Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
AdeL23

Are Sunnis Muslims

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

As stated shias beieve that Sunnis are Muslims. However, the issue of paradise is another question.

According to shias, if you have been brought clear evidence of the imamate of ahlul bayt and still reject it, you are a kafir worthy of hell fire for all of eternity. Now, unless I'm mistaken, this means that you have accepted in your heart the imamate but still reject it outwardly, out of pride and arrogance. Although I don't know why anyone would do that. Maybe it's like the example of, if you have accepted Islam in your heart but still practice your old religion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As stated shias beieve that Sunnis are Muslims. However, the issue of paradise is another question.

According to shias, if you have been brought clear evidence of the imamate of ahlul bayt and still reject it, you are a kafir worthy of hell fire for all of eternity. Now, unless I'm mistaken, this means that you have accepted in your heart the imamate but still reject it outwardly, out of pride and arrogance. Although I don't know why anyone would do that. Maybe it's like the example of, if you have accepted Islam in your heart but still practice your old religion.

Hell or Heaven is for one sect or another. Let's leave the judgement up to Allah swt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sunnis' are Muslim, just not rightly guided. They almost know how to pray, the know some sunnah, the read Qur'an and the know somethings about the Holy Prophet (pbuh). The are wonderful candidates to become Shia and follow the Ahlulbayt (as) to receive the guidance that we want for all mankind (inshallah).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

The akhbar from the Imams of Guidance (as) have made it clear that even non-Shi'a, non-Imamis, will make it into Paradise by Allah (swt)'s mercy provided they were confused about Khilafa, did not hold enmity towards the Ahlulbayt or were generally ignorant simpletons regarding it. Something like this. No Nasb, loving Ahlulbayt (as), and sincerely trying to please Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì. This however does not excuse one from giving up on their search for the truth.

في أمانه

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

Sigh. Please do not give bad answers.

A muslim is someone who believes in the 2 Testimonies (لا اله الا الله ومحمد رسول الله) and does not deny any of the zaruriyaat al-deen or their wujoob (i.e. salaah, zakaah, hajj, belief in Qiyamah, nabuwah, Tawheed). Also that they are not ghulaat (shirk in making a human divine or equal to Allah [swt]) or nawasib (open enemy of Ahlulbayt).

So, yes, Sunnis are Muslim and there is no debate about that.

في امانه

ok.... there are five pillars of Islam

1. the shahada

2. Salat

3. Zakat

4. FAsting

5. Hajj

and 6 pillars of faith

1. Belief in Allah

2. His books

3. His Angels,

4. His Messengers

5. the Day of Judgment

6. and Qadr of Allah

is there anything in here any of you don't agree with?

As stated shias beieve that Sunnis are Muslims. However, the issue of paradise is another question.

According to shias, if you have been brought clear evidence of the imamate of ahlul bayt and still reject it, you are a kafir worthy of hell fire for all of eternity. Now, unless I'm mistaken, this means that you have accepted in your heart the imamate but still reject it outwardly, out of pride and arrogance. Although I don't know why anyone would do that. Maybe it's like the example of, if you have accepted Islam in your heart but still practice your old religion.

say what? When i say MUSLIM i mean someone who is able to go to Paradise (in that context) ok... so ?

Sunnis' are Muslim, just not rightly guided. They almost know how to pray, the know some sunnah, the read Qur'an and the know somethings about the Holy Prophet (pbuh). The are wonderful candidates to become Shia and follow the Ahlulbayt (as) to receive the guidance that we want for all mankind (inshallah).

may Allah guide you

(bismillah)

The akhbar from the Imams of Guidance (as) have made it clear that even non-Shi'a, non-Imamis, will make it into Paradise by Allah (swt)'s mercy provided they were confused about Khilafa, did not hold enmity towards the Ahlulbayt or were generally ignorant simpletons regarding it. Something like this. No Nasb, loving Ahlulbayt (as), and sincerely trying to please Allah سبحانه وتعالى. This however does not excuse one from giving up on their search for the truth.

في أمانه

so you still consider sunnis Muslims? Well how do you verify that you are on the truth? if someone told you to prove the Imamite then do you know how to answer? (don't tell me im just asking yes or no)

As stated shias beieve that Sunnis are Muslims. However, the issue of paradise is another question.

According to shias, if you have been brought clear evidence of the imamate of ahlul bayt and still reject it, you are a kafir worthy of hell fire for all of eternity. Now, unless I'm mistaken, this means that you have accepted in your heart the imamate but still reject it outwardly, out of pride and arrogance. Although I don't know why anyone would do that. Maybe it's like the example of, if you have accepted Islam in your heart but still practice your old religion.

but if someone got proof that the concept of Imamah was wrong would you reject that evidence and go with your desire, or be proud and boastful?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

ok.... there are five pillars of Islam

...

and 6 pillars of faith

...

is there anything in here any of you don't agree with?

No, we do not disagree with any of these, they are fundamental to being a Muslim.

so you still consider sunnis Muslims? Well how do you verify that you are on the truth? if someone told you to prove the Imamite then do you know how to answer? (don't tell me im just asking yes or no)

When were Sunnis ever considered not Muslim? I verify that I am on the truth through the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Holy Messenger (pbuh) as preserved by the Imams from his `Itrah (as) and using my `aql when taking in the information from Revelation to understand them. Yes, the idea of Walayah and Imamah can be proven. I may have to sit down and find all the verses and narrations concerning it, but I could do it, with His permission. There are many books on it if you'd like to read them.

في أمان الله تعالى

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kitab at-Taharah” vol 2, p 87 said:

فالصحيح الحكم بطهارة جميع المخالفين للشيعة الاثنى عشرية واسلامهم ظاهرا بلا فرق في ذلك بين أهل الخلاف وبين غيرهم وان كان جميعهم في الحقيقة كافرين وهم الذين سميناهم بمسلم الدنيا وكافر الآخرة.

“And saheeh that all opposition to shia isna ashariya are pure, and their Islam is outward, and there is no difference between people of opposition and others, and in real all of them are disbelievers, and they are from people, that called moslem in this world, and (would be call) disbelievers in doomsday”.

Can any brother please explain who is Ayatollah calling disbelievers, sunnis are saying that he is referring to them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

but if someone got proof that the concept of Imamah was wrong would you reject that evidence and go with your desire, or be proud and boastful?

Here's the thing. I don't think it's easy to prove the Imami (12er) Imamate to a Sunni. It's just like an Ismaili shia trying to prove their Imamate to an Imami. Ismaili shias have a different line of imams after the 6th, Jafar ibn Muhammad RA.

If a 12'er shia were to bring to you any evidence (hadiths or tafsirs of a shia scholar) and you still reject the 12'er imamate, from their perspective, Allah SWT still might forgive you, because you are confused about imamate or have weak faith. This is what they say about most Sunnis.

According to 12'er Shias (and correct me if I'm wrong), only someone who accepts in their heart and realizes that the 12 imams according to 12er's are correct, but you still reject it outwardly and in practice, then you are doomed to hellfire. Which again, I don't really understand.

Here's the thing, according to shias, the Imams from Ahlul Bayt were in taqqiyah most of the time, information doesn't move freely like it does now to extended parts of the world, and there were many splinter groups among the shia (a lot of which aren't in existence today).... so for the people in those times, who lived in those times, I can imagine they know that many people were confused about the identity of true successors of the Prophet SAWS.

On a note, I think someone were to look at Sunni Literature hard enough, I think it's a different story with the superiority of Ali, Hassan, Hossayn RAA.

Kitab at-Taharah” vol 2, p 87 said:

فالصحيح الحكم بطهارة جميع المخالفين للشيعة الاثنى عشرية واسلامهم ظاهرا بلا فرق في ذلك بين أهل الخلاف وبين غيرهم وان كان جميعهم في الحقيقة كافرين وهم الذين سميناهم بمسلم الدنيا وكافر الآخرة.

“And saheeh that all opposition to shia isna ashariya are pure, and their Islam is outward, and there is no difference between people of opposition and others, and in real all of them are disbelievers, and they are from people, that called moslem in this world, and (would be call) disbelievers in doomsday”.

