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Noura

Why Should Lebanon Have Militias ?

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Professor my dad and grandad supported the mourabitoun and the martyr kamal jumblat and the plo when they were in lebanon , and then the martyr rafic hariri, with whose blood triggered the intifada which forced the syrians to leave lebanon.

And there is a lebanese army if hezbollah wants to protect the south then they should give there fighters and rockets to the lebanese army which is the protector of all of lebanon .

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And there is a lebanese army if hezbollah wants to protect the south then they should give there fighters and rockets to the lebanese army which is the protector of all of lebanon .

The Lebanese Army doesn't know how to use them. They aren't trained in the same tactics as Hizb. The army can also easily be infiltrated by spies. The basis for Hizb's success is its secrecy and rigorous recruitment program, this is well documented in Western academia. Until the army has a proven capability to counter Israeli aggression, like it or not, the people are going to have to protect themselves.

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True Sunni the palestinian is there struggle not Lebanon's, Lebanon wants to be left a lone from on the wars and backwardnes of the region, people in lebanon don't want to fight irans war nor the palestinians, I think most lebanese have learned from the "Palestinian" struggle and what it has brought to Lebanon, and if you think that's cowardness then give a few your uncles and aunts as martyrs for this "struggle" because Lebanon dosen't want to .

Well, some lebanese are cetainly cowardly - willing to truck with the Zionists - but those who have noble courage support Hezballah, and there are quite a few of those.

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Professor my dad and grandad supported the mourabitoun and the martyr kamal jumblat and the plo when they were in lebanon , and then the martyr rafic hariri, with whose blood triggered the intifada which forced the syrians to leave lebanon.

And there is a lebanese army if hezbollah wants to protect the south then they should give there fighters and rockets to the lebanese army which is the protector of all of lebanon .

Sovereignty lies with the people, not the state, especially when the state has never existed outside of what it says on the map. Lebanon is a non-state and the Lebanese Army has, much like the rest of the country's infrastructure, absolutely failed to safeguard its people or provide a modicum of security. This is the reason Hezbollah came into being; the Resistance is a grassroots movement that picked up where the "state" left off. If you want to wait for a corrupt institution that has never supported you or provided you with security, then keep waiting. Back in the 1980s a large portion of the population decided to take matters into its own hands. The war with Israel has been raging since long before then. Israel has been making incursions into South Lebanon since the 1960s; between 2000 (the so-called "end" to the Israeli occupation) and 2006 (the latest hot war), Israel violated Lebanese sovereignty thousands of times. Since 2006, Israel has continued to violate Lebanese sovereignty. If you're looking to the army for protection, then you have serious issues. If you think the army is capable of protecting its citizens from Israeli aggression, then this conversation is over because you are not entitled to an opinion on this matter. However, this doesn't even get to the source of your (or fellow Harirists') argument, which is to ensure Lebanese protection by accepting U.S. and Israeli aggression (whether passively or actively). This is what your community did back in 2006 when you rolled out the red carpet to Condeleeza Rice after her administration authorized a month-long Israeli invasion. These are the politics of shame and I would expect no less from the Harirists, who have abandoned the Palestinian cause, developing true Lebanese sovereignty or working toward addressing the crux of the regional problem.

If you want to argue against the Resistance, choose an avenue other than what you think the ideal state ought to behave like. Any time you conjure an image of Lebanon as a traditional nation-state, you have defeated your argument. Lebanon is a non-state. It will continue to be so until further notice. In this environment you cannot rely on a state that never was to protect and inform you.

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asphyxiated: Hezbollah came into existence in the 1980s during a period of chaos in lebanon where the state was weak. In lebanon you have a state, and a state that provides the well being for its citzens whether public education, to regulating trade, to enforcing the law to say lebanon is a non state is ridiculous first, also lebanon was prosperous during the 50s through the early 70s, the state was present, the nation was protected even with the isralies incursions. The state and the army and its security became weaker when it allowed militas and armies to develop inside lebanon for diiferent political groups. And if Israel violates Lebanese sovereignty the army will respond to its violations, and lebanon can take them to international court or the un, their are venues for such issues. And In Lebanon you have had relative stability and that is why the army should be the sole protector of lebanon and develop into a more advance force. Also Sanioura was trying to find a solution to the 2006 war, peaceful solution that would not make lebanon more occupied and more destroyed, and he used all international parties and if you think that is shameful then thats your problem .

