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-Enlightened

Shiachat Memes! [OFFICIAL THREAD]

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Urdu is going to die sooner or later and the FIR will be registered against the Pakis.

 

You reminded me of Rais Amrohvi's couplet in the aftermath of 1970s language riots: Urdu ka janaza hai, zaraa shaan se nikley.

 

khair.

 

 

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Lol it's grammatically incorrect but it's vernacular, and it's acceptable. This is not so bad; you should listen to these convent-graduates and other foreign-run schoolkids. When they speak Urdu, they speak it with 50% or more of English vocabulary, sometimes switching completely to English as if to express themselves more clearly, which also doubles as a 'status symbol'.

 

 

Well, I am like that but I usually resort to English based on context and habit. I am very much a habitual person and, so, for example, with my family, since I've always talked in Urdu, I find even the notion of talking to them in English "weird". It's just unnatural for me. With my schools friends, since the context is one where I've always talked to them in English, Urdu is out of the question.  Oh, and can I be exempted if I left the country when 8 and never returned to studying Urdu? Compared to a lot of people, my vocabulary is quite good in some areas - thanks to Ali Murtaza Zaidi who's like Shakespeare for Urdu in his lectures.

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Well, I am like that but I usually resort to English based on context and habit. I am very much a habitual person and, so, for example, with my family, since I've always talked in Urdu, I find even the notion of talking to them in English "weird". It's just unnatural for me. With my schools friends, since the context is one where I've always talked to them in English, Urdu is out of the question.  Oh, and can I be exempted if I left the country when 8 and never returned to studying Urdu? Compared to a lot of people, my vocabulary is quite good in some areas - thanks to Ali Murtaza Zaidi who's like Shakespeare for Urdu in his lectures.

 

Yeah I understand your point mate. I don't hold anything against those who haven't had a chance to study their native/national language properly because they had to move out of the country and schooled in foreign school systems, so that happens. And many natives also use English words abundantly in Urdu conversation so much so that it has become an acceptable vernacular. I am not an exception; I do the same, because if I don't I'd sound out of place lol.

 

Anyway picture time!

 

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But, then, you shouldn't really also blame the kids as much - it's only partly their fault. I mean, do you spend time learning Sanskrit because your ancestors spoke it? If the system is such, you can't really expect the kid to take much time from his already arduous Physics and Mathematics to study what is - and, this is the unfortunate truth and something that should definitely be changed - in practical terms, useless for him. Sure, he should make more of an effort but if he doesn't, you can't blame him too much; we do things because of our motivations and if there isn't a real one for learning Urdu, apart from those who do so as a intellectual exercise, he won't do it, especially since there is such an emphasis placed on English.

 

Have you come across that reddit by a guy who was accidentally mailed a US Army drone - albiet just parts of it - by UPS? The comments there are HILARIOUS!

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But, then, you shouldn't really also blame the kids as much - it's only partly their fault. I mean, do you spend time learning Sanskrit because your ancestors spoke it? If the system is such, you can't really expect the kid to take much time from his already arduous Physics and Mathematics to study what is - and, this is the unfortunate truth and something that should definitely be changed - in practical terms, useless for him. Sure, he should make more of an effort but if he doesn't, you can't blame hime too much; we do things becaus of our motivations and if there isn't a real one for learning Urdu, apart from those who do so as a intellectual exercise, he won't do it, especially since there is such an emphasis placed on English.

 

Have you come across that reddit by a guy who was accidentally mailed a US Army drone - albiet just parts of it - by UPS? The comments there are HILARIOUS!

 

Are you saying this for kids born and bred outside Pakistan or inside? Because I an not talking about those born and/or brought outside Pakistan. They have a good excuse. But those in Pakistan have no excuse, neither their parents. How come learning to read/write your everyday language could be useless? Whereas Sanskrit is a dead language found only in old books, like Aramaic and old Hebrew, Urdu is a everyday living necessity. It's more practical than knowing Newton's three laws!