Can any brother please explain who is Ayatollah calling disbelievers, sunnis are saying that he is referring to them?

Good question

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

Kitab at-Taharah” vol 2, p 87 said:

فالصحيح الحكم بطهارة جميع المخالفين للشيعة الاثنى عشرية واسلامهم ظاهرا بلا فرق في ذلك بين أهل الخلاف وبين غيرهم وان كان جميعهم في الحقيقة كافرين وهم الذين سميناهم بمسلم الدنيا وكافر الآخرة.

“And saheeh that all opposition to shia isna ashariya are pure, and their Islam is outward, and there is no difference between people of opposition and others, and in real all of them are disbelievers, and they are from people, that called moslem in this world, and (would be call) disbelievers in doomsday”.

Can any brother please explain who is Ayatollah calling disbelievers, sunnis are saying that he is referring to them?

I believe it is talking about the Hereafter ("in real"). They are treated as Muslims in this world and attain those rights, but they are not Mumin, so they are not Believers in the Hereafter, either. You die as a Muslim, and may such people be ignorant and among those Allah (swt) has mercy on and admits into Paradise as the Imams [as] have described.

في أمانه تعالى

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

Whoever purposely denies the truth of ahlulbayt (as) and still follows his desires, then they are kafir. Anyone who abused ahlulbayt (as) during their time are najis and kafir.

There are many non-shias who do not know the truth and aren't knowledgeable to distinguish. But it really depends on their niyyat.

Edited by Labbayk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

say what? When i say MUSLIM i mean someone who is able to go to Paradise (in that context) ok... so ?

Being Muslim is just a religion.. but your question as if they go to heaven or not depends on their actions and intentions.. there could be muslims shia that can be going to hell because they are not doing as they were suppose to .. and there could be sunnis that are unaware of the true path.. but yet there intention is to go with only the truth.. and is not one of those ppl who know the truth and deny it...thn im sure god is the all merciful for those..

so know one can really judge who goes to hell or heaven.. only Allah swt.. May we all be on the path of the truth..:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(8:46) {وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَلَا تَنَازَعُوا فَتَفْشَلُوا وَتَذْهَبَ رِيحُكُمْ وَاصْبِرُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ}

{And obey Allah and His Messenger and do not quarrel for then you will be weak in hearts and your power will depart, and be patient; surely Allah is with the patient.} (8:46)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Dar'ul Islam

I believe it is talking about the Hereafter ("in real"). They are treated as Muslims in this world and attain those rights, but they are not Mumin, so they are not Believers in the Hereafter, either. You die as a Muslim, and may such people be ignorant and among those Allah (swt) has mercy on and admits into Paradise as the Imams [as] have described.

Just adding to what you said & further clarifying what the scholar said, I got a beautiful long answer from another brother (May Allah swt bless him), I would just like to quote in short what he said:

What Ayatullah khoei was actual referring to is the mukhalifeen if you read in arabic, meaning those who oppose/reject the wilayat will be disbelievers in the hereafter as we do have narrations in our books that say whoever rejects our wilayat will be raised as a jew/christian in the hereafter.

This does not mean that sunnis are not considered muslims, of course they are but if they oppose/reject wilayat after it has been made clear to them (by doing their research/analysis) then they will be raised as disbelievers. So this only applies to those people that are not Jahil in these matters.

This however does not apply to all of them, as you are aware that we consider the sunnis as ignorant, due to their research not being comprehensive etc only the nasibis amongst sunnis who oppose the Imamate are definitely hellbound. Jahils will face judgement from Allah swt & will be judged according to that it doesn't mean sunnis will be raised as disbelievers in general.

If any brother wants to correct or add in what I've said then be my guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

Sigh. Please do not give bad answers.

A muslim is someone who believes in the 2 Testimonies (لا اله الا الله ومحمد رسول الله) and does not deny any of the zaruriyaat al-deen or their wujoob (i.e. salaah, zakaah, hajj, belief in Qiyamah, nabuwah, Tawheed). Also that they are not ghulaat (shirk in making a human divine or equal to Allah [swt]) or nawasib (open enemy of Ahlulbayt).

So, yes, Sunnis are Muslim and there is no debate about that.

في امانه

All the points you have stated are believed by Qadiani. DO you believe that Qadianis are Muslim!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nazm:

All the points you have stated are believed by Qadiani. DO you believe that Qadianis are Muslim!!!!

Ayubi786:

Qadianis believe mirza ghulam is or was the mahdi and that NABUWWAH can be carried on AFTER THE LAST PROPHET SAWS!!

Now...i can.....say that is more close to your belief the shia belief

the scholars of PAKISTAN where this guy came from have declared them OUT OF TH FOLD OF ISLAM AND THAT FATWA WAS DELIVERED BY SUNNI MUSLIMS I AINT HEARD A SHIA FATWA YET!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

Nazm:

All the points you have stated are believed by Qadiani. DO you believe that Qadianis are Muslim!!!!

Ayubi786:

Qadianis believe mirza ghulam is or was the mahdi and that NABUWWAH can be carried on AFTER THE LAST PROPHET SAWS!!

Now...i can.....say that is more close to your belief the shia belief

the scholars of PAKISTAN where this guy came from have declared them OUT OF TH FOLD OF ISLAM AND THAT FATWA WAS DELIVERED BY SUNNI MUSLIMS I AINT HEARD A SHIA FATWA YET!!

Belief in the end of Nubuwwa is part of the necessities of faith, so no, they are not considered Muslims. And just for your information, the Shi'a `ulema of Pakistan were heavily involved, more so than Sunnis, in the declaration of the Qadiyani/Ahmadi movement as outside the fold of Islam.

في امانه

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

Belief in the end of Nubuwwa is part of the necessities of faith, so no, they are not considered Muslims. And just for your information, the Shi'a `ulema of Pakistan were heavily involved, more so than Sunnis, in the declaration of the Qadiyani/Ahmadi movement as outside the fold of Islam.

في امانه

Perhaps you have not got my point. The points you made i.e La Ilaha illah Allah Muhammadur Rasulullah ( As we know from Hadeeth) and other points to identify a man muslim is not enough, becoz if so then Qadianis also agree with all those points.

Rather we need something else "added" so that we can exclude qadiani and bahais out of fold of Islam.

i.e that We need the clear cut Qalima which gives meaning of abolish of Nabuwat and commencing somthing, i.e belayat As the qalima of Shia " La Ilaha illa Allah muhammadur rasul Allah wa Aliun waliullah."

The last part of the Qalima is so important to make a decision and distinguish among the true claimant of Khatamun Nabuya and others.

Hope you have understand.

Nazm:

All the points you have stated are believed by Qadiani. DO you believe that Qadianis are Muslim!!!!

Ayubi786:

Qadianis believe mirza ghulam is or was the mahdi and that NABUWWAH can be carried on AFTER THE LAST PROPHET SAWS!!

Now...i can.....say that is more close to your belief the shia belief

the scholars of PAKISTAN where this guy came from have declared them OUT OF TH FOLD OF ISLAM AND THAT FATWA WAS DELIVERED BY SUNNI MUSLIMS I AINT HEARD A SHIA FATWA YET!!

I think you are a jalil, You do not know them but saying lots of things out of mind! Qadianis believe Mirza is Prophet! The only Pakistani Qadianis say Mirza Gulam Ahmad is Mahdi Becoz of fear of persecution.

Yah Jalil! It was a shia Alim Maulana Ismail Ex Deobandi who debated with them in Pakistani Qaumi council Parliament and convinced the lawmaker to pass bill declaring them as kafir. As always sunnis give are expert to give Fatwah sitting in bed !!

Watch the last Part Its very Interesting !!

Edited by ___NAZM___

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nazm:

I think you are a jalil, You do not know them but saying lots of things out of mind! Qadianis believe Mirza is Prophet! The only Pakistani Qadianis say Mirza Gulam Ahmad is Mahdi Becoz of fear of persecution.

Yah Jalil! It was a shia Alim Maulana Ismail Ex Deobandi who debated with them in Pakistani Qaumi council Parliament and convinced the lawmaker to pass bill declaring them as kafir. As always sunnis give are expert to give Fatwah sitting in bed !!

