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In the Name of God بسم الله

Irfan Vs Tafkeek

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  • Advanced Member

I have a better idea: why don't we read books by maraja, mujtahids in irfan, and PhD holding scholars? These people have studied these works for decades. You guys read a paragraph or two and are ready to denounce someone a mushrik or a kafir.

Unbelievable.

Did you not see where I told you that lengthy works have been written by scholars attempting to prove Ibn Arabis tashayyu? Did you even try to find them? Or did you just ignore it and find a thread of people who know nothing and haven't even read one of his books calling him a Shia hater.

You guys are so stubborn. Proof is offered to you and you just completely ignore it. In a discussion, do you have any idea how rude that is and how arrogant it appears?

Edited by cc_30
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I have a better idea: why don't we read books by maraja, mujtahids in irfan, and PhD holding scholars? These people have studied these works for decades. You guys read a paragraph or two and are ready to denounce someone a mushrik or a kafir.

Unbelievable.

Did you not see where I told you that lengthy works have been written by scholars attempting to prove Ibn Arabis tashayyu? Did you even try to find them? Or did you just ignore it and find a thread of people who know nothing and haven't even read one of his books calling him a Shia hater.

You guys are so stubborn. Proof is offered to you and you just completely ignore it. In a discussion, do you have any idea how rude that is and how arrogant it appears?

I think you need to be selective on who you offer your proofs or arguments to.  Some people are simply not interested in "Irfan".  They don't feel the NEED for it in their lives.  And that is fine.  They are happy where they are.  Obviously you feel it very needful in your life.  

 

Also, Dabeast is only 15 years old.  Why bother arguing with a 15 year old? 

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I think you need to be selective on who you offer your proofs or arguments to.  Some people are simply not interested in "Irfan".  They don't feel the NEED for it in their lives.  And that is fine.  They are happy where they are.  Obviously you feel it very needful in your life.  

 

Also, Dabeast is only 15 years old.  Why bother arguing with a 15 year old? 

 

They are, of their own free will, coming into this thread and commenting on this issue, posting quotes, and even saying they have read Light Within Me. This clearly shows they are interested.

 

Sure, they may not "need" irfan in their lives, and I agree that that is fine. What is NOT fine, however, is to accuse individuals of kufr, shirk, or "Shia hating" when the accuser has not even properly studied the issue at hand. This is what the Wahhabis do, and to see our own doing it is disturbing, to say the least.

 

Regarding DaBeasts age, wow way to shoot the guy down! That's pretty rude of you to assume he can't discuss any issues just because of his age. I ultimately disagree with him, but he has brought some good questions (like tracking down the Fusus quote he did) and from his posts I would not have at all assumed he was 15. I've met 15 year olds far more mature and even knowledgeable than some 50 year olds, so to harp on his age is kind of silly. Let the brother debate and ask questions. How else will he learn?

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Regarding DaBeasts age, wow way to shoot the guy down! That's pretty rude of you to assume he can't discuss any issues just because of his age. I ultimately disagree with him, but he has brought some good questions (like tracking down the Fusus quote he did) and from his posts I would not have at all assumed he was 15. I've met 15 year olds far more mature and even knowledgeable than some 50 year olds, so to harp on his age is kind of silly. Let the brother debate and ask questions. How else will he learn?

Oh...don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good discussion with people of that age group, but for some reason I don't enjoy debating or arguing with them! Especially after making your points clearly.

But as long as you consider all this worth your time then great. Continue the good job. Let us see where this will go. :)

Edited by eThErEaL
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Oh...don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good discussion with people of that age group, but for some reason I don't enjoy debating or arguing with them! Especially after making your points clearly.

But as long as you consider all this worth your time then great. Continue the good job. Let us see where this will go. :)

 

I agree with you. I hate debating, and my preference has always been calm, focused, truth-seeking discussion. However, my temper rises when I see people doing the things that are happening in this thread. I don't want it to be this way, but what can we do? 

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Salam Alaikom all

 

God is known to be all great.  When we think of greatness, if we separate it from God, then God would be missing in perfection and greatness. This is one of the proofs offered in light within me by Imam Khomeini. He explicitly states to prove that all glory is God's and is not separate from him, we say that God is the possessor of all perfections.

