The Ages Of Aisha And Lady Fatima (as) At Marriage

[Khadim uz Zahra]

(bismillah)

(salam)

I hope you are all in the best of health and Imaan (faith).

So, I have recently seen people being very concerned about the allegation some non-Muslims make against the Holy Prophet (pbuh) , in regards to the age of his wife Aisha at the time of their marriage. Many a Muslims are shocked when they hear of the narrations regarding her age (there are, of course, differing accounts but I am talking about the accounts which age her fairly her young, at around 6 when the marriage took place and 9 at the time of consummation). Many non-Muslims try to raise this as an issue to malign the Prophet (pbuh) as immoral and a man who is controlled by carnal desires - I am not even going to mention the names they call him because of how lowly they are.

This is why I decided to give a few points which helped me out on this matter, mainly the age of Lady Fatima (peace be upon her), when she was married. Although I, myself, am not really sure and do not have a concrete view on what really was Aisha's age at the time of the marriage because I have seen conflicting theories and I can't seem to decide which one is right, at least, not at the moment. I did, however, come up with something that makes me very comfortable, even if she was 9 at the time of consummation, as those who like to malign the Prophet (pbuh) would like and I would like to share this with you.

Before I delve into the point which occurred to me, I want to give an example. I remember a member of Shiachat creating a thread recently, explaining how his/her (I don't want to give too many clues about the identity of that person because the member may not like it) father had this addiction for pornography and how he overcame it. One of the major reasons this person gave for his/her father leaving this nasty habit was that he could not accept his daughter doing "something silly with stupid men" and, so, the women in those magazines/videos were also the daughters of someone and if he disliked his daughters doing such acts, he should also take into account that these women were also the daughters of someone. Now, the only reason I brought up this whole thing was to show one thing: in these cases of immorality, no matter how vile and immoral the person is, he/she would still be very uncomfortable with his own daughters performing the acts of indecency that he was so used to. The point, in a nutshell, is that a person may do all sorts of morally corrupt actions but when it comes to their own children, they don't like the idea of their own children doing those acts, no matter how much of it they, themselves, do it.

Coming to the Prophet (pbuh) , the thing I want to point out is that, according to the Shi'i narrations, the age of Lady Fatima (peace be upon her) at the time of marriage was 9 (according to the Sunni narrations, she was a bit more older, at around 11, but would still be considered a child by the standards of those who try to malign the Prophet (pbuh) and, so, the age we take does not matter - she was a "child" at that time). It is said that she had her first-born when she was 10 and, so, it is reasonable to assume that the marriage was consummated when she was still 9, or at most, 10. Now, if the Prophet (pbuh) was an indecent man who married Aisha at such a young age because of whatever reasons the opponents give, trying to make it look like immoral, I want to ask, keeping in mind the example I gave above, even if he was so immoral, why would he let his daughter also marry at approximately the same age as his marriage was consummated with Aisha? Even the most vile person would not allow his daughter to undergo oppression, which is what they say the Prophet (pbuh) marriage to Aisha was, to Aisha.

The Prophet (pbuh) 's decision to let his own daughter marry at this "young" age clearly shows that he did not find it immoral for a woman to marry at this age and, therefore, he cannot be criticised regarding his marriage to Aisha. The concept of morality he had did not make it immoral to marry a 9 year old and, so, we cannot use our standards on him! I wonder why those modernists who even support homosexuality simply on the premise of multiculturalism, tolerance and accepting the differences within cultures are so eager to attack the Prophet (pbuh) when the same reasons apply to his case?

Some do try and purport that the concept of morality in his time was different but his actions, being those of a Prophet, should be moral for all ages and times. This is, perhaps, the most ludicrous arguement one could make in this regard. There are two very basic flaws in such an arguement:

1. He is the Prophet of Allah (pbuh) , the Messenger of God who teaches us what God deems right and wrong and, so, morality should be predicated upon his commands and actions. We should appraise the morality of our actions using him as the model and not the other way round, evaluating his actions on our conceptions of morality. Such a thing is extremely outrageous and ridiculous because according to social dynamics, the what is perceived as moral or immoral with society is always changing and, so, we cannot judge his actions on a scale that is not even constant. He is the yardstick and, so, we can't judge the yardstick based on the specimen because that is totally opposite logic!

