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Faatima_ki_kaneez

Is This Shirk

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I just listened to it. Although my Urdu isn't THAT good (I can converse fluently though), I didn't think there was any shirk in there.

He is just talking from the point of view of Imam Ali's (as) sword.

Maybe if you point out some of the lines that you think are dodgy, it would be helpful.

Edited by Replicant

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I just listened to it. Although my Urdu isn't THAT good (I can converse fluently though), I didn't think there was any shirk in there.

He is just talking from the point of view of Imam Ali's (as) sword.

my question was speficifally towards a line where he says "khuda kay haath mein rehna ki mujko aadat hai." Before he says that "khuda nai noor ki aatish mein mujko dhala hai..."

now, if he is using the same words for both, is this not shirk to say that for Imam Ali?

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my question was speficifally towards a line where he says "khuda kay haath mein rehna ki mujko aadat hai." Before he says that "khuda nai noor ki aatish mein mujko dhala hai..."

now, if he is using the same words for both, is this not shirk to say that for Imam Ali?

Maybe it's because Imam Ali (as) is described as the eye of Allah, light of Allah and the hand of Allah.

I don't really understand the last part but wasn't Imam Ali created from noor and noor shown from his (as) forehead? It could have something to do with that.

There is another manqabat called Haider hun mein Haider...some of that one sounds like shirk to me

Edited by IluvAllah

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Maybe it's because Imam Ali (as) is described as the eye of Allah, light of Allah and the hand of Allah.

I don't really understand the last part but wasn't Imam Ali created from noor and noor shown from his (as) forehead? It could have something to do with that.

There is another manqabat called Haider hun mein Haider...some of that one sounds like shirk to me

Haider hun mein haider mir hassan mir says is a part of a speech Imam Ali actually gave. However, my mom and I were debating about the zulfiquar manaqabat and couldn't come to a consensus. So, I said I'd ask you guys and have a tie breaker.

Edited by Faatima_ki_kaneez

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Haider hun mein haider is also another one that might cross the line. However, my mom and were debating about the zulfiquar manaqabat and couldn't come to a consensus. So, I said I'd ask you guys and have a tie breaker.

What does that line mean? khuda nai noor ki aatish mein mujko dhala hai..."

Yes...He has this line where he says "Tasveer banata hun mein madar ke shikam mein"

?! That line was strange

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What does that line mean? khuda nai noor ki aatish mein mujko dhala hai..."

Yes...He has this line where he says "Tasveer banata hun mein madar ke shikam mein"

?! That line was strange

By noor ki aatish, he means Zulfiquar (as) was created of noor.

Maybe this will help you (Translation of Haider hoon mein haider in english).

I am Haider!

Ali used to say this on a Mimbar in Kufa

I am Haider!

Why is the world stunned by hearing about my miracles?

I am Haider!

Why would the sun not turn back on my command?

Why would the stars not descend on my command?

I am the one who lights them with my light and I can turn them into

darkness...

I am Haider!

I am unseen... and the world doesn’t realize this

I am not limited by a name of this world

I am solely and truly understood by Allah (swt) the Great

I am Haider!

Allah’s mercy has been rested upon me

Allah (swt) has sworn about my coming in the Quran

I am flowing through the Quran with all of it’s words.

I am Haider!

The permission for this has been solely given to me

To see this live and the hereafter

On this, Allah (swt) has solely trusted me.

I am Haider!

If I’m killed I still won’t die

Even if death comes to me 100 times I still won’t die

Death is helpless in front of me

I am Haider!

When the Prophet SAW reached the highest point of Meraj

He came just to be reintroduced to me

I wanted to reveal to the world who I truly am,

I am Haider!

A mother gave this loving advice to her loved one,

“May you fight several battles and die but make sure you don’t fight

the one... who comes to the battle field saying: ‘I am Haider!’”

Who are you trying to scare by showing your strength?

It was men amongst you who ran away from the battle against me

Oh you people who distinguish between lovers, I am no regular man... I

am Haider!

Allah’s mercy has been rested upon me

Allah (swt) has sworn about my coming in the Quran

I am flowing through the Quran with all of it’s words.