 

It's logical, the more you think about it, the more clear it will become. Take for example goodness. If goodness of creation was totally separate from God and had no relationship to him, then there would be a type of goodness not found in God. This would mean God is not the maximum possible goodness.

 

So to be the greatest possible being, and as to not to limit him, you have to affirm him all greatness, glory, and beauty that can possibly exist.

 

As far as outer beauty in visual effects, remember, that God is the outward and inward, so everything is manifesting a beautiful mind, a mind that perceives beauty and is the expression of beauty itself.

 

All art, eloquence, etc, manifests mind, which God has the most greatest aspect. If some mind was separate from God, you would have again mind that is additional in glory to that of God's.

 

One proof I offered a few years back was that God is the maximum in existence and absolute infinity in life such that he can't be missing out on any life.  That would make all life his, and that would mean, life is not separate from him.

 

All pleasure exists in a higher realm form, and the highest realm of pleasure is the state of absolute oneness.

All beauty exists in a higher realm form, and the highest realm of beauty is the state of absolute oneness.

 

The absolute state of oneness is such that it's all loving, all kind, etc, which shows kindness, love, etc, have a higher form.

 

This how everything positive exists, it exists as a descent from the higher reality. Whoever can perceive this reality, can perceive God, as a living forcing in creation.

 

Being blind to this, is amount of being blind to God's active relationship with creation.

Edited by StrugglingForTheLight
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Salam Alaikom all

 

God is known to be all great.  When we think of greatness, if we separate it from God, then God would be missing in perfection and greatness. This is one of the proofs offered in light within me by Imam Khomeini. He explicitly states to prove that all glory is God's and is not separate from him, we say that God is the possessor of all perfections.

 

It's logical, the more you think about it, the more clear it will become. Take for example goodness. If goodness of creation was totally separate from God and had no relationship to him, then there would be a type of goodness not found in God. This would mean God is not the maximum possible goodness.

 

So to be the greatest possible being, and as to not to limit him, you have to affirm him all greatness, glory, and beauty that can possibly exist.

 

As far as outer beauty in visual effects, remember, that God is the outward and inward, so everything is manifesting a beautiful mind, a mind that perceives beauty and is the expression of beauty itself.

 

All art, eloquence, etc, manifests mind, which God has the most greatest aspect. If some mind was separate from God, you would have again mind that is additional in glory to that of God's.

 

One proof I offered a few years back was that God is the maximum in existence and absolute infinity in life such that he can't be missing out on any life.  That would make all life his, and that would mean, life is not separate from him.

 

All pleasure exists in a higher realm form, and the highest realm of pleasure is the state of absolute oneness.

All beauty exists in a higher realm form, and the highest realm of beauty is the state of absolute oneness.

 

The absolute state of oneness is such that it's all loving, all kind, etc, which shows kindness, love, etc, have a higher form.

 

This how everything positive exists, it exists as a descent from the higher reality. Whoever can perceive this reality, can perceive God, as a living forcing in creation.

 

Being blind to this, is amount of being blind to God's active relationship with creation.

These people really don't care about "logic", even though they would like to think they are being logical themselves.  So you cant really argue or debate with these guys.  It is like talking to a wall.  you just have to give up and forget about it.  All of what you said, for example, is not going to convince them even in the slightest way.  It is not even going to get them to think.  It have no affect on them whatsoever.  It is completely meaningless to them.   I find it surprising you guys are actually trying.        

Edited by eThErEaL
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I wonder how many Mansur Hallajs we have here in this thread. I'll advise against you lot becoming too arrogant and assuming you're privy to certain knowledges that other sincere students don't know. Your poetic faith seems very similar to how Malangs say "In shaa' `Ali," etc. They'll justify it, too.

Edited by NaveenHussain
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I wonder how many Mansur Hallajs we have here in this thread. I'll advise against you lot becoming too arrogant and assuming you're privy to certain knowledges that other sincere students don't know. Your poetic faith seems very similar to how Malangs say "In shaa' `Ali," etc. They'll justify it, too.

Hussain bin rooh had ordered to hang mansur lanti

i think i believe in God and i don't need this irfanism

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I wonder how many Mansur Hallajs we have here in this thread. I'll advise against you lot becoming too arrogant and assuming you're privy to certain knowledges that other sincere students don't know. Your poetic faith seems very similar to how Malangs say "In shaa' `Ali," etc. They'll justify it, too.