Watch the last Part Its very Interesting !!

Ayubi786:

Ya jalil? Or jahil chill man any way like i keep saying in this forum I DONT DO YOUTUBE VIDS!! If you wanna listen to him you can but it doesnt prove anything WE NEED HARD FACTS

By the way iam doing this in bed kasmey!!

Anyway i will post you The amendment that led to them being banned and hey....guess what....there is NO MENTION OF YOUR SHIA ALIM!!!

Bismillah ar-Rehman ar-Raheem

Pakistani Constitutional Amendments of 1974

Declaring Qadianis as a non-Muslim Minority

by

Dr. Syed Rashid Ali

Events that led to the Constitutional Amendments

declaring Qadianis to be non-Muslim Minorities

Bhutto becomes the Prime Minister

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto became the elected Prime Minister of Pakistan in the election of 1970 and Qadianis hoped to get a good reward for their unflinching support to the Pakistan Peoples Party in this election and for their loyalty to Bhutto. Following elections many PPP MNAs and MPAs visited Rabwah and got good reception at the Qasr-e-Khilafat. Khuddamul Ahmadiyya organised parties and contributed funds for the PPP public meetings. Qadiani students joined PPP led student federations to check the activities of Jamiat-e-Tulaba, the student wing of Jamaat-e-Islami. A powerful group among the bureaucracy and the military extended support to Rabwah to win its favours for future promotions (many high ranking army officers and civil servants belonged to the Jamaat). The leading anti-Qadiani groups and organisations operating in the country were suppressed and their activities curbed to appease Qadianis. Mirza Nasir (3rd Khalifa) was happy over his political bargain. He declared that majority of Muslims had accepted Qadiani point of view over the vital religious issues. In Saeed House Abbottabad, he declared that majority of people had accepted our interpretation on the belief of the death of Jesus Christ and Khatme Nabuwwat (AlFazl Rabwah, 30th June 1972) After an year he claimed that 70-80% people especially the young generation of Pakistan had come to believe that Ahmadis were not non-believers in Khatme Nabuwwat. Like the issue of Jesus' death, the issue of Khatam-i-Nabuwwat would finish in the next five or seven years, he predicted. (AlFazl Rabwah, 28th July 1973)

Oil crisis hit badly the Western world in late 1973 and it was deemed necessary to check any move meant to forge a common front against western powers. In February 1974, Bhutto announced the convening of Islamic Summit in Pakistan. It baffled Rabwah. The leading role of Saudi Arabia in the summit was a red rag to the Qadiani bull. Mirza Tahir says that Saudi King Faisal aspired to be the Khalifa of the Muslim world. Thus the fate of Faisal was sealed. He was murdered by his Americanised nephew. However an Anti Ahmadiyya movement was launched on the eve of Islamic Summit and lot of literature was distributed among the Muslim delegates.

These events created an atmosphere of mistrust between PPP and Rabwah. However they still enjoyed the support of several key figures of the ruling party. Mirza nasir continued to recieve PPP stalwarts in his palace in Rabwah and firmly believed that no harm can ever come to his community. From time to time, he ordered heads of different Ahmadiyya organisations to put up stiff resistance against the attacks of his opponents and preach Ahmadiyya creed in a fearless way. "How could you celebrate the centenary of Ahmadiyyat in a befitting manner if you did not prove your worth," he once advised his followers in a private meeting. All this contributed to the aggressive mood of the community. (Ahmadiyya Movement - British-Jewish Connection by Bashir Ahmad p.405)

The Rabwah Incident

In a bid to show their muscles to their opponents, Qadiani belligerents attacked the students of Nishter Medical College, Multan, when they came back from an excursion trip and passed through Rabwah on 29th May 1974. Qadianis carried sticks and light arms. Fifty students were badly injured with 13 in critical conditions. (Daily Jasarat, Karachi, 31st May 1974). It was a pre-planned affair and Mirza Nasir and Mirza Tahir were behind the game.

Qadiani Goondaism unleashed violent reaction all over Pakistan. Although Hanif Ramay, the Chief Minister of Punjab, issued stern warnings to law breakers yet the demonstrators paid no heed to it. Mr. Justice K A Samdani, a High Court Judge was appointed to hold an inquiry into the Rabwah incident. In the Punjab Assembly the leaders of the opposition moved adjournment motion but the speaker disallowed it on the ground that the matter was subjudice. (Pakistan Times, Rawalpindi, 3 May 1974)

Bhutto appealed to the people to wait for the results of the Tribunal but the movement continued unabetted. The opposition leaders in the National Assembly made stern efforts to move an adjournment motion on Rabwah incident without any success. The assembly devoted most of the time to procedural debate on the admissibility of such a motion. To check the rising movement, many religious and political leaders were arrested under the DPR (Defense of Pakistan Rules) and public meetings declared unlawful. (Daily Kohistan, Lahore, 10 May 1974) The Government used repressive measures to find an excuse to revive 1953 macabre drama to shelve the issue. People bore all hardships with fortitude to carry out the movement in a peaceful manner.

Everyone knew that the man behind the Qadiani goondaism was Mirza Nasir, the Government was however reluctant to arrest him. He filed a petition for bail before arrest in Lahore High Court. He was associated with the investigation into Rabwah incident. (Pakistan Times, Rawalpindi, 7 June 1974)

Samdani Tribunal

Meanwhile Justice Samdani Tribunal was conducting its investigations. The statements of the witnesses who appeared before the Samdani Tribunal appointed to investigate the causes of the Rabwah incident gave an awful picture of Qadiyaniyat hitherto less known to the world. Muhammad Saleh Noor, a Qadiani dissident deposed:

Khuddamul Ahmadiyya is military organisation of Ahmadis. It believes that the Jamaat will soon hold the rein of power.

Qadiani officials are instructed by the Khalifa to manage jobs through all legal or illegal means for Ahmadis.

In Africa, Ghulam Ahmad is projected as a prophet Ahmad.

There existed in Rabwah an organisation called Furqan Force. the witness had been a member of this force and it took part in hostilities in Kashmir in 1947. General Gracey had later disbanded this organisation. The arms and ammunition recieved by Furqan force were sent to Wahga through a military wagon and buried near Mahmud 'Mosque'. Volunteers had been posted to guard the arms and ammunitions.

Ahmadis have a mission in Israel. It is located in Haifa. It is under Tehreek Jadid and Mirza Mahmud was the Chief of that Department. Those who went to Israel from Pakistan had double passports. They went to an African country on a Pakistani passport adn there issued the other passport to go to Israel. The other passport was kept by them secretly. No Jews have been converted to Islam. (Pakistan Times 28 June 1974)

International Propaganda Campaign

At the hieght of mass protests and movement, entire Qadiani propaganda machinery was actively engaged in mustering international support. Mirza Nasir gave interview to Associated Press of America in which he alleged:

"I am convinced that due to many reasons Prime Minister Bhutto's PPP has engineered the riots. One reason is that PPP wants to prop up its crumbling prestige by winning over the support of the extremists of other sects."