I am Haider!

If I’m killed I still won’t die

Even if death comes to me 100 times I still won’t die

Death is helpless in front of me

I am Haider!

I swear I’m not what people think I am

You can consider me everything but Allah (swt)

The Lord is the Greater one, that quality is instilled in my son Akbar

I am Haider!

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(bismillah)

(salam)

"Hand of Allah" means servant of Allah or slave of Allah. It means Imam Ali AS would only do what Allah SWT wills.

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By noor ki aatish, he means Zulfiquar (as) was created of noor.

Maybe this will help you (Translation of Haider hoon mein haider in english).

I am Haider!

Ali used to say this on a Mimbar in Kufa

I am Haider!

Why is the world stunned by hearing about my miracles?

I am Haider!

Why would the sun not turn back on my command?

Why would the stars not descend on my command?

I am the one who lights them with my light and I can turn them into

darkness...

I am Haider!

I am unseen... and the world doesn’t realize this

I am not limited by a name of this world

I am solely and truly understood by Allah (swt) the Great

I am Haider!

Allah’s mercy has been rested upon me

Allah (swt) has sworn about my coming in the Quran

I am flowing through the Quran with all of it’s words.

I am Haider!

The permission for this has been solely given to me

To see this live and the hereafter

On this, Allah (swt) has solely trusted me.

I am Haider!

If I’m killed I still won’t die

Even if death comes to me 100 times I still won’t die

Death is helpless in front of me

I am Haider!

When the Prophet SAW reached the highest point of Meraj

He came just to be reintroduced to me

I wanted to reveal to the world who I truly am,

I am Haider!

A mother gave this loving advice to her loved one,

“May you fight several battles and die but make sure you don’t fight

the one... who comes to the battle field saying: ‘I am Haider!’”

Who are you trying to scare by showing your strength?

It was men amongst you who ran away from the battle against me

Oh you people who distinguish between lovers, I am no regular man... I

am Haider!

Allah’s mercy has been rested upon me

Allah (swt) has sworn about my coming in the Quran

I am flowing through the Quran with all of it’s words.

I am Haider!

If I’m killed I still won’t die

Even if death comes to me 100 times I still won’t die

Death is helpless in front of me

I am Haider!

I swear I’m not what people think I am

You can consider me everything but Allah (swt)

The Lord is the Greater one, that quality is instilled in my son Akbar

I am Haider!

...no comment

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...no comment

??

(bismillah)

(salam)

"Hand of Allah" means servant of Allah or slave of Allah. It means Imam Ali AS would only do what Allah SWT wills.

My mom wouldn't beleive me. she's convinced that I shouldn't listen to him because she thinks his manaqabats contain shirk.

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my question was speficifally towards a line where he says "khuda kay haath mein rehna ki mujko aadat hai." Before he says that "khuda nai noor ki aatish mein mujko dhala hai..."

now, if he is using the same words for both, is this not shirk to say that for Imam Ali?

There is general practice among the poets to speak in innuendos (zoo maani) and also to exaggerate (mubalgha) their subject matter to bring the point home effectively. I haven't listened it to the end but from the lines you quoted, the first one is an allusion to Imam Ali as "hand of Allah'. On the face of it, it seems that the poet is calling Imam Ali as Allah but this is not what is intended here.

Poetic exaggeration (mubalgha aaraaii) can go a long way. For example I have heard qasidas in which Hazrat Abbas is referred to as "wafa ka Khuda", ie, God of Loyalty. This, again, is far from shirk. If people are not familiar with the tradition and styles of our Urdu (and Persian) poetry, they are going to misunderstand these poems. The key is not to interpret poetry literally.

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My mom wouldn't beleive me. she's convinced that I shouldn't listen to him because she thinks his manaqabats contain shirk.