 

Where did we even imply we are "privy to certain knowledges" others don't know? On the contrary, I have shared videos, articles, book recommendations, etc in the hope that you all will actually study these issues and not make baseless accusations.

 

You were asked by several posters to back your claims about Light Within Me. You never did. I asked you to explain your background reading in the field several time, and you ignored me. This would be a perfect time to bring credit to your case, as it would show you have researched the field and therefore hold some weight in the discussion!

 

Yet we are in danger of becoming "too arrogant," making "assumptions," and having a "poetic faith"?

 

OK... :wacko:

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  • 11 months later...
  • Advanced Member

Wahdat al-Wujood seems to me very similar to the concept of the Catholics' Trinity. In reply to many of you who advise to read the scholars' books on the topic: sure, that can be done, but if you cannot answer, logically, after reading their books, what makes you think the books are credible? Some scholars may think they know, when they don't, which may lead to arrogance, as I see hinted in many Sufi teachings. 

 

Tell me about Ayatollah Khomeini's poem Irfan al-Ghazal. I'm thinking perhaps he let the arrogance get the best of him, hence WF Mutlaq, and killing many people [1988 mass murders, etc.]. Would you agree that if he found himself "enlightened" to such an extent, he may have seen God in himself, and done what he did, and it's all justified? Don't you see why I am concerned about this Wahdat al-Wujood as some Shia scholars believe?

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Wahdat al-Wujood seems to me very similar to the concept of the Catholics' Trinity. 

 

My problem with it is the lack of evidence for it in the Holy Qur'an (unless of course people resort to their own personal tafsir) and the ahadith of Ahlulbayt (as). And it's hard to believe in anything concerning the religion, unless it has its roots from the Thaqalayn.

 

 

 
عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي نَصْرٍ عَنْ مُثَنًّى عَنْ زُرَارَةَ قَالَ كُنْتُ عِنْدَ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ ع فَقَالَ لَهُ رَجُلٌ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكُوفَةِ يَسْأَلُهُ عَنْ قَوْلِ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع سَلُونِي عَمَّا شِئْتُمْ فَلَا تَسْأَلُونِّي عَنْ شَيْ‏ءٍ إِلَّا أَنْبَأْتُكُمْ بِهِ قَالَ إِنَّهُ لَيْسَ أَحَدٌ عِنْدَهُ عِلْمُ شَيْ‏ءٍ إِلَّا خَرَجَ مِنْ عِنْدِ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فَلْيَذْهَبِ النَّاسُ حَيْثُ شَاءُوا فَوَ اللَّهِ لَيْسَ الْأَمْرُ إِلَّا مِنْ هَاهُنَا وَ أَشَارَ بِيَدِهِ إِلَى بَيْتِهِ
From Zurārah said, I was with Abī Ja`far (عليه السلام) and a man from the people of al-Kūfa asked him about the saying of Amīr al-Mu’minīn (عليه السلام), ‘Salūnī (Ask me) whatever you wish, and you will not ask me about a thing except that I inform you of it’. He (عليه السلام) said: ‘No one has with him knowledge of a thing except that is comes from Amīr al-Mu’minīn (عليه السلام). So people can go wherever they desire, by Allāh, there is no authority (right) except from here, and he pointed with his hand to his house (i.e. Ahl al-Bayt (عليهم السلام))’
Source:
1.     Al-Kulaynī, Al-Kāfī, ed. `Alī Akbar al-Ghaffārī, 8 vols., (Tehran: Dār al-Kutub al-Islāmiyyah, 3rd Edition, 1388 AH), vol. 1, pg. 399, ḥadīth # 2
Grading:
1.     Al-Majlisī said this hadeeth is Ḥasan (Good)

à Mir’āt Al-`Uqūl, 26 vols., (Tehran: Dār al-Kutub al-Islāmiyyah, 1410 AH), vol. 4, pg. 308

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

(22) حدثني أبو جعفر أحمد بن محمد (ثقة) عن الحسن بن سعيد(ثقة) عن النضر بن سويد(ثقة) عن يحيى بن[عمران] الحلبي (ثقة) عن معلى بن عثمان (ثقة) عن أبي بصير(ثقة) عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال:

( قال لي: ان الحكم بن عتيبة ممن قال الله ومن الناس من يقول امنا بالله وباليوم الاخر وما هم بمؤمنين فليشرق الحكم وليغرب اما والله لا يصيب العلم الا من أهل بيت نزل عليهم جبرئيل عليه السلام )

* الحكم : صحيحة .