Sir Zafarullah Khan Qadiani alleged that when their properties were being burnt by rioters, Federal Security Forces stood by as silent spectators. (Daily Jasarat, Karachi, 28 June 1974; B A Rafiq From the World Press)

On the basis of propaganda line given by Mirza Nasir and Qadiani Missions abroad, foreign press ascribed the Rabwah incident to Bhutto and Shah Faisal's policy to 'excommunicate ahmadis'. The Economist stated:

"Several months ago when an Ahmadi was fired as Chief of Staff of Air Force. This said to have turned the Ahmadis against Bhutto and now cited by conspirational minded Pakistan as one of the motivations, the Prime Minister may have had for inciting the riots himself. Another such incentive may have been provided by Pakistan's oil-rich Muslim brother; King Faisal is said to have urged Mr Bhutto at the Islamic Summit in Lahore last February to deal with Ahmadis and even to have made Arab aid contingent on a solution of the Ahmadi problem. A follow up Muslim meeting at Jeddah in March pronounced the Ahmadis non-Muslims, with the Pakistan delegation reluctantly acceding. Pakistan's religious parties have been stepping up anti Ahmadiyya propaganda ever since. " (The Economist London 15 June 1974)

As part of Ahmadiyya malicious propaganda against Pakistan, Sir Zafarullah Khan help a press conference on 5th June 1974 in London. He explained that the present trouble began when about 150 students from Nishtar Medical College at Multan had been passing by train through Rabwah, the headquarters of the community. They shouted slogans and obscenities at Ahmadis. There were similar demonstration by the students when the train returned a week later but this time they were greeted with violent reaction and some of them were hurt. (The Times London 7 June 1974)

Zafarullah Khan invited the attention of International community to the so-called persecution of Ahmadis in the Punjab and appealed to Amnesty INternational, International Red Cross, Human Rights Commission, International Commission of Jurists, public welfare bodies like OXFAM to go to Pakistan and help 'suffering' ahmadis. He wrote to UN Secretary General Kurt Waldhiem to send observers to Pakistan.

Similarly Jamaat Ahmadiyya Missions in US, UK, Nigeria and other countries met high placed Government officials to apprise them of the situation in Pakistan. British MPs expressed their sympathies for Ahmadis victims. Washington Post carried front page article sympathetic to Ahmadis and blatantly insulting to the people of Pakistan and Muslims in general. (Al-Islam USA 30 Sept 1974)

Governemnt of Pakistan deplored the tendency of a section of international press to distort and caricature internal happenings in Pakistan. Pakistan Times in its leading article refuted all absurd charges levelled by Ahmadiyya Missionaries and informed that the Prime Minister Bhutto had talks with delegates of all the interested groups. The son of the religious head of Ahmadiyya was among them who met the Prime Minister. The Provincial governments were kept in touch with the leaders of Ahmadiyya community as well as other groups involved in the controversy. It deplored the malicious propaganda of Ahmadiyya foreign missions and condenmed their anti-Pakistan statements. The paper questioned:

"We are not sure to what extent Pakistan foreign accusers have been influenced by the statements of Mirza Nasir Ahmad and Sir Zafarullah. but it is clear that by lapping up whatever was said by these gentlemen, they acted in fairness neither to them nor to Pakistan. Similarly the worthy spokesmen of Ahmadiyya community have only harmed their own cause by securing for foreign help against their own government and rendered themselves liable to the charge that they care more for their international connections than their loyalty to the land where they have enjoyed extraordinary facillities and privileges. Indeed they are more guilty of sullying the image of their country than their friends abroad." (Pakistan Times 25 June 1974)

Link - an Indian news magazine made following comments on Zafarullah's press conference in London:

"His recent press conference in London to malign the Government of Pakistan in Rabwah incident is part of a bigger scheme. one readily wonders where this Judge of International Court os justice was when Indians massaccred the members of the Muslim minority in more than three thousand communal riots till today.

Zafarullah Khan in his press conference in London said that at least 20 persons were killed in Rabwah and therefore he sought the intervention of Amnesty International and Commision for Human Rights and the International Red Cross. For people in Pakistan, who are in the know of full facts, this was a bolt from the bue and a stab in the back. A gross exaggeration of the whole incident. Zafarullah played well to the tunes of his masters. Let us all try to identify his masters. you will find them in Washington, in London, in Delhi and now most probably willing connivers in Moscow as well." (Link India, 23 june 1974; B A Rafiq, From the World Press, London p.114)

Despite mass protests, Bhutto continued his partisan attitude and support to Qadianis. He tried to put all the blame on some foreign hands. Opposition wanted Bhutto to come to brass tacks because he had showered many blessings on the Qadianis, particularly their large scale appointments to sensitive military posts. For instance two of the three military chiefs belonged to Qadiani community.

Government takes the Qadiani Issue to Elected Representatives

Bowing to the public pressure, on 30th June 1974, the Government announced to place the entire matter before the National Assembly of Pakistan in the form of two resolutions. One of the resolutions was sponsored by the Government and tabled by the then Law Minister, Abdul Hafeez Pirzada. The other resolution wassponsored by the opposition and moved by Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani, Secretary Parliamentary group of the Opposition. The resolution of the opposition was signed by 37 members of opposition including Maulana Abdul Haq, Sher Baz Mazari, Prof. Ghafoor Ahmed, and Haji Maula Bux Soomro.

The Government resolution related to the determination of the Constitutional position of Qadianis while the resolution of opposition was more exhaustive in nature over the position of Qadianis. It said:

"Whereas it is an accepted fact that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian proclaimed to be prophet after Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon Him) and whereas his false proclamation of being a prophet and his attempt to falsify many of the verses of Quran and to end the conception of Jehad was a treachery against the fundamental concept of Islam.

And whereas the followers of his religion may have any name given to them, intermix with the Muslims, pretending to be a sect of Islam. this they are busy in subversive activities inwardly and outwardly.

And whereas the World Muslim Organisation in its meeting held between 6 and 10 April 1974 at Makkah in which 140 Muslim organisations of the Muslim World took part, decided unitedly that Qadianism which calls itself a sect of Islam is a subversive movement against Islam and the Islamic world.

Now therefore this Assembly should declare that the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, may they be given any name, are non-Muslims and that a Government bill may be introduced to make necessary amendments in the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan so that this declaration of this non-Muslim minority may be safeguarded. (The Message International, Karachi, June-July 1984)

Both resolutions were referred by the National Assembly to the Whole House Special Committee for discussing them in detail and finally to submit its report to the National Assembly.

The Whole House Special Committee set up a Select Committee comprising of leaders of various groups in the Assembly. Perhaps it was a Divine Will that all the leaders of various religious and political parties were elected members of the Parliament. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani (JUP), Prof. Ghafoor Ahmed (JI), Maulana Mufti Mahmood (JUI) Chaudhery Zahoor Ilahi (ML) and Maula Bux Soomro (Independent group) represented the opposition in the Special Committee while the Government nominated Abdul Hafeez Pirzada (Law Minister) and Kauser Niazi (Minister of Information and Religious Affairs) to represent the government point of view. Both the House Committee and the Select Committee began their work with devotion.

Mirza Nasir Ahmad Qadiani, head of Qadiani group and Sadruddin, Amir of Lahori group requested the Committee to hear them in defense. The Committee accepted their request and asked them to explain fully their point of view. Mirza Nasir submitted a written explanation of about 200 pages and was examined and cross-examined by Yahya Bukhtiar, the then Attorney General(AG) of Pakistan. The questions asked by the AG were prepared by the members of the Committee especially the ulemas. Sadruddin designated Abdul Mannan Omer, a senior member of the community and son of Hakim Nuruddin to represent the Lahore section. He gave his jamaat's stand in a 14 page memorandum and was cross examined two days. Muslim point of view on the Qadiani issue was presented to the Assembly by 37 members of the National Assembly. Maulana Sami-ul-Haq, editor of the monthly Al Haq Akora Khattak and Maulana Muhammad Taqi Usmani, Karachi, under the guidance of Maulana Binori compiled the paper. It was read out by Maulana Mufti Mahmud in the Assembly. (Qadianism on Trial by Wali Muhammad Razi)

Sahibzada Farooq Ali, the then Speaker of the National Assembly revealed in an interview to the Jang that the members of the National Assembly acted in accordance with their faith and conscience to find a solution to the Qadiani problem. There was absolutely no pressure from the (Peoples) party on them. Bhutto and some members of Assembly believed that Qadianis were an educated class and would be in a better position to put forth the arguments in support of their contention. but Mirza Nasir Ahmad gave extremely ridiculous arguments and created poor impression of himself. During the cross examinations, he withstood the volley of questions but miserably failed to present his point of view. that conclusively proved that beliefs of Rabwah Jamaat were really dangerous.

