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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ayatollah Sane'i Demoted- No Longer An Ayatollah?

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well depends the level of strangeness, people use to jump on fadlullah for his fatwa's big time. some of them may be lesser than others in strangness. like macissac said above "liberal". do many marja say that it is okay to shake hands with non-mahram in certain circumstances? i am not very educated on different rulings, i use to be a muqalid of fadlullah. macissac posted in 2009 and he believes sanei's fatwa are strange.

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From what I remember, he was not demoted at all, but rather questions arose about him so he was investigated and found not to be a marja in the first place. It would be helpful if the actual statement

When the AMA (American Medical Association) says "Dr X undertook weird experiments on people that led to them becoming more sick and so patients should no longer seek medical advice from him". Similar

I don't get what you're complaining about. A great scholar like you masha'Allah that can barely read arabic but makes his own fatwas should be pleased. Don't you call for people to stop doing taqlid?

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Can anyone name all the marjas that were demoted in recent history?

As for those of you who say it is political, why does the hawza permit Ayatullah Waheed Khorasani, who is known to not believe in wilayat al-faqih mutlaq, to give one of the largest (if not the largest) dars al-kharij classes in Qum? I have met people who studied under him and lets just say that they are not very high on the Islamic Republic. So if the hawza is so fiercely against its opponents, why is he being allowed to publicly spread his views to so many students?

Because Khorasani hasn't been vocal about it (IRI, Ahmadinejad, Khamenei, etc.). If he starts making headlines in the media then you'll see the consequences (ex. Saanei, Montezeri).

Saanei had the title of Marjayat, students, 'teaching his views', had an office, collected Khums, executed fatwas, no one said a word for years/decades, so where was Yazdi and his ilk then?

It's all politics, nothing to do with qualifications. If it was qualifications then Saanei wouldn't have been allowed to do the following above for years/decades.

Edited by Ugly Jinn
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Can anyone name all the marjas that were demoted in recent history?

Because Khorasani hasn't been vocal about it (IRI, Ahmadinejad, Khamenei, etc.). If he starts making headlines in the media then you'll see the consequences (ex. Saanei, Montezeri).

Saanei had the title of Marjayat, students, 'teaching his views', had an office, collected Khums, executed fatwas, no one said a word for years/decades, so where was Yazdi and his ilk then?

It's all politics, nothing to do with qualifications. If it was qualifications then Saanei wouldn't have been allowed to do the following above for years/decades.

Who you do you think Ayatollah Khorasani is talking about?

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Can anyone name all the marjas that were demoted in recent history?

Because Khorasani hasn't been vocal about it (IRI, Ahmadinejad, Khamenei, etc.). If he starts making headlines in the media then you'll see the consequences (ex. Saanei, Montezeri).

Saanei had the title of Marjayat, students, 'teaching his views', had an office, collected Khums, executed fatwas, no one said a word for years/decades, so where was Yazdi and his ilk then?

It's all politics, nothing to do with qualifications. If it was qualifications then Saanei wouldn't have been allowed to do the following above for years/decades.

Being vocal about it or not is beside the point. I have been told, however, that he has been vocal about it in his classes but I am not able to confirm or provide sources. But either way, the point is clear that he teaches very large kharij classes in Qum itself which lead many of his students to not believe in or support the government. This is not something you can just brush aside because his words were not as intense as Saanei's.

My point about S. Sadiq Shirazi was even more to the point, yet you ignored that. He called the Supreme Leader a Yazidi imam of kufr. This is far worse than what Saanei said.

