخَلَ بِعَائِشَةَ وَ هِيَ بِنْتُ عَشْرِ سِنِينَ وَ لَيْسَ يُدْخَلُ بِالْجَارِيَةِ حَتَّى تَكُونَ امْرَأَةً

The Prophet (pbuh) had consummated with `A'isha when she was 10 years old. And one does not have intercourse with a young girl until she becomes a woman (hits puberty).

...

Salam, 

I have researched this topic before. 

There are zero acceptable (sahih/hassan/mawthaq) hadith that confirm Aisha was nine/ten at the age of marriage. 

The hadith that you cited is not sahih. It doesn't connect to an Imam (as). 

There are significant issues/problems, if we accept that the prophet (pbuh) married a nine-year old girl. 

Most people keep contextualizing the marriage. Yet, outside of this discussion, and due to many traditions, many people realize that prophet sunna are eternal. Why the inconsistency? 

Is marrying a nine-year old today an abhorrent act? If you say yes, then try to see if there's another action of the prophet that you can think of as abhorrent today. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by SoRoUsH

[Qa'im]

14 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Salam, 

Did you read the whole thread?

[SoRoUsH]

43 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Did you read the whole thread?

I only read your posts, and my concern remains.

There are two issues at play: 

1) Ancient traditions and marrying young girls 

2) Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) marrying a nine-year old girl

Nobody cares if Abdullah bin Abdullah, a random man, married a nine year old girl 1000 years ago. No body cares if most men married ten year old girls in the history. Why? Because they were not our role models. They did not establish sunna for us to follow. We did not look up to them and examine their every single action. 

So, this contextualizing argument is irrelevant at best and dangerous at worst. 

When and how do we determine which of the prophet's actions to contextualize and which to consider an eternal teaching/sunna?

It doesn't matter that until the 20th century, nobody raised a concern. One could say it was normal to beat women until recently, so it was normal for the prophet to hit Aisha hard in the chest, to cause her pain (Refer to Sunni hadiths on this.) "It was OK for the prophet to do so then, but it's not OK to do so now." We have a hard time accepting that he really did so. And if we can find zero traditions in our own books to verify or confirm that he did Aisha hard in the chest, we would most likely reject that it ever took place.

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by SoRoUsH

[Qa'im]

Well if our ethical framework is based on the teachings of Ahl al-Bayt, then we cannot deem something that they allowed or encouraged to be "abhorrent". Our criterion is the Quran and the Sunna. So, even if the Prophet (pbuh) married `A'isha around the age of 10, which history seems to indicate, there would be no problem with it according to our criterion.

As for your question, "would marrying a 9 year old be an abhorrent act today" - if all of the Islamic requirements for the marriage are fulfilled, then absolutely not. What is your shar`i reason for suggesting it would be abhorrent? The simple question is, is this legal or not?

Page 101, chapter 45: http://alsafwh.net/library/vblibrary/alwasael/wasael-20/v05.html

[SoRoUsH]

42 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Well if our ethical framework is based on the teachings of Ahl al-Bayt, then we cannot deem something that they allowed or encouraged to be "abhorrent". Our criterion is the Quran and the Sunna. So, even if the Prophet (pbuh) married `A'isha around the age of 10, which history seems to indicate, there would be no problem with it according to our criterion.

As for your question, "would marrying a 9 year old be an abhorrent act today" - if all of the Islamic requirements for the marriage are fulfilled, then absolutely not. What is your shar`i reason for suggesting it would be abhorrent? The simple question is, is this legal or not?

Page 101, chapter 45: http://alsafwh.net/library/vblibrary/alwasael/wasael-20/v05.html

I agree that it is legal. However, it being legal and it being an action that a prophet committed are two different issues, as stated above. 

Considering that there are makrooh and mubah deeds, there may be many deeds that are legal but the prophet would not go near it. Something being legal doesn't make it "good." On the other hand, if the prophet does it, then it becomes good, simply because the prophet did it.