Sahibzada further said:

"We were under the impression that unlike Qadianis, Lahore section of Ahmadiyyat could possibly be saved from being declared a non-Muslim minority as they did not believe in the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. But when Sadruddin, the aged leader of Lahore Jamaat presented his point of view to the Housem it became evident that each Ahmadiyya sect upheld dangerous and confused ideas. During the discussion when we asked the opinion of the House, majority of MNAs strongly maintained that Lahore Jamaat deserved to be declared a non-Muslim minority in the first instance. We did try to save them but there was no scope for it. It transpired that there was little doctrinal differences between the two groups, the real difference was political in nature. It was also felt that Sadruddin himself greatly desired that Lahore Jamaat should be declared non-Muslim minority. He was convinced that his arguments run contrary to his point of view." (Sahibzada Farooq Ali's interview, Jang Magazine, cited in Ahmadiyya Movement, British-Jewsih Connection by Bashir Ahmad)

Unanimous Report

The Committee of the Whole Hose of the National Assembly of Pakistan submitted its unanimous report as follows:

The Special Committee of the Whole House, assisted by its Steering Committee and Sub-Committee, having considered the resolutions before it or referred to it by the National Assembly and after perusal of the documents ad examination of witnesses, including heads of Anjuman Ahmadiyya Rabwah and Ahmadiyya Anjuman Ishaat-e-Islam Lahore, respectively, unanimously makes the following recommendations to the National Assembly:

a) That the Constitution of Pakistan be amended as follows:

i) that in Article 106(3) a reference be inserted to persons of the Qadiani Group and the Lahore Group (who call themselves Ahmadis);

ii) that a non-Muslim may be defined in a new clause in Article 260

To give effect to the above recommendations, a draft Bill unanimously agreed upon by the Special Committee is appended:

B) That the following explanation be added to section 295A of the Pakistan Penal Code:

Explanation: A Muslim who professes, practices or propagates against the concept of the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon Him) as set out in clause (3) of Article 260 of the Constitution shall be punishable under this section.

c) That consequential legislative and procedural amendments may be made in the relevant laws such as National Registration Act, 1973 and the Electoral Rolls Rules, 1974.

d) That the life, liberty, property, honour and fundamental rights of all citizens of Pakistan, irrespective of the communities to which they belong, shall be fully protected and safeguarded.

Signed:

Abdul Hafeez Pirzada

Maulana Mufti Mahmud

Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani

Prof. Ghafoor Ahmed

Ghulam Faruq

Ch. Zahur Elahi

Sardar Maula Bukhsh Soomro

I found this laying in bed!! Lolz

May Allah swt guide us on the true path

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nazm:

I think you are a jalil, You do not know them but saying lots of things out of mind! Qadianis believe Mirza is Prophet! The only Pakistani Qadianis say Mirza Gulam Ahmad is Mahdi Becoz of fear of persecution.

Yah Jalil! It was a shia Alim Maulana Ismail Ex Deobandi who debated with them in Pakistani Qaumi council Parliament and convinced the lawmaker to pass bill declaring them as kafir. As always sunnis give are expert to give Fatwah sitting in bed !!

Watch the last Part Its very Interesting !!

Ayubi786:

Ya jalil? Or jahil chill man any way like i keep saying in this forum I DONT DO YOUTUBE VIDS!! If you wanna listen to him you can but it doesnt prove anything WE NEED HARD FACTS

By the way iam doing this in bed kasmey!!

Anyway i will post you The amendment that led to them being banned and hey....guess what....there is NO MENTION OF YOUR SHIA ALIM!!!

Bismillah ar-Rehman ar-Raheem

Pakistani Constitutional Amendments of 1974

Declaring Qadianis as a non-Muslim Minority

by

Dr. Syed Rashid Ali

Events that led to the Constitutional Amendments

declaring Qadianis to be non-Muslim Minorities

Bhutto becomes the Prime Minister

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto became the elected Prime Minister of Pakistan in the election of 1970 and Qadianis hoped to get a good reward for their unflinching support to the Pakistan Peoples Party in this election and for their loyalty to Bhutto. Following elections many PPP MNAs and MPAs visited Rabwah and got good reception at the Qasr-e-Khilafat. Khuddamul Ahmadiyya organised parties and contributed funds for the PPP public meetings. Qadiani students joined PPP led student federations to check the activities of Jamiat-e-Tulaba, the student wing of Jamaat-e-Islami. A powerful group among the bureaucracy and the military extended support to Rabwah to win its favours for future promotions (many high ranking army officers and civil servants belonged to the Jamaat). The leading anti-Qadiani groups and organisations operating in the country were suppressed and their activities curbed to appease Qadianis. Mirza Nasir (3rd Khalifa) was happy over his political bargain. He declared that majority of Muslims had accepted Qadiani point of view over the vital religious issues. In Saeed House Abbottabad, he declared that majority of people had accepted our interpretation on the belief of the death of Jesus Christ and Khatme Nabuwwat (AlFazl Rabwah, 30th June 1972) After an year he claimed that 70-80% people especially the young generation of Pakistan had come to believe that Ahmadis were not non-believers in Khatme Nabuwwat. Like the issue of Jesus' death, the issue of Khatam-i-Nabuwwat would finish in the next five or seven years, he predicted. (AlFazl Rabwah, 28th July 1973)

Oil crisis hit badly the Western world in late 1973 and it was deemed necessary to check any move meant to forge a common front against western powers. In February 1974, Bhutto announced the convening of Islamic Summit in Pakistan. It baffled Rabwah. The leading role of Saudi Arabia in the summit was a red rag to the Qadiani bull. Mirza Tahir says that Saudi King Faisal aspired to be the Khalifa of the Muslim world. Thus the fate of Faisal was sealed. He was murdered by his Americanised nephew. However an Anti Ahmadiyya movement was launched on the eve of Islamic Summit and lot of literature was distributed among the Muslim delegates.

These events created an atmosphere of mistrust between PPP and Rabwah. However they still enjoyed the support of several key figures of the ruling party. Mirza nasir continued to recieve PPP stalwarts in his palace in Rabwah and firmly believed that no harm can ever come to his community. From time to time, he ordered heads of different Ahmadiyya organisations to put up stiff resistance against the attacks of his opponents and preach Ahmadiyya creed in a fearless way. "How could you celebrate the centenary of Ahmadiyyat in a befitting manner if you did not prove your worth," he once advised his followers in a private meeting. All this contributed to the aggressive mood of the community. (Ahmadiyya Movement - British-Jewish Connection by Bashir Ahmad p.405)

The Rabwah Incident

In a bid to show their muscles to their opponents, Qadiani belligerents attacked the students of Nishter Medical College, Multan, when they came back from an excursion trip and passed through Rabwah on 29th May 1974. Qadianis carried sticks and light arms. Fifty students were badly injured with 13 in critical conditions. (Daily Jasarat, Karachi, 31st May 1974). It was a pre-planned affair and Mirza Nasir and Mirza Tahir were behind the game.

Qadiani Goondaism unleashed violent reaction all over Pakistan. Although Hanif Ramay, the Chief Minister of Punjab, issued stern warnings to law breakers yet the demonstrators paid no heed to it. Mr. Justice K A Samdani, a High Court Judge was appointed to hold an inquiry into the Rabwah incident. In the Punjab Assembly the leaders of the opposition moved adjournment motion but the speaker disallowed it on the ground that the matter was subjudice. (Pakistan Times, Rawalpindi, 3 May 1974)

Bhutto appealed to the people to wait for the results of the Tribunal but the movement continued unabetted. The opposition leaders in the National Assembly made stern efforts to move an adjournment motion on Rabwah incident without any success. The assembly devoted most of the time to procedural debate on the admissibility of such a motion. To check the rising movement, many religious and political leaders were arrested under the DPR (Defense of Pakistan Rules) and public meetings declared unlawful. (Daily Kohistan, Lahore, 10 May 1974) The Government used repressive measures to find an excuse to revive 1953 macabre drama to shelve the issue. People bore all hardships with fortitude to carry out the movement in a peaceful manner.

