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In the Name of God بسم الله

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what do you think about this issue?

i have heard a saying that "even a leaf of a tree doesnot move without the will of Allah swt"

how much is that true?

i vote for free will

i think so because on the judgement day nobody can question Allah swt that why he is going to hell when everything he had done was already written by Allah swt and Allah's will

we know that Allah swt is just

so doesnt it contradict predestination (Allah decided who will commit sins and later he is punishing them - something illogical isnt it?) [for ex - yazid]

and my understanding of islam so far (as i am a convert) is that life is a test

Allah is the judge

prophets saww are teachers

we are students

life is test

who ever passes it go to heaven

who ever fails goes to hell

so what do you guys think free will or predestination

and also about hidayat

now when Allah swt didnot give hidayat to abu jahl for example

and also Allah swt had destined and written that abu jahl is going to die as a disbeliever

so on the day of judgement wont he and others of such kind, question Allah swt that why are they being punished for it is Allah swt who had predestined and not given hidayat???

also how yazid is lanatullah when karbala was predestined??????

thats why i strongly believe FREE WILL

so please share your views and also any authentic hadiths and verses of holy quran sharif

salaams

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I see free will like this,

Imagine a game, like Assassins Creed.

You are free to either roam around, climb some buildings, kill certain people etc. but cannot do anymore. Sometimes you cannot leave the map, cannot kill certain people etc.

Within a locked system, we are free to do as we wish. The locked system will be different for each individual, it is the system which God puts in place for that person.

That system will determine, in some way or another, roughly what we are determined to do. But within it, there are still many numerous outcomes and decisions which must be made by the individual.

Hope that makes sense.

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Al-Ta'ir haha, good game.

varun, i think the brother has done a good job of explaining that.

We have limitations this is true as one of our Imaam's (as) put it simply "lift one leg... ...now lift the other."

Can you do it? As the Imaam (as) replied: (to the effect of) 'That is that one leg is rooted in free-will and the other by the laws of Allah (SWT)"

But this doesn't necessarily mean "destiny" as understood by our brothers in other schools. This governs our limitations within the framework which is kind of set in stone, that is, if you had complete free will you could fly, fetch the sun squash it till it fitted into your pocket and walked around with it, naturally we don't have that level of free will.

But in terms of a plan being played out, as in Allah has written a plan and we are coerced to follow it, that makes the element of choice redundant. Rather, our school believes that EVERYTHING is within Allah's knowledge, obviously, Allah (SWT) is All-knowing but because it is known by our Creator does not mean He has affected it's outcome. This is possible and if you want clearer examples of this, I've cited them in other posts:

See: http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2352159

See: http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2356671

These other posts do a better job of explaining it than I did here,

Hope it helps.

Was-Salaam

Edited by JawzofDETH

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It is very important to understand God's power at this point, to understand this question.

Obviously God's power is so great, we cannot imagine it, not only because we are intellectually limited, but because it is TOO great.

We are constantly under the power of God, nothing in this world or in any existence can move or react, or think or grow, or live or die, without God's will (God's power).

So how are you saying that we are choosing paths, taking decisions, moving around and learning things, without God's intervention? That is impossible. Without God we are nothing.

We cannot think that God has created us, then left us to dwell in life as we wish.

To conclude, if God has complete power over us, are we really free? God is the one to be thanked if someone has found the right path, because in fact, it is God that has fixed that individual to follow that specific path. Without God there is no path.

If God has created all the paths and has power over all of these, how can we dare to receive credit for following a specific path?

God is the almighty, and only by his permission do we move, think, and react, he is the controller, it is not our intelligence that drives us towards the right path. It is God's power,

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o how are you saying that we are choosing paths, taking decisions, moving around and learning things, without God's intervention? That is impossible. Without God we are nothing.

We cannot think that God has created us, then left us to dwell in life as we wish.

Allah (SWT) is our constant sustainer, no one is denying that.

As to what you say about paths,

To conclude, if God has complete power over us, are we really free? God is the one to be thanked if someone has found the right path, because in fact, it is God that has fixed that individual to follow that specific path. Without God there is no path.

If God has created all the paths and has power over all of these, how can we dare to receive credit for following a specific path?

Allah (SWT) tells us in the Qur'aan those whom He doesn't guide:

"And Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk."

