Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

[Closed/Review]Where Is Unity Now? Why Is Wef Not Taking Action?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

Salaams & Ya Ali Madad

Slightly naughty title but I wanted to get your attention. Atrocities against Shi'ah in Pakistan have reached new heights of barbarity, Maula protect them and punish their oppressors.

So, for all the ShiaChat members on here constantly harping on and on about two subjects that really rile me - how many leading sunni people/organisations/countries have condemned (or even mentioned) the mass killings? How many sunnis have stood up for their Shi'ah brothers?

Moving on, how has the WeF (supposedly leader of the worlds Shi'ah and, for some zealots, a representative of the 12th Imam ajtf) responded to these events? Is he preparing an invasion as I type to protect his followers?

I'm not being facetious (because these are serious points). I've 'debated' with people on and off here about the absurdity of both 'unity' with haters of Shi'ah and the bid'ah of WeF.

So, right now in Pakistan (and Bahrain) both of these concepts should mean something otherwise they're just empty political slogans and have no relevance at all for us.

I'll ask again and really hope for some reasonable, thoughtful responses.

How has the effort for Muslim unity helped the Shi'ah of Pakistan and what is the "World Leader of all the 12er Shi'ah" doing about it?

Maula curse the oppressors and protect the true Shi'ah of Ali (as).

ALI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Who said he's the 'world leader of all Shias'? He's the Supreme Leader of Iran. Noone claims otherwise.

I take it you are joking? Read the 'rules' & listen to the constant rhetoric about what the WeF is and who he's supposed to represent. He is the leader of Iran for sure but that's alongside being WeF which stretches beyond national boundaries.

I hope to see responses from those who cry for sunni-shia unity for this.

Looking forward to the same.

ALI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I take it you are joking? Read the 'rules' & listen to the constant rhetoric about what the WeF is and who he's supposed to represent. He is the leader of Iran for sure but that's alongside being WeF which stretches beyond national boundaries.

Has he himself ever claimed to represent the Imam (ATFS)? No, the IR is merely an attempt at an Islamic government, designed to do the best job it can FOR IRAN, in the absence of an infallalbe.

Does Syed Khamenei lead Iraq? No.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

^^^

I'm not talking about IR/Iran, I'm talking specifically about the remit of WeF. Most supporters claimed he represents all the Shi'ah and how it's a position supported by narrations.

Maybe you aren't of the opinion but majority n thrall to the concept are.

ALI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Who said he's the 'world leader of all Shias'? He's the Supreme Leader of Iran. Noone claims otherwise.

Some people used to push him as the leader of world wide Shia. But things are changing now. You can search some old topics on ShiaChat. We have topics where some people thought Sayyed Khamenei is/should be the leader for all the Shia. But like I said, this idea is not being pushed anymore on ShiaChat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

^^^

I'm not talking about IR/Iran, I'm talking specifically about the remit of WeF. Most supporters claimed he represents all the Shi'ah and how it's a position supported by narrations.

Maybe you aren't of the opinion but majority n thrall to the concept are.

ALI

But that's ridiculous. The WF has never lead Iraq, in any way, shape, or form.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

^^^

<sigh> I know he hasn't ever led Iraq or any other country. And I know he's the leader of Iran. But those who believe in absolute rule by WeF maintain this stretches beyond national boundaries; the maraje are theoretically under his 'rule'.

In turn muqallids turn to their marja for guidance and leadership. So, where is the leadership and action to help the Shi'ah of Pakistan (or any other country for that matter)?

ALI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is what Khameini's own fatwa says:

Q 62: Are the commands of the jurist leader binding for all Muslims or only for his followers? Is it obligatory for someone, who makes taqlīd of a mujtahid who does not believe in the absolute authority of the jurist leader, to obey him or not?

A: According to the Shī‘ah denomination, it is obligatory for all Muslims to submit to the wilā’ī edicts issued by the jurist leader, and to comply with his commands and proscriptions. This ruling applies to all eminent mujtahids, let alone their followers! In our opinion, commitment to the authority of the jurist leader is not separable from the commitment to Islam and the authority of the infallible Imams (as).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

This is what Khameini's own fatwa says:

Q 62: Are the commands of the jurist leader binding for all Muslims or only for his followers? Is it obligatory for someone, who makes taqlīd of a mujtahid who does not believe in the absolute authority of the jurist leader, to obey him or not?