2. Like I have said above, conceptions of morality are always changing within societies and, so, we can't expect someone's actions to fulfill the requirements of all these differing concepts. Sometimes, we may find the conception of what is moral regarding a certain issue being contradictory to what is conceived as moral in another society. How can we expect - or, indeed, ask - a person to be moral using both definitions when, obviously, they are antithetical?

Insha'Allah, I have been helpful, clear and objective in my reasoning and have not hurt anyone! :D

May Allah (SWT) bless us all, our families and loved ones, guide us all to The Straight Path with His Perfect Guidance, increase our knowledge and Imaan and may He, The Forgiver of Sins and the Oft-Forgiving, forgive all our sins for, verily, there is neither any refuge nor any respite for the sinners, except in Allah (SWT) .

[titumir]

I already made a post on a previous topic discussing this issue, in which I showed sources which say that the average life expectancy back then was about 30 years. In that case, 9 years is 1/3rd of a person's life. Nowadays people marry at 20, while the life expectancy is around 70, which is still around 1/3rd of a person's life. So the relative age of marriage has remained the same throughout the ages.

[Aly ReZa]

i am not interested in ayesha at all so i dunno about her

But i am pretty sure that zehra s,a was 9 yrs old.

[Shia_Debater]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Jazakamullah Khairun for taking your time to write this bro :D

(wasalam)

[Khadim uz Zahra]

(bismillah)

I already made a post on a previous topic discussing this issue, in which I showed sources which say that the average life expectancy back then was about 30 years. In that case, 9 years is 1/3rd of a person's life. Nowadays people marry at 20, while the life expectancy is around 70, which is still around 1/3rd of a person's life. So the relative age of marriage has remained the same throughout the ages.

(salam)

Well, yes, that could be another way of approaching the problem. My response, however, was aiming at trying to use Lady Fatima (as) 's age at marriage in order to justify the marriage of the Prophet (pbuh) to a nine-year-old, if she was that age at all. Also, I wanted to refute this arguement that some wish to bring that his actions should be moral to people of all times and places. Thank you for also bringing this into my knowledge. :D

(bismillah)

(salam)

Jazakamullah Khairun for taking your time to write this bro :D

(wasalam)

(wasalam) wa RAHMATULLAHI WA BARAKATOH.

(wasalam) wa RAHMATULLAHI WA BARAKATOH. :D

JAZAKAMULLAH KHAIRUN for reading this! :D

[UndercoverBrother]

Mashallah beautiful post

[Qa'im]

The following hadith is in al-Kafi, and it is saheeh:

إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص دَخَلَ بِعَائِشَةَ وَ هِيَ بِنْتُ عَشْرِ سِنِينَ وَ لَيْسَ يُدْخَلُ بِالْجَارِيَةِ حَتَّى تَكُونَ امْرَأَةً

The Prophet (pbuh) had consummated with `A'isha when she was 10 years old. And one does not have intercourse with a young girl until she becomes a woman (hits puberty).

If you bring all of the sources together, both Sunni and Shi`i, there will be some differences in opinion on when the Prophet consummated the marriage, but the detail that all Muslims agree upon is that she had hit puberty prior to any intercourse.

Evangelists and orientalists in last few decades have been poking at our Prophet's character and his conduct regarding this marriage. In response to this, some Muslims have brought together complex theories that try to make `A'isha much older. I agree that her age may be somewhat unclear from the sources, but one must understand that Islamically there would be no problem with marrying a young woman.

1. Once a woman has her menstrual cycle, she is biologically a woman. She's ready for procreation (even though the Prophet did not procreate with her) and physically ready for marriage. Yes, a person can mature mentally with the years, but that's a process that takes a lifetime.

2. It was normal for women to get married at young ages at the time. The enemies of the Prophet did not withhold their insults, but they had never insulted his marriage nor had they accused him of any lewd or profane acts. In many cultures, including European cultures, it was very normal for a woman to get married soon after hitting puberty. Christian sources estimate that Mary (as) was only 12 when she became pregnant with the Messiah Jesus (as).

3. Women did not need to go to school for twenty years, nor were they responsible for joining the work force. Once they matured (and ancient people had many responsibilities and matured quickly) young girls were trained for marriage and their parents looked for a husband who can provide for them and protect them. Even in the case of Fatima (as), it's likely that she was only 18 when she died, and at that point she had already been married to Ali (as) for a number of years. The Imam and his wife were a younger couple, but there was still a large age gap between the two (larger than most modern couples).