We could say eating pork in specific circumstances is legal, too, but that doesn't imply that eating pork is "good" or even OK, generally. Only under specific circumstances it is permitted. 

I do not have any Shar'i reason. However, any physiological and psychological studies that I have read on this topic, strongly suggest that such deed will have long-term negative effects. So, the principle of harm must be employed in this case. 

Edited April 18, 2017 by SoRoUsH

[Qa'im]

35 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

I agree that it is legal. However, it being legal and it being an action that a prophet committed are two different issues, as stated above. 

Considering that there are makrooh and mubah deeds, there may be many deeds that are legal but the prophet would not go near it. Something being legal doesn't make it "good." On the other hand, if the prophet does it, then it becomes good, simply because the prophet did it.

We could say eating pork in specific circumstances is legal, too, but that doesn't imply that eating pork is "good" or even OK, generally. Only under specific circumstances it is permitted. 

I do not have any Shar'i reason. However, any physiological and psychological studies that I have read on this topic, strongly suggest that such deed will have long-term negative effects. So, the principle of harm must be employed in this case. 

Even if we found evidence in the shari`a that say marrying at 10 is makrooh, a ma`sum can still do it. However, in this case, marrying a woman just after puberty is mubah, maybe even mustahab if you accept hadiths like من سعادة الرجل أن لا تحيض ابنته في بيته . But I know you enjoy rijal, and I've only seen two non-sahih chains to this one. Though the popularity of hadiths like this and the hadiths I linked earlier can all be taken as qara'in that this was normal and not viewed negatively in any way, but rather was viewed positively.

Even if we accepted that there were some negative affects to marrying young, I can make an argument that getting married altogether has many negative affects - including women dying during labour, which was very common in pre-modern times. I can list many pros of marrying after puberty. But we don't weigh our ethics using a list of pros and cons, we weigh them with the Quran and Sunna.

The evidence that `A'isha was older just isn't there. We can argue all day about what the Prophet could or should have done, but I think I have sufficiently demonstrated that any arguments against `A'isha's age are very tenuous.

[SoRoUsH]

1 hour ago, Qa'im said:

Even if we found evidence in the shari`a that say marrying at 10 is makrooh, a ma`sum can still do it. However, in this case, marrying a woman just after puberty is mubah, maybe even mustahab if you accept hadiths like من سعادة الرجل أن لا تحيض ابنته في بيته . But I know you enjoy rijal, and I've only seen two non-sahih chains to this one. Though the popularity of hadiths like this and the hadiths I linked earlier can all be taken as qara'in that this was normal and not viewed negatively in any way, but rather was viewed positively.

I, personally, do not put much weigh on how something was viewed, if it is not clearly recommended or advised against by the infallibles. There are many socio-economic factors that make certain things be viewed positively or negatively. In simpler words, when it comes to ethics and virtues, I try to adhere to a robust framework. (And I don't mean that I don't make mistakes or behave beyond this framework.)

1 hour ago, Qa'im said:

But we don't weigh our ethics using a list of pros and cons, we weigh them with the Quran and Sunna.

Right, and this is precisely why it's important to care more about what the infallibles actually did and recommended, than what the people of an era viewed as positive/negative.

Whether something was OK doesn't make it a Sunna. Whether something was popular doesn't make it a Quranic teaching. 

This is why it's very important to be diligent when it comes to determining what the prophet actually did and what he didn't. 

1 hour ago, Qa'im said:

The evidence that `A'isha was older just isn't there. We can argue all day about what the Prophet could or should have done, but I think I have sufficiently demonstrated that any arguments against `A'isha's age are very tenuous.

A strong evidence, in our books, that Aisha was a young bride isn't there either. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by SoRoUsH

[SoRoUsH]

1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

In simpler words, when it comes to ethics and virtues, I try to adhere to a robust framework. (And I don't mean that I don't make mistakes or behave beyond this framework.)