A: According to the Shī‘ah denomination, it is obligatory for all Muslims to submit to the wilā’ī edicts issued by the jurist leader, and to comply with his commands and proscriptions. This ruling applies to all eminent mujtahids, let alone their followers! In our opinion, commitment to the authority of the jurist leader is not separable from the commitment to Islam and the authority of the infallible Imams (as).

I'd not seen or ever read that before so thanks for posting it. I'm honestly lost for words.

Any overt moves by the Islamic Republic will make things just much worse for the Shias. Than y'all will blame WF for making Pakistan a hell hole for his own interests. God damn you hypocrites

Whether things get worse or not is hard to know. WeF is supposedly the supreme authority and ruler for all 12er Shi'ah but what does that amount to if subjects are being massacred and nothing is said or done?

ALI

Some people used to push him as the leader of world wide Shia. But things are changing now. You can search some old topics on ShiaChat. We have topics where some people thought Sayyed Khamenei is/should be the leader for all the Shia. But like I said, this idea is not being pushed anymore on ShiaChat.

I think the hubbub has quietened down on this forum in recent times but followers of WeF still believe in this - br macisaac's quote of his fatwa bears that out...

ALI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Ayat Seestani:

Question:

“Are the ahkam wila’iya (orders of the juristic authority) of the Wali Faqih implemented upon all the Muslims globally or is it specific to the area of his authority?”

Answer:

“The Hukm of the Mujtahid who fulfilled the criteria and is accepted by the general masses, is implemented without any bounds in what is related to ordaining society unless his mistake becomes apparent and was contrary to what is certainly proven from the Qur’an and Sunnah.” Fatwa number 134

“It is not permissible to abrogate/break the hukm (order/command/rule) of the (religious) governor/ruler (hakim), who meets all the necessary criterion (for governance/ruling), even by another mujtahid, except if it (the hukm) is contrary to what has been proven, with certainty, by the Qur’an and Sunnah.”

Minhaj al-Saleheen V. 1 page 15

http://tatbir.org/?page_id=98

what can iran do when it has enemies all over the place ... wanting to destroy it??

Say wow to sayid seestani.

"implemented without any bounds"

"even by another mujtahid,"

there you go!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member

Any overt moves by the Islamic Republic will make things just much worse for the Shias. Than y'all will blame WF for making Pakistan a hell hole for his own interests. God damn you hypocrites

Agreed.

Ayatullah Ali Akbar Khamenai (Hz) is only a Wali e Faqih. People (so called followers of Ahl ul bayt a.s) did not spare Imams a.s at many occasions. So called Shias taunted Imam Hassan a.s when he a.s was forced to enter into peace treaty with Muawvia (l.a) due to unfaithfulness of so called Shias. So called Shias asked Imam Ali Raza a.s to fight against Abbassids for his a.s right. That was Isha time Imam a.s asked why do not you offer Fajar prayer. The asker said "This is not Fajar time". Imam a.s replied the same is true position of our rebellion against Abbassids. We know when to do this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Some people think like umar

Although these terms were apparently disadvantageous to the Muslims, the Prophet accepted them. No sooner had the terms been agreed upon than a critical situation arose. Abu Jundal, son of the said Suhail, had been imprisoned by his father for accepting Islam and was being severely mistreated. He managed to escape and, with his fetters on, reached Hudaibiyah just before the treaty was signed. Suhail, the emissary of the Meccans, demanded his return according to the terms of the treaty. The Muslims said that the treaty had not been signed yet. Suhail said that if his son was not returned to him, there would be no treaty at all. Abu Jundal pleaded with the Muslims in the name of mercy not to throw him back to the tyranny of the Meccans and showed the injuries they had inflicted upon him. The Muslims were moved to plead his cause and 'Umar made an impassioned appeal, but the Prophet silenced them by declaring that he could not break a treaty. He consoled Abu Jundal by saying that God would create some way for his deliverance.

Some Muslims were unhappy abut this treaty. 'Umar ibn al-Khattab talked very rudely to the Holy Prophet. Afterwards, he used to say: "Never did I have doubt (about the truth of Islam) since my acceptance of Islam except on that day (of Hudaibiyah)."

http://www.al-islam.org/lifeprophet/

sometimes you got to be smart .... not like umar

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

This is what Khameini's own fatwa says:

Q 62: Are the commands of the jurist leader binding for all Muslims or only for his followers? Is it obligatory for someone, who makes taqlīd of a mujtahid who does not believe in the absolute authority of the jurist leader, to obey him or not?