4. People did not live as long back then and thus had to marry earlier.

5. People today are "children" until they're 21 or 18, while people were full adults (both in rights and punishments) at puberty in most ancient cultures.

While marrying early may be odd for us today, it's a subjective issue that is dependent on our cultures. There's definitely a lot of advantages to marrying early though: people are more likely to remain chaste and families are more stable. Most cultures have just recently stopped this practice (in the past century), so you can argue that the practice has "worked for this long" and if anything had been wrong with it, it would not have been so widespread for centuries.

[MohammadAli1993]

On 03/05/2012 at 0:18 PM, Khadim uz Zahra said:

(bismillah)

(salam)

Well, yes, that could be another way of approaching the problem. My response, however, was aiming at trying to use Lady Fatima (as) 's age at marriage in order to justify the marriage of the Prophet (pbuh) to a nine-year-old, if she was that age at all. Also, I wanted to refute this arguement that some wish to bring that his actions should be moral to people of all times and places. Thank you for also bringing this into my knowledge.

(wasalam) wa RAHMATULLAHI WA BARAKATOH.

(wasalam) wa RAHMATULLAHI WA BARAKATOH.

JAZAKAMULLAH KHAIRUN for reading this!

The Prophet didn't marry Aisha at the age of nine according to the Bakri narrations. But 6. And tell me also. Why on earth would our beloved Prophet have intercourse with a ordinary little 9 year old girl. That makes no sense! 

[MohammadAli1993]

On 07/05/2012 at 10:50 PM, Qa'im said:

The following hadith is in al-Kafi, and it is saheeh:

إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص دَخَلَ بِعَائِشَةَ وَ هِيَ بِنْتُ عَشْرِ سِنِينَ وَ لَيْسَ يُدْخَلُ بِالْجَارِيَةِ حَتَّى تَكُونَ امْرَأَةً

The Prophet (pbuh) had consummated with `A'isha when she was 10 years old. And one does not have intercourse with a young girl until she becomes a woman (hits puberty).

If you bring all of the sources together, both Sunni and Shi`i, there will be some differences in opinion on when the Prophet consummated the marriage, but the detail that all Muslims agree upon is that she had hit puberty prior to any intercourse.

Evangelists and orientalists in last few decades have been poking at our Prophet's character and his conduct regarding this marriage. In response to this, some Muslims have brought together complex theories that try to make `A'isha much older. I agree that her age may be somewhat unclear from the sources, but one must understand that Islamically there would be no problem with marrying a young woman.

1. Once a woman has her menstrual cycle, she is biologically a woman. She's ready for procreation (even though the Prophet did not procreate with her) and physically ready for marriage. Yes, a person can mature mentally with the years, but that's a process that takes a lifetime.

2. It was normal for women to get married at young ages at the time. The enemies of the Prophet did not withhold their insults, but they had never insulted his marriage nor had they accused him of any lewd or profane acts. In many cultures, including European cultures, it was very normal for a woman to get married soon after hitting puberty. An example off the top of my head is James Cook, a British explorer from the 18th century whose wife was only 12. Likewise, Christian sources estimate that Mary (as) was only 12 when she became pregnant with the Messiah Jesus (as).

3. Women did not need to go to school for twenty years, nor were they responsible for joining the work force. Once they matured (and ancient people had many responsibilities and matured quickly) young girls were trained for marriage and their parents looked for a husband who can provide for them and protect them. Even in the case of Fatima (as), it's likely that she was only 18 when she died, and at that point she had already been married to Ali (as) for a number of years. The Imam and his wife were a younger couple, but there was still a large age gap between the two (larger than most modern couples).

4. People did not live as long back then and thus had to marry earlier.

5. People today are "children" until they're 21 or 18, while people were full adults (both in rights and punishments) at puberty in most ancient cultures.

While marrying early may be odd for us today, it's a subjective issue that is dependent on our cultures. There's definitely a lot of advantages to marrying early though: people are more likely to remain chaste and families are more stable. Most cultures have just recently stopped this practice (in the past century), so you can argue that the practice has "worked for this long" and if anything had been wrong with it, it would not have been so widespread for centuries.

That Hadith is not Sahih according all Shia scholars.  There are still doubts to this Hadith authenticity. Many scholars have argued against this Hadith so don't be fooled 

[Sumerian]

Just now, MohammadAli1993 said:

That Hadith is not Sahih according all Shia scholars.  There are still doubts to this Hadith authenticity. Many scholars have argued against this Hadith so don't be fooled 

Also, it is not the words of an Imam, rather it is the words of Isma'il ibn Ja'far.