 

22 – Abu Ja`far Ahmad b. Muhammad (reliable) narrated to me from al-Hasan b. Sa`id (reliable) from an-Nadr b. Suwayd (reliable) from Yahya b. [`Imran] al-Halabi (reliable) from Mu`alla b. `Uthman (reliable) from Abu Baseer (reliable) from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام.  He said:

He said to me: al-Hakam b. `Utayba is about whom Allah said, “And from the people are those who say ‘We believe in Allah and in the Last Day’ but they are not at all believers.” (2:8) So let al-Hakam go east or go west, for by Allah, he will not get knowledge except from the Ahl al-Bayt upon whom Jibra’il عليه السلام descended.

Grading: sahih.

 

(23) حدثني السندي بن محمد ومحمد بن الحسين (كلاهما ثقة) عن جعفر بن بشير(ثقة) عن أبان بن عثمان (ثقة) عن أبي بصير(ثقة) قال:

( سألت أبا جعفر عليه السلام عن شهادة ولد الزنا تجوز قال لا فقلت ان الحكم بن عتيبة يزعم أنها تجوز فقال اللهم لا تغفر له ذنبه ما قال الله للحكم انه لذكر لك ولقومك وسوف تسئلون فليذهب الحكم يمينا وشمالا فوالله لا يوجد العلم الا من أهل بيت نزل عليهم جبرئيل)

* الحكم : صحيحة .

 

23 – as-Sindi b. Muhammad and Muhammad al-Husayn (both of them are reliable) narrated to me from Ja`far b. Bashir (reliable) from Aban b. `Uthman (reliable) from Abu Basir (reliable).  He said:

I asked Abu Ja`far عليه السلام if the testimony of a person born out of wedlock (walad az-zina) is permissible.  He said: No.  So I said: al-Hakam b. `Utayba claims that it is permissible.  So he said: O Allah, do not forgive his sin for him.  Allah did not denote al-Hakam with, ”verily it is a reminder for you and for your people, and soon they shall be asked” (43:44)  So let al-Hakam go right and left, for by Allah, knowledge will not be found but with the Ahl al-Bayt upon whom Jibra’il descended.

Grading: sahih.

 

(24) حدثنا أحمد بن محمد (ثقة) عن الحسن بن علي [ الوشاء] عن أبي إسحاق ثعلبة (ثقة) عن أبي مريم (ثقة قال: 

(قال أبو جعفر عليه السلام لسلمة بن كهيل والحكم بن عتيبة شرقا وغربا لن تجدا علما صحيحا الا شيئا يخرج من عندنا أهل البيت)

* الحكم : صحيحة .

 

24 – Ahmad b. Muhammad (reliable) from al-Hasan b. `Ali [al-Washsha’] from Abu Ishaq Tha`laba (reliable) from Abu Maryam (reliable).  He said: 

Abu Ja`far عليه السلام said to Salama b. Kuhayl and al-Hakam b. `Utayba: Go east or west – you will not find correct knowledge except that which that comes from us, the Ahl al-Bayt.

Grading: sahih.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/sahih-basair

 

 

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My problem with it is the lack of evidence for it in the Holy Qur'an (unless of course people resort to their own personal tafsir) and the ahadith of Ahlulbayt (as). And it's hard to believe in anything concerning the religion, unless it has its roots from the Thaqalayn.

are you saying there is something similar to God and or creation dose not depend on God?
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IMHO, Gnosticism has always been controversial in any religion that it has appeared as it implies human agency & therefore responsibility in achieving salvation among other things. Some people will react viscerally against any & all kinds of spirituality as it contradicts the simple formula approach : 'accept this statement as true & you'll be saved forever'. Look at the early Christian church for example - Gnosticism was eradicated & Gnostics were burnt at the stake for heresy in Europe as late as the 1600's along with witches. But when one reads some of the gnostic gospels it's clear that these are closer to Islam than the official Christian gospels.