This is precisely why ilm ul-rijal is very important to me. I need to know only what our infallibles have said and done. 

[Qa'im]

Not all of history survives through a sahih isnad, and not all sahih isnads lead to historical certainty. It is true that there are no reports from the Imams on the age of `A'isha. In a way, that supports my point, because it shows that her age is of no real concern. As long as she consummated her marriage after a certain age, in our fiqh, it is absolutely acceptable - and you accept this.

Now, there should be no doubt that `A'isha claimed to have consummated her marriage at 9 or 10, and according to the data we have on the matter, she probably was telling the truth. So far I have found no reason to doubt this. I have stated already that it is plausible that she was older, but the evidence, from Bukhari to Ibn Hajar to Dhahabi, claims otherwise. And yes, it is common for Shi`a historians to borrow specific data like this from Sunnis - rijalis do it all the time. The report in al-Kafi furthermore shows that the Shi`a were under the impression that she was 10, and no counter narrative on her age even existed until the 20th century Sunni revisionists. And, their arguments tend to be quite flimsy, and are founded on the idea that marrying a 10 year old is "abhorrent", when that is nothing but a modernist bias.

It's weird how the burden of proof suddenly jumps on this specific issue. Do you rely on Sunni birth/death dates for rijal?

[SoRoUsH]

The burden of proof doesn't change. When it comes to birth/death dates of narrators, issues of theology and fiqh aren't usually involved. If they are involved, then believing Sunni sources becomes objectionable. 

As for the original topic, you agree that we don't have clear ahadeeth from the infallibles to indicate, with certainty, age of Aisha at the time of marriage.

This is very important for people to know and realize. What they choose to believe and do with this information is up to them and between them and God.  

Edited April 19, 2017 by SoRoUsH

[John_313]

Because then we have the Quran...

Ashuddah in Arabic is derived from the root word shadeed, which means mighty and powerful.  Allah Almighty referred to iron as shadeed (having mighty power) in Noble Verse 57:25.  Let us look at what Allah Almighty Said regarding children reaching their full strength and growth:

Noble Verse(s) 22:5

Yusuf Ali: [022:005]  O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs). Arabic (from right to left): ‏22:5 ياايها الناس ان كنتم في ريب من البعث فانا خلقناكم من تراب ثم من نطفة ثم من علقة ثم من مضغة مخلقة وغير مخلقة لنبين لكم ونقر في الارحام مانشاء الى اجل مسمى ثم نخرجكم طفلا ثم لتبلغوا اشدكم ومنكم من يتوفى ومنكم من يرد الى ارذل العمر لكيلا يعلم من بعد علم شيئا وترى الارض هامدة فاذا انزلنا عليهاالماء اهتزت وربت وانبتت من كل زوج بهيج

   

Noble Verse(s) 40:67

Yusuf Ali: [040:067]  It is He Who has created you from dust then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot; then does he get you out (into the light) as a child: then lets you (grow and) reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before;- and lets you reach a Term appointed; in order that ye may learn wisdom. Arabic (from right to left): ‏40:67 هو الذي خلقكم من تراب ثم من نطفة ثم من علقة ثم يخرجكم طفلاثم لتبلغوا اشدكم ثم لتكونوا شيوخا ومنكم من يتوفى من قبل ولتبلغوا اجلا مسمى ولعلكم تعقلون

   

Noble Verse(s) 6:152

Yusuf Ali: [006:152]  And come not nigh to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he attain the age of full strength; give measure and weight with (full) justice;- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear;- whenever ye speak, speak justly, even if a near relative is concerned; and fulfil the covenant of God: thus doth He command you, that ye may remember. Arabic (from right to left): ‏6:152 ولاتقربوا مال اليتيم الا بالتي هي احسن حتى يبلغ اشده واوفوا الكيل والميزان بالقسط لانكلف نفسا الا وسعها واذا قلتم فاعدلوا ولو كان ذاقربى وبعهد الله اوفوا ذلكم وصاكم به لعلكم تذكرون