[Qa'im]

7 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

The Prophet didn't marry Aisha at the age of nine according to the Bakri narrations. But 6. And tell me also. Why on earth would our beloved Prophet have intercourse with a ordinary little 9 year old girl. That makes no sense! 

Why does it make no sense? You should question your own biases, social surroundings and upbringings. If it truly made no sense, then why was the Prophet never criticized for his marriage of `A'isha until c. 1905? He was routinely criticized by orientalists and Christians for his marriage of Zaynab, and his polygamy in general, but the age of `A'isha is a modern question that neither Muslim nor non-Muslim questioned or touched until the 20th century. Perhaps even your own grandparents or great grandparents married at a similar age. I agree that there is some nuance in her age according to the sources (9, 10, perhaps older), but the point is that in our religion, there is no problem whatsoever with a person having sex once they have hit puberty. Even in Europe in the Middle Ages, the marriage age for women was 12. It makes most sense to posit marriage at puberty, because anything else (like age or "maturity") is highly subjective.

[MohammadAli1993]

On 05/04/2017 at 6:16 PM, Qa'im said:

Why does it make no sense? You should question your own biases, social surroundings and upbringings. If it truly made no sense, then why was the Prophet never criticized for his marriage of `A'isha until c. 1905? He was routinely criticized by orientalists and Christians for his marriage of Zaynab, and his polygamy in general, but the age of `A'isha is a modern question that neither Muslim nor non-Muslim questioned or touched until the 20th century. Perhaps even your own grandparents or great grandparents married at a similar age. I agree that there is some nuance in her age according to the sources (9, 10, perhaps older), but the point is that in our religion, there is no problem whatsoever with a person having sex once they have hit puberty. Even in Europe in the Middle Ages, the marriage age for women was 12. It makes most sense to posit marriage at puberty, because anything else (like age or "maturity") is highly subjective.

How do u know that he didn't get criticised? 

[MohammadAli1993]

Excuse me but don't u think it's filthy? A grown up man entering a 10year old. Wow really? Do u really believe that? 

[MohammadAli1993]

3 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

How do u know that he didn't get criticised? 

Do u know that the body isn't ready for sex once it hits puberty? The body is preparing its to get ready for sex and that takes years and years. Look into it brother. I can't believe human in this day and age believe that one can enter a young girl aged 10*.  Personally, I would feel disturbed 

[Husayni]

Let me make this clear. 

Back then, people would get married at young ages ( 9,10,12 ) etc. My great grandparents got married at 13. It was't very unusal. But nowadays, christians need to find EVERY way possible to bash islam and critisize it. Now they are spreading this news that ( God forbid ) Muhammad (saw) 'raped' a 9 year old. He didn't. They make it look like it's horrifying, just so people can hate islam even more.

This is why you see fake articles on islamic history, which are made by christians that claim to be muslim. And also, this is why you should not believe all you see on the internet. Talk to the sheikh at your mosque. See the teachings and rulings by your marja to be sure, etc.

 

 

[Qa'im]

53 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

How do u know that he didn't get criticised? 

There were many books in the last 1,400 years written against the personality of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), written by Christians, orientalists, and others. The very first person to criticize the Prophet's marriage with `A'isha due to her age was David Margoliouth in 1905, who called their marriage an "ill-advised union" and nothing more. Similarly, every Muslim historian before the 20th century said that `A'isha consummated her marriage by the age of 10 after puberty. There are some modern arguments that make her a bit older (13-18), but they go against all of the historical references that directly mention her age.

Like I said, marrying soon after puberty was the historical norm. Lady Fatima (as) probably married Imam `Ali (as) at the age of 9, but that is rarely discussed. Similarly, as I mentioned before, the marriage age in Europe was 12 for women in the Middle Ages. Even till today, in some parts of Europe, the marriage at is 14. In Colombia and Ecuador it is 12 for girls. Not to mention the age that people have boyfriends/girlfriends is quite young.

52 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Excuse me but don't u think it's filthy? A grown up man entering a 10year old. Wow really? Do u really believe that? 

