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ShiaSoldier@2007

Ayatollah Sane'i Demoted- No Longer An Ayatollah?

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(salam) (bismillah)

So the other day I was reading a post that mentioned that Ayatollah Sane'i wasn't even an Ayatollah any more. I dug in to this issue, by which I mean I googled it and got an answer in 10 seconds, and apparently it has been reported by presstv. Can anyone confirm this? I had no idea and I am kind of in shock.

Jazakallah Khair

http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/115179.html

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It's political nothing else. Unfortunately, if you have opposing views on certain matters you become an outcast. As the article states, "has come under fire for his anti-government stance. He has also been criticized by millions of Iranians who took part in the demonstration on Wednesday, denouncing the sacrilege of Ashura by anti-government rioters. "

It's funny that he was marja for many years and no one said a word then all of a sudden he's not qualified anymore. :wacko:

Iran regime = Politics > Islam

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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The notorious pseudoayatollah who called Ahmadinejad a son of a [Edited Out], is no longer an Ayatollah. What a surprise.

Move this to the Iran forum or merge it, waste of time and space to mention him.

There are Shia who believe they are Catholics, and where such men are sovereign, appointed for life and untouchable to indulge into whatever they see fit. Iran's political system, and its relationship with clergymen is well thought through and has the necessary checks and balances, courts and bodies to review their conduct.

In other moves, very responsible move, for a very irresponsible marja.

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the circle is shrinking by the month....

ayatollah's declaring each other anathema, party lists declaring each other deviants, more and more websites being blocked (especially pro-Ahmadinejad ones), more and more lawyers and journalists being thrown in jail.....

the picture is not pretty...

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i did not ask his political views. i mean fiqh. like does he say it is okay to do muta with a kafir if there are not ahlul kitab?

Edited by Maitham

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he has these weird ideas about respecting democracy and the rights of women and religious minorities.

very strange.

Yes that must be it, he just loves freedom and human rights... :no:

Like Banisadr did...

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i did not ask his political views. i mean fiqh. like does he say it is okay to do muta with a kafir if there are not ahlul kitab?

of course not.

it's purely political.

Yes that must be it, he just loves freedom and human rights... :no:

Like Banisadr did...

you're not even Iranian, so I don't know why you're so hung up on our politics...

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can you point me towards his section on muta as i was looking and did not find it.

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chi? inast bala.

Edited by Maitham

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i would like to see if he says so about muta or not so if anyone knows. i may be thinking of something far different. so i do not want to accuse him without proof of seeing it quoted. regardless this happened a while ago.

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He surely had some really strange fatwas, some even went against the clear teachings of Quran. I do not want to repeat those here as they will create more fitna on this forum. I had been chasing Sanei for a long time and was compiling his fatwas on matters which all sounded weird. He was either not a proper alim or is way ahead of his time.

As far as someone wrote above, except for the Masoom Imam, nobody is above criticism and audit. People do gain some status and it can be taken away as their deeds and inclinations change.

Not even Sahaba of Prophet (pbuh) were immune to this, some were as close to Prophet that they offered their daughters to Prophet to be his wives which Prophet reluctantly accepted but then those same Sahabas were demoted even from their Islam and Eiman when they revolted against Allah and Allah's appointed Imams. Same goes for " the mothers of momineen", the wives of Prophet, that no matter how close they were to Prophet, they got demoted from their Islam and eiman when they openly revolted against Prophet and his successors.

See in Islam there is no Sahaba or ulema worshipping, so anybody is open for demotion, critique, and scrutiny except for Allah (swt) and His appointed personalities.

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He surely had some really strange fatwas, some even went against the clear teachings of Quran. I do not want to repeat those here as they will create more fitna on this forum. I had been chasing Sanei for a long time and was compiling his fatwas on matters which all sounded weird. He was either not a proper alim or is way ahead of his time.

Like what? Post them or the thread where you listed them.

Most Marjas have odd fatwas, it's subjective.

Edited by Ugly Jinn

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Like what? Post them or the thread where you listed them.

Most Marjas have odd fatwas, it's subjective.

Don't want to post 'em, it's immaterial, always was.

Sanei's supposed fatwas are still enormously more reasonable than the fatwas that come out of Salafi cult's mullahs in Saudi Arabia.

And I strongly disagree, none of the major Marjas' have any odd fatwa at all, they are just educating us the condensed information as it reached them through Quran and Hadith.

I know it's fashionable to criticize Islamic Marajae' but I refuse to be party of it.