Ya Aba 3abdillah: The lebanese army has rockets, tanks , and helicopters, and infiltrators have been discovered in the lebanese army by the lebanese army itself and internal security . And should everyone who hates israel or fear an israel incursion have a milita ?

Edited by Noura

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asphyxiated: Hezbollah came into existence in the 1980s during a period of chaos in lebanon where the state was weak. In lebanon you have a state, and a state that provides the well being for its citzens whether public education,

Are you serious with the 'public education' thing ? That is why any Lebanese with a few dollars to spare sends their kids to private school and abroad for college

to regulating trade,

Meaning the one who can pay the biggest bribe gets their products in, the rest don't. Yeah, that's regulation, I guess, if you want to use the loose definition.

to enforcing the law

You mean enforcing the 'Golden Rule'. The ones with the gold make the rules

to say lebanon is a non state is ridiculous first,

To say that Lebanon is a real state is ridiculous, read above

also lebanon was prosperous during the 50s through the early 70s, the state was present, the nation was protected even with the isralies incursions.

That was the security due to blind acceptance and slavery to colonial masters, including Israel. Those days are gone now.

The state and the army and its security became weaker when it allowed militas and armies to develop inside lebanon for diiferent political groups.

Militias have existed in Lebanon since the 50's. The only difference is that Hezb was the first one effective at fighting the Israelis.

Your premise that Lebanon is a modern state just like England or France is very weak. I don't know many Lebanese Sunni, Shia, or Christian that would agree with you. So I think you need to rethink that. There are many here who have lived in Lebanon or had extended visits there, so they are not buying this. Try posting on some Christian or Jewish website where basically noone there has ever been to Lebanon. You might get a better crowd.

Edited by Abu Hadi

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Lebanon can be a stable country in fact, when the Saudi-backed militias and their supporters are sent back where they belong.

Geagea is only on their side because he believes the West is backing the Saudis, he knows he will be BBQ and is trying to protect his community.

.

Same with Jumblatt, these are not 'wise political men' but simply terrified of the uncertain role of their community if Iran or Syria fails to back them, the same way America backs Wahhabism and their cronies.

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Abu Hadi all schools in lebanon private and public's curriculum are administered by the lebanese state, and lebanon for the exception of the palestinians and hired workers has one of the highest rates of literacy in the middle east and it is also the lebanese state that institutes the brevet examination . Also the lebanese economy has robust growth it is not a weak economy, and there are products and stores from all around the world in any big lebanese city, and that is thanks to the government. Also lebanon might not be perfect and there is a certain level of corruption but it is a safe country for some exception, you make lebanon sound as a non state, when its a real state, it exists, and we had a period where the lebanese government did not exist. Also what do you mean by " blind acceptance and slavery to colonial masters, including Israel" Israel had no presence in Lebanon during the 50s and 70s. And militas have existed if you call random guys with guns a milita with no traning, the difference is that Hezbollah has a big milita and many weapons that can rival the armies weapons and traning and that is not safe for a country to have such a non state actor in its country.

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Wow, an Iraqi Kurdish nationalist on this thread is arguing against Iranian interference in Lebanon! Pots and kettles spring to mind.

Everyone knows that the Iraqi Kurdish political leadership receives covert support from Mossad (as documented by Seymour Hersh and others). Of course the Iraqi Kurdish leadership also urged the US not to withdraw their occupation forces.

Massoud Barzani is simply a chip off the old block. His father ('Mullah' Mustafa Barzani) managed to work for (not just with) the KGB, CIA, MI6, Mossad and SAVAK at various points in his career. That's some stellar political promiscuity there!

When people say that politics is a dirty business perhaps they should replace the word dirty with Barzani.

Do the people who condemn Iranian and Syrian involvement in Lebanon also condemn Saudi and US support for mini-Hariri? There is no equivalence between US imperialism and the forces resisting it, namely the Islamic Republic and Hezbollah.

Seyyed Nasrallah is not a 'tool' in the way that mini-Hariri is.