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sanei has said that abortion is ok. end of story. i heard of this a while ago. what's the difference between abortion and burying newborns, totally against our religion and to my knowledge only one of his strange fatwas. i dont care what his politics where, most shias want islam according to sunnah of masomeen.

http://www.newstatesman.com/middle-east/2009/08/iran-ayatollah-khomeini-leader

A resident, like Montazeri, of the holy city of Qom, Sanei has a lifetime of achievements in scholarship and teaching. Since retiring from the Council of Guardians, he has been active as one of roughly 29 grand ayatollahs who are informal opinion leaders, and has issued liberal fatwas on abortion and on women holding political office. He has met other grand ayatollahs to find ways of resolving the recent conflict, an implicit rebuke of Khamenei. Sanei has pointed out that many Iranians had understandable doubts about the election outcome, given the lack of transparency in the process, and he has called on the authorities to honour human rights. On his website, he says: "Such deceit and oppression should not cause despair and hopelessness in the people's path to standing up for their religious and legal rights and in their endeavour to ensure sovereignty over their own destiny."

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Being vocal about it or not is beside the point. I have been told, however, that he has been vocal about it in his classes but I am not able to confirm or provide sources. But either way, the point is clear that he teaches very large kharij classes in Qum itself which lead many of his students to not believe in or support the government. This is not something you can just brush aside because his words were not as intense as Saanei's.

Teaching in class is not the same as being vocal publicly. Saanei was teaching for years/decades, no one said a word, not even a peep, hence not an issue.

I am amazed you are brushing aside the fact that no one said a word for years/decades when Saanei was practicing his Marjayat until recently.

My point about S. Sadiq Shirazi was even more to the point, yet you ignored that. He called the Supreme Leader a Yazidi imam of kufr. This is far worse than what Saanei said.

Because he is a Shirazi, a family powerhouse with a legacy and with a huge loyal following. Take away his last name and huge following then he would've faced consequences.

This isn't the same Iran under Khomenei, he was untouchable. I'm sure IRI has it's own 'political reasons' not to do anything.

Edited by Ugly Jinn
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Teaching in class is not the same as being vocal publicly. Saanei was teaching for years/decades, no one said a word, not even a peep, hence not an issue.

I am amazed you are brushing aside the fact that no one said a word for years/decades when Saanei was practicing his Marjayat until recently.

I myself have actually heard scholars who doubted his level of learnedness even before the elections. So you're "no one said a word" assumption is dead wrong.

Because he is a Shirazi, a family powerhouse with a legacy and with a huge loyal following. Take away his last name and huge following then he would've faced consequences.

This isn't the same Iran under Khomenei, he was untouchable. I'm sure IRI has it's own 'political reasons' not to do anything.

Care to explain what happened to his brother then?

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I myself have actually heard scholars who doubted his level of learnedness even before the elections. So you're "no one said a word" assumption is dead wrong.

You are missing my point. Why wasn't he 'demoted' years/decades ago? Why now?

Care to explain what happened to his brother then?
This isn't the same Iran under Khomenei, he was untouchable. I'm sure IRI has it's own 'political reasons' not to do anything.
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You are missing my point. Why wasn't he 'demoted' years/decades ago? Why now?

According to the news reports about it:

The Qom Theological Lecturers Association, Jame-e-Modarressin said on Saturday that it had launched a yearlong investigation into the qualifications of Grand Ayatollah Sanei in response to repetitive inquiries on the issue

http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/115179.html

As for Sayyid MH Shirazi, please explain how the switch of leadership from Imam Khumayni to Sayyid Khamenei made such a difference that the former can imprison Shirazis but the latter can't?

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According to the news reports about it:

All recent investigations (the article states 2010), what about the years/decades before that?

As for Sayyid MH Shirazi, please explain how the switch of leadership from Imam Khumayni to Sayyid Khamenei made such a difference that the former can imprison Shirazis but the latter can't?

Leaders change, times have changed. IRI is not as powerful as it was before. There is more than enough evidence to prove it (off-topic). Just the fact that Sadiq Shirazi can say such things and get away with it is proof enough. Yet, his brother faced consequences under Khomenei.