Again, we cannot judge history based on our 21st century North American upbringing and personal feelings. We judge according to our moral compass and facts. The age of consent here is 16, but 16 is a random number chosen by our culture that is subject to the trends and norms of the time and place. Islam is for all times and places, and puberty is the only biological indicator to maturity. And yes, a woman can give birth to a child anytime after puberty. You can choose to marry at 40 if you want, but in a society with no mandatory schooling, with practically no good forms of birth control, marrying daughters after puberty made sense and was considered a conventional practice.

Almost all of the Prophet's wives were older widows, and the Prophet married them for various reasons, including building alliances with certain tribes and families. His marriage with `A'isha was public and was with her consent and the consent of her parents, and no one had an issue with it. He had no children with `A'isha.

[MohammadAli1993]

8 hours ago, Qa'im said:

There were many books in the last 1,400 years written against the personality of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), written by Christians, orientalists, and others. The very first person to criticize the Prophet's marriage with `A'isha due to her age was David Margoliouth in 1905, who called their marriage an "ill-advised union" and nothing more. Similarly, every Muslim historian before the 20th century said that `A'isha consummated her marriage by the age of 10 after puberty. There are some modern arguments that make her a bit older (13-18), but they go against all of the historical references that directly mention her age.

Like I said, marrying soon after puberty was the historical norm. Lady Fatima (as) probably married Imam `Ali (as) at the age of 9, but that is rarely discussed. Similarly, as I mentioned before, the marriage age in Europe was 12 for women in the Middle Ages. Even till today, in some parts of Europe, the marriage at is 14. In Colombia and Ecuador it is 12 for girls. Not to mention the age that people have boyfriends/girlfriends is quite young.

Again, we cannot judge history based on our 21st century North American upbringing and personal feelings. We judge according to our moral compass and facts. The age of consent here is 16, but 16 is a random number chosen by our culture that is subject to the trends and norms of the time and place. Islam is for all times and places, and puberty is the only biological indicator to maturity. And yes, a woman can give birth to a child anytime after puberty. You can choose to marry at 40 if you want, but in a society with no mandatory schooling, with practically no good forms of birth control, marrying daughters after puberty made sense and was considered a conventional practice.

Almost all of the Prophet's wives were older widows, and the Prophet married them for various reasons, including building alliances with certain tribes and families. His marriage with `A'isha was public and was with her consent and the consent of her parents, and no one had an issue with it. He had no children with `A'isha.

If you ask me about this, I cannot make any logical sense that our Beloved Prophet of Islam did such an act with a 10 year old Kid. Why would he have the need to carry such an act. Was he desperate? Didn't he have older wives? Wow man. This blows my mind. 

[Qa'im]

8 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

If you ask me about this, I cannot make any logical sense that our Beloved Prophet of Islam did such an act with a 10 year old Kid. Why would he have the need to carry such an act. Was he desperate? Didn't he have older wives? Wow man. This blows my mind. 

No, he did it because it was a very normal and valid thing to do. You should ask when your grandparents or great grandparents got married, you may be surprised. The way things are done today in North America are not necessarily the only right way, and in fact there are many problems with it.

[Al Hadi]

On 4/24/2012 at 9:03 PM, Khadim uz Zahra said:

(bismillah)

(salam)

I hope you are all in the best of health and Imaan (faith).

So, I have recently seen people being very concerned about the allegation some non-Muslims make against the Holy Prophet (pbuh) , in regards to the age of his wife Aisha at the time of their marriage. Many a Muslims are shocked when they hear of the narrations regarding her age (there are, of course, differing accounts but I am talking about the accounts which age her fairly her young, at around 6 when the marriage took place and 9 at the time of consummation). Many non-Muslims try to raise this as an issue to malign the Prophet (pbuh) as immoral and a man who is controlled by carnal desires - I am not even going to mention the names they call him because of how lowly they are.

This is why I decided to give a few points which helped me out on this matter, mainly the age of Lady Fatima (peace be upon her), when she was married. Although I, myself, am not really sure and do not have a concrete view on what really was Aisha's age at the time of the marriage because I have seen conflicting theories and I can't seem to decide which one is right, at least, not at the moment. I did, however, come up with something that makes me very comfortable, even if she was 9 at the time of consummation, as those who like to malign the Prophet (pbuh) would like and I would like to share this with you.