Everyone knew that the man behind the Qadiani goondaism was Mirza Nasir, the Government was however reluctant to arrest him. He filed a petition for bail before arrest in Lahore High Court. He was associated with the investigation into Rabwah incident. (Pakistan Times, Rawalpindi, 7 June 1974)

Samdani Tribunal

Meanwhile Justice Samdani Tribunal was conducting its investigations. The statements of the witnesses who appeared before the Samdani Tribunal appointed to investigate the causes of the Rabwah incident gave an awful picture of Qadiyaniyat hitherto less known to the world. Muhammad Saleh Noor, a Qadiani dissident deposed:

Khuddamul Ahmadiyya is military organisation of Ahmadis. It believes that the Jamaat will soon hold the rein of power.

Qadiani officials are instructed by the Khalifa to manage jobs through all legal or illegal means for Ahmadis.

In Africa, Ghulam Ahmad is projected as a prophet Ahmad.

There existed in Rabwah an organisation called Furqan Force. the witness had been a member of this force and it took part in hostilities in Kashmir in 1947. General Gracey had later disbanded this organisation. The arms and ammunition recieved by Furqan force were sent to Wahga through a military wagon and buried near Mahmud 'Mosque'. Volunteers had been posted to guard the arms and ammunitions.

Ahmadis have a mission in Israel. It is located in Haifa. It is under Tehreek Jadid and Mirza Mahmud was the Chief of that Department. Those who went to Israel from Pakistan had double passports. They went to an African country on a Pakistani passport adn there issued the other passport to go to Israel. The other passport was kept by them secretly. No Jews have been converted to Islam. (Pakistan Times 28 June 1974)

International Propaganda Campaign

At the hieght of mass protests and movement, entire Qadiani propaganda machinery was actively engaged in mustering international support. Mirza Nasir gave interview to Associated Press of America in which he alleged:

"I am convinced that due to many reasons Prime Minister Bhutto's PPP has engineered the riots. One reason is that PPP wants to prop up its crumbling prestige by winning over the support of the extremists of other sects."

Sir Zafarullah Khan Qadiani alleged that when their properties were being burnt by rioters, Federal Security Forces stood by as silent spectators. (Daily Jasarat, Karachi, 28 June 1974; B A Rafiq From the World Press)

On the basis of propaganda line given by Mirza Nasir and Qadiani Missions abroad, foreign press ascribed the Rabwah incident to Bhutto and Shah Faisal's policy to 'excommunicate ahmadis'. The Economist stated:

"Several months ago when an Ahmadi was fired as Chief of Staff of Air Force. This said to have turned the Ahmadis against Bhutto and now cited by conspirational minded Pakistan as one of the motivations, the Prime Minister may have had for inciting the riots himself. Another such incentive may have been provided by Pakistan's oil-rich Muslim brother; King Faisal is said to have urged Mr Bhutto at the Islamic Summit in Lahore last February to deal with Ahmadis and even to have made Arab aid contingent on a solution of the Ahmadi problem. A follow up Muslim meeting at Jeddah in March pronounced the Ahmadis non-Muslims, with the Pakistan delegation reluctantly acceding. Pakistan's religious parties have been stepping up anti Ahmadiyya propaganda ever since. " (The Economist London 15 June 1974)

As part of Ahmadiyya malicious propaganda against Pakistan, Sir Zafarullah Khan help a press conference on 5th June 1974 in London. He explained that the present trouble began when about 150 students from Nishtar Medical College at Multan had been passing by train through Rabwah, the headquarters of the community. They shouted slogans and obscenities at Ahmadis. There were similar demonstration by the students when the train returned a week later but this time they were greeted with violent reaction and some of them were hurt. (The Times London 7 June 1974)

Zafarullah Khan invited the attention of International community to the so-called persecution of Ahmadis in the Punjab and appealed to Amnesty INternational, International Red Cross, Human Rights Commission, International Commission of Jurists, public welfare bodies like OXFAM to go to Pakistan and help 'suffering' ahmadis. He wrote to UN Secretary General Kurt Waldhiem to send observers to Pakistan.

Similarly Jamaat Ahmadiyya Missions in US, UK, Nigeria and other countries met high placed Government officials to apprise them of the situation in Pakistan. British MPs expressed their sympathies for Ahmadis victims. Washington Post carried front page article sympathetic to Ahmadis and blatantly insulting to the people of Pakistan and Muslims in general. (Al-Islam USA 30 Sept 1974)

Governemnt of Pakistan deplored the tendency of a section of international press to distort and caricature internal happenings in Pakistan. Pakistan Times in its leading article refuted all absurd charges levelled by Ahmadiyya Missionaries and informed that the Prime Minister Bhutto had talks with delegates of all the interested groups. The son of the religious head of Ahmadiyya was among them who met the Prime Minister. The Provincial governments were kept in touch with the leaders of Ahmadiyya community as well as other groups involved in the controversy. It deplored the malicious propaganda of Ahmadiyya foreign missions and condenmed their anti-Pakistan statements. The paper questioned:

"We are not sure to what extent Pakistan foreign accusers have been influenced by the statements of Mirza Nasir Ahmad and Sir Zafarullah. but it is clear that by lapping up whatever was said by these gentlemen, they acted in fairness neither to them nor to Pakistan. Similarly the worthy spokesmen of Ahmadiyya community have only harmed their own cause by securing for foreign help against their own government and rendered themselves liable to the charge that they care more for their international connections than their loyalty to the land where they have enjoyed extraordinary facillities and privileges. Indeed they are more guilty of sullying the image of their country than their friends abroad." (Pakistan Times 25 June 1974)

Link - an Indian news magazine made following comments on Zafarullah's press conference in London:

"His recent press conference in London to malign the Government of Pakistan in Rabwah incident is part of a bigger scheme. one readily wonders where this Judge of International Court os justice was when Indians massaccred the members of the Muslim minority in more than three thousand communal riots till today.

Zafarullah Khan in his press conference in London said that at least 20 persons were killed in Rabwah and therefore he sought the intervention of Amnesty International and Commision for Human Rights and the International Red Cross. For people in Pakistan, who are in the know of full facts, this was a bolt from the bue and a stab in the back. A gross exaggeration of the whole incident. Zafarullah played well to the tunes of his masters. Let us all try to identify his masters. you will find them in Washington, in London, in Delhi and now most probably willing connivers in Moscow as well." (Link India, 23 june 1974; B A Rafiq, From the World Press, London p.114)

Despite mass protests, Bhutto continued his partisan attitude and support to Qadianis. He tried to put all the blame on some foreign hands. Opposition wanted Bhutto to come to brass tacks because he had showered many blessings on the Qadianis, particularly their large scale appointments to sensitive military posts. For instance two of the three military chiefs belonged to Qadiani community.

Government takes the Qadiani Issue to Elected Representatives

Bowing to the public pressure, on 30th June 1974, the Government announced to place the entire matter before the National Assembly of Pakistan in the form of two resolutions. One of the resolutions was sponsored by the Government and tabled by the then Law Minister, Abdul Hafeez Pirzada. The other resolution wassponsored by the opposition and moved by Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani, Secretary Parliamentary group of the Opposition. The resolution of the opposition was signed by 37 members of opposition including Maulana Abdul Haq, Sher Baz Mazari, Prof. Ghafoor Ahmed, and Haji Maula Bux Soomro.

The Government resolution related to the determination of the Constitutional position of Qadianis while the resolution of opposition was more exhaustive in nature over the position of Qadianis. It said:

"Whereas it is an accepted fact that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian proclaimed to be prophet after Prophet Muhammad (May peace be upon Him) and whereas his false proclamation of being a prophet and his attempt to falsify many of the verses of Quran and to end the conception of Jehad was a treachery against the fundamental concept of Islam.

And whereas the followers of his religion may have any name given to them, intermix with the Muslims, pretending to be a sect of Islam. this they are busy in subversive activities inwardly and outwardly.

And whereas the World Muslim Organisation in its meeting held between 6 and 10 April 1974 at Makkah in which 140 Muslim organisations of the Muslim World took part, decided unitedly that Qadianism which calls itself a sect of Islam is a subversive movement against Islam and the Islamic world.

Now therefore this Assembly should declare that the followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, may they be given any name, are non-Muslims and that a Government bill may be introduced to make necessary amendments in the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan so that this declaration of this non-Muslim minority may be safeguarded. (The Message International, Karachi, June-July 1984)

Both resolutions were referred by the National Assembly to the Whole House Special Committee for discussing them in detail and finally to submit its report to the National Assembly.