(bismillah)

(salam)

If these words bother your mom, then don't play this loud enough that she can hear it. Use earphones or just decide not to play it at all. Allah will bless you for honoring your mother's wishes. InshaAllah

Poetic exaggeration (mubalgha aaraaii) can go a long way. For example I have heard qasidas in which Hazrat Abbas is referred to as "wafa ka Khuda", ie, God of Loyalty. This, again, is far from shirk. If people are not familiar with the tradition and styles of our Urdu (and Persian) poetry, they are going to misunderstand these poems. The key is not to interpret poetry literally.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Imam Hussain AS is called "Thar Allah" (Blood of God) and nobody misinterprets that. He gave his blood for Allah. The Supreme Sacrifice.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

If these words bother your mom, then don't play this loud enough that she can hear it. Use earphones or just decide not to play it at all. Allah will bless you for honoring your mother's wishes. InshaAllah

I'm trying to stop listening to music, so I've started listening to his manaqabats. I was hoping she would understand if it's coming from a bunch of different people. oh well. thanks to everyone. :)

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Yes...He has this line where he says "Tasveer banata hun mein madar ke shikam mein"

?! That line was strange

I am not sure where you are hearing this line. I heard both the manqabats (twice) but I didn't find that.

Anyhow, wherever it is from, this is a line attributed to Imam `Ali (a) in a khuTbah of his, which has been deemed inauthentic by all prominent `ulamaa' and seems to have penetrated our books from the Sufiyyah.

Maybe this will help you (Translation of Haider hoon mein haider in english).

I find the translation is not very good. In addition to that, I listened to the manqabat here:

and found that it is not in order.

Anyhow, as Marbles stated, there is often a lot of mubalighah in Urdu poetry - you could have it in any poetry as well as prose as long as it doesn't reach the bounds of blasphemy - and people who don't understand it and don't want to understand it either should not be poking their noses into such matters.

Other than that, there is absolutely no doubt in their wilayah over the takwiniyyah, in the sense of creation having to do their bidding when commanded, NOT in the sense of their running the Universe. People who cannot digest this should deny any and every "miracle" attributed to them and go find themselves a place anywhere besides the Imami Shi`ah madhhab.

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I am not sure where you are hearing this line. I heard both the manqabats (twice) but I didn't find that.

Anyhow, wherever it is from, this is a line attributed to Imam `Ali (a) in a khuTbah of his, which has been deemed inauthentic by all prominent `ulamaa' and seems to have penetrated our books from the Sufiyyah.

I find the translation is not very good. In addition to that, I listened to the manqabat here:

and found that it is not in order.

Anyhow, as Marbles stated, there is often a lot of mubalighah in Urdu poetry - you could have it in any poetry as well as prose as long as it doesn't reach the bounds of blasphemy - and people who don't understand it and don't want to understand it either should not be poking their noses into such matters.

Other than that, there is absolutely no doubt in their wilayah over the takwiniyyah, in the sense of creation having to do their bidding when commanded, NOT in the sense of their running the Universe. People who cannot digest this should deny any and every "miracle" attributed to them and go find themselves a place anywhere besides the Imami Shi`ah madhhab.

Yeah, i found the translation online, and it conveyed the basic point of the manaqabaat, which is what iluvAllah needed, so it worked. I couldn't find another translation and my urdu is no where near good enough to translate it myself.

Many people do feel that some of his poetry does reach the bounds of shirk. And, the miracles of Imam Ali (as) are so astounding that sometimes it becomes a very blury and fine line people must walk between what is appropriate or not.

In such matters, I don't think we can call it simply mubalighah in the poetry. Even if it is, it still cannot cross the line of shirk, even if it is poetic exageration to make a point. However, u probably have more experience with reading urdu poetry, so i'll defer to your statement.

You say "people who don't understand it and don't want to understand it either should not be poking their noses into such matters."

I don't know what has annoyed you or you just woke up on the wrong side of the bed, but I'm asking to clarify a debate I was having with my mother. Now, if asking for the sake of clarification means we "should not be poking their noses into such matters" then Shia Chat would not exist, except for one or two self-righteous threads.

perhaps I am just sensing hostility that is not there, in which case thanks for your reply and sorry for the accusation. However, if you are being hostile and trying to be rude, I would appreciate it if you don't reply to my posts in the future. I know that many people don't mind hostile responces on SC, but I will not. I want people to disagree with me, but you can do it without being rude. Thanks a lot.

Edited by Faatima_ki_kaneez

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