Edited by Waiting for HIM

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i did not ask his political views. i mean fiqh. like does he say it is okay to do muta with a kafir if there are not ahlul kitab?

salaamu alaykum,

I used to follow him, off the top of my head (may Allah forgive me I have remembered incorrectly)

- Women can lead men in prayer

- Testimony of a women is equal to that of a man, the Qur'an talks about it in one context, not general

- Non muslims are only spiritually najis

some other questions I had asked him via e-mail

- you can work in a restaurant that sells alcohol as long as you don't sell it to muslims

- in salat al layl, you can ask forgiveness for non muslims

- you can't use lies about the imams (a) to draw emotions from people

- tatbir is not permissable, quoting some fatwa from sayed khomeini - though there are article and videos of him glorifying it

as for mut'a his views are normal

Issue 1144: A virgin girl who has reached puberty and is mature enough to decide her interests and benefits, is allowed to enter into a permanent marriage without the permission of her father or paternal grand father; although as a precaution, she should get their permission in advance; but it is not necessary to get the permission of her brother and mother; however, for a temporary marriage, it is necessary for a virgin girl to get the permission of her father or paternal grand father.

though actually, not sure about this

Q1160: What is the verdict on entering into temporary marriage with non-Muslim women such as Catholic Christians, Buddhists, and those with unknown faiths?

A: In case of a Muslim man’s need and necessity in such countries and in case Muslim women or those from the People of the Book are not available, it will be permissible provided that the Muslim man makes certain they will not become pregnant, and that it will be for such a short time that he will not be influenced by the woman’s atheistic thoughts and beliefs which deserve loss and punishment. Basically, Islam regards temporary marriage as a means of satisfying men’s needs while being in hardship and under the pressure of sexual desires, but not as some sort of legal debauchery and extramarital sex. Therefore, those who have wives with whom they can satisfy their sexual desires should not enter into temporary marriage even with Muslim women, otherwise they would ruin their family life, their tranquility and comfort, and would suffer hundreds of other losses.

Not sure most would agree with that

http://saanei.org/?view=02,00,00,00,0#02,02,09,239,0

you can contact his office, if you want a copy of his resalah and they might also through in his 'essence of thoughts' book - for free

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how can someone be 'demoted' from being a marja?

When the AMA (American Medical Association) says "Dr X undertook weird experiments on people that led to them becoming more sick and so patients should no longer seek medical advice from him".

Similarly, a body of scholars, after their investigations, found that he isn't fit to issue religious verdicts.

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Other Ayatollahs can dish out their own viewpoints, interpretations and opinions on various issues at will, but this particular scholar is excluded and indirectly branded a deviant for doing so. This makes so much sense.

Where do you draw the line on 'viewpoints'? Imagine if a scholar says it's fine to marry a bhuddist.

Then someone like you comes along and says the exact same thing "Other Ayatollahs can dish out their own viewpoints, interpretations and opinions on various issues at will, but this particular scholar is excluded and indirectly branded a deviant for doing so. This makes so much sense."

So if Ayatullah XYZ says marrying bhuddists is halal, would you also dare repeat what you just said? And if not, why not?

By this logic, no limit is drawn on 'viewpoints'. Yeh, that makes even more sense.

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Why is it so strange to believe that a Marja can be demoted? Marjas are no more than experts in their field. Experts in fields such as Medicine, science, etc. routinely get kicked out from their professional organizations. For example, a scientist caught faking experimental data will get kicked out of his organization, and lawyers who break their rules do get disbarred.

Should a Marja be above criticism for ever? Is he infallible? If he is not, then should a Marja who has broken the rules of his professional organization be allowed to be a member of that organization?

I do not know anything about Ayatollah Sanei, but I'm just speaking in a general sense.

I feel that just to oppose the IRI, otherwise normally rational people enter into a state of "self-imposed temporary stupidity" where they understand inside irrationality of a anti-IRI argument, but still believe in it.

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Where do you draw the line on 'viewpoints'? Imagine if a scholar says it's fine to marry a bhuddist.

Then someone like you comes along and says the exact same thing "Other Ayatollahs can dish out their own viewpoints, interpretations and opinions on various issues at will, but this particular scholar is excluded and indirectly branded a deviant for doing so. This makes so much sense."

So if Ayatullah XYZ says marrying bhuddists is halal, would you also dare repeat what you just said? And if not, why not?

By this logic, no limit is drawn on 'viewpoints'. Yeh, that makes even more sense.

does he really say that though? i seen macissac's post about his research into sanei and beside what i was thinking there seems to be other issues.

if he don't allow muta marriage to disbelievers then i was clearly mistaken.

Edited by Maitham

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does he really say that though? i seen macissac's post about his research into sanei.

if not then i was clearly mistaken.

No he didn't say that, at least not that i know of, i haven't checked. It was just a hypothetical situation used to explore the notion that any individual that's reached scholarship, can make startling verdicts, and permitted to continue issuing verdicts based on the logic used by Shi3a.

Becoming a scholar doesn't spell free reign, and a mechanism must be in place to keep this in check, for without it, we risk having rogue scholars left unhindered to misguide.

Ayat Tabrizi for instance, took it upon himself to do his research into Fadhlallah by sending some of his students to Lebanon before issuing his hikma against him. He took the initiative on his own however, he never went through a scholarly body like was done in this example.

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Apologists for 'marja-ism' should have at least some shame. Tell me, if he'd been granted the right to deduce rulings independently from the rules of Islam then how on Earth would a collective body be able to say his viewpoint on xyz is incorrect?!?