Edited by Hagop

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asphyxiated: Hezbollah came into existence in the 1980s during a period of chaos in lebanon where the state was weak. In lebanon you have a state, and a state that provides the well being for its citzens whether public education, to regulating trade, to enforcing the law to say lebanon is a non state is ridiculous first, also lebanon was prosperous during the 50s through the early 70s, the state was present, the nation was protected even with the isralies incursions. The state and the army and its security became weaker when it allowed militas and armies to develop inside lebanon for diiferent political groups. And if Israel violates Lebanese sovereignty the army will respond to its violations, and lebanon can take them to international court or the un, their are venues for such issues. And In Lebanon you have had relative stability and that is why the army should be the sole protector of lebanon and develop into a more advance force. Also Sanioura was trying to find a solution to the 2006 war, peaceful solution that would not make lebanon more occupied and more destroyed, and he used all international parties and if you think that is shameful then thats your problem .

People need to realize, that Hezbollah was and is not primarily an armed militia - as with Hamas, they arose, initially and fundamentally as a social movement - providing key services (such as education and healthcare) where the state was either unable to or unwilling or simply incompetent.

Also the Shias of Lebanon felt neglected by the state, especially as many of them became impoverished and internally displaced after the Israeli invasion in the South due to the Palestinian presence there.

Furthermore, along with Hamas, it would be incorrect to label Hezbollah itself as a militia, when in fact, they have since become political parties in their own rights - they have armed wings (Izzadine Al Qassam Brigades for Hamas, and Al Muqawammah Al Islamiyya for Hezbollah) - in a sense like how the CIRA is seen as a military wing to the Republican Irish political party Sinn Fein. Yet Sinn Fein are not seen as a militia.

You also have to take into consideration the age in which we are in, although the key players of the international system are still nation-states - they have increasingly fallen into decline, politically, as increasingly, with the forces of globalization and transnational networks that work beyond the scope of the state, we are seeing the rise in influence and relevence of Non-state actors - militias are included in this category.

For example, it was only relatively recently, through a scorched earth policy of heavy handed brute military force, that the Sri Lankan government and military managed to eradicate the Tamil Tigers (an ethnic based separatist militia and political force that had ruled with impunity in many parts of Sri Lanka's north and eastern territories).... the centralised and Singhalese dominated government had no legitimacy within much of the Tamil population centers.

I may seem to be going off-topic here, but it's related in the sense that, the Lebanese government and the Lebanese national army do not have the same legitmacy and therefore authority over the Shia population centers in Lebanon, as enjoyed by Hezbollah... and because the Lebanese Shia, when formed together under the political forces of Amal and Hezbollah form a powerful bloc - it isn't such a simple matter of asking whether Hezbollah should disarm and that there should be no militias.. Hezbollah are seen as the legitimate army of the Lebanese, if not the Lebanese Shias at least, who are a sizeable population.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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Just wanted to 'Like' Propaganda_of_the_Deed's post (my 'Like This' icon doesn't work).

Edited by Hagop

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Propaganda: Hezbollah was not started as a social movement , it started as the islamic jihad, and was created by followers of sheikh ragheb harb, in lebanon u had shia social movements with musa el sadr, and hezbollah was not that. Also during the 80s when Hezbollah was created there was no state and everyone suffered from the conflict, not only the Shia.

And no one has a problem with Hezbollah as a political party people have problems with hezbollah arms.

Also in the Lebanese army there are Shia, it incorporates all of Lebanon and is the sole protector of Lebanon according to the lebanese constitution which all parties abide by. And in the 80 s christians considered the owet as there army but that did not stop the owet from disarming and abiding by the law.

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Propaganda: Hezbollah was not started as a social movement , it started as the islamic jihad, and was created by followers of sheikh ragheb harb, in lebanon u had shia social movements with musa el sadr, and hezbollah was not that. Also during the 80s when Hezbollah was created there was no state and everyone suffered from the conflict, not only the Shia.

And no one has a problem with Hezbollah as a political party people have problems with hezbollah arms.

Also in the Lebanese army there are Shia, it incorporates all of Lebanon and is the sole protector of Lebanon according to the lebanese constitution which all parties abide by. And in the 80 s christians considered the owet as there army but that did not stop the owet from disarming and abiding by the law.

lol

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.

Massoud Barzani is simply a chip off the old block. His father ('Mullah' Mustafa Barzani) managed to work for (not just with) the KGB, CIA, MI6, Mossad and SAVAK at various points in his career.

