Homosexuality?

[hamza1892]

My friend and I had a discussion about gay and lesbians people. He told me that people are born being gay and it was scientific proven.. He also stated, that these people dont have a choice of being gay, so its kinda not there choice being attracted to same sex relationship and so why are they going to hell and sometimes people later in there life become gay.. I know homosexuality is absolutely haram... So how would i respond?

[Alejandro Sosa]

Even if it's true that they are born that way, which I believe does have a lot of truth behind it, they can still choose not to act on those impulses.

Some people grow up with a short temper as part of their personality, whether they choose to act on their anger or not is a different story.

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

Even if it's true that they are born that way, which I believe does have a lot of truth behind it, they can still choose not to act on those impulses.

Some people grow up with a short temper as part of their personality, whether they choose to act on their anger or not is a different story.

Those two traits are not even remotely analogous in terms of hardship. Try to think of a personality trait that makes it impossible to act on your sexual or emotional need for companionship for the rest of your life unless you want to be branded by hellfire.

Mix in a little bit of being ostracized, disappointed or potentially estranged family members (depending on family type), discrimination or execution (depending on government type), and perpetual stereotyping.

There, now you have an appropriate analogy. :dry:

Edited March 6, 2012 by Zahratul_Islam

[Guest Monad]

reply : unfortunately there are two sides two a coin and only one side wins.

[Chiddler]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdQlng_-Jog

This is a documentary about individuals who are pedophiles. Not something people usually try to empathize with. However, it is an important exercise in empathy by realizing that these people want to change their habits but cannot.

A lot of homosexuals are bullied by their peers. A lot of them wish desperately to change their sexual orientation to fit in. If it were a choice, how many people would desire such treatment? How many would remain homosexuals?

It's not a choice.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Chiddler

[Ruq]

^ I think you can say that it might be very difficult for a pedo to change their behaviour, you cant say they 'cannot'.

[baradar_jackson]

My friend and I had a discussion about gay and lesbians people. He told me that people are born being gay and it was scientific proven.. He also stated, that these people dont have a choice of being gay, so its kinda not there choice being attracted to same sex relationship and so why are they going to hell and sometimes people later in there life become gay.. I know homosexuality is absolutely haram... So how would i respond?

You can respond quite easily, actually.

As much as the "gay rights" movement has been successful in drowning out rational discourse and presenting their opponents as vile reactionaries, reason is at odds with them. Reason demystifies their every claim to legitimacy.

Firstly, is the issue of birth. To say someone is "born" gay is ridiculous on an observable level: being gay means to be attracted to the same sex, and babies are without sexual attractions at all. Sexual attraction is something that they develop later in life, and this is something that owes as much to natural factors as it does to social factors. So although there are certain individuals with a greater inclination toward being homosexual, these natural potentials must be harnessed, or else they will never be realized.

We know this, how? Well it's simple. We can observe societies where homosexuality was prevalent: in Sparta (and other Greek cities), amongst the people of the prophet Lut, in ancient Rome, etc...

In ancient Greece, it was a popular belief that "true love was only between men." They saw women as merely a means toward preserving the human race. In ancient Rome, one of the popular customs to commemorate the birthday of the sun god, was for men to get together, drink, and have sex with each other.

You would never imagine this, from listening to the gay rights slogans of today. Nowadays the slogan which is oft-repeated, is that "ten percent of the world is gay." If this is the case, why in those societies was the number so disproportionate? Was it something in the water? Or did social conditions lend to this? If social conditions lend to this, then homosexuality cannot be seen as merely a biological condition but also a reflection of social conditions.

And it's not just in ancient societies. Look today at the American prison system. When in the US, you mention "prison," you think of rape. When someone is afraid he is going to prison, what is the first thing he fears? Not the loss of freedom, not the separation from his family, but: "getting raped."

Gay marriage isn't a new thing. Gay marriage has existed in prison for decades. These prisoners who have sex with each other and actually even develop affection for each other; they had never been gay before they went to prison. So what are they? "Born-again gays?" No... In American society, where people are not really expected to repress their sexual desires, if they are placed in an environment where everyone is of the same sex, they will use the only outlet to those desires that is available to them (i.e. homosexuality).

