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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Saintly_Jinn23

Sc On Syria Poll 2012

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I'd just like to know SC members' general consensus on the matters at hand.

My issue is that in order for a sufficient balance to be maintained where the whole Middle East isn't controlled by Israel's proxies and indebted to it, a strong and resistant Syria is important, but this should not come at the expense of the livelihood or democratic will of the people. Originally, I was all for Bashar, but his lack of being able to restore Syria back to normal is irritating. I don't think he's directly responsible for all of Syria's issues at this moment, that would give him too much credit, imho. So I think that even if Bashar stepped down, nothing would really be fixed cause the problem has never really been Bashar. But even if he is not directly responsible himself for the continued violence between the security forces (who are certainly guilty of human rights violations) and the opposition (whom I don't think anyone can deny has had its share of violent elements from day one), he has demonstrated a criminal lack of capability to restore stability.

Edited by Saintly_Jinn23

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It is amazing how the tiny country of Israel can twist the underwear of so many people and nations.

That is when you hide the FACTS!

Israel is the tiny underwear who is being pulled by the giant unjust powers... like the US, Britain, and many more!

Do you think Israel would exist or even last a few days without these powers?

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Originally, I was all for Bashar, but his lack of being able to restore Syria back to normal is irritating.

I was watching the speech of Seyyed Nasrallah and he said something quite interesting. He mentions that the Hezbollah has reliable sources on the ground in Homs, not in any way or form affiliated with the regime, and according to them, there is nothing going on there, besides isolated firing here and there. If I had to chose between the sources of Seyyed, and what we hear on aljazeera and bbc, theres little doubt in my mind who I'd chose.

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I was watching the speech of Seyyed Nasrallah and he said something quite interesting. He mentions that the Hezbollah has reliable sources on the ground in Homs, not in any way or form affiliated with the regime, and according to them, there is nothing going on there, besides isolated firing here and there. If I had to chose between the sources of Seyyed, and what we hear on aljazeera and bbc, theres little doubt in my mind who I'd chose.

From the way news over here makes it look, you'd think Syria was at civil war.

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I was watching the speech of Seyyed Nasrallah and he said something quite interesting. He mentions that the Hezbollah has reliable sources on the ground in Homs, not in any way or form affiliated with the regime, and according to them, there is nothing going on there, besides isolated firing here and there. If I had to chose between the sources of Seyyed, and what we hear on aljazeera and bbc, theres little doubt in my mind who I'd chose.

I almost feel sorrowful because of you but then I realized you must be thoroughly brain washed and can't help yourself. [REMOVED]

These threads are bringing out the truth about many people, for instance this kidnapper has such contemp for his supporter's intellect that he would tell them such a whopping lie.

It really is funny that he will talk such BS and people will actually believe it. I can't wait until this regime falls the complete truth comes out and these foolhardy people will have to eat their words.

Homs has been bombarded by Syrian tanks, mortars and what not and the kidnapper calls it "isolated firing here and there" that is not understatement buT BS. HAHAHAHAHA

Edited by Replicant
Insulting member and a scholar

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Nice thread.. Solution for Syrians is democracy with constitutional guarantees for minorities and almost equal say in every matter, sort of repeat of Lebanon but this time around, the president needs to be an Alawiit, Prime Minster a Shia Twelver, and the speaker of parliament a non-salafi Sunni.

Army still squarely in the hands of Alawaiites and Shia Twelvers so they can keep Syria allied with resistance. Sunnis are generally too gullible to be used by hands in glove with Israel pro-imperialists Salafis and hence can not be trusted to be given any leading role in affairs, of course, this all for the sake of preservation of human dignity and civility in Syrian politics.

It's a bitter pill, but for past 1000 years, Sunnis have repeatedly proved themselves to be totally unfit to take any leading role in any significant political juncture.

The 1-2% Salafis that Syria has, well they need to be annihilated, no even worth sending the children of Satan back to Saudi Arabia as they will eventually cause troubles. A very small sacrifice to preserve humanity in Syrian part of the world.

