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Zane

Are Alawi Considered Shia?

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they are not 'Sunni Sufis' don't worry

What's wrong if they are Shia Sufi anyway? What makes Sunni Sufis and Shia Sufis different? I thought Shia also have their own turuq like Bektashi order and Ni'matullahi order.

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Actually, I think you have done a bit of misquoting in the Wikipedia article you gave. The article you gave is about Alevis, while the topic is about Alawis; both of them, although similar, are different sects!

Salam

my post was about 'bakhtashi alevi sufis' they have also belief that has to do with 'Allah Muhammad Ali' :)

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Salam

my post was about 'bakhtashi alevi sufis' they have also belief that has to do with 'Allah Muhammad Ali' :)

Ok, I have not read the whole thread so I was just commenting because the Alawis mentioned in the title are different from what you pasted. I am sorry for the mistake! :D

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What's wrong if they are Shia Sufi anyway? What makes Sunni Sufis and Shia Sufis different? I thought Shia also have their own turuq like Bektashi order and Ni'matullahi order.

Well I did not say that there is something wrong with someone :)

Some of them don't even recognize themselves as muslims but they see them self as member of other religion

Ok, I have not read the whole thread so I was just commenting because the Alawis mentioned in the title are different from what you pasted. I am sorry for the mistake! :D

no problem such things happens :)

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Some of them don't even recognize themselves as muslims but they see them self as member of other religion

What do you mean by this? :mellow: They still believe in the kalimah tayyibah la ilaha illallah, muhammadur rasulullah, right?

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What do you mean by this? :mellow: They still believe in the kalimah tayyibah la ilaha illallah, muhammadur rasulullah, right?

Not sure about that, some of them believe also in 5 elements water... fire... and so on...

This can help

http://www.alevi.dk/ENGELSK/Turkish_Alevis_Today.pdf

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I don't know much about Alevi Shia. Thanks for the link.

If you don't mind, can you clarify this video, please?

There is truth in video but not all truth

and yes they have been persecuted by sunnis a long time even this days also

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Alright everybody. This is the latest news, 25 june 2012

The committee in Lebanon officially tasked with investigating the fate of Imam Musa Sadr denied that the body recently found in Libya belongs to Sadr.

According to a report carried by Al-Intiqad Daily, the committee issued a statement on Saturday, June 23, rejecting the recent remarks by head of Libya’s National Transitional Council Mustafa Abdul Jalil.

Abdul Jalil earlier this week said that Imam Musa Sadr’s body and remnants of his clothes have been found in Libya.

“We have discovered a mass grave and believe Imam Musa Sadr’s body might be among the bodies found there,” he said.

The committee said while it believes Sadr is alive, at the request of the Libyan side, it took part in carrying out DNA tests to determine whether the claim that the body belongs to Sadr is correct.

According to the committee, the outcome of the tests proved to contradict the claim.

Imam Musa Sadr and his two companions Sheikh Muhammad Yaqub and Abbas Badreddin disappeared in Libya in 1978 during a visit to the country. There have been a lot of efforts to determine their fate in the past three decades, efforts that have intensified since the fall of the former Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi.

http://www.shafaqna.com/english/shafaq/item/4176-body-found-in-libya-does-not-belong-to-musa-sadr.html

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Sellamu Aleykum brothers and sisters,

An answer to the the question if Alavi’s are shia or not. And some answer to what I red.

First of all, Alavi’s belief in Allah u Teala and his messenger Muhammed (SAV) and in Ehlilbeyt. Ans we believe and read the holy Koran.

Alavi’s are totally against the behaviours of Bakir, Umar , Osman, Muaviye and Yezid.

The name Alavi means the house of Ali (SA).

Alavi’s are praying and having matem in Muarrem month to like as a real follower of Ehlilbeyt should.

We don’t believe in reincarnation we belief in Cennet and Cehenem. We live to the final destination and hope to come in Cennet. Inshallah.

Alavi’s doing one more thing that Shia’s doesn’t do. That is the come together and turn around in a circle in tans. During this ceremony sister and brothers are coming together to zikr Allah, Muhammed (SAV) and Ehlibeyt. (as). The tell stories about our Prohpet and Ehlibeyt and cry for the them. This happens every Thursday’s because all the angels, Ehlibeyt and our Prophet want to ziyaret Imam Hussein.

The reason why two sex come together is that when we die, front of the door the angels won’t ask us what our sex is. The angels will only look what we did as Insan human and not as women or men. During the ceremony everyone calls each other Jhan or brother or sister. In a ceremony can only come some selected persons that didn’t commit any hak of another human.