A: According to the Shī‘ah denomination, it is obligatory for all Muslims to submit to the wilā’ī edicts issued by the jurist leader, and to comply with his commands and proscriptions. This ruling applies to all eminent mujtahids, let alone their followers! In our opinion, commitment to the authority of the jurist leader is not separable from the commitment to Islam and the authority of the infallible Imams (as).

Salam,

Yes that is his fatwa, but here are some others from the same section. Please take these into consideration also.

Q 61: What is our duty towards those who think that the authority of the jurist leader is restricted only to ḥisbī affairs, given that some of their representatives propagate their belief?

A: The authority of the jurist leader in the realm of the leadership of the Islamic society and governance of social affairs of Muslims in all periods and eras is one of the fundamental beliefs of the true Twelver denomination; as its roots are founded in the principle of Imamate. Whoever is led by reasoning and proof not to accept this notion is excused, but it is not permissible for him to spread disunity and controversy among Muslims.

Q 59: Could someone who does not believe in the absolute authority of the Jurist Leader be considered a true Muslim?

A: The lack of belief, whether based on ijtihād or taqlīd, in the absolute authority of the jurist leader during the period of occultation of the Imam al-Ḥujjah [the 12th Imam] — may our souls be sacrificed for his cause — does not lead to apostasy.

So, in other words, it is his opinion that authority of the Wilayat Al Faqih is such that it is incumbant on all muslims to follow. At the same time, he also says that if you reach the conclusion thru exercise of your own reason and study, that wilayat Al Faqih is more limited, then you are still a muslim and Shia. So he is not saying whoever disagrees with him is kafir or not a muslim and he acknoweldges that there is a difference between the authority of the jurist during the time of ghayibah and after the appearance of the Imam Al Asr(may Allah(s.w.a) hasten his return).

Also, he is a political leader of a country (Iran) and also hold the position of Supreme Jurist. In Iran, the position of political leader and religious leader are combined, and this is the Islamic position. Outside Iran, he is the religious leader and not the political leader and he doesn't attempt to impose penalties or carry out punishments, etc outside the borders of Iran. His position is that the vast majority of people of the world accept the fact that political authority is excersized by a political leader within recognized borders (i.e. the nation-state), so he operates based on this concept. From what I understand, this is not an absolute position, but a relative position based on current circumstances.

Also, with regard to your original point. there are some who are taking action regarding what is going on in Pakistan.

See my thread here ,

http://www.shiachat....c-sat-april-14/

Edited by Abu Hadi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

I am from Parachinar, Pakistan. It has been now 8-9 years since we have problems of road and countinuous fighting and killing. No body have ever taken any notice about this issue. Every week or month we listen some incident happened. It is a total genocide.Spending 9 years under siege is not an easy task. Now people are leaving the country in a very large numbers.

Only 2-3 programmes have been telecasted on TV since these 9 years and no news coverage. Some time when they telecast any they twist it up in favour of terrorists.

For God sake we are 20% of population. Is this a very low figure? It is extremely huge amount of population. Most of Sunni population is with shia in Pakistan but unfortunately they are misguided by media propaganda machine. Together with this population we make more than 50% population.

What are we lacking then?

Don't we have any single person in media? Don't we have any single person in police? Don't we have any single person in top authority? Don't we have any person at top position in millitary? We have but we are cowards. We want to live a few days more.

I believe that Iran should stay away from all this because it has its own very serious problems. And these problems are created in Pakistan just to encircle Iran. It would be a huge blunder by Iran if it by mistakenly interfer in Pakistan's internal affairs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Kismet why don't you tell us your ingenious plan? Is it moving 20 million Shia to a corner and making another country? Or is it calling all Sunnis kafir and starting a civil war? Shias are a minority in Pakistan, the only way you can live decently is with having good relations with the majority. You should be able to come to that conclusion yourself.

And Iran getting involved will just worsen the situation. TIme for you to do things yourself

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

@titumir: What has this to do with anti-WeF? Maybe all they (or anyone) can do is prayers and du'a along with with protest and publicity but that's not the point. I get told pompously on a regular basis the leader of ALL Shi'ah is WeF and the marja system underneath him so I'm now asking the question - what is the leader of the 12ers doing about it?