The Whole House Special Committee set up a Select Committee comprising of leaders of various groups in the Assembly. Perhaps it was a Divine Will that all the leaders of various religious and political parties were elected members of the Parliament. Maulana Shah Ahmed Noorani (JUP), Prof. Ghafoor Ahmed (JI), Maulana Mufti Mahmood (JUI) Chaudhery Zahoor Ilahi (ML) and Maula Bux Soomro (Independent group) represented the opposition in the Special Committee while the Government nominated Abdul Hafeez Pirzada (Law Minister) and Kauser Niazi (Minister of Information and Religious Affairs) to represent the government point of view. Both the House Committee and the Select Committee began their work with devotion.

Mirza Nasir Ahmad Qadiani, head of Qadiani group and Sadruddin, Amir of Lahori group requested the Committee to hear them in defense. The Committee accepted their request and asked them to explain fully their point of view. Mirza Nasir submitted a written explanation of about 200 pages and was examined and cross-examined by Yahya Bukhtiar, the then Attorney General(AG) of Pakistan. The questions asked by the AG were prepared by the members of the Committee especially the ulemas. Sadruddin designated Abdul Mannan Omer, a senior member of the community and son of Hakim Nuruddin to represent the Lahore section. He gave his jamaat's stand in a 14 page memorandum and was cross examined two days. Muslim point of view on the Qadiani issue was presented to the Assembly by 37 members of the National Assembly. Maulana Sami-ul-Haq, editor of the monthly Al Haq Akora Khattak and Maulana Muhammad Taqi Usmani, Karachi, under the guidance of Maulana Binori compiled the paper. It was read out by Maulana Mufti Mahmud in the Assembly. (Qadianism on Trial by Wali Muhammad Razi)

Sahibzada Farooq Ali, the then Speaker of the National Assembly revealed in an interview to the Jang that the members of the National Assembly acted in accordance with their faith and conscience to find a solution to the Qadiani problem. There was absolutely no pressure from the (Peoples) party on them. Bhutto and some members of Assembly believed that Qadianis were an educated class and would be in a better position to put forth the arguments in support of their contention. but Mirza Nasir Ahmad gave extremely ridiculous arguments and created poor impression of himself. During the cross examinations, he withstood the volley of questions but miserably failed to present his point of view. that conclusively proved that beliefs of Rabwah Jamaat were really dangerous.

Sahibzada further said:

"We were under the impression that unlike Qadianis, Lahore section of Ahmadiyyat could possibly be saved from being declared a non-Muslim minority as they did not believe in the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. But when Sadruddin, the aged leader of Lahore Jamaat presented his point of view to the Housem it became evident that each Ahmadiyya sect upheld dangerous and confused ideas. During the discussion when we asked the opinion of the House, majority of MNAs strongly maintained that Lahore Jamaat deserved to be declared a non-Muslim minority in the first instance. We did try to save them but there was no scope for it. It transpired that there was little doctrinal differences between the two groups, the real difference was political in nature. It was also felt that Sadruddin himself greatly desired that Lahore Jamaat should be declared non-Muslim minority. He was convinced that his arguments run contrary to his point of view." (Sahibzada Farooq Ali's interview, Jang Magazine, cited in Ahmadiyya Movement, British-Jewsih Connection by Bashir Ahmad)

Unanimous Report

The Committee of the Whole Hose of the National Assembly of Pakistan submitted its unanimous report as follows:

The Special Committee of the Whole House, assisted by its Steering Committee and Sub-Committee, having considered the resolutions before it or referred to it by the National Assembly and after perusal of the documents ad examination of witnesses, including heads of Anjuman Ahmadiyya Rabwah and Ahmadiyya Anjuman Ishaat-e-Islam Lahore, respectively, unanimously makes the following recommendations to the National Assembly:

a) That the Constitution of Pakistan be amended as follows:

i) that in Article 106(3) a reference be inserted to persons of the Qadiani Group and the Lahore Group (who call themselves Ahmadis);

ii) that a non-Muslim may be defined in a new clause in Article 260

To give effect to the above recommendations, a draft Bill unanimously agreed upon by the Special Committee is appended:

B) That the following explanation be added to section 295A of the Pakistan Penal Code:

Explanation: A Muslim who professes, practices or propagates against the concept of the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon Him) as set out in clause (3) of Article 260 of the Constitution shall be punishable under this section.

c) That consequential legislative and procedural amendments may be made in the relevant laws such as National Registration Act, 1973 and the Electoral Rolls Rules, 1974.

d) That the life, liberty, property, honour and fundamental rights of all citizens of Pakistan, irrespective of the communities to which they belong, shall be fully protected and safeguarded.

Signed:

Abdul Hafeez Pirzada

Maulana Mufti Mahmud

Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani

Prof. Ghafoor Ahmed

Ghulam Faruq

Ch. Zahur Elahi

Sardar Maula Bukhsh Soomro

I found this laying in bed!! Lolz

May Allah swt guide us on the true path

Ya Jahil .Indeed you are jahil.you are trying to prove "how much" you know from a story article!!

Maulana Ismail Deobandi was not in committee. So his name not came.. In 1974 All the sunni scholars you named had to call Maulana Ismail Deobandi who was a shia Alim , And actual defeat of qadiani in the munazira by Ismail deobandi.

As always you elders Umar/Abu Bakr who were very good to flee from the Battle fields, became khalifa, Like this your ulema have no guts to prove Qadianis are kafir.Had call Shia.A intellectually bankrupt community who can only kill innocent people in the market.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to the shia school of thought are Sunni Muslims considered to be Muslims? Or are they out of the fold of Islam. Why or why not?

do u know that when shia mahdi arrive he will kill all sunnis and yet they claim that sunnis are their brothers lol. how can the enemies of your mahdi be your brothers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

do u know that when shia mahdi arrive he will kill all sunnis and yet they claim that sunnis are their brothers lol. how can the enemies of your mahdi be your brothers.

So you know ilm ul-Ghaib?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NAZM:

Ya Jahil .Indeed you are jahil.you are trying to prove "how much" you know from a story article!!

Maulana Ismail Deobandi was not in committee. So his name not came.. In 1974 All the sunni scholars you named had to call Maulana Ismail Deobandi who was a shia Alim , And actual defeat of qadiani in the munazira by Ismail deobandi.

AYUBI786:

Is this true? i will post you something like i said STOP WATCHING YOUTUBE!! Its FULL OF LIES!!!

NAZM:

As always you elders Umar/Abu Bakr who were very good to flee from the Battle fields, became khalifa, Like this your ulema have no guts to prove Qadianis are kafir.Had call Shia.A intellectually bankrupt community who can only kill innocent people in the market.

AYUBI786:

TOKEN PICKED!!! Not invited! Not debated!! But mr ismael was token picked!!

REALITY CHECK!!

Read!! Like it says in Quran READ not WATCH! Like youtube vids!

Lolz

Based on what I have read and seen, the role Shias played against Ahmadi Muslims appears to be overstated and exaggerated. Token participation and appropriation of Shias can also be found in General Zia’s Shura and federal cabinet. Does that mean Shias as a community also played a dirty role in the creation of Sipah-e-Sahaba and anti-Shia Jihadist regime?

So far, I have not come across a fatwa by any authentic Shia scholar (Mujtahid or Ayatollah) declaring Ahmadis as non-Muslims. Similarly, there is no evidence of Shia group or mobs attacking Ahmadis or demonstrating against them (barring one or two token Shias attending the JI or Khatam-e-Nabuwat rallies). This is contrary to the organized and consistent violence by Sunni religious parties (JI, JUI, JUP, now JuD, SSP-ASWJ etc) against Ahmadiyya Muslims since 1950s.

By that account, the Difa-e-Pakistan Council too claims it represents Pakistani Hindus, Christians and other minorities, JI too routinely celebrates Christmas with Pakistani Christians etc. Thus, support by one or two token Shias to anti-Ahmadiyya Sunni groups may not be attributed to Shia Muslims in general. Perhaps we may refer to Shias’ general apathy towards Ahmadis but such apathy is reciprocal and is also found in all communities and groups on numerous issues (e.g., on Baloch and Pasthun genocide etc).