Even by the admission of the gay movement itself, friends! What do they call themselves? "LGBT." What does the "B" stand for? Bisexual! I.e. someone who is inclined toward both sexes. What does this even mean??? Nothing. It means that this person is essentially normal, but society has mobilized the potentials in him/her for same-sex attraction. In a society where homosexuality is shunned entirely, there is no such thing as freggin "bisexuals."

Interestingly enough, some scientists who are proponents of the gay movement, declare that all individuals have some homosexual inclinations. In doing this they think they are establishing homosexuality as legitimate, when in fact they do the opposite! áæá

So we know that homosexuality is not simply a phenomenon occurring in nature, but also a social phenomenon.

Tayyeb. But what if, it is simply a natural phenomenon, unaided by any social factors? Does this make it acceptable, or more acceptable?

The pedophilia example is a good one. Pedophiles also have a natural inclination toward young children; perhaps due to some sort of genetic mutation or whatever... Does that make it acceptable? Now you may say: "Homosexuality is between two consenting adults." Firstly, that's not entirely true: in many societies where homosexuality is not accepted, homosexuals rape young boys. (In Saudi Arabia, for example, this is a widespread practice). Secondly, even if it is between consenting adults, it does not justify it as a practice. What about brother-sister incest? What if a brother and sister have a "natural" inclination toward each other, and they are both mature adults capable of rational decision-making? Does this become an accepted practice (either in the eyes of society, or in objective morals)? No. And in fact, incest is something which is shunned by every human society.

So what difference does it make, that the inclination toward the same sex is natural or not natural? What sets it apart from any other mutation or neurosis? I.e. What sets it apart from psychosis? What sets it apart from strange fetishes? What sets it apart from any hereditary disease? Diabetes is hereditary; meaning, some are more genetically disposed to it than others. Should we encourage diabetes? Should diabetics be allowed to eat as many desserts as they want?

I hope you can see how ridiculous this proposition is!

And in fact, looking at this, one can't be surprised that within the gay movement itself, there is dispute. Some gays do not want to keep propagating this "born gay" idea, because they (rightfully) feel it leaves the door open for the above critcisms. The logical fallacy of this argument has been cloaked only by the suppression of rational discourse. But any rational person can see these facts and question the official narrative. Thus, the gays who are against the "born gay" narrative like to refer to it as a lifestyle choice. If they refer to it in this way, a liberal society will invariably let them do whatever they want. A liberal society will say: This doesn't hurt anyone, so it should be allowed. But with the "born gay" logic, even a liberal society could one day say: This is an illness. Thus, it is not subject to "rights."

The only thing setting homosexuality apart from any other disease or mutation, is that the fruitcakes have a political voice, they have the cultural apparatus of the world (i.e. Hollywood) behind them, and they have skillfully used the legal system in order to scare people (hiding behind concepts such as "hate speech" and "hate crimes").

Everything else is plainly observable I am sure you would agree.

Ya Ali

[5a49]

No people aren't born gay. That is wrong, and its not scientifically proven that they are born gay.

It is scientifically proven some people have mistakes in Chromosomes, where it means you are female, but in a males body or something like that, or a female thinks she is female until she becomes 13 or so she founds out she has a penis, but before it wasn't showing it was inside. Things like these happen, and in that case, there is the fatwa, where these exact people can change their gender.

But being a homosexual, isn't something a person is born with. Think about it logically, could Allah (swt) make something Haram, and then make you born with it? That destroys the fact of Allah being just with human beings (istaghfarullah).

[Ace Abbas]

In my personal opinion, yes, homosexuality is a natural course. People can't choose their sexuality.

We all know that Allah forbids homosexual adultery. But if there are no homosexual people in this world, why would Allah forbids homosexual adultery then?

Same goes to zina. Allah forbids zina. But if there are no straight people in this world, why would Allah forbids zina?

Homosexuality is just a desire. It's the same as the desire to drink alcohol, the desire to swear, the desire to do this and that.

It's not wrong to become homosexual. But it is wrong when you perform homosexual acts/adultery.

This is just my opinion.