Edited by Ugly Jinn
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Salam,

If I may enter this turmoil. I somewhat agree that this issue is a political one but it's also a religious one, one cannot say its only religious or political. For all those who oppose the IRI tell me about a government that is any better. Seriously everyone wines and talks [Edited Out] about Iran and they want it to be like the west modern etc but its not. Its trying its best to keep the country under control and not to bow to the western plots. Walk a mile in their shoes. Till the imam comes our Iran is the best thing we got, so stop whining. As for the Ayatoallah lets not get to involved into this topic and force our opinions on others, there is a reason why we have Marjas studying religion in the hawzas. For those how talk [Edited Out] ( about marjas, The Leader, Marjas) please consider that your knowledge is a pebble of sand in their beach.

Salam

Edited by Awaiting_for_My_Master
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IRI is not as powerful as it was before. There is more than enough evidence to prove it (off-topic). Just the fact that Sadiq Shirazi can say such things and get away with it is proof enough. Yet, his brother faced consequences under Khomenei.

This is faulty analysis. Shirazi leader was not put in prison. However his son Mr Murtaza was imprisoned under Supreme Leader. Your analogy is not working. It is a good joke that Iran Republic is not powerful like before.

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Salam,

If I may enter this turmoil. I somewhat agree that this issue is a political one but it's also a religious one, one cannot say its only religious or political. For all those who oppose the IRI tell me about a government that is any better. Seriously everyone wines and talks [Edited Out] about Iran and they want it to be like the west modern etc but its not. Its trying its best to keep the country under control and not to bow to the western plots. Walk a mile in their shoes. Till the imam comes our Iran is the best thing we got, so stop whining. As for the Ayatoallah lets not get to involved into this topic and force our opinions on others, there is a reason why we have Marjas studying religion in the hawzas. For those how talk [Edited Out] ( about marjas, The Leader, Marjas) please consider that your knowledge is a pebble of sand in their beach.

Salam

Marja-worship in full flow. How dare we <gasp> talk about fallibles as if they're human, with the same weaknesses and frailties we have - don't we know years of worship are nothing compared to years of worship when you have a title?

You sound like a sunni, defending leaders no matter their deeds, words or actions. And Iran is just another country, albeit blessed with Holy Imam (as) in their boundary and a majority Shi'ah population.

If you think it's the 'best' I take it you either live there already or are planning to move some time soon....

ALI

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Salam,

If I may enter this turmoil. I somewhat agree that this issue is a political one but it's also a religious one, one cannot say its only religious or political. For all those who oppose the IRI tell me about a government that is any better. Seriously everyone wines and talks [Edited Out] about Iran and they want it to be like the west modern etc but its not. Its trying its best to keep the country under control and not to bow to the western plots. Walk a mile in their shoes. Till the imam comes our Iran is the best thing we got, so stop whining. As for the Ayatoallah lets not get to involved into this topic and force our opinions on others, there is a reason why we have Marjas studying religion in the hawzas. For those how talk [Edited Out] ( about marjas, The Leader, Marjas) please consider that your knowledge is a pebble of sand in their beach.

Salam

I suggest that you reaserch this site rather than open that can of worms again.

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This is faulty analysis. Shirazi leader was not put in prison. However his son Mr Murtaza was imprisoned under Supreme Leader. Your analogy is not working. It is a good joke that Iran Republic is not powerful like before.

Where did I say anything about prison? :wacko:

----------------------------

@cc_30

I was browsing and found this post of you supporting Saanei: :wacko:

Although some people do disagree with him for his openly unorthodox views, as far as I know no one has actually opposed him as a scholar or attempted to discredit him as some people do with other maraja (or self-proclaimed maraja). The thing is that, as opposed to the aforementioned scholars, no one has cast doubt upon the ijtihad of Ayatollah Saanei or questioned whether he can be a marja. Because he has unquestionably reached that level, the most they can say is "well I disagree with him but it's his ijtihad."

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__1913454

Even you admitted that he is qualified to be a Marja in mid 2009 and that no one opposed him, and now you've changed your stance.

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Even you admitted that he is qualified to be a Marja in mid 2009 and that no one opposed him, and now you've changed your stance.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Bro, he has a right to have a particular stance and when a yearlong investigation turns up evidence, he has a right to change his stance.

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Marja-worship in full flow.