Before I delve into the point which occurred to me, I want to give an example. I remember a member of Shiachat creating a thread recently, explaining how his/her (I don't want to give too many clues about the identity of that person because the member may not like it) father had this addiction for pornography and how he overcame it. One of the major reasons this person gave for his/her father leaving this nasty habit was that he could not accept his daughter doing "something silly with stupid men" and, so, the women in those magazines/videos were also the daughters of someone and if he disliked his daughters doing such acts, he should also take into account that these women were also the daughters of someone. Now, the only reason I brought up this whole thing was to show one thing: in these cases of immorality, no matter how vile and immoral the person is, he/she would still be very uncomfortable with his own daughters performing the acts of indecency that he was so used to. The point, in a nutshell, is that a person may do all sorts of morally corrupt actions but when it comes to their own children, they don't like the idea of their own children doing those acts, no matter how much of it they, themselves, do it.

Coming to the Prophet (pbuh) , the thing I want to point out is that, according to the Shi'i narrations, the age of Lady Fatima (peace be upon her) at the time of marriage was 9 (according to the Sunni narrations, she was a bit more older, at around 11, but would still be considered a child by the standards of those who try to malign the Prophet (pbuh) and, so, the age we take does not matter - she was a "child" at that time). It is said that she had her first-born when she was 10 and, so, it is reasonable to assume that the marriage was consummated when she was still 9, or at most, 10. Now, if the Prophet (pbuh) was an indecent man who married Aisha at such a young age because of whatever reasons the opponents give, trying to make it look like immoral, I want to ask, keeping in mind the example I gave above, even if he was so immoral, why would he let his daughter also marry at approximately the same age as his marriage was consummated with Aisha? Even the most vile person would not allow his daughter to undergo oppression, which is what they say the Prophet (pbuh) marriage to Aisha was, to Aisha.

The Prophet (pbuh) 's decision to let his own daughter marry at this "young" age clearly shows that he did not find it immoral for a woman to marry at this age and, therefore, he cannot be criticised regarding his marriage to Aisha. The concept of morality he had did not make it immoral to marry a 9 year old and, so, we cannot use our standards on him! I wonder why those modernists who even support homosexuality simply on the premise of multiculturalism, tolerance and accepting the differences within cultures are so eager to attack the Prophet (pbuh) when the same reasons apply to his case?

Some do try and purport that the concept of morality in his time was different but his actions, being those of a Prophet, should be moral for all ages and times. This is, perhaps, the most ludicrous arguement one could make in this regard. There are two very basic flaws in such an arguement:

1. He is the Prophet of Allah (pbuh) , the Messenger of God who teaches us what God deems right and wrong and, so, morality should be predicated upon his commands and actions. We should appraise the morality of our actions using him as the model and not the other way round, evaluating his actions on our conceptions of morality. Such a thing is extremely outrageous and ridiculous because according to social dynamics, the what is perceived as moral or immoral with society is always changing and, so, we cannot judge his actions on a scale that is not even constant. He is the yardstick and, so, we can't judge the yardstick based on the specimen because that is totally opposite logic!

2. Like I have said above, conceptions of morality are always changing within societies and, so, we can't expect someone's actions to fulfill the requirements of all these differing concepts. Sometimes, we may find the conception of what is moral regarding a certain issue being contradictory to what is conceived as moral in another society. How can we expect - or, indeed, ask - a person to be moral using both definitions when, obviously, they are antithetical?

Insha'Allah, I have been helpful, clear and objective in my reasoning and have not hurt anyone!

May Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì bless us all, our families and loved ones, guide us all to The Straight Path with His Perfect Guidance, increase our knowledge and Imaan and may He, The Forgiver of Sins and the Oft-Forgiving, forgive all our sins for, verily, there is neither any refuge nor any respite for the sinners, except in Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì .

Your wrong bro

its because social dynamics change that we need constant rules that don't change. The guidance of God is eternal and doesn't change. Halal ala ale Muhammad halal ila yawmil qiyamah. Haram ala Aleh Muhammad haram ila yawmil qiyamah. Simple philosophy we should follow that.

also the prophet(saw) did not base his actions on what was right or wrong at the time. So what your implying if I'm understanding correctly is a logical fallacy. The prophet's(saw) actions were not based on the social norms at the time if they were he wouldn't have gone through all the conflicts he went through and the society wouldn't have had a problem with him or any of the other prophets(as). This his actions are a standard for us and guidance.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Al Hadi

[Haydar Husayn]

18 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Excuse me but don't u think it's filthy? A grown up man entering a 10year old. Wow really? Do u really believe that? 

So, going back to the original post, how old do you think Sayyida Fatima was when she got married?