[Guest]

Well there are studies to show that its due to a fault gene but i guess the acceptance and prevalence in this 'free' society has only encouraged people to do what they want to. I dont think its as common in countries that oppose homosexuality but in the West its now acceptable so more and more people engage in acts of homosexuality because they live in a society that preeches following ones desires

Edited March 10, 2012 by AlHamdulillah110

[MadeehaBatool23]

Even if they are born like that, they can choose how to behave. No one is forced to act in a certain way.

Edited March 10, 2012 by MadeehaBatool23

[Lanatin]

Well there are studies to show that its due to a fault gene but i guess the acceptance and prevalence in this 'free' society has only encouraged people to do what they want to. I dont think its as common in countries that oppose homosexuality but in the West its now acceptable so more and more people engage in acts of homosexuality because they live in a society that preeches following ones desires

Mind showing us these studies you speak of?

[Ace Abbas]

Even if they are born like that, they can choose how to behave. No one is forced to act in a certain way.

This is what I was trying to say. Haha.

[Baka]

Read:

http://www.cwfa.org/.../bornorbred.pdf

I quickly read through this, I am not sure If the writer is credible or what not. I hope someone else can look into it.

Edit: This document argues that science does not support the claim that homosexuality is genetics.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Aghachan

[Guest]

Mind showing us these studies you speak of?

i asked a friend to recommend me some studies on it since she told me its to do with a faulty chromosome or something. I still dont agree with the practice though, and if it is true then its a test to keep the desire under control and to refrain from acting on it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/the-gay-gene-is-back-on-the-scene-1536770.html

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jtiUvdDlTboC&pg=PA106&dq=research+on+homosexuality&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hL9bT6vcIIHA0QX1qey3DQ&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090713/jsp/knowhow/story_11225418.jsp

once again i am not advocating for it, im just saying that there are studies that suggest its natural to some people, but society encourages people to act on their desires.

[Dawud1UK]

Salam,

I don't believe people are naturally born homosexual. The influence on your sexuality is more of a nurture factor in my opinion. Like seriously, there have been reports made that some of us are born with a "criminal" gene and that is why we have some anti-social individuals in our society.... This homosexual gene if anything is a way to give an excuse for homosexuality in being acceptable in our society and to allow integration. They should be trying to find a cure rather than blaming it on nature. Also aren't most scientists atheist anyway? So by blaming it on nature it suits them. (Just a possibility, although I think I may be stereotypical).

Reading, speaking and walking and so many other behaviours are influenced by nurture, these are learned behaviours by our environment. Ofc some of you may argue that genetics plays a role and it does in terms of that some individuals are better readers or better speakers although this is a question of intelligence. If you kept a child in a empty room since birth, and this child was completely isolated from the outside world, never taught this child anything, would this child be able to speak? read? walk? I think homosexuality fits into the same category as a behaviour you learn.

[Ace Abbas]

Salam,

I don't believe people are naturally born homosexual. The influence on your sexuality is more of a nurture factor in my opinion. Like seriously, there have been reports made that some of us are born with a "criminal" gene and that is why we have some anti-social individuals in our society.... This homosexual gene if anything is a way to give an excuse for homosexuality in being acceptable in our society and to allow integration. They should be trying to find a cure rather than blaming it on nature. Also aren't most scientists atheist anyway? So by blaming it on nature it suits them. (Just a possibility, although I think I may be stereotypical).

Reading, speaking and walking and so many other behaviours are influenced by nurture, these are learned behaviours by our environment. Ofc some of you may argue that genetics plays a role and it does in terms of that some individuals are better readers or better speakers although this is a question of intelligence. If you kept a child in a empty room since birth, and this child was completely isolated from the outside world, never taught this child anything, would this child be able to speak? read? walk? I think homosexuality fits into the same category as a behaviour you learn.

You just don't understand them because you're not gay. There are many gay people out there who really want to be straight. But they just don't know how and they can't change their feelings in seconds. Try to get into their communities and try to listen to their problems. Insha Allah you'll understand.

[Dawud1UK]

You just don't understand them because you're not gay. There are many gay people out there who really want to be straight. But they just don't know how and they can't change their feelings in seconds. Try to get into their communities and try to listen to their problems. Insha Allah you'll understand.

Brother just because your not something it don't mean you can't understand it. That's like saying you will never understand other cultures because you come from one specific culture? Yet we do understand other culture, this point isn't relevant in terms of your sexuality, although nevertheless it displays a similar scenario. Also just because your not a dog you won't understand it or why it displays specific behaviours.