"Allah guideth not the froward folk."

"Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk."

"Lo! Allah guideth not one who is a prodigal, a liar."

So it is obvious that Allah (SWT) will guide people whom don't hold these negative traits. Allah (SWT) guides to the right path whom He chooses.

Allah (SWT) also tells us in the Qur'aan those whom He guides:

"so Allah has guided by His will those who believe to the truth about which they differed and Allah guides whom He pleases to the right path."

"Surely you cannot guide whom you love, but Allah guides whom He pleases, and He knows best the followers of the right way."

But what you are saying means that there is no point to existence, the choices we make are irrelevant because we are solely coerced to be on a good path or a bad one, this is not adl (just) and Allah (SWT) is Al-Adl. This is not the view of the school of AhlulBayt (as) but rather more the belief of the early-Asharites, ask anyone. We believe the choices you make and life you lead will affect whether Allah (SWT) choses to guide you or not. That is how even Prophets (as) and Imaams (as) were chosen, based on the merits of their actions and deeds.

This issue has been discussed by our Imaams (as)

Imaam Musa's (as) reply to Abu Hanifa:

One day when our 7th Imam, Imam Musa al-Kadhim (as) was only 5 years old, Abu Hanifa asked him who is responsible for our deeds. Does man do them of his own free will or does Allah make him do them.

Imam (as) replied that were three possibilities:

- Allah makes man do them.

- Both Allah and man are responsible.

- Man does them alone.

If the first is true than Allah should be judged on the day of Qiyamat and sent to heaven or hell.

If the second is true that both Allah and man should be judged on the day of Qiyamat and sent to heaven or hell.

The only one that is true is the third one because only man will be judged on the day of Qiyaaat and sent to heaven or hell, as only man alone is responsible for his actions and deeds.

Was-Salaam

Edited by JawzofDETH

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Thank you for responding with such care, as this question has been on my mind for some days now. I don't dare to argue against the teachings of Ahlulbayt (as).

Basically;

-no action is complete without God's approval,

-man has the power(gift from God) to choose between different paths and take specific decisions depending on his reasoning and faith,

-it is by our good and sincere actions that we will eventually be guided by God

However, I thought that the same way that God created the Evil (by creating Iblis to become an arrogant adversary) he would create Good,

He would in the same manner, create good and bad people, because let's face it, some people are simply Good, and others simply Bad, they could both come from the same background.

In that way, God would make us go through life so that WE learn from it, and acknowledge that he is the one and only, creator of all, but not to see if we chose the right path, he already knows that, he isn't bound by time, he doesn't need us to go through life to see which ones of us as good or bad, he CREATED us as we are.

Kheir inshallah

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-no action is complete without God's approval,

-man has the power(gift from God) to choose between different paths and take specific decisions depending on his reasoning and faith,

-it is by our good and sincere actions that we will eventually be guided by God

could you please relate these statements to the events such as karbala, yazidi actions, all the evil things such as bomb blasts which are killing dozens of innocent people daily

are all these actions completed by Allah swt 's approval

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However, I thought that the same way that God created the Evil (by creating Iblis to become an arrogant adversary) he would create Good, He would in the same manner, create good and bad people, because let's face it, some people are simply Good, and others simply Bad, they could both come from the same background. In that way, God would make us go through life so that WE learn from it, and acknowledge that he is the one and only, creator of all, but not to see if we chose the right path, he already knows that, he isn't bound by time, he doesn't need us to go through life to see which ones of us as good or bad, he CREATED us as we are. Kheir inshallah

Even Iblis had a choice, he was not coerced nor were the odds stacked against him, he always had the choice and he still has... ...people are not simply good or bad, factors influence, like instincts, desires or the lack thereof, emotions, fantasies / imagination, appetites, etc. The choice is to listen to them or not at the best and worst of times is what decides where you more or less stand.