Perhaps it might be useful to exactly specify who amongst Shias and how many Shias were active against Ahmadis, and how and in what capacity etc.

Yes, a few Shia scholars were invited to Pakistan’s National Assembly in 1974 including Shia scholar Maulana Muhammad Ismail Deobandi. A few Shia scholars were also a part of Sunni-led anti-Ahmadiyya movement during 1950s. However, action of one or two individuals cannot and must not be attributed to an entire community. We also need to understand the pressure tactics on minority groups and their token appropriation in the mainstream agendas. This must not be forgotten that Maulana Ismail Deobandi himself used to be a Sunni Deobandi scholar and had converted to Shia Islam after a comparative study of faiths and sects. Indeed, part of his hatred against Ahmadiyya Muslims may also be traced to his education and social conditioning in Sunni Deobandi madrassas.

At the same time, one may not ignore the aspect of token invitation to Shia scholars to the National Assembly before the State formally declared its own citizens (Ahmadis) as non-Muslims. Was any Shia scholar invited to present Pakistan flag to Pakistan’s first legislative assembly? No, it was a Sunni Deobandi scholar Shabbir Ahmed Usmani who was chosen for that celebrated task. Also, can we ignore the fact that though founder of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah himself was a Shia Muslim, his funeral prayers were led by a Sunni Deobandi scholar? Thus, the aspect of token invitation to hand-picked Shia scholars before the apostatizing of Ahmadi Muslims may not be ignored.

However, what can be and should be condemned is the general apathy of Shia Muslims along with other members of Pakistani society (Sunnis, Christians, Balochs, Pashtuns, Sindhis, Punjabis etc) towards the apostatizing of Ahmadi Muslims in violation of their fundamental human rights.

Isamel Deobandi and Muzaffar Shamsi were two of thousands of Shia mullahs. I remember one Ain Ghain Kararwi who used to support the JI and IJI during late 1980s and early 1990s. I am not sure the whole Shia community can be blamed for the action of one or two Shia mullahs who sold their souls to the Jihado-fascist establishment. I will be happy to revise my opinion if someone could provide a counter-narrative with empirical evidence.

Another issue we may wish to consider is that some elements in Pakistani media and establishment are currently circulating and exaggerating this narrative (Shias too were against Ahmadis) to obfuscate and justify the systematic genocide of Shias which is taking place since 1963 (Thehri, Sindh, 118 killed) etc and also to create divisions within the oppressed groups (e.g., between Shias, Ahmadis etc).

Does Shia massacre in 1963 also have something to do with Maulana Ismail Deobandi’s anti-Ahmadi speech in Pakistan’s National Assembly in 1974? Also, how can we explain the increasing number of attacks on other communities in Pakistan, e.g, Christians, Hindus, Siksh? Did they too participate in the apostatizing of Ahmadis? This tendency of presenting a pretext to the ongoing genocide of Shia Muslims (Pakistan’s most target killed faith group since 1947) is neither honest nor constructive. Indeed, this may be seen as yet another blaming the victim narrative and tactic of Pakistani media and urban elites who, instead of sympathizing with and supporting a systematically a target killed community (Shia Muslims), appear to be interested in rationalizing, justifying or misrepresenting the genocide through false neutral and acontextual analyses. In other words, urban elites in Pakistani media are blaming one oppressed community (Shias) for the miseries of another oppressed community (Ahmadis) while elites themselves remain silent or misrepresent the sufferings of both communities. For example, refer to the most recent issue of The Friday Times which not only misrepresented Shias but also Ahmadis.

Perhaps the othering of not only Shias but also Ahmadis and other communities may be routed back to the Objectives Resolution in 1949 which was a betrayal of the Pakistani social contract presented by Jinnah on 11 August 1947.

What one can learn from the 1974 anti-Ahmadi legislation is that no political, ethnic or faith group in Pakistan has a sense of history. Even Bhutto acted in a politically expedient yet foolish manner, the so-called man with a sense of history. The one or two token Shia scholars who spoke against Ahmadis should have realized that their own community would be the next on the menu. They, however, were probably interested in certain immediate benefits (free Hajj, Umrah, membership in Shura etc). Of course, we cannot blame the entire Shia community for the action of a few sold out souls.

In hindsight, Shias, Ahmadis, others should not have been a part of the Pakistan Movement which was itself based on communal hatred and divisions. In Ghalib’s words: meri tameer mein muzmir he ik soorat kharabi ki (there is an element of self-destruction in the way I have been constructed).

Related posts: Debate on Shia role in Ahmadi persecution – by Ali Abbas Taj

Well at least you spelt jahil right lolz anyway here is a post about HOW MUCH INFLUENCE mr ismael had!!!

NOTHING ZILCH NADA NON!!

THEY WERE JUST LAGGIN ALONG

AND ANOTHER THING SOME SHIA DIDNT CONSIDER HIM ALIM DUE TO THE FACT HE BECAME SHIA BUT HE DIDNT POSSESS MUCH KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THEM!

Hey he joined up his shia group with WAHABIS AND NEO SALAFIS?? Wow!!

So the three are real bedfellows in pakistan?? Mmmm

Hey thats what they say!!!

Trust me how far do you want the rabbit hole to go??

STOP DECIEVING WITH YOUR LIES!!

Get out of CUCKOO land and RESEARCH real TRUTH!!

Take care brother

Edited by Ayubi786

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With sahih sanad (someone can correct if I'm wrong)

Hadith from the Ahlul Bayt if sunnis are muslims?

عدة من أصحابنا، عن أحمد بن محمد، وسهل بن زياد، وعلي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه جميعا، عن ابن محبوب، عن علي بن رئاب، عن ضريس الكناسي (4) قال: سألت أبا جعفر (عليه السلام)

قلت: أصلحك الله فما حال الموحدين المقرين بنبوة محمد (صلى الله عليه وآله) من المسلمين المذنبين الذين يموتون وليس لهم إمام ولا يعرفون ولايتكم؟ فقال: أما هؤلاء فإنهم في حفرتهم لا يخرجون منها فمن كان منهم له عمل صالح ولم يظهر منه عداوة فإنه يخد له خد إلى الجنة التي خلقها الله في المغرب فيدخل عليه منها الروح في حفرته إلى يوم القيامة فيلقى الله فيحاسبه بحسناته وسيئاته فإما إلى الجنة وإما إلى النار فهؤلاء موقوفون لامر الله، قال: وكذلك يفعل الله بالمستضعفين والبله والاطفال وأولاد المسلمين الذين لم يبلغوا الحلم فأما النصاب من أهل القبلة فإنهم يخد لهم خد إلى النار التي خلقها الله في المشرق فيدخل عليهم منها اللهب والشرر والدخان وفورة الحميم إلى يوم القيامة، ثم مصيرهم إلى الحميم ثم في النار يسجرون (2) ثم قيل لهم: أينما كنتم تدعون من دون الله؟ أين إمامكم الذي اتخذتموه دون الامام الذي جعله الله للناس إماما؟

Dhrees al-kinassi asked abu jaafar(as) about the muslims who believe in tawhid and believe in prophethood of muhammed saww and died without an imam and they dont know your wilayat(wilayat of imams(as) so the imam (as) answered : as for those then they are in their holes (tombs) they dont get out of them so whoever did good and didnt show enmity (towards ahlbeit(as) )then he will be given like a tunnel to paradise that Allah created in the west and he gets the good smell (of paradise) in his tomb untill the day of judgement and then he meets Allah so Allah judges him according to his bad and good deeds and accoirdingly he's either in paradise or in hell so these are awaiting the decision of Allah , and so is the case with the oppressed and the children and the childdren of muslim..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bro, there is a difference between us, and those who say shia kafirs, Sunnis are obviously Muslim, they say the Shahada, and accept Rasool Allah, and pray, fast, give zakat, and have a basic idea of Islam similar to us, they are Muslims, we may have a bit of differences, but that doesn't make them any less Muslim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...