   

Noble Verse(s) 17:34

Yusuf Ali: [017:034]  Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength; and fulfil (every) engagement, for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).  Arabic (from right to left): ‏17:34 ولاتقربوا مال اليتيم الا بالتي هي احسن حتى يبلغ اشده واوفوا بالعهد ان العهد كان مسؤولا

   

Noble Verse(s) 46:15

Yusuf Ali: [046:015]  We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents: In pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth. The carrying of the (child) to his weaning is (a period of) thirty months. At length, when he reaches the age of full strength and attains forty years, he says, "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for Thy favour which Thou has bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness such as Thou mayest approve; and be gracious to me in my issue. Truly have I turned to Thee and truly do I bow (to Thee) in Islam."  Arabic (from right to left): ‏46:15 ووصينا الانسان بوالديه احسانا حملته امه كرها ووضعته كرها وحمله وفصاله ثلاثون شهرا حتى اذا بلغ اشده وبلغ اربعين سنة قال رب اوزعني ان اشكر نعمتك التي انعمت على وعلى والدي وان اعمل صالحا ترضاه واصلح لي في ذريتي اني تبت اليك واني من المسلمين

So here we clearly and indisputably see Allah Almighty distinguishing between a helpless child and a growing human who reaches his full strength.

   

   

2-  Children reaching the "age of marriage" in Noble Verse 4:6:

Noble Verse(s) 4:6

Yusuf Ali: [004:006]  Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is God in taking account. Arabic (from right to left): ‏4:6 وابتلوا اليتامى حتى اذا بلغوا النكاح فان انستم منهم رشدا فادفعوا اليهم اموالهم ولاتاكلوها اسرافا وبدارا ان يكبروا ومن كان غنيا فليستعفف ومن كان فقيرا فلياكل بالمعروف فاذا دفعتم اليهم اموالهم فاشهدوا عليهم وكفى بالله حسيبا

So here the adult who is keeping the orphan's inheritance from his/her deceased parents is required by Allah Almighty to never release the money until:

1-  The orphan, boy or girl, reaches the age of marriage.

2-  The adult keeper must see a "sound judgment" and enough maturity and responsibility in him/her in order for the former to be allowed to release the money to the orphan.

   

   

3-  Female-children becoming fataaya (young ladies) become ready to be "wed":

Noble Verse(s) 4:25

Yusuf Ali: [004:025]  If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And God hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.  Arabic (from right to left): ‏4:25 ومن لم يستطع منكم طولا ان ينكح المحصنات المؤمنات فمن ماملكت ايمانكم من فتياتكم المؤمنات والله اعلم بايمانكم بعضكم من بعض فانكحوهن باذن اهلهن واتوهن اجورهن بالمعروف محصنات غير مسافحات ولامتخذات اخدان فاذا احصن فان اتين بفاحشة فعليهن نصف ماعلى المحصنات من العذاب ذلك لمن خشى العنت منكم وان تصبروا خير لكم والله غفور رحيم

A girl starts out being a child طفلة.  This is further proven in Noble Verses 22:5 and 40:67above (طفلا child).  Then she becomes a fataat فتاة , which is what فتياتكم  (your young ladies) is derived from in Noble Verse 4:25.

Clearly, Allah Almighty never allowed marriage with a طفلة child!

Furthermore, Allah Almighty Said:

Noble Verse(s) 24:59

Yusuf Ali: [024:059]  But when the children among you come of age, let them (also) ask for permission, as do those senior to them (in age): Thus does God make clear His Signs to you: for God is full of knowledge and wisdom.  Arabic (from right to left): ‏24:59 واذا بلغ الاطفال منكم الحلم فليستأذنوا كما استأذن الذين من قبلهم كذلك يبين الله لكم اياته والله عليم حكيم

الاطفال (children) is a plural, and it is derived from طفل (child), which is singular.  الحلم, which is translated as "come of age", literally means when the child knows about sex.  For boys, it also means that when he experiences his first ejaculation either in his sleep or through masturbation.