You see on this issue, scholars (Rah) believe that Allah (SWT) created man with the innate tendency towards what is good and wholesome. As we see in the world, we build societies based on religious, family-oriented and communal bases, our laws strive in essence for justice and sometimes fairness. Man's desire innately and his natural disposition is towards good, he has come to appreciate through intellect that he rather build than destroy. There is no such thing as "evil" in a real sense, it is more a level of absence of the good and the wholesome that has come to be known as evil. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that evil doesn't exist, but rather that by creating Iblis, Allah (SWT) did not “create evil.” Good and evil are not classical binary opponents or opposite poles. There are rates and levels of actions, some actions can even be described as neutral or more good, worse etc. One has to think of it this way, sometimes we say "things are not all black and white" as an expression right? That is, if I ask you, what is the opposite colour to black, you'd probably say white. But these are not classically opposites, we have just come to know them as opposing. In reality the opposite of white is "not white." Of-course Allah (SWT) recognises the concept of evil in the Qur'aan, but to explain this: Our Lord Al-mighty describes guidance as "light" and jahiliyyah (ignorance) as "darkness." Darkness isn't really an existing thing is it? Rather it is the absence of light. Without knowing light how could we have come to understand / name darkness?

Was-Salaam

Edited by JawzofDETH

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I have the free will to pray salat or skip it. But whatever I do was already recorded by Allah in His Book. It doesn't mean Allah forced me to pray or not to pray. But it's possible He 'will help' me to pray. This is called 'taufeeq'. Because sometimes a person intends to commit a sin, but they are stopped by a barrier created by the will of Allah, for example person 'X' plans to kill person 'Y' but the moment 'X' was pulling the trigger, Police arrived and caught X before the murder taking place. Badluck for X! Now who saved Y's life?

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Thank you for your time,

could you please relate these statements to the events such as karbala, yazidi actions, all the evil things such as bomb blasts which are killing dozens of innocent people daily

are all these actions completed by Allah swt 's approval

According to what you are saying, Karbala was man's creation? God created Karbala such a shocking event so that it would be forever spoken of and remembered, so the Essence of the story is understood, that Imam Hussain (as) stood with his life and all that is precious to him for the sake of Islam (God) and never surrendered to what is wrong. The same way that God (swt) utilises prophetic stories in the Quran to make us understand the Essence/Principle which the story is leaning towards. I am not saying that the people who committed these atrocities are not to be punished. I am simply saying that maybe God (swt) is the "architect" and "creator" of the events that behold in life (dunia).

However,

As i was doing research on Karbala just now (subhan Allah ta3ala), I discovered these sayings by Zaynab (as) the daughter of Imam Ali (as):

"The praise is exclusively attributed to Allah. And greetings to my father (grand father), Muhammad, and to his pure and benevolent family. And then, Oh people of Kufa! Oh deceitful and reneger people! Do you weep? So let tears not be dried and let groans not be finished. ... Beware, such a bad preparation you have made for yourself that Allah became furious of you and you will be at punishment forever. Do you weep and cry? Yes, by Allah, do weep numerously and do laugh less! Since you brought its shame and fault on yourself and you will not be able to cleanse it forever. ..." 1

You see that part in bold? She (as) is speaking of their Responsibility of their actions, and the preparation (hellfire) that THEY have brought to themselves. So this really goes towards freewill.

1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Karbala

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Thank you again for your time,

Even Iblis had a choice, he was not coerced nor were the odds stacked against him, he always had the choice and he still has... ...people are not simply good or bad, factors influence, like instincts, desires or the lack thereof, emotions, fantasies / imagination, appetites, etc. The choice is to listen to them or not at the best and worst of times is what decides where you more or less stand.

You see on this issue, scholars (Rah) believe that Allah (SWT) created man with the innate tendency towards what is good and wholesome.

(For the part that Darkness doesn't exist, it is only the absence of Light, I totally agree, the same way that Cold doesn't exist, it is the absence of Heat.)

But here, we have an angel (Iblis), who does not have emotions, nor desires, nor fantasies. Angels are very different than Man. They do not need an appetite, wordly desires, temptations to survive, they are eternal (by God's will). They do not depend on food or rest to survive, their survival depends uniquely on God, it is God's will that prevents them from vanishing, the same way that God's will prevents the world from collapsing as he hold's the heavens separated from the earth at all times.

Also, angels know Nothing, absolutely Nothing more than what God (swt) teaches them. ((As we can see when God (swt) asks the angels to recite all the things that he teached prophet Adam (as), the angels couldn't answer such a question since God (swt) never teached them these things, so he asked them to bow to Adam (as), so they all did except Iblis)). So how did Iblis even Think of not obeying God (swt) if the concept of disobeying God (swt) never existed inside him? Iblis, or any angel, or person, Cannot manifest anything that does not come from God ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì, for they will now know of that thing.