Edited by Waiting for HIM

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Syria deserves a democratic, secular, and non sectarian state like they have in Turkey, and are developing in Tunisia, where the decisions of government are given to the people of Syria, and were the government respects human rights, and is accountable to the people, that should be the final outcome .

So I think that even if Bashar stepped down, nothing would really be fixed cause the problem has never really been Bashar

The problem in Syria is the Assad family and Bashar who was apointed to the position of president for the sole reason that he was the son of Hafez, bashar is a symbol of the dictadorship in Syria, if he were to step down (which is the only precondition of the opposition) then true dialog could be had, but until then nothing will happen. Also bashar's brother controls the army and security forces of Syria and has been the head of the crack down and his cousin hafez and brother in law Assif control the intelligence services of Syria.

Edited by Noura

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Syria deserves a democratic, secular, and non sectarian state like they have in Turkey, and are developing in Tunisia, where the decisions of government are given to the people of Syria, and were the government respects human rights, and is accountable to the people, that should be the final outcome .

You really think low of the Syrian people, this type of 'we mean well' anti-Islamic secularist paternalism is why your kind has stooge dictators living in countries like Saudi Arabia and why the crumbs off that table are worming behind the Turkish regime as a last breath. Syria will not be a darwinian obsessed junta, nor a failed satellite state.

.

Edited by bolbol

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What the hell....Syria needs to be like Lebanon ? Lebanon is a failed State , what the hell to say about a country where a person is classified according to 125 different sects, has to elect a person to parliament from a specific sect. Iraq is going down the drain, lest just hope Syria will not be like any of thiese. But infact this has been Iranian plan all along, they expolit the rich religious variety in the Fertile Crescent for their own advantages and want to create "confessional states" all along the Fertile Crescent, damn them.

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Syria deserves a democratic, secular, and non sectarian state like they have in Turkey, and are developing in Tunisia, where the decisions of government are given to the people of Syria, and were the government respects human rights, and is accountable to the people, that should be the final outcome .

Umm.. Noura, go play with your barbies dear. I don't think you are in politics.

Syria IS a secular and non sectarian state.

The problem in Syria is the Assad family and Bashar who was apointed to the position of president for the sole reason that he was the son of Hafez, bashar is a symbol of the dictadorship in Syria, if he were to step down (which is the only precondition of the opposition) then true dialog could be had, but until then nothing will happen. Also bashar's brother controls the army and security forces of Syria and has been the head of the crack down and his cousin hafez and brother in law Assif control the intelligence services of Syria.

The problem isn't with Bashar al Assad or dictatorships.

Dictatorship is in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. How come nobody talks about them?

The problem with the Syrian regime, is that it is part of the "Axis of Evil", it takes a stand of Resistance. Bashar al Assad stands with Ahmadi Nejad, & Sayyed Hassan Nasrollah.

Kiss your dictatorship democracy games good bye. They lie to you, but becuse you don't understand politics, you believe. So go find something else to do dear.

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Syria is being ruined by an unjust, unelected dictator that is killing thousands of his own people to keep his grip on power. Period.

Will things get better when Bashar is sent the way of the Shah, Hussein and Gaddafi? Hard to say as the military is very strong and well-organized. It depends on if the military respects the will of the people or (like the anti-Revolutionary Guard in Iran) they look out for their own political and financial interests and seek to gain at the expense of the population. It is also possible that for some period there is a power struggle between a variety of factions. The point is the people have spoken.

Hey, hey...ho, ho...ass Asses & Assads have to go!

Power to the people and good riddance Bashar. Democracy is a [Edited Out] and she's pro-creating, making it difficult for those that seek to enslave the people of the Mid-east using the guise of Islam as a false shield for their ungodly and unjust actions.

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The first question is too simplistic:

Would Bashar's Stepping Down Fix Anything Or Make It Worse?

It depends on whether you are asking this based on the short or long term and whether it is better for whom? There is no doubt that him stepping down would result in more chaos in the immediate short-term, but the level of violence gradually subsides, as with Iraq, although of course not completely, and again like Iraq, one must ask at what costs, especially in human lives.

