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In the Name of God بسم الله

How Are The Souls/universe "created"?

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wundermonk

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Greetings all:

Probably all theistic systems believe in an omniscient God, i.e., a God that knows the future.

God's knowledge is an inseparable attribute of God. The contents of God's knowledge are us souls/universe, what our behaviour is going to be, whether we are going to end up in hell/heaven, when the Day of Judgement is going to be, etc.

So, it appears that as long as God was/is, so was/is the knowledge about the souls/universe.

Thus, if God is eternal, so are the souls/universe at least in potential form. Now, it is true that we take physical birth at a finite time in the past, but this was always known to God for all eternity. We may be actualized at a particular time but our potentiality was always present.

Thus, God, souls and the universe were never non-existent. The souls and the universe may be ontologically dependent on God but chronologically/temporally, all three are coeval and hence beginningless. Anything that is beginningless does NOT have a creator. Thus, the knowledge of souls and the universe did NOT have a creator/author.

Any thoughts?

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Let us keep it to a dialogue.

Our Lord's knowledge is not limited to the future. Omniscient means He has the knowledge of what shall be or not be and what has been or has not been. Thus, with these attributes we have then once again limited our Lord to these four points. His knowledge is therefore indescribable.

Our souls, do they have a shape and form or not? Likewise, this Universe you speak about, does it have a shape or form?

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knowing bout souls does not makes out that the souls existed. he knew that sometime in future he is goin to make his best creation, so he made the souls.

best creation cannot mean that he is goin to make himself..so he created his best and to make us understand that we r the best he sent us into this world.try to trace from god to humans not from humans to god.

gd luck.

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His knowledge is therefore indescribable.

Possibly, but calling something "indescribable" should not mean that we stop questioning.

Our souls, do they have a shape and form or not? Likewise, this Universe you speak about, does it have a shape or form?

I do not know. Is the soul pervasive, is it atomic in size? I think the universe that I see around me does have a shape and a form.

In any case, I am talking of God's KNOWLEDGE of souls and the universe. Was God ever without this knowledge? If yes, that is, there was a point when God was WITHOUT knowledge of souls and the universe, then what caused that knowledge to come in God?

Usually, theists will claim God's knowledge is eternal. If so, why are NOT the contents of God's knowledge [knowledge about future souls and the universe] also eternal? If knowledge of future souls and the universe are eternal, they did not have a creator. They always were.

knowing bout souls does not makes out that the souls existed. he knew that sometime in future he is goin to make his best creation, so he made the souls.

I agree. That is why I made a distinction in the OP between being present as a part of God's eternal knowledge and taking physical birth.

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Possibly, but calling something "indescribable" should not mean that we stop questioning.

I do not know. Is the soul pervasive, is it atomic in size? I think the universe that I see around me does have a shape and a form.

In any case, I am talking of God's KNOWLEDGE of souls and the universe. Was God ever without this knowledge? If yes, that is, there was a point when God was WITHOUT knowledge of souls and the universe, then what caused that knowledge to come in God?

Usually, theists will claim God's knowledge is eternal. If so, why are NOT the contents of God's knowledge [knowledge about future souls and the universe] also eternal? If knowledge of future souls and the universe are eternal, they did not have a creator. They always were.

I agree. That is why I made a distinction in the OP between being present as a part of God's eternal knowledge and taking physical birth.

good going !!!

but theres a condition on questioning that when u r on the path of knowin,u cannot recede. cz if u stop questionin then u might start thinkin that u possess more knowledge than the normal human beings(engrossed by d world), nd may divulge u from d truth...........so there shd always be the things that r veiled so there theres something to b unveiled n to aspire for.

its hard to believe that god was alone for years and then he started thinkin that he shd create something nd then he created humans. n all,

i do not question these things now cz i have learnt much bout ageing .nd i have got much evidence of his love for us, so i think its time to learn more bout that love and act accordingly.

may u get the exact answer someday.

gd luck.

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Basically, you are stating that physically we are perpetual but the 'idea' of our existence is eternal?

Perhaps you meant something other than "perpetual" above?

But yes, what I am saying is that we were NEVER created. Sure, in a physical sense, we took birth at a finite point in time before. But if God exists and she is omniscient in the sense that the idea of our soul and the universe were always part of her knowledge content, then God is NOT the creator of that idea.

So, in my POV, God, souls and the universe are beginningless and authorless. All three of them are uncreated and coeval. There was no point of time when God alone was without (atleast the potentiality of) the other two ontological entities.

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Perhaps you meant something other than "perpetual" above?

But yes, what I am saying is that we were NEVER created. Sure, in a physical sense, we took birth at a finite point in time before. But if God exists and she is omniscient in the sense that the idea of our soul and the universe were always part of her knowledge content, then God is NOT the creator of that idea.

So, in my POV, God, souls and the universe are beginningless and authorless. All three of them are uncreated and coeval. There was no point of time when God alone was without (atleast the potentiality of) the other two ontological entities.

(bismillah)

I know that the world war ii happened, but it doesn't mean world war ii exists now because I