I don't get what you're complaining about. A great scholar like you masha'Allah that can barely read arabic but makes his own fatwas should be pleased. Don't you call for people to stop doing taqlid? And now that there's a call that Sane'i shouldn't be part of the emulation system, you're '' complaining :o Shouldn't you be jumping in joy that a man has now joined your ranks of being a scholar that no one emulates?

Which begs a further question, what happens if a great scholar like you masha'Allah comes out with some funky ideas about religion? Are other scholars supposed to step in and say "this guy has it wrong?", or are they supposed to just let the guy preach as suggested by the member 'Shi3a' coz apparently every scholar out there has funky ideas?

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Good to hear that the usooli marjas are alive. But usoolis wakeup. Till yesterday you were supporting g his falsehood to be right and fought your own brothers and friends for him and now that a committee calls him wrong u are with them

What about the relations u broke for him.??

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Bro, he has a right to have a particular stance and when a yearlong investigation turns up evidence, he has a right to change his stance.

You are missing the point which is that no one had any issues with Saanei's qualifications for decades while he was a Marja, collecting Khums money, had an office, executing fatwas, teaching, etc., until recently he publicly started being vocal about the IRI. And even cc_30's post in mid 2009 confirms he was qualified, "Because he has unquestionably reached that level".

All of a sudden after his remarks towards IRI he's not qualified? :wacko:

This is all 100% political and nothing more.

------------

Just to add, if for the sake of argument qualifications was indeed the reason for the 'demotion' then the Marjayat system is a complete joke/laughing stock when a 'fraud'/unqualified 'Marja' is able to execute fatwas and collect Khums money for decades openly in Iran.

Edited by Ugly Jinn
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Just to add, if for the sake of argument qualifications was indeed the reason for the 'demotion' then the Marjayat system is a complete joke/laughing stock when a 'fraud'/unqualified 'Marja' is able to execute fatwas and collect Khums money for decades openly.

You're basing your 'decades' on the premise that what he preached 'decades' ago, remained 'decades' later. If this is the case, then you've failed. Maybe he altered some of his views over time?

And if he was investigated over a whole year, how does that tie in to "all of the sudden after his remarks" theory? Did the scholars use their future vision abilities and start to investigate him a year prior to him making 'his remarks', or did he make his remarks and then a year later they deduced that he isn't fit as a source of teachings in islamic juresprudence?

And again, assuming it happened that the timing correlated with any remarks he made, should the scholars then NOT issue statements about what they view as problematic verdicts, just because it was around the same time as the elections? By this logic, a policeman can't arrest a criminal because a criminal, though a criminal, is also exposing corruption in the policeforce. But the police (according to you) can't arrest the man for murder, because it happened that at the time, he was exposing some malpractice. Great logic dude. Even assuming that the police let the murder walk the streets for a while, and the trigger was he started mouthing of, it doesn't change the fact that he should be arrested, better late than never.

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Where did I say anything about prison? :wacko:

----------------------------

@cc_30

I was browsing and found this post of you supporting Saanei: :wacko:

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__1913454

Even you admitted that he is qualified to be a Marja in mid 2009 and that no one opposed him, and now you've changed your stance.

Yes, almost three years ago I said that as far as I knew Saanei was a marja. Since then I have acquired more knowledge and my position has changed. The investigation itself which concluded he is not a marja was not even reported until half a year after my post.

I don't see what your point is? How is someone changing their mind based on new information this massive fail worthy of a :wacko: face like you are making it out to be? And where did I "support" him? I know shaykhs who I despise, but I will still recognize that they finished muqadamat and sutuh and hence are shaykhs. Hence I am far from "supporting" them by acknowledging their level of knowledge. And I did not "admit" anything, I just spoke based upon my knowledge. You have a way of twisting peoples' words around and making mountains out of mole hills which is really annoying, and I would really suggest that you cut it out, because it does not add anything to our discussions and only leads to unnecessary defenses like this one which are quite frankly a waste of time. If you're going to open your mouth, say something of substance.