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The postures of Sunnis against Assad is of course hypocritical. Not only is Sunni Islam based on an even more rigid form of dictatorship, self-rule, ethnocentric totalitarianism, the fact that this is made as a 'case' against Assad, and how he allegedly violently massacres his enemies is of course, inherently Sunni. So one would expect them to be sympathetical to Assad knowing the the historical conduct of their caliphs.

On the other hand, the role of the Persian Gulf states remains dominant, their propaganda has incorporated Sunnis into their world view, that 'they' and their Wahhabist clergymen represent Islam, and that they must be defended against the evil Shia (including the possible hostile Assad), even if one does not agree with their dogma on an ideological level.

So what the Saud family has produced are a bunch of bricolage (shopping around for argument) Sunnis who will remain silent and/or invest minimal effort on Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, out of fear that the Shia might gain the upper hand but are loudspeakers when it comes to Syria.

.

Edited by bolbol

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The postures of Sunnis against Assad is of course hypocritical. Not only is Sunni Islam based on an even more rigid form of dictatorship, self-rule, ethnocentric totalitarianism, the fact that this is made as a 'case' against Assad, and how he allegedly violently massacres his enemies is of course, inherently Sunni. So one would expect them to be sympathetical to Assad knowing the the historical conduct of their caliphs.

On the other hand, the role of the Persian Gulf states remains dominant, their propaganda has incorporated Sunnis into their world view, that 'they' and their Wahhabist clergymen represent Islam, and that they must be defended against the evil Shia (including the possible hostile Assad), even if one does not agree with their dogma on an ideological level.

So what the Saud family has produced are a bunch of bricolage Sunnis who will remain silent and/or invest minimal effort on Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, etc. but are loudspeakers when it comes to Syria.

The biggest mistake you are making is to assume the "Sunnis" represent some unified monolithic bloc, and even within Salafis they are not monolithic (you have Salafis who deem it haram to oppose a ruler, and those who see it as justified to bare arms against a ruler who doesn't fulfil Sharia).

If you are going to label any Sunni who opposes Bashar as "hypocritical", one can use the exact same argument to those Shia members who only bemoan the situation in Bahrain, yet are equally silent on the issue of civillians being killed in Syria, or even denying such a thing happens at the hands of the regime outright.

You are also gravely mistaken if you think the average Sunni neccessarily backs Saudi Arabia, when if you have sat and spoken with the average Sunni, you would know many of them are against the very idea of a royal family in the Islamic heartland, let alone the corruption they spew.

Also you must realise the situation of the modern Middle East (with it's Western instilled/backed monarchies and dictators) is not based on Sunni Islam, but rather a by-product of Western imperialism, after the demise of the Ottoman empire, which many claim as the last Caliphate the Muslim world has had. This leads onto your allegation that Sunni Islam leads to an ethnocentric rigid form of rule, when as you know there have been more than one type of ethnicity who has had a leadership roles in "Sunni Islam", and if anything in comparison, and relatively, but of course not absolutely-speaking, Shia Islam is more ethnically homogenous when compared to Sunni Islam (Especially when you take into account the geo-political term of the Shia Crescent into consideration.), which is also why, for the most part, the most vocal supporters of Assad on here, are members from a Lebanese or Iranian background, as opposed to say Pakistani or Afghan Shia background, as Iran and Hezbollah have the most to lose, politically should he fall.

Edited by Propaganda_of_the_Deed

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Shia are defensive of Assad, not because he represents their community as a leader, but because he is attacked on basis of being a Shia, and that many Shia have been ethnically cleansed by the regime's opponents, who have, after failing to gather popular support to tumble the government, evoked anti-Shiite sentiment to invite jihadists to fight the evil Shia regime.

That is of course, completely in contrast to Qatar, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia, which educate Sunnis with channels like Al-Iqra, Al-Saffa and Aljazeera television, common channels 'educating' the Sunni masses, who neither know what Sunni Islam is, nor how it is practiced and look towards the rulers of Saudi Arabia with great awe. On the other hand, Sunnis who do disagree (as I positioned) are willing to remain silent for the moment, to deter a Shiite balance of power.

We should be very honest here, if those who are Sunni and love democracy for Syria, they are not really a Sunni. They are what has been described in social scientific works as an individualisation of Sunni Islam, a self made concoction of hipsters who do not know their dogma.