19 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

So just to be clear, if there is anything in Sunni books that the Imams were silent on, then you reject it?

The imams don't have to say everything when some obvious stuff is mentioned in Holy Qur'aan... Sunnis' hadiths are irrelevant concerning shia fiqh...

Assalamu alaikum 

La ilahe ilallah wa Muhammadan rasulullah wa Aliyan waliullah Ya Ali

[Haydar Husayn]

So just to be clear, there are Shias who believe that the Prophet was accused of something that is morally abhorrent, and the Imams never said a word about it (even though they corrected far more trivial errors in Sunni narrations), and neither did any Shia scholars, until (purely coincidentally of course) people in the West started making an issue about it.

Now, can those same people also explain why according to most Shia jurists, a girl becomes baligh at 9? They aren't getting that from Sunni ahadith.

[SoRoUsH]

36 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

So just to be clear, there are Shias who believe that the Prophet was accused of something that is morally abhorrent, and the Imams never said a word about it (even though they corrected far more trivial errors in Sunni narrations), and neither did any Shia scholars, until (purely coincidentally of course) people in the West started making an issue about it.

Now, can those same people also explain why according to most Shia jurists, a girl becomes baligh at 9? They aren't getting that from Sunni ahadith.

Did the Imams (as) corrected the narration regarding the prophet (pbuh) hitting Aisha in the chest, which caused her physical pain? Or did the prophet really do so?

[John_313]

55 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

So just to be clear, there are Shias who believe that the Prophet was accused of something that is morally abhorrent, and the Imams never said a word about it (even though they corrected far more trivial errors in Sunni narrations), and neither did any Shia scholars, until (purely coincidentally of course) people in the West started making an issue about it.

Now, can those same people also explain why according to most Shia jurists, a girl becomes baligh at 9? They aren't getting that from Sunni ahadith.

Because they were silent, it is true? It can't, because they didn't claim so... and as the brother asked...

 

19 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Did the Imams (as) corrected the narration regarding the prophet (pbuh) hitting Aisha in the chest, which caused her physical pain? Or did the prophet really do so?

Assalamu alaikum 

La ilahe ilallah wa Muhammadan rasulullah wa Aliyan waliullah Ya Ali

[Haydar Husayn]

27 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Did the Imams (as) corrected the narration regarding the prophet (pbuh) hitting Aisha in the chest, which caused her physical pain? Or did the prophet really do so?

Maybe he did do it. As far as I remember it was more of a push than a 'hit', and in any case it wouldn't be haram.

Anyway, something tells me that those you don't think both are equally serious accusations.

I notice you conveniently ignore the other points I made as well.

[Haydar Husayn]

10 minutes ago, SheikhAlHabib'fan said:

Because they were silent, it is true? It can't, because they didn't claim so... and as the brother asked...

Why would they be silent about something so serious?

And can one of you please get round to addressing the problem of the Shia narrations that say a girl becomes a baligh at 9? You keep avoiding this issue for some reason.

[SoRoUsH]

2 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Maybe he did do it. As far as I remember it was more of a push than a 'hit', and in any case it wouldn't be haram.

Anyway, something tells me that those you don't think both are equally serious accusations.

I notice you conveniently ignore the other points I made as well.

I only care for what the Imams and prophet have said and done. 

Also, I'm not sure if you read my previous posts. I do not disagree that marrying a girl who has reached puberty is permitted under specific regulations. Eating pork is permitted, too, under certain circumstances. 

The main part of the discussion is whether the prophet committed such act. And clearly there are not any acceptable ahadeeth from our infallibles confirming that he did.