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You're basing your 'decades' on the premise that what he preached 'decades' ago, remained 'decades' later. If this is the case, then you've failed. Maybe he altered some of his views over time?

Whether his views changed or not is irrelevant, point is he was authorized and qualified to preach for 'decades' as a Marja in Iran, yet no one said a word about his 'qualifications'.

And if he was investigated over a whole year, how does that tie in to "all of the sudden after his remarks" theory? Did the scholars use their future vision abilities and start to investigate him a year prior to him making 'his remarks', or did he make his remarks and then a year later they deduced that he isn't fit as a source of teachings in islamic juresprudence

Where was this 'investigation' when he was a Marja for decades collecting Khums money? Why 'all of a sudden' the investigations started after he was vocal towards IRI?

I don't see what your point is?

Just pointing out that no one questioned him before (even you), yet after his verbal assault on IRI 'things' changed.

Edited by Ugly Jinn
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Ugly Jinn

Some times when people get old they start to lose touch, perhaps they are judging him for what he has or has not done in the last few years not ten years ago.

The problem could be what should be donewith such a person who has reached such a lofty spiritual level but can no longer function as he once did. Demoting him seems harsh but what else can be done. Spritual giants can't simply retire can they but if would be great if they found away for them to gracefully retire from the scene.

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Marja-worship in full flow. How dare we <gasp> talk about fallibles as if they're human, with the same weaknesses and frailties we have - don't we know years of worship are nothing compared to years of worship when you have a title?

You sound like a sunni, defending leaders no matter their deeds, words or actions. And Iran is just another country, albeit blessed with Holy Imam (as) in their boundary and a majority Shi'ah population.

If you think it's the 'best' I take it you either live there already or are planning to move some time soon....

ALI

Salam

I highly suggest you read my post at least 5 times till you understand it. I never defended anyone all I am saying is that people should stop talking about marjas, especially these people don't have as much knowledge as them. And how am i worshiping a marja seriously like read my post again make sure you comprehend what I say. I said "TILL the IMAM comes Iran is the best we got" please don't pick and choose from my post take it as a whole or don' take it at all. I'm not a sunni, don't live in Iran or plan to anytime soon.

Salam

I suggest that you reaserch this site rather than open that can of worms again.

Salam

Before I rush into conclusions what do you mean exactly.

Salam

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Salam

I highly suggest you read my post at least 5 times till you understand it. I never defended anyone all I am saying is that people should stop talking about marjas, especially these people don't have as much knowledge as them. And how am i worshiping a marja seriously like read my post again make sure you comprehend what I say. I said "TILL the IMAM comes Iran is the best we got" please don't pick and choose from my post take it as a whole or don' take it at all. I'm not a sunni, don't live in Iran or plan to anytime soon.

Oh, reading your post once was enough my friend. We have a right to talk about any fallible person as much as we like, marja or not. People in the public eye are there to be questioned regardless of garb or status - if that's an issue for them then pick another profession.

Now, define to me how "Iran is the best we got" in the context of our faith? I'm a little sick of jahils writing things like "their paving the way for Imam" or "xyz is a representative of Imam" and other such nonsense so please, something original.

There are 3 great things about Iran; it's where one of our Holy Imams (as) and his beloved sister (ra) are buried, has a Shi'ah majority population and they aren't afraid of telling their detractors where to stick their sanctions.

But two of the above three existed even in the Shah of Iran's time so that leaves one positive...

ALI

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What none of you, as far as I am aware, have mentioned is that the body which stated Grand Ayatollah Saanei was no longer a Marja, does not recognise/acknowledge that Grand Ayatollah Sistani is one. Can you therefore take such a body seriously?

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What none of you, as far as I am aware, have mentioned is that the body which stated Grand Ayatollah Saanei was no longer a Marja, does not recognise/acknowledge that Grand Ayatollah Sistani is one. Can you therefore take such a body seriously?

That is wrong: http://www.jameehmodarresin.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=599&Itemid=25

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