So we can divide the Sunni community's opposition in two forms: One is an irreligious class, who are not really Sunni and obsess over John Locke. The other is a Salafist/Wahhabist inspired ideologue who is a realpolitiker and is even during disagreements with NATO/Persian Gulf regimes, willing to give them a pass to conquer Syria for their Islamic utopia.

It is questionable why a Sunni would oppose Assad, while if the allegations are indeed true, would reflect the conduct of many their historical sages.

.,

Edited by bolbol

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Shia are defensive of Assad, not because he represents their community as a leader, but because he is attacked on basis of being a Shia, and that many Shia have been ethnically cleansed by the regime's opponents, who have, after failing to gather popular support to tumble the government, evoked anti-Shiite sentiment to invite jihadists to fight the evil Shia regime.

I have seen you bring up this weak point several times before, unfortunately for you however, this line of reasoning doesn't fit too well with the wider region's protest movement, which sought to oppose the same type of dictators who were not elected by the people, and if anything they all share a common feature in secularism - no matter how you try to paint Assad as some besieged Shia warrior - he is at best part of a minority break-off sect of the Alawis, and above all he is a secularist.. he isn't ruling in the name of Shia Islam, and his father certainly didn't either.

And no, it is not a matter of "Shia are defensive of Assad", it's political Shias of a Lebanese or Iranian background who are.

The Shias who are more inclined to the standing up against justice and oppression would see that it supporting Bashar is for the betterment of Iranian foreign policy.

I do not have any affiliations with any nation-state, which is why I'm not afraid to speak out about oppression if it is in Bahrain or Syria.

We should be very honest here, if those who are Sunni and love democracy for Syria, they are not really a Sunni. They are what has been described in social scientific works as an individualisation of Sunni Islam, a self made concoction of hipsters who do not know their dogma.

Likewise, we should distinguish between political- Shias who are blindly supporting a secular with Alawi origins (and let's face it isn't really based on any Shia solidarity), for the power politics, and those who will speak out against oppression no matter or what is being targetted, as this is more in line with what the Imam's taught them.

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Syria IS a secular and non sectarian state.

yes but he is a baath and the baath are tyrants and torture and kill and massacre that is what is bad with him, and put his clan and family in power, people in Syria want democracy.

The problem isn't with Bashar al Assad or dictatorships.

Dictatorship is in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. How come nobody talks about them?

The problem with the Syrian regime, is that it is part of the "Axis of Evil", it takes a stand of Resistance. Bashar al Assad stands with Ahmadi Nejad, & Sayyed Hassan Nasrollah.

No one cares about Resistance when the leader is a corupt tyrant, who is willing to kill thosands of people and what is resistance ? ? ? . Also Bahrain and Saudi Arabia will have revolutions when their oil is near done inshallah, that is something that will evnentually happen, and dosen't happen now in the gulf because the leaders are bribeing the majority.

Bobol

The people of Syria want a democracy as do the rest of the people in the region and not a backward government, or a caliphate or a torture government that is what you don't understand, because I think you don't really know what a tyrany is that is willing to kill babies and torture kids. Bashar is very much like Israel in that sense. Also the opposition is not sectarian it is bashar who's shabbiha and elite forces (Which are exclusivly alawite) , have been going into Sunni and mixed neighberhoods and massacreing and torturing sunnis from shia and christians, it is bashar who has helped the salafi with such actions . And Homs is twice as large as Bahrain, that is why people focus on Syria more then Bahrain . And no one looks to Saudi Arabia for leadership, most Sunnis are not Salafis.

Edited by Noura

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Hold on Noura the things like torture, bombing neighborhoods, govt snipers killing people on the streets, denials of medical treatment and every other act are not even happening. I will have to search for the quote but the head man of Hezbollah and a spiritual leader said there was only sporadic rifle fire in Homs. This must be true so we have to reverse direction,

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Hezbollah and march 8 have put everything on bashar and the Ba'ath and they are making a huge and tremendous mistake because history and events are against such regimes .