Not just with the above mentioned groups, but also with Saddam, and Kenan Evren ( the hawkish anti-Kurdish dictator of Turkey in the 1980s)

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Propaganda: Hezbollah was not started as a social movement , it started as the islamic jihad, and was created by followers of sheikh ragheb harb, in lebanon u had shia social movements with musa el sadr, and hezbollah was not that. Also during the 80s when Hezbollah was created there was no state and everyone suffered from the conflict, not only the Shia.

And no one has a problem with Hezbollah as a political party people have problems with hezbollah arms.

Also in the Lebanese army there are Shia, it incorporates all of Lebanon and is the sole protector of Lebanon according to the lebanese constitution which all parties abide by. And in the 80 s christians considered the owet as there army but that did not stop the owet from disarming and abiding by the law.

Where the hell do you get your facts from, seriously. Awwalan, hizb only broke off from 7arakeh when Sayyid Mousa was kidnapped and that whacko Hussain al-Hussaini took over. Sayyid Mousa was close to Imam Khomaini, who sent his own son and high ranks like Chamran to Lebanon. President Khatami is married to Sadr's niece. If anything, it was Sayyid Mousa that brought the revolutionary guards to lebanon to train up 7arakeh. Sheikh Ragheb was seen as a de-facto guide after Sayyid Mousa for the original group because Birri and al-Hussaini were essentially secular.

Secondly, the State permitted Hizb to remain armed due to its status of being a resistance movement. The other militias aren't resistance movements, which is why in may 08 hizb rounded up some militias and terrorists and handed them over to the army.

and in the 80's, not all christians considered 'ouwwet as the army. you forget 7arb 3on? you forget how 3on slapped the batriak around for backstabbing the christian community and the State as a whole?

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Ya Aba 3abdillah who is hezbollah resisting ? If they believe that the sheba farms is of the most vital importance why haven't they struck at it, in the past 6 years. Also when hezbollah was " rounding up" "militas" and "terroists" in 08 were they doing that during or after they were burning down television stations, radio stations, and newspaper offices? And will hezbollah ever give up its arms.

Also there is a difference in the quality of a person who flees the country, and lets his troops be killed, and a person who stays in a country were he is persecuted, and most chirstians of lebanon i think know that difference. And Jaja for all his problems, firmly agreed to taef and disarmed the owet..

Edited by Noura

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Ya Aba 3abdillah who is hezbollah resisting ? If they believe that the sheba farms is of the most vital importance why haven't they struck at it, in the past 6 years. Also when hezbollah was " rounding up" "militas" and "terroists" in 08 were they doing that during or after they were burning down television stations, radio stations, and newspaper offices? And will hezbollah ever give up its arms.

Also there is a difference in the quality of a person who flees the country, and lets his troops be killed, and a person who stays in a country were he is persecuted, and most chirstians of lebanon i think know that difference. And Jaja for all his problems, firmly agreed to taef and disarmed the owet..

I wasted 5-10 mins of my time replying to your post. Did you read my reply or just ignored it? Don't you think Hizb will disarm if the things I mentioned (in that reply) regarding Lebanese gov/army will come true?

And you don't have to type in 'bold' we can read it.

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. If anything, it was Sayyid Mousa that brought the revolutionary guards to lebanon to train up 7arakeh.

Are you sure ? Where did the Revolutionary Guards get their training do you think ? Amal's fighting group in the original days was mainly composed of -

1. Shia defectors from the Lebanese Army

2 . Mostly Shia youth in the South who had gained training and experience under the PLO ( yes there were many Shia in the PLO until the 1980s) [ the PLO in turn had got their training in Iraq, Egypt and Algeria]

It was actually the Revolutionary Guards who were in need of training. Believe me those guys did not have any. Even as laste as the 1980s they were using mass human wave assaults to attack Iraqi positions and needed volunteers to clear minefields. It was the Harake who actually trained the IRGC.

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Why are we going in circles?

Yes I'm sure there were instances of Iran training PLOs and some other Palestinian groups in general and PLOs or other Palestinian factions training a few Shiite Lebanese that happened to be close neighbors.

Who really cares?

Lets stick to the thread.

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The Lebanese army is the most popular institute in the country everyone is in the army, why should hezbollah have arms or rockets if there is a lebanese army ?

Brother - why should the people in South Lebanon depend upon an army that has clearly demonstrated that they could care less about the Shia. They think they are westerners and that they can escape the harm that people in the south have suffered. They are fools being saved from themselves.