How can Iblis disobey God (swt) if God had not allowed him to? He is an angel, he does not have free will. As I am typing this, a thought has entered my mind "Allah (swt) is so great and mighty, that only he could allow and create such a thing as Free Will. Only he has the power/mercy/kindness/greatness to allow mankind, to decide for their own sake without interfering with his greatness."

Maybe it is true, that mankind is free, that Allah (swt) has given us the gift of freedom and the ability to differentiate between the Good and the Bad by ourselves. But all the glory belongs to God.

Kheir inshallah

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I have the free will to pray salat or skip it. But whatever I do was already recorded by Allah in His Book. It doesn't mean Allah forced me to pray or not to pray. But it's possible He 'will help' me to pray. This is called 'taufeeq'. Because sometimes a person intends to commit a sin, but they are stopped by a barrier created by the will of Allah, for example person 'X' plans to kill person 'Y' but the moment 'X' was pulling the trigger, Police arrived and caught X before the murder taking place. Badluck for X! Now who saved Y's life?

Your "mise en scene" is very interesting and helpful I think. Thank you

Person "X" had the free will to kill person "Y", he has taken the decision to do so, he has chosen to do so.

But it did not happen, since Allah (swt) did now allow it to happen, for reasons only he knows.

Maybe person "Y" wasn't ready to die yet? Had a mission he needed to complete before leaving this world.

Or that person "X" would of been in too much trouble to have killed the other and has been saved by Allah (swt) from Hell, as person "X" might repent during the rest of his life.

Subhan Allah Ta3ala, such a magnificent world we live in, so perfectly designed. No one can intervene in God's (swt) plans, yet we are free. How amazing can that be?

God (swt) does whatever he wishes to do, he chose to make us free, being free does not mean his power does not reach us anymore, but it means that we are responsible of our actions.

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Thank you again for your time,

(For the part that Darkness doesn't exist, it is only the absence of Light, I totally agree, the same way that Cold doesn't exist, it is the absence of Heat.)

But here, we have an angel (Iblis), who does not have emotions, nor desires, nor fantasies. Angels are very different than Man. They do not need an appetite, wordly desires, temptations to survive, they are eternal (by God's will). They do not depend on food or rest to survive, their survival depends uniquely on God, it is God's will that prevents them from vanishing, the same way that God's will prevents the world from collapsing as he hold's the heavens separated from the earth at all times.

Also, angels know Nothing, absolutely Nothing more than what God (swt) teaches them. ((As we can see when God (swt) asks the angels to recite all the things that he teached prophet Adam (as), the angels couldn't answer such a question since God (swt) never teached them these things, so he asked them to bow to Adam (as), so they all did except Iblis)). So how did Iblis even Think of not obeying God (swt) if the concept of disobeying God (swt) never existed inside him? Iblis, or any angel, or person, Cannot manifest anything that does not come from God سبحانه وتعالى, for they will now know of that thing.

How can Iblis disobey God (swt) if God had not allowed him to? He is an angel, he does not have free will. As I am typing this, a thought has entered my mind "Allah (swt) is so great and mighty, that only he could allow and create such a thing as Free Will. Only he has the power/mercy/kindness/greatness to allow mankind, to decide for their own sake without interfering with his greatness."

Maybe it is true, that mankind is free, that Allah (swt) has given us the gift of freedom and the ability to differentiate between the Good and the Bad by ourselves. But all the glory belongs to God.

Kheir inshallah

In the Qur'aan Iblis is not an angel but a jinn. ;)

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِنْ دُونِي وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ بِئْسَ لِلظَّالِمِينَ بَدَلًا {50}

[Shakir 18:50] And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.

[Pickthal 18:50] And (remember) when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He was of the jinn, so he rebelled against his Lord's command. Will ye choose him and his seed for your protecting friends instead of Me, when they are an enemy unto you? Calamitous is the exchange for evil-doers.

[Yusufali 18:50] Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!

Free will friend, if Allah (SWT) had created him an angel and then punished him in hellfire for something that he was compelled to do, this would be dhulm, and our Lord (SWT) is the very opposite of tyranny, He is Al-Adl.