Hezbollah are not makeing a mistake by supporting Bashar especially since the fact that the reason why the west are against him is clearly not because they support the oppressed Syrian people, just look at the wests stance in regards to the uprising in Bahrain for solid proof, but the reason is more because of the support he offers towards their resistance organisation, if Bashar was a supporter of Israel and co- operated with Israel just like king 5arrah of jordan, then he would be a good guy in the west and those protesting would be crushed just like the Bahraini protesters have beeen. So what would be the sence in hezbollah giong against and alienating their alley, when the whole reason behind the wests support for the rebellion is to coerse him away from hezbollah.

Hezbollah are not stupid!!

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Hezbollah are not makeing a mistake by supporting Bashar especially since the fact that the reason why the west are against him is clearly not because they support the oppressed Syrian people, just look at the wests stance in regards to the uprising in Bahrain for solid proof, but the reason is more because of the support he offers towards their resistance organisation, if Bashar was a supporter of Israel and co- operated with Israel just like king 5arrah of jordan, then he would be a good guy in the west and those protesting would be crushed just like the Bahraini protesters have beeen. So what would be the sence in hezbollah giong against and alienating their alley, when the whole reason behind the wests support for the rebellion is to coerse him away from hezbollah.

Hezbollah are not stupid!!

Is the Ba'ath support to "resistance" principled ? Is the Ba'ath support of the Palestinian principled and even real? And has the syrian regime used its military once like it is doing now (to massacre it's people) to get the golan back since the october war has it responded once to an israel provication ???Also the Syrian regime supported the Saudi sending troops to bahrain .

Edited by Noura

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People can say all they like about Syria not fireing a bullet over the golan or that they only pretend to support resistance, but the truth is that by Syria not even recognising Israel or by not even submiting to a land for peace deal they are showing greater resistance than all the other arab countries, while the other arabs criticize hamas, Syria gave them a headquarters to fight their cause, and when the South-Lebanon and gaza wars occuredd, Syria vocally criticized the Israel and supported the resistance while the gulf arab states with all their crocodile tears actually had the taunacity to criticize hezbollah and hamas.

True Syria has not fired a bullet over the golan but who are the others to talk, will they support Syria in a war with Israel, will they back her up or will they more than likley canabilize her??

The reason why the syrian regime supported the sending of troops to Bahrain was probably because the Syrian regime knew what was going to happen in Syria and by agreeing with the Saudis it would further highlight the hypocricy in Saudi Arabia's stance if they ever decieded to turn against their "former alley" Syria which in tune, they have, I believe the Saudis and all the other gulf countries have over-played their cards in this crisis and they have probably left the door open for a "what gos around comes around" scenario.

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yes but he is a baath and the baath are tyrants and torture and kill and massacre that is what is bad with him, and put his clan and family in power, people in Syria want democracy.

Not really, if you really do watch TV and read politics correctly, give me on Goal, the Free Syrian Army gave, or any part of the opposition gave.

No one cares about Resistance when the leader is a corupt tyrant, who is willing to kill thosands of people and what is resistance ? ? ? . Also Bahrain and Saudi Arabia will have revolutions when their oil is near done inshallah, that is something that will evnentually happen, and dosen't happen now in the gulf because the leaders are bribeing the majority.

Let me remind you new girl, that the Majority in Bahrain, want the current regime to leave.

But it is because israel and America are behind the Saudi regime and behind the Bahrain regime.

Just like you said it, revolutions in Saudi Arabia will happen when oil finishes..why? Because USA won't have any benefit from KSA, so they wouldn't care if it burns to the ground.

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I wish we could roll back time to when the US was not propping up and installing dictators in the region when all of the gulf states and the rest of the ME was complete with free democratic societies. I am sure we all can agree on that

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I wish we could roll back time to when the US was not propping up and installing dictators in the region when all of the gulf states and the rest of the ME was complete with free democratic societies. I am sure we all can agree on that

Shouldn't you be insulting members and scholars of the Shia religion?

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Noura if I want to listen to State Department or Rousseau, I know where to find their remarks.

This is a forum, where people exchange ideas that are their own.

Your herdish replies are comically repugnant.

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