I'm sure that there are many people that want to be straight, and I'm not denying that. Although there are majority that have "come out of the closet" and are proud to be who they are and are living together and stuff. No-one is expecting a change to happen within seconds, it takes a long-time to unlearn a behaviour you learned or a habit, however it can be done. Whether homosexuality is a psychological factor which could be solved with cognitive therapy or just trying to abstain from that defective mentality then it can all be done in my view. There have been many studies that have shown how individuals are able to unlearn behaviours. Lets take for example having a phobia of snakes, this is a feeling that individuals may display, now if they spend time around snakes or they begin to understand them, and in time the individual is likely to be able to be around snakes.

Regarding your point about going into their communities, what do you mean? I actually have a homosexual friend that I know and I speak to him. Although this is only a individual so I wouldn't be able to generalise his experiences to the general homosexual population. Although one point that I found was that he was told to just accept who he is and just be who he is. I'm pretty sure all homosexuals are told this. So if there are people telling homosexual individuals that its fine that they are homosexual and stuff. Then how can we expect them to try and change? If they are accepted by the society then why would some of them want to become straight? When becoming straight could be a long and tiring goal to achieve? If a mother tells her child that it's fine to be homosexual, do you really think the child will strive to become straight, your mother someone who you respect so highly.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that we should kill or attack or abuse homosexuals just because of who they are, they are humans just like everyone of us. Although we shouldn't rather try and help them lead normal lives.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Dawud1UK

[Dawud1UK]

^ Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that we should kill or attack or abuse homosexuals just because of who they are, they are humans just like everyone of us. Although we should rather try and help them lead normal lives. (CORRECTION).

[Ace Abbas]

^ Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that we should kill or attack or abuse homosexuals just because of who they are, they are humans just like everyone of us. Although we should rather try and help them lead normal lives. (CORRECTION).

Good intention. But the problem is, how? People keep saying that "homosexuality is a sin!", "homosexuals will be in Hellfire!", "we should demolish homosexuals!" etc etc. When people keep saying these, those homosexuals who are in need are afraid to express their problems and they would think that no one will ever want to help them. In fact, they would think that those people will only destroy them, kill them etc etc. They would also have mental and emotional problems when people say that they'll go to Hellfire even though they do takhalli and tahalli. So, how would these homosexuals be helped?

[Dawud1UK]

Good intention. But the problem is, how? People keep saying that "homosexuality is a sin!", "homosexuals will be in Hellfire!", "we should demolish homosexuals!" etc etc. When people keep saying these, those homosexuals who are in need are afraid to express their problems and they would think that no one will ever want to help them. In fact, they would think that those people will only destroy them, kill them etc etc. They would also have mental and emotional problems when people say that they'll go to Hellfire even though they do takhalli and tahalli. So, how would these homosexuals be helped?

I agree with you on the actions people take which are far from helpful. Although the only way they could be helped is with therapy possibly? Trying to find out when during their childhood or adulthood they realized that they feel affectionate to the same sex? Although there are no magic cures, it takes will power.

[md. ammar ali]

HARAAAM

[Ace Abbas]

I agree with you on the actions people take which are far from helpful. Although the only way they could be helped is with therapy possibly? Trying to find out when during their childhood or adulthood they realized that they feel affectionate to the same sex? Although there are no magic cures, it takes will power.

Yeah, will power. But will power is only to reduce the feelings that they have. Have you heard of the conversion therapy? These gay people who want to become straight will undergo conversion therapy for a certain period of time. It works though. But this therapy actually doesn't change them straight. In fact, this therapy only reduce their feelings of homosexuality. There is no cure to change a gay person's sexuality so far. Only miracle can do that.

HARAAAM

Well, this is an obvious proof that people don't understand the difference between homosexuality and homosexual acts.

[hamza1892]

Thank you everyone for you response, I really appreciate it :)

[ShiaBen]

What's quite funny is China is one of the countries around the world that has a small homosexual population.

So this tells you something about the impact of culture and socialization processes.

[Salim00282]

Salaam,

How would I respond to people who claim that Prophet Lut's story was actually condemning rape rather than homosexuality?