Was-Salaam

I have the free will to pray salat or skip it. But whatever I do was already recorded by Allah in His Book. It doesn't mean Allah forced me to pray or not to pray. But it's possible He 'will help' me to pray. This is called 'taufeeq'. Because sometimes a person intends to commit a sin, but they are stopped by a barrier created by the will of Allah, for example person 'X' plans to kill person 'Y' but the moment 'X' was pulling the trigger, Police arrived and caught X before the murder taking place. Badluck for X! Now who saved Y's life?

We cannot say it was the will of Allah سبحانه وتعالى. So Allah knows best.

When an injustice happens or a child dies of starvation do we then say "Why didn't Allah intervene?"

Was-Salaam

Edited by JawzofDETH

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We cannot say it was the will of Allah سبحانه وتعالى. So Allah knows best.

When an injustice happens or a child dies of starvation do we then say "Why didn't Allah intervene?"

Was-Salaam

Whatever happens, happens by the will of Allah. If Allah wills that oxygen will poison the blood, it will happen and all people shall die.

When earthquakes or tsunami affects an area, hundreds or thousands of innocent people may die, but you can't say it's injustice from Allah. He is the giver of light and He will take it back. Scenes of death upon little kids are too disturbing for us, but to Allah these deaths don't mean what they mean to us.

A rapist rapes a pious and modest girl, it's the will of Allah. It's test for the two (the rapist and the victim both). They both may avoid it; the rapist could have avoided it by fearing Allah and the victim by running away. But if the crime still takes place then this tragic incident is a test for the victim, if she remains patient, Allah will reward her because of her sabr and reliance upon Allah. As for the rapist, he will be punished in this world or the next or both if he doesn't repent and mend his ways.

Whatever happens, happens by the will of Allah, you have absolutely NO CONTROL over anything, neither upon your heartbeat, nor your breathing, you don't control a single grain or atom of matter anywhere in this universe.

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i think your questions are beyond questions,

this world is nothing more then an illusion, its insignificant, you are all travelers who will taste death soon, it is not a big thing that your lord controls time and space, time and space is a just another creation, so are created the creatures that are made from fire that wear fire and eat fire, so are the creatures that are made from wind, wear wind and eat wind, and so are created the creatures that are made from soil. that wear soil and eat soil, so is your imagination and questions, just a creation.............

how can one believe he knows not? how can he not know what you will do and what you wont? how can he be unjust when he says he is just? he is what he says he is, you only can understand words and what you see and hear, ( 6 senses) which are all failures in his recognistion

you are predestioned for many things and also have free will for many things, but he will know what you will do and the outcome, he (saw) is one, but with many names/attributes, which give you freedom to choose your destiny yourself......................................................................

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You're very right about Iblis being a jinn, but how does that make it different? What is the difference between jin and angels? lol here's another discussion :wacko:

And man have free will, but do jinns or angels have it too?

A jinn like human beings has free will and can choose from right and wrong. A angel can not choose and has to obey what Allah (swt) says.

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i think your questions are beyond questions,

this world is nothing more then an illusion, its insignificant, you are all travelers who will taste death soon, it is not a big thing that your lord controls time and space, time and space is a just another creation, so are created the creatures that are made from fire that wear fire and eat fire, so are the creatures that are made from wind, wear wind and eat wind, and so are created the creatures that are made from soil. that wear soil and eat soil, so is your imagination and questions, just a creation.............

how can one believe he knows not? how can he not know what you will do and what you wont? how can he be unjust when he says he is just? he is what he says he is, you only can understand words and what you see and hear, ( 6 senses) which are all failures in his recognistion

you are predestioned for many things and also have free will for many things, but he will know what you will do and the outcome, he (saw) is one, but with many names/attributes, which give you freedom to choose your destiny yourself......................................................................

I think you're right. We are free in some cases and we aren't in others. There is no point to question absolutely everything hen God was clear in his messages about how we should behave. We should simply obey to him, and all should be good nshallah. Knowing exactly how everything functions doesn't affect the outcome.

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You're very right about Iblis being a jinn, but how does that make it different? What is the difference between jin and angels? lol here's another discussion :wacko:

And man have free will, but do jinns or angels have it too?

Man and Jinn have free will.

Angels don't disobey Allah.