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Propaganda: Hezbollah was not started as a social movement , it started as the islamic jihad, and was created by followers of sheikh ragheb harb, in lebanon u had shia social movements with musa el sadr, and hezbollah was not that. Also during the 80s when Hezbollah was created there was no state and everyone suffered from the conflict, not only the Shia.

And no one has a problem with Hezbollah as a political party people have problems with hezbollah arms.

Also in the Lebanese army there are Shia, it incorporates all of Lebanon and is the sole protector of Lebanon according to the lebanese constitution which all parties abide by. And in the 80 s christians considered the owet as there army but that did not stop the owet from disarming and abiding by the law.

Where do you get this stuff. The Lebanese army refused to defend Southern Lebanon up to the current day and there were numerous situations where they were caught helping the Israelis kill, capture and destroy. The Sunnis and Christian didn't give a rat's behind about the Shia. The Shia will never trust the rest of Lebanon to protect and defend them based on the experience of the past. It is nonsensical to think that given the countless betrayals by Sunni and Christian political leaders that Hezbollah would do anything other than stay the current course.

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I believe that Hezbollah should be given a team of cream of the crop Iranian nuclear scientists who'll build them nukes.

Then Sunnis,Jews and NATO can take a backseat and the Syrian rebels,KSA(Sunni occupied Hejaz),Sunni occupied Bahrain, Sunni run Pakistan,Sunni insurgents of Iraq and the Jewish occupied Palestine is wiped off the map.

BTW US supporters who support American invasion of Iran,in 1979 the Soviet army was beaten by Shia Hazara mujahideen. Unlettered,rustic,poorly trained and ill equipped,they defeated the superpower of their time.

History will repeat in the dreaming cities of Persia.

Iran,Syria and Hezbollah forever!

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I wonder if I have understood correct about the new lebanese election law;

If it will be approved, does this mean that Lebanon for the first time will have democratic elections? And if this is the case, Lebanon will can have a government that truly represents the lebanese people.

If this happens, wouldn´t that government be able to have supremacy over the militias? And the result would logically be one national army.

Please tell me if you think I understood correct!

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Unfortunately , no

You NEVER understand correctly. No one will take you, or Noura serious, so just drop it

I was hoping someone would at least try to explain to me. Why would it be impossible for a Lebanese government to have supremacy over the countries armed forces? This is the case in most countries - the only exception I can think of right now is Lebanon. Why is Lebanon so different?

IS THIS SUCH A STUPID QUESTION?

I don´t claim to be very intelligent. But I am not stupid and definitely not uneducable - (at least not according to my teachers at school). Is there no one in this forum who has a bit of pedagogical skill?

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I was hoping someone would at least try to explain to me. Why would it be impossible for a Lebanese government to have supremacy over the countries armed forces? This is the case in most countries - the only exception I can think of right now is Lebanon. Why is Lebanon so different?

IS THIS SUCH A STUPID QUESTION?

I don´t claim to be very intelligent. But I am not stupid and definitely not uneducable - (at least not according to my teachers at school). Is there no one in this forum who has a bit of pedagogical skill?

Well why dont you revise your own pedagogy , and revise because clearly there are alot of nations on this planet who are not in control over their armed forces. You seem to think its only Lebanon, because your an Israeli and Lebanon is your number 1 threat atm, so everything revolves around , lebanon , lebanon , LEBANON

Honestly like i said a post before, your way off

Salams

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Well why dont you revise your own pedagogy , and revise because clearly there are alot of nations on this planet who are not in control over their armed forces. You seem to think its only Lebanon, because your an Israeli and Lebanon is your number 1 threat atm, so everything revolves around , lebanon , lebanon , LEBANON

Honestly like i said a post before, your way off

Salams

Can you mention any of these countries? And what are the problems there?

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Why would it be impossible for a Lebanese government to have supremacy over the countries armed forces?

Due to the demographics and power dynamics of the political and social arena of the country. The last civil war saw the army split across sectarian and socio-political divides. A non-functional and sporadic army hasn't the ability to stamp its authority. This is due to a failure of the State as an institution. You're assuming that the government is in union and the army and those that control the security apparatus are homogeneous and coherent in their political and religious beliefs. Unfortunately that's not the nature of the country. For these very reasons, and add to the mix that the men in power have opposing foreign allies, it is almost "impossible for a Lebanese government to have supremacy over the countries armed forces".

It's the sad truth of the reality over there.

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