There are thousands of differing rulings from marja, that's nothing new so that can't be the reason as he's a jurist.

He was obviously deemed to be capable enough of ijtehad so, unless he was no longer sane, explain to me (ideally without resorting to abuse or quoting man-made rules of the collective) why he's no longer capable to do the same?

NO non-fallible is beyond reproach but unless he dropped an ALMIGHTY clanger (like declaring homosexuality halaal or eating pork acceptable) then stop kowtowing to your man-made ideals and just THINK for yourselves for once.

I still remember how agha Montazeri (heir in waiting of Sayyid Khomeini) went from shining light to disgraced nobody because he dared criticize WeF, this has shades of a similar tinge.

The sooner Shi'ah of Maula ali (as) stop worshipping the priesthood the better; scholars are for guidance people, not prostration.....

ALI

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I see, ya aba, and i could be wrong as i have not found any evidence, i thought i read something on shiachat some years back.

as to some others, i think since the grounds is about his fatwa, that is what we should investigate first, as if it could be proven that what he says is inline with islamic fiqh, then you can say it is merely political.

From what I remember, he was not demoted at all, but rather questions arose about him so he was investigated and found not to be a marja in the first place. It would be helpful if the actual statement of the hawza could be brought forth for full clarification. Many of you are throwing accusations around without actually having knowledge of the full picture. This is dangerous.

As for those of you who say it is political, why does the hawza permit Ayatullah Waheed Khorasani, who is known to not believe in wilayat al-faqih mutlaq, to give one of the largest (if not the largest) dars al-kharij classes in Qum? I have met people who studied under him and lets just say that they are not very high on the Islamic Republic. So if the hawza is so fiercely against its opponents, why is he being allowed to publicly spread his views to so many students?

Also, what about Sayyid Sadiq Shirazi? A brother on here recently posted a link to a video of him saying that those who oppose tatbir are like Yazid and imams of kufr. He even posted an istiftaa he sent to Shirazi's office about it with an affirmative reply that it was said. Yet his office and marja'iyya remains untouched. Why?

There is more to the story than you e-"intellectuals" think you know.

Salam alaykom, he was not a marja at all? do you recall why that was?

Edited by Maitham

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(salam) (bismillah)

Has anyone confirmed this? From what you guys are saying he did have some very strange fatwas, but nobody has really provided reliable sources so far.

Oh and PS. I think we should try to keep the tone respectful and not diverge, I don't want this thread locked before we come to a conclusion.

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(salam) (bismillah)

Has anyone confirmed this? From what you guys are saying he did have some very strange fatwas, but nobody has really provided reliable sources so far.

Oh and PS. I think we should try to keep the tone respectful and not diverge, I don't want this thread locked before we come to a conclusion.

Q1160: What is the verdict on entering into temporary marriage with non-Muslim women such as Catholic Christians, Buddhists, and those with unknown faiths?

A: In case of a Muslim man’s need and necessity in such countries and in case Muslim women or those from the People of the Book are not available, it will be permissible provided that the Muslim man makes certain they will not become pregnant, and that it will be for such a short time that he will not be influenced by the woman’s atheistic thoughts and beliefs which deserve loss and punishment. Basically, Islam regards temporary marriage as a means of satisfying men’s needs while being in hardship and under the pressure of sexual desires, but not as some sort of legal debauchery and extramarital sex. Therefore, those who have wives with whom they can satisfy their sexual desires should not enter into temporary marriage even with Muslim women, otherwise they would ruin their family life, their tranquility and comfort, and would suffer hundreds of other losses.

http://saanei.org/?v...#02,02,09,239,0

But if you contact the sistani office, they will tell you that you can do mut'a with whoever you like as long as you get them to take their shahada first

don't know how much faith you put in wiki, here is some other stuff

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Yousef_Sanei

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To say his "demotion" had nothing to do with politics is simply absurd. People should remember this happened right around the time of the election protests when he came out in support of the protesters, and they in turn were looking to him as a marja` on their side (remember how government supporters in turn went and trashed his office). This is the difference between him and more traditionalist maraji` who are not in support of the government in that the latter largely have stayed away from political scene, and reformists have not looked to them for guidance by and large (being as they tend to be very conservative). If it was a simply a matter that Saanei has tended to be more "liberal" in his rulings, then why go after him while not going after someone like Jannati who is far more "liberal" in his rulings than even Saanei?

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Maybe your right macissac, though in your opinion he has alot of strange fatwa as well.

was that around a year investigation not true as well though? and of course other marja should be looked into as well. i am not trying the clear iran of any misdoing, i am not into politics like most of you guys.

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Maybe your right macissac, though in your opinion he has alot of strange fatwa as well.

was that around a year investigation not true as well though? and of course other marja should be looked into as well. i am not trying the clear iran of any misdoing, i am not into politics like most of you guys.

what Marja does not have strange fatwas?

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