Consult the Qur'aan and you'll find your answers. :)

Was-Salaam

Whatever happens, happens by the will of Allah. If Allah wills that oxygen will poison the blood, it will happen and all people shall die.

When earthquakes or tsunami affects an area, hundreds or thousands of innocent people may die, but you can't say it's injustice from Allah. He is the giver of light and He will take it back. Scenes of death upon little kids are too disturbing for us, but to Allah these deaths don't mean what they mean to us.

A rapist rapes a pious and modest girl, it's the will of Allah. It's test for the two (the rapist and the victim both). They both may avoid it; the rapist could have avoided it by fearing Allah and the victim by running away. But if the crime still takes place then this tragic incident is a test for the victim, if she remains patient, Allah will reward her because of her sabr and reliance upon Allah. As for the rapist, he will be punished in this world or the next or both if he doesn't repent and mend his ways.

Whatever happens, happens by the will of Allah, you have absolutely NO CONTROL over anything, neither upon your heartbeat, nor your breathing, you don't control a single grain or atom of matter anywhere in this universe.

As to your post, with respect: That is not the position in the school of Ahlulbayt (as)

Allah (SWT) does not do injustice to anyone or any people. He is Al-Adl.

Please feel free to ask others here if you disagree.

There's one critical thing you need to understand and that is the difference between consent, will and power. We exist, breath, the earth spins, the seasons change, all by the power of Allah, if He (SWT) did not consent to us breathing we wouldn't simple as that. We exist for our own sakes not for His سبحانه وتعالى, we don't add to His Power by existing or take away from it by not.

If it is Allah's will that one disbelieves, then still has to be punished thereby, this is dhulm.

However if Allah is consents for one to disbelieve as by their own free choice if they so choose it,

Then Allah (SWT) is not in any way accountable.

Things happen by way of trials in our lives, that's a separate matter, that may be that Allah (SWT) chooses to test us as the Almighty has said that He would - the believers. It doesn't mean in any form that Allah (SWT) is somehow our mercy; He is All-Powerful and can affect matters as He pleases. But Allah (SWT) will operate justly with man as He has told us.

This is why Allah (SWT) is not responsible for children starving etc.

He tells us in the Qur'aan that we have been given enough, an abundance.

We misuse it, it is our fault. He has placed us as Khalifahs on earth, this is our role.

He WILL NOT wrong us, we have done wrong to ourselves.

Even droughts (through global dimming) and famine (through harmful materials) can be caused by man, tsunamis too. (Technology exists)

In America I'm told they have spring floods yearly somewhere near the great lakes, after the floods have devastated homes etc. people go and rebuild them, next year the same thing happens? Now whose fault is that? We must use all the information at our disposal to ensure that minimal losses occur to life and property.

There has been no promise that we won't be harmed by other free agents on earth? People can get killed by other people, they get afflicted by jinn, attacked by wild animals and suffer loss at the hands of nature. This is not necessarily Allah's Will, only Allah (SWT) can say if He has willed it a certain way or not.

Was-Salaam

Edited by JawzofDETH

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A rapist rapes a pious and modest girl, it's the will of Allah. It's test for the two (the rapist and the victim both). They both may avoid it; the rapist could have avoided it by fearing Allah and the victim by running away. But if the crime still takes place then this tragic incident is a test for the victim, if she remains patient, Allah will reward her because of her sabr and reliance upon Allah. As for the rapist, he will be punished in this world or the next or both if he doesn't repent and mend his ways.

i didnt get you what you meant by this statement

do you except the victim wont try to run away

what sabr and patience are you talking about

the girl is being raped man :mad:

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so from ammar's lecture it is very clear about the opinion of school of ahlulbayt on this issue

we believe that it is mid way between freewill and predestination

some things like - which religion we are born into, which family ,which country..................we have no choice or freewill - it is all predestined

but the things which we do ,our actions ,our deeds........................are upto us we have free will in that sense

Allah swt already knows what we do ..........because he is all knowing

but he doesnot interfere or influence us or our actions

but again iff he wants he can do that is the will of Allah

so it is free will + predestination

subanAllah

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some things like - which religion we are born into, which family ,which country..................we have no choice or freewill - it is all predestined

Everyone is born as pure souls, environmental, family, genetic and outer-issues determine these things, it wouldn't be completely correct to say it's completely predestined.