@pakistanyar: Why are you asking me? I'm not the WeF so my power is limited hence why I'm asking those who blindly preach about it why it's so ineffective and redundant when it's needed.

Good relations with the majority? So what did the people of Gilgit, Karachi et al do or say to the majority to provoke mass killings?

You can't have it both ways and claim there is no national boundary when it comes to 'true' spiritual leadership then bring up national borders as a blocker. It's one thing or the other.

WeF is for Shi'ah like "bring back the caliphate" for the sunnis; absurd, not ordained by Allah and totally unworkable beyond national law, that's why I raised the question.

ALI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope to see responses from those who cry for sunni-shia unity for this.

Why? Most if not all Muslim Governments are nationalistic and have no care for the 'Ummah'. The support given by some Muslim countries isn't always due to reasons of brotherhood or some sense of Islamic duty, but due to more selfish reasons ie. their own national interests.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

You can't have it both ways and claim there is no national boundary when it comes to 'true' spiritual leadership then bring up national borders as a blocker. It's one thing or the other.

ALI

Salam,

You brought up some good points regarding the issue. The only thing I would say is that the argument for WeF in terms of one leader for all muslims is foremost a practical argument. The practical argument is that if all muslims had one leader, we would be a strong, united body able to face our enemies and noone would try to pit us against each other in order to conquer us as is the situation now. In any Shia community anywhere in the world, you have supporters of scholar x and supporters of scholar y and these two groups are always at odds with each other over every little petty issue. In any community where leadership is divided into groups or factions, you see the community is ineffective despite their numbers. Such is the condition of the Shia today. The only reason why the terrorist groups in colusion with the Pakistani govt can slaughter Shia is because the Shia themselves are divided amoung many different factional lines and are thus ineffective. If we were united, they wouldn't dare to do this. That is the practical argument, and it is a strong one, IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, for who ever claims that followers of Welayat Fakih don't are pushing away the fact that Sayed Ali Khamenei is the leader of the Ummah, and he is just the leader of Iran, I think you are pretty wrong my man. The fact is, I'm not from Iran, and Sayed Khamenei is my leader.

Second, does Sayed Khamenei himself have to go to Pakistan and Bahrain and stand between people and make them shake hands for him to show that he is playing his role? Sheikh Issa Kassem is the leader of the Revolution in Bahrain and he himself is a follower of Welayat Fakih.

Sayed Khamenei calls for Unity but if some people aren't following it, what can he do? It means his role is a complete failure? Allah Subhanaho wa Ta'ala has ordered people to become good Muslims. And A LOT aren't following Allahs words, you think people will follow his servant?

Be realistic.

Its funny how people try to find somethings to criticize the Leader.

Its sad at the same time to see how desperate they are, as if he was a kafir that is destroying the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

First, for who ever claims that followers of Welayat Fakih don't are pushing away the fact that Sayed Ali Khamenei is the leader of the Ummah, and he is just the leader of Iran, I think you are pretty wrong my man. The fact is, I'm not from Iran, and Sayed Khamenei is my leader.

Second, does Sayed Khamenei himself have to go to Pakistan and Bahrain and stand between people and make them shake hands for him to show that he is playing his role? Sheikh Issa Kassem is the leader of the Revolution in Bahrain and he himself is a follower of Welayat Fakih.

Sayed Khamenei calls for Unity but if some people aren't following it, what can he do? It means his role is a complete failure? Allah Subhanaho wa Ta'ala has ordered people to become good Muslims. And A LOT aren't following Allahs words, you think people will follow his servant?

Be realistic.

Its funny how people try to find somethings to criticize the Leader.

Its sad at the same time to see how desperate they are, as if he was a kafir that is destroying the world.

Good answer brother. I just want to add one thing.

Leaders are there for your guidance only. He is not your protector in any sense. If you want guidance you are welcome, otherwise there is no compulsion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Salam,

You brought up some good points regarding the issue. The only thing I would say is that the argument for WeF in terms of one leader for all muslims is foremost a practical argument. The practical argument is that if all muslims had one leader, we would be a strong, united body able to face our enemies and noone would try to pit us against each other in order to conquer us as is the situation now. In any Shia community anywhere in the world, you have supporters of scholar x and supporters of scholar y and these two groups are always at odds with each other over every little petty issue. In any community where leadership is divided into groups or factions, you see the community is ineffective despite their numbers. Such is the condition of the Shia today. The only reason why the terrorist groups in colusion with the Pakistani govt can slaughter Shia is because the Shia themselves are divided amoung many different factional lines and are thus ineffective. If we were united, they wouldn't dare to do this. That is the practical argument, and it is a strong one, IMO.