Look at a guy like Ayatollah Behjat (God bless him) - who can deny that just by looking at him one can see that this was a saintly man that radiated sanctity?

There are many heresies but that doesn't meant that they're all part of an official doctrine of Irfan. Some explicitly state that what they're writing about is "Irfan" (maybe cuz it sells?) while some, like Allamah Majlisi appears to be at least overtly anti-Sufi while his writings are very "spiritual".

Sayyed Haydar Amuli's treatise I think is the first systematic incorporation of Ibn Arabi's ideas into a shi'i discourse & he shows how he hadiths already contain many of these ideas in them.

To me, irfan is not less legitimate than Kalam for example. It's just a human theory / methodology for making sense of the divine through revelation.

What is called Irfan is very similar to what the Bektashi's have based their whole order on.

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Sorry?

God is absolute perfect so nothing could be similar to him. That is wahdatul wujud one existence. Because if we say there is something else that is similar to God then there would be two existences. Now what about us? We'll mulla sadra believed everything created is in poverty and depends on God in every moment of their dependant existence therefore in simple terms God is the living and bestowes life creation depend on him for their provison. This is whadatul wujud and now can you show me where this is not in hadith and Quran? Or perhaps your issue is something to do with other notions like gradation? Edited by Rohani
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God is absolute perfect so nothing could be similar to him. That is wahdatul wujud one existence. Because if we say there is something else that is similar to God then there would be two existences. Now what about us? We'll mulla sadra believed everything created is in poverty and depends on God in every moment of their dependant existence therefore in simple terms God is the living and bestowes life creation depend on him for their provison. This is whadatul wujud and now can you show me where this is not in hadith and Quran? Or perhaps your issue is something to do with other notions like gradation?

 

Thank you brother but I asked for proof from the Holy Qur'an or Hadith.

 

A number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Khalid al-Barqi from his father from an-Nadr b. Suwayd from Yahya al-Halabi from Ibn Muskan from Zurara b. A`yan.
 
He said: I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلامsaying: Verily Allah is devoid of His creation and His creation is devoid of Him. And all upon which the name of “thing” befalls – apart from Allah – it is created. And Allah is the creator of everything. Blessed be the one who nothing is like unto Him. And He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 220)

(sahih) (صحيح)

 
`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from ibn Abi `Umayr from `Ali b. `Atiyya from Khaythama from Abu Ja`far عليه السلام.
 
He said: Verily, Allah is distinct from His creation, and His creation is different from Him. All that can be identified by the name “thing” apart from Allah تعالى is a creation; and Allah created all things. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 221)

(hasan) (حسن)

 

 

 

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-3/chapter-2

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Your hadith make no sense to use here. Wahdatul wujud dose not mean there is no creation. you can find proof in two places Quran and hadith. But if you really want I can give t verses to prove what I Said. But you must have read them namely that God is beyond comprehension and nothing is like him. as examples and the birds are held up by none but God.

There are also many hadith like one in tuhaf al uqul where imam Ali (AS) says the power by which we sit and stand belongs only to Allah. And there is no veil between God and his creation except creation as two examples to support what I said. You may find the last one in risalat wilaya by Allama tabatabai.

I should note that wahdatul wujud is not pantheism as pantheism says everything is identical to God. Wahdatul wujud is everything needs God and he is perfect beyond creation.

Thank you brother but I asked for proof from the Holy Qur'an or Hadith.

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/usul-kafi/book-3/chapter-2

Edited by Rohani
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Your hadith make no sense to use here. Wahdatul wujud dose not mean there is no creation. you can find proof in two places Quran and hadith. But if you really want I can give t verses to prove what I Said. But you must have read them namely that God is beyond comprehension and nothing is like him. as examples and the birds are held up by none but God.

There are also many hadith like one in tuhaf al uqul where imam Ali (as) says the power by which we sit and stand belongs only to Allah. And there is no veil between God and his creation except creation as two examples to support what I said. You may find the last one in risalat wilaya by Allama tabatabai.

I should note that wahdatul wujud is not pantheism as pantheism says everything is identical to God. Wahdatul wujud is everything needs God and he is perfect beyond creation.

 

I don't disagree with the bolded parts, but can you bring Qur'anic verses to support your opinion?

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