I Hope that I informed you all and sufficient brothers and sisters.

It is Muharrem, Inshalla our tears won’t stop this month for Imam Hussein. Lebbeik Ya Hussein!

Cemil

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??? I thought they are shia but by looks of it some of you dont consider them muslims?? I thought ISLAMIC republic of iran supports them? Does the government of iran support non muslims against muslims?? So much for the shia islamic crescent i oftenly used to hear on press tv and so much for the ISLAM in the republic who support non muslims

Iran supports every group against Israel, this is what their leader said. and it has never supported Assad against the people of Syria and this was Iran who always insisted on republic and reform even in Syria. we should not get confused. the point is not that the government of Syria is muslim or not, or it is democratic or not. the point is that the terrorism in Syria is supported by Israel. and this is Israel behind the scene to make muslims kill each other. Israel wants to swallow middle east Israel wants to ruin Islam. so they do not say Alawites_Salafism war but they say Shia_Sunni war to make a great conflict between muslims and the winner is just Israel.

more over every exaggeration about Ali ibn Abi Talib is shirk and it is not right. but they are a branch Shia. Ghollat.   

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Iran supports every group against Israel, this is what their leader said. and it has never supported Assad against the people of Syria and this was Iran who always insisted on republic and refo even in Syria. we should not get confused. the point is not that the government of Syria is muslim or not, or it is democratic or not. the point is that the terrorism in Syria is supported by Israel. and

this is Israel behind the scene to make muslims kill each other. Israel wants to swallow middle east Israel wants to ruin Islam. so they do not say Alawites_Salafism war but they say Shia_Sunni

war to make a great conflict between muslims and the winner is just Israel.

more over every exaggeration about Ali ibn Abi Talib is shirk and it is not right. but they are a branch Shia. Ghollat.

Totally agree with you

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First off, there are a lot of misconceptions here about Alawites. In reality there is a lot of confusion about what they believe because their lack of hierarchical organization and secretive nature, so please do not make judgements about a group of people you do not understand, even if you disagree with them in nature.

Secondly, please do not become like some Sunnis and the Salafis and start making claims on who is Muslim and who is not, especially when a group themselves claim to be Muslim. This is not up to you. At the very least follow what our learned scholars say. Our scholars (unlike the scholarship of many  other sects) are at least trustworthy. Use this to your advantage.

Edited by mac33c

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It really depends on how you define "Muslim" and "Shi`a". No two `Alawis are identical in belief or practice. The religion is one that has evolved and changed, and this is due to a few factors.

 

Firstly, most `Alawis are very secular, and many can even be considered deists and atheists. They'll see `Alawism more as an identity than an Islamic sect, almost like a tribe or a class.

 

Secondly, the `Alawi teachings are secret - women are not allowed to be formally taught the religion (but some find out anyway), and men under the age of 40 are also generally not exposed to the religion - and so most of the population grow up without really knowing the specific teachings of the sect.

 

And that leads to point #3: modern `Alawis are influenced by other Muslim and non-Muslim denominations. Prior to the past century, `Alawis adopted many Christian practices, such as the commemorations of Christmas and Easter, the eating of bread and wine, etc. In the last century, Hafez al-Assad advised the `Alawis to behave like "regular Muslims" (i.e. the Sunnis of Syria), and so some adopted things like Hajj, the fasting of Ramadan, etc. In traditional `Alawism, fasting and Hajj were abandoned and understood metaphorically. More recently, with the growing alliance between Iran and Syria, some `Alawis began shifting towards Shiism as opposed to Sunnism. Syria is a place with very few Shi`is, and so the propagation of Shiism among `Alawis has been headed mostly by Iranian missionaries, Lebanese scholars, and Iraqis that have moved to Syria in the last few decades. The reunion of Shi`as and Alawis have brought interest in Islam to some `Alawis, and so some actually become Twelvers, or some kind of blend.

 

Here are some controversial beliefs associated with `Alawism. Again, with the secular and Islamic (Sunni/Shia) influences in recent decades, some of these beliefs were abandoned by some `Alawis. But here's a few things traditional `Alawism teaches:

  • Imam `Ali is is the divine embodiment of God on Earth.
  • Reincarnation, and a type of "nirvana" after the cycle of reincarnation ends.
  • The pillars and laws of Islam are not necessary - salat, zakat, sawm, Hajj, abstaining from forbidden acts and substances, etc.
  • Muhammad b. Nusayr was a prophet and representative of the 12th Imam.
  • Commemoration of Christian holidays

They are not to be mistaken with the Alevis of Turkey. Anyway, a lot of the above beliefs run against traditional Islam. I don't like labeling people as mu'min and kafir, but our Imams were very harshly opposed to the ghulat, and the `Alawi doctrine is an extreme form of ghulu.