 

Comparison with technical subjects like maths and physics doesn't really hold, not least because those subjects need a language to carry them. if not Urdu than English., if not English than French.

 

Remember we are not talking about some advanced, literary and intellectual study of the language but simple day to day writing/reading abilities that EVERYBODY in Pakistan once had, rich or poor, brown sahib or paindu, until these inferiority-complexed English medium fever took over.

 

Like, can you be a native to a Spanish speaking country without knowing Spanish and contending yourself with knowledge of English? How retarded that would be?

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Like, can you be a native to a Spanish speaking country without knowing Spanish and contending yourself with knowledge of English? How retarded that would be?

Very. Even Spanish-speaking colonies of English-speaking nations have kept their mother tongue. Take Puerto Rico, for example. Everyone knows Spanish despite the fact that it belongs to the English-speaking USA.

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Are you saying this for kids born and bred outside Pakistan or inside? Because I an not talking about those born and/or brought outside Pakistan. They have a good excuse. But those in Pakistan have no excuse, neither their parents. How come learning to read/write your everyday language could be useless? Whereas Sanskrit is a dead language found only in old books, like Aramaic and old Hebrew, Urdu is a everyday living necessity. It's more practical than knowing Newton's three laws!

 

Comparison with technical subjects like maths and physics doesn't really hold, not least because those subjects need a language to carry them. if not Urdu than English., if not English than French.

 

Remember we are not talking about some advanced, literary and intellectual study of the language but simple day to day writing/reading abilities that EVERYBODY in Pakistan once had, rich or poor, brown sahib or paindu, until these inferiority-complexed English medium fever took over.

 

Like, can you be a native to a Spanish speaking country without knowing Spanish and contending yourself with knowledge of English? How retarded that would be?

 

Those born and bred inside the country. Yes, it is certainly not necessary and I speak from experience. As I've mentioned above, I left Pakistan when I was eight and, so, I can barely read Urdu and wirting? Well, it's out of question. Sure, I am relatively good with the Arabic alphabet (I am even learning a bit of Arabic now but in Urdu, there's spellings and what not, plus you don't have the diacritical marks, which makes both reading and writing quite a lot harder). And, I've been living here for the past three months and, apart from the need to converse in Urdu (which I can do just as well, though I am sure I make many of those technical mistakes you guys mentioned above - then again, everyone does) I have never really needed the ability to read or write. I mean, the Khoja Jamaat (I only mention them because I came across this recently and because of how conservative the organisation is - I wouldn't be surprised if they were asking people to write in Gujrati) forms are in Urdu. All the governmental applications? I really don't need to know how to read or write, except maybe when I need to reed those fleeting-fast headlines.

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Those born and bred inside the country. Yes, it is certainly not necessary and I speak from experience. As I've mentioned above, I left Pakistan when I was eight and, so, I can barely read Urdu and wirting? Well, it's out of question. Sure, I am relatively good with the Arabic alphabet (I am even learning a bit of Arabic now but in Urdu, there's spellings and what not, plus you don't have the diacritical marks, which makes both reading and writing quite a lot harder). And, I've been living here for the past three months and, apart from the need to converse in Urdu (which I can do just as well, though I am sure I make many of those technical mistakes you guys mentioned above - then again, everyone does) I have never really needed the ability to read or write. I mean, the Khoja Jamaat (I only mention them because I came across this recently and because of how conservative the organisation is - I wouldn't be surprised if they were asking people to write in Gujrati) forms are in Urdu. All the governmental applications? I really don't need to know how to read or write, except maybe when I need to reed those fleeting-fast headlines.

 

Language is culture. You change the language you change the culture. When Turks changed their script they lost their whole old tradition. Now they are crypto-Europeans, neither accepted in the West nor in the East.