Eg. Your mother gets injured with bearing you as a child, you come out deformed. This is not predestined, it was cause and effect. Likewise one's family raises them in a different religion and masha'Allah they see the light of Islam, this proves free-will despite one's beginnings.

And Countries, are man-made borders,

but yes, the are some inescapable predeterminatory frameworks, death is one.

Was-Salaam

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Everyone is born as pure souls, environmental, family, genetic and outer-issues determine these things, it wouldn't be completely correct to say it's completely predestined.

how come birth is not predestined?

do we have a choise

i mean can we choose - i want to be born in so and so country, so and so family ,so and so religion....

but yes, the are some inescapable predeterminatory frameworks, death is one.

but if anybody commits suicide (god forbid) then is it free will or predestined? Edited by varun loves ahlulbayt

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how come birth is not predestined?

do we have a choise

i mean can we choose - i want to be born in so and so country, so and so family ,so and so religion....

No, we can't choose what country or family or religion we are born in, this is predestined.

but if anybody commits suicide (god forbid) then is it free will or predestined?

Free will since the person has gone and killed themself with their own choice, Allah (swt) never made them

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how come birth is not predestined?

do we have a choise

i mean can we choose - i want to be born in so and so country, so and so family ,so and so religion....

Naturally we don't have choice in those matters, what I meant by my reply is that your family makes you follow a religion, but you obviously have choice to follow that which you wish, you may have heart or respiratory problems, cancer even, these may be genetic as a result of actions of your forebearers, or some environmental encounter in your own life. The "country" that you are born in naturally depends upon the where your parents are at the time, if your mother is travelling abroad while pregnant with you between the period of 5 - 11 months (of pregnancy), then in all likelyhood you will be born abroad. The choice she made to travel has now affected you and may affect you even in the future, that doesn't necessarily mean destiny, it is the action / cause of one free agent upon another. If a woman chooses to drink while pregnant this may in likelyhood affect the quality of life of her unborn child, is that destiny? Ofcourse not. The woman will be answerable for her actions that impacted upon the child. If we may suffer injustices to the effect of this in our own lives, we can't always say "Allah has willed it," but we can't necessarily say it is not, we know Allah (SWT) tests man. Allah (SWT) won't act unjustly either, He will never give man a test or a burden which they cannot bear. If this was the case that He was giving someone such a hard burden that He knows that they would not be able to cope with and will definitely cause them to act wrongly, then this is again dhulm. Allah (SWT) won't do this.

but if anybody commits suicide (god forbid) then is it free will or predestined?

Let me put it this way, Allah (SWT) knows everything your'e going to do, but He didn't affect this outcome.

If He wills you can live, even if it be as a vegetable in hospital for the remainder of your life having no choice whatsoever.

The key importance here dear brother is understanding the difference between the actions of free agents or Allah's will.

Sometimes Allah (SWT) even uses free agents themselves (but not against their will) to test His other creatures.

Eg. Allah (SWT) "sent" (allowed) the Romans and Babylonians, powerful hosts to be as overlords of the Jewish people when they became haughty. The thing about it is that we don't know when we are being tested and when it is Allah's will, so we cannot make any pronouncements thereupon.

Was-Salaam

Edited by JawzofDETH

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i didnt get you what you meant by this statement

do you except the victim wont try to run away

what sabr and patience are you talking about

the girl is being raped man :mad:

I think what he is saying is not sabr and patience in the sense that she should not run away but in the sense that if, God forbid, she is unable to run away and the heinous deed does take place, the girl's test will now be to be patient and show sabr by not stop stopping to believe in God or committing, for example, suicide.

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Allah swt already knows what we do ..........because he is all knowing

but he doesnot interfere or influence us or our actions

but again iff he wants he can do that is the will of Allah

so it is free will + predestination

subanAllah

Yeah and so if a crime is committed, it's the will of Allah but not the wish/command of Allah. If Allah wills, no crime or sin on earth will be committed. A murderer appears to kill a person but actually this is Allah who takes the life of the one who gets murdered. Suicide bombers do not kill themselves and others but Allah kills them. No one can be born or die without the permission and will of Allah. Allah judges people from their intentions, from what is in their hearts.

I don't think a creation of Allah has the free will to do as they like. They may only have intentions for actions. Now this is Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala who makes things easy or difficult or even possible or impossible for them.

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