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That wouldn't mean they are not shias. It only means they are not 12er Shia.

 

Since you are so broadminded and accepting. I presume it would be OK to call Ahmadis Sunnis since the follow the 'Sunnah' of the Holy Prophet (pbuhahp). The believe in the Khalifas and also their fiqh is identical to Hanafis.

 

However back to the topic. Many people maybe aware that the Alawis of Syria are going through a gradual 'reeducation' to assimilate them into the 12er Shia fold.

 

The Alawis of old were a confused conglomeration of differing beliefs and structures. This reeducation has been going for decades now. Technically they still call themselves Alawis but it is more a tribal affiliation rather then a religious identity. It maybe in the next 20 years that the Alawis of Syria will be fully incorporated into the 12er fold  

Edited by A true Sunni

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Here are some controversial beliefs associated with `Alawism. Again, with the secular and Islamic (Sunni/Shia) influences in recent decades, some of these beliefs were abandoned by some `Alawis. But here's a few things traditional `Alawism teaches:

  • Imam `Ali is is the divine embodiment of God on Earth.
  • Reincarnation, and a type of "nirvana" after the cycle of reincarnation ends.
  • The pillars and laws of Islam are not necessary - salat, zakat, sawm, Hajj, abstaining from forbidden acts and substances, etc.
  • Muhammad b. Nusayr was a prophet and representative of the 12th Imam.
  • Commemoration of Christian holidays

 

 

Br. Qa'im, you are knowledgeable about modern 'Alawism, but you are incorrect in some of your assertions re: their traditional 'aqaaid. They didn't regard 'Ali (as) as the embodiment of Allah (swt) , but as the personification of God. They didn't believe in hulool and, like some of the older Christian Gnostic sects which believed Jesus (as) didn't have a physical body, they held that 'Ali (as) also didn't possess a carnal body.

 

They also followed certain aspects of the shari'ah, like salaah, as well as having their own fiqh of sorts. They also did not believe ibn Nusayr was a prophet. That's a fairy tale promulgated by Ithna 'Ashari and Sunni heresiographers. They did, however, believe him to have been the Baab of the 12th Imam (as).

 

If you want to know what they actually believed according to their own sources, here is a recent scholarly work which uses secret Nusayri texts which have only recently become available...

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n446kusjtk644hb/The%20Nu%C5%9Fayr%C4%AB-%E2%80%98Alaw%C4%ABs%20%E2%80%93%20An%20Introduction%20to%20the%20Religion%2C%20History%20and%20Identity%20of%20the%20Leading%20Minority%20in%20Syria%20%28Islamic%20History%20and%20Civilization%29.pdf

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-Trinity: `Alawis believe in three incarnations of God: `Ali  (as), Muhammad  (pbuh), and Salman al-Farisi  (ra). Each of the three have their own mystical significance, `Ali being the meaning, Muhammed being the name, and Salman al-Farisi being the gate. The short version of the `Alawi shahada is "I testify that there is no God but Ali," (la ilaha illa-`Ali), the long version (`ayn meem seen) which recognizes the full Trinity says: `I have borne witness that there is no God but He, the most High, the object of worship [al-'Ali al-Ma'bud] and that there is no concealing veil (hijab) except the lord Muhammad, the object of praise, (as-Sayyid Muhmmad al-Mahmud), and there is not Bab except the lord Salman al-Farisi`

 

 

 

If the above is true, Alawi's who hold this belief are Kaffirs, and Mushriks, and have done the worst possible thing by calling the creation Allah swt! How dare anyone say that about Allah swt. Kufr at it's finest.

 

We shia's do not want anything to do with these filthy accusations against Allah swt. 

 

The Imams were slaves, powerless slaves. They ate, used the toilet, married women. They cried to and worshiped Allah swt.

 

They cursed the ghulaat's. Anyone who exaggerates the status of an Imam or Prophet  - please have your answers prepared on the day of reckoning. I urge you to fear Allah swt.

Edited by Tawheed313

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According to their beliefs that I was told about them or read they are outside the fold of Islam...But I heard many of them claim to be twelvers now ....only few really have an idea about their true beliefs....So I'll read what Abdul qaim posted and see... But to be honest I am not very optimistic....

Edited by Wasil

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