And can you tell us at what age the Imams said to was ok for a woman to consummate a marriage?

This is the point I never get. People want to talk about how disgusting it is, and then conveniently forget that the Imams didn't seem to have a problem with it. Not only did they never say a word about these alleged lies (which you would think they would be anxious to refute), they reinforced the view that a girl becomes a woman at 9 (assuming she has gone through puberty). So instead of going on about Sunni hadith concerning Aisha, maybe people should criticises those Shia hadiths instead.

[Haydar Husayn]

1 hour ago, Al Hadi said:

Your wrong bro

its because social dynamics change that we need constant rules that don't change. The guidance of God is eternal and doesn't change. Halal ala ale Muhammad halal ila yawmil qiyamah. Haram ala Aleh Muhammad haram ila yawmil qiyamah. Simple philosophy we should follow that.

also the prophet(saw) did not base his actions on what was right or wrong at the time. So what your implying if I'm understanding correctly is a logical fallacy. The prophet's(saw) actions were not based on the social norms at the time if they were he wouldn't have gone through all the conflicts he went through and the society wouldn't have had a problem with him or any of the other prophets(as). This his actions are a standard for us and guidance.

Of course they were based on the norms of his time, but that's not to say that there was objectively anything wrong with what happened. If the same situation were to be replicated in future, or in some other part of the word, then there would be nothing wrong with it either. But in a society with such extended childhoods, it is not suitable for people to get married so young.

[Al Hadi]

2 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

But in a society with such extended childhoods, it is not suitable for people to get married so young.

I agree with everything you said but want to address this part.

it might not be "suitable" in our view but I wouldn't say it's not "suitable" period. I feel the childhood these days may be extended to far. Maybe ahlul bayt were trying to tell us not to be extending to much or it is fine if it isn't extended very far with proper parenting. So I think it's fine for women to get married very young but I guess it depends on each ones situation. 

I however disagree with the point of the op.

[MohammadAli1993]

15 hours ago, Qa'im said:

No, he did it because it was a very normal and valid thing to do. You should ask when your grandparents or great grandparents got married, you may be surprised. The way things are done today in North America are not necessarily the only right way, and in fact there are many problems with it.

They certainly didn't have an age GAP OF 50 years. 

[MohammadAli1993]

14 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

So, going back to the original post, how old do you think Sayyida Fatima was when she got married?

And can you tell us at what age the Imams said to was ok for a woman to consummate a marriage?

This is the point I never get. People want to talk about how disgusting it is, and then conveniently forget that the Imams didn't seem to have a problem with it. Not only did they never say a word about these alleged lies (which you would think they would be anxious to refute), they reinforced the view that a girl becomes a woman at 9 (assuming she has gone through puberty). So instead of going on about Sunni hadith concerning Aisha, maybe people should criticises those Shia hadiths instead.

Fatimah Zahra s.a is different to Aisha or lets say to any ordinary woman on this earth. She was mature way before Aisha and a Lady. Like I've mentioned she cannot be compared. 

Whenever the Prophet carries an action, it is done in a way that us suitable for every generation and not just for 1400 years ago. If it was the norm to have sex with little children whilst you are an Adult then it should have stayed the same. In today's society, one can clearly see that such an action is clearly not suitable or practical but abhored. 

[Haydar Husayn]

2 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Fatimah Zahra s.a is different to Aisha or lets say to any ordinary woman on this earth. She was mature way before Aisha and a Lady. Like I've mentioned she cannot be compared. 

Whenever the Prophet carries an action, it is done in a way that us suitable for every generation and not just for 1400 years ago. If it was the norm to have sex with little children whilst you are an Adult then it should have stayed the same. In today's society, one can clearly see that such an action is clearly not suitable or practical but abhored. 

What do you mean she was mature way before Aisha? Do you think at the age of 9 she looked like a fully grown woman? And doesn't what you said about the Prophet ask apply to Imam Ali? Can he perform actions that are only suitable for his time?

And you've dodged the question again. Why did the Imams not refute this lie, and why did they say that a girl becomes a woman at 9?