Who is this one leader that you are proposing?

For me, this idea of one leader is hard to swallow because we already have twelve leaders. The last leader for us is still alive. There is no need to make your marja into a global leader when he didn't do anything (for the rest of us Shia) to deserve that position.

The fact of matter is that the Shias in Pakistan have been killed since the last twenty years. It's good that some people have finally realized that Pakistani Shias are also no different that other Muslims that deserve to be helped.

But as you can see, this failure to act for so long has made people mistrust in his leadership. So, maybe you shouldn't promise something that you cannot deliver.

Edited by Gypsy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

^^^

Agree. We're blessed with 12/14 immaculate leaders that not even the staunchest enemy can find fault in yet amazingly (stupidly) we still insist on treading the path of failure by condoning/supporting man-made (religious) leadership; something that goes totally against Quran 4:59, our narrations and a principle the sunnis adopted which we rail against constantly whilst at the same time supporting fervently.

ALI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

^^^

Strong words and even my initial reaction would be in the negative. However, stopping to think this through I'd have to say what you say is more likely to be true.

WeF will not bring it up at govt/national level (even at discussion level let alone diplomatic). The perpetrators of these crimes are sunni (whilst the govt remains silent) and the clamour is all about unity so I think you're right, they're more likely to side with the govt than the poor people who pledge allegiance to WeF/marja but when they really needed them they were impotent and silent.

And before excitable children get on their high horse remind me; how many times Iran has defied international 'laws' and been busted sending weapons/kit to the extremist sunni militants in Palestine?

The WeF is the same (worse) for Shi'ah than the Pope is for Catholics or the Chief Rabbi for Jews...

ALI

Edited by Kismet110
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Instead of criticizing the Wali al Faqih for things you don't have a clue about, why don't you tell us, what have the anti-Welayat Faqih leaders done to the Muslim world, and how they have helped the Islamic Ummah, or Shia or whatever it is, to go forward in life? How have they helped the oppressed Shia and Muslims?

Other than that, just shut up and stop nagging.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

I would say br, keep your Iman and dignity, you will be in the ranks of Salman, Miqdad, and Abu Dhar Al Ghafari.

We are demonstrating this weekend at the Pakistani Embassy in Washington D.C. against what is going on in your area.

We have, at this minute, over 500(confirmed) brothers and sisters coming from all over the country to demonstrate,

many are not Pakistani but sincere followers of Ahl Al Bayt who refuse to be silent over this situation any longer..

Some have to ride on a bus more than 24 hours to get there. InshahAllah others will join.

Edited by Abu Hadi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Instead of criticizing the Wali al Faqih for things you don't have a clue about, why don't you tell us, what have the anti-Welayat Faqih leaders done to the Muslim world, and how they have helped the Islamic Ummah, or Shia or whatever it is, to go forward in life? How have they helped the oppressed Shia and Muslims?

Other than that, just shut up and stop nagging.

Every single time you've written something on this forum it's been like reading the incoherent ramblings of a 9 year old and this post is no different. If you can't fathom the subject at hand then please either ask someone or refrain from commenting as it's a little embarassing.

It is extremely embarrassing that we are fighting over such a minor issue.

Look at Christians, they have much better organized system than you. If leadership is so much divided in Islam than how is it better in any sense than any other religion.

If you divide leadership, you will further divide your religion. Can't you understand such a simple logic.

We follow Imam khamenei because we can not understand all matters of religion. This matter is such a case which you don't understand.

I am from Parachinar and there you will find lots of the people who are still ready to be killed for their rahber, Despite all these atrocities which have committed against us. We have lost our family members in this fight, and have not even said a word against our rahber. We love rahber more than ever. I don't know what have you lost?

Right brother, but don't you see that's my point exactly? If this leadership were legitimate and it had any value beyond a facade then your leader would be OBLIGATED to act on your behalf regardless of the consequences.

And who's talking about a divided leadership? My point is there is NO leadership. just empty rhetoric and strange, teenie sycophants putting up posters of clerics where there Western equivalents put up posters of actors and suchlike.

I've bolded the sadded part. You say you're willing to die for a distant fallible who doesn't even speak up on your behalf?

Maula protect the true Shi'ah.

ALI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...