 

Maybe in big Pak cities one doesn't need to know how to read/write Urdu since almost all administrative work is done in English and most hoardings are also in English but Urdu remains the language of communication outside the tight and nebulous circle of elite English-medium-school goers. If one doesn't know how to read and write it, well then they are living in an urban bubble, where people are more in tune with what's going on in London and New York than in Lahore and Quetta. Burger kids.

 

The worrying bit is that outside the elite English-medium school circle, the kids who come out of average English medium schools don't have good English skills anyway, (so low is the quality of English taught there) and since no emphasis is placed on their Urdu, they are not good with Urdu either. So we have these legions of high school kids with limited, basic capacity for English and an equally pathetic capacity for Urdu. So they can't read and write properly in either language lol.

 

This is a crisis of language and it's shameful for those Pakis who were educated in Pakistan. Whichever language you come to learn, at least learn it properly. For this reason start with Urdu and then move on to English as a foreign language, because if you are not good in any language, you can't learn a new language because you have nothing to compare it to.

Edited by Marbles

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I agree and, like I'd said above, it's a shameful reality that needs to be changed. My point is, you can't blame the kid much since, as I have just demonstrated, apart from being able to converse, you don't really need to know how to read or write (I certainly haven't had to - maybe I am just a burger bacha). Either way, if it is our national language, shouldn't the government impose strict rules about making Urdu a lot more important in the cirriculum and, while they are at it, change their own systems to be mandated in Urdu. You can't blame the kid; you should blame those who are responsible for creating and maintaining such an English-centric system. Even you, I am sure, if you weren't born 30 years ago, when Urdu was a lot more important, would probably have not really made the effort to learn it properly if you didn't need it much and weren't forced by your school and teachers.

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I agree and, like I'd said above, it's a shameful reality that needs to be changed. My point is, you can't blame the kid much since, as I have just demonstrated, apart from being able to converse, you don't really need to know how to read or write (I certainly haven't had to - maybe I am just a burger bacha). Either way, if it is our national language, shouldn't the government impose strict rules about making Urdu a lot more important in the cirriculum and, while they are at it, change their own systems to be mandated in Urdu. You can't blame the kid; you should blame those who are responsible for creating and maintaining such an English-centric system. Even you, I am sure, if you weren't born 30 years ago, when Urdu was a lot more important, would probably have not really made the effort to learn it properly if you didn't need it much and weren't forced by your school and teachers.

 

No, I don't blame the kid but the parents, the society and the system; I blame the inferiority complex. If I were not born 30 years ago and were a product of a contemporary education, I believe I'd still be as good in Urdu (and Punjabi, and Saraiki which is my native tongue) as I am now. That's because even today if you choose your school carefully and parents pay attention to their child's learning, it is as easy to pick good language skills as it was 20/30 years ago. We needed Urdu as much back then as we need it now, and English was as important back then as it's now, and all the administrative work at high level businesses and in government departments was carried out in English back then, as it is now. So what's changed?

 

As for the argument that you don't really need to have Urdu reading/writing ability to function, as I said before, this is only true for a closely-knit and small social circle of elite people living in metropolises like Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad. Go any place else in the country and you can't survive without basic working knowledge of Urdu script.

 

Take, for instance, the practice of law. All of that is done in Urdu, from applications to affidavits and court summons. How a lawyer educated in Pakistan who can't write/read Urdu is going to practice law, even in those big cities? Another example is the exploding media. You don't know Urdu, you are as good as useless, since most newspapers remain in Urdu and there is not a single full time English language Pakistani channel (There were two but they both closed due to lack of demand, which tells you Urdu is still strong). There are other practical reasons for which one has to know Urdu to function.

 

Actually, those who have lived abroad for long periods of time and work abroad most of their year will not need Urdu to function, like yourself, but the example of such people is not a good one for those who live, work and function in Pakistan on a permanent basis.

 

If not knowing English puts you at a disadvantage in Pakistan, not knowing how to write/read Urdu also puts you at a disadvantage albeit in a different way.

Edited by Marbles

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