I don't know what makes you think that just because something was the norm in the past that it should have stayed that way. Even just a few centuries ago in the West it was normal for 12 year olds to get married. This hasn't stayed the same though. People's way of living have completely changed, and with it norms about getting married have too. Things aren't even consistent from country to country in the West. In many European countries, such as Germany or Italy, the age of consent is 14 (until 2009 it was 13 in Spain). In other countries that would get you branded as a pedophile.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Haydar Husayn

[MohammadAli1993]

7 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

What do you mean she was mature way before Aisha? Do you think at the age of 9 she looked like a fully grown woman? And doesn't what you said about the Prophet ask apply to Imam Ali? Can he perform actions that are only suitable for his time?

And you've dodged the question again. Why did the Imams not refute this lie, and why did they say that a girl becomes a woman at 9?

I don't know what makes you think that just because something was the norm in the past that it should have stayed that way. Even just a few centuries ago in the West it was normal for 12 year olds to get married. This hasn't stayed the same though. People's way of living have completely changed, and with it norms about getting married have too. Things aren't even consistent from country to country in the West. In many European countries, such as Germany or Italy, the age of consent is 14 (until 2009 it was 13 in Spain). In other countries that would get you branded as a pedophile.

Please think a little bit brother. A Grown up man who twice her size is... No. I won't accept that my friend. You can justify it with any means you like but I simply don't believe it's true and BTW, there is evidence out there that suggest that Aisha was a lot older than 9 when she got married 

[Haydar Husayn]

1 hour ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Please think a little bit brother. A Grown up man who twice her size is... No. I won't accept that my friend. You can justify it with any means you like but I simply don't believe it's true and BTW, there is evidence out there that suggest that Aisha was a lot older than 9 when she got married 

Still dodging the awkward questions I see.

So, can you at least tell us what you think the minimum age Aisha should have been to make it acceptable? Please note that even if you push her age back as far as 19, as some try to do, then she would still be far younger than the Prophet.

[MuslimahAK]

I thought 'Aiesha was 19 when she got married and that Bibi Fatimah was around 10 when she got married, with 'Ali being in his 20s?

[Ali_Hussain]

On 08/04/2017 at 10:02 PM, Haydar Husayn said:

Still dodging the awkward questions I see.

So, can you at least tell us what you think the minimum age Aisha should have been to make it acceptable? Please note that even if you push her age back as far as 19, as some try to do, then she would still be far younger than the Prophet.

The issue is that certain well loved scholars such as Yassir al-Habib and Hasan Allahyari have come out and tried to refute the notion that A'isha was 9, so their followers will never accept other opinions. I had a discussion with one of them who gave me the link to a video assuring me that there was only the opinion of Shi'a scholars and Shi'a narrations used, and of course, there was not a single one, and half the video was exposing A'isha's crimes. When I questioned the reasons for the second half of the video, I was accused of defending her.

These people don't understand the implications of claiming that what A'isha claims is pedophilia, or else they do and just don't care, their hate for her is stronger than their love for him.

[Sumerian]

On 09/04/2017 at 4:18 AM, MohammadAli1993 said:

Please think a little bit brother. A Grown up man who twice her size is... No. I won't accept that my friend. You can justify it with any means you like but I simply don't believe it's true and BTW, there is evidence out there that suggest that Aisha was a lot older than 9 when she got married 

You know in Fiqh there is no age for marriage?

[MohammadAli1993]

7 hours ago, E.L King said:

You know in Fiqh there is no age for marriage?

Why isn't there? I mean why would someone marry a 1 year old girl. Can you please give me one scenario 

[MohammadAli1993]

On 08/04/2017 at 9:02 PM, Haydar Husayn said:

Still dodging the awkward questions I see.

So, can you at least tell us what you think the minimum age Aisha should have been to make it acceptable? Please note that even if you push her age back as far as 19, as some try to do, then she would still be far younger than the Prophet.

Not as young as 9 or 10.

[Haydar Husayn]

3 minutes ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Not as young as 9 or 10.

So what then? 16, 18, 21?

[MohammadAli1993]

27 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

So what then? 16, 18, 21?

27 minutes ago, Haydar Husayn said:

So what then? 16, 18, 21?

 

Do u really believe that the blessed Prophet needed to enter upon Aisha when she was only 10?

[Haydar Husayn]

2 hours ago, MohammadAli1993 said:

Do u really believe that the blessed Prophet needed to enter upon Aisha when she was only 10?

Why are you finding it so hard to answer the question? It's hard to take seriously someone who objects to one particular age, but can't say what age would have been acceptable.

Any age of consent is completely arbitrary, as long as a woman is physically capable. Obviously I believe that was the case for Aisha, or else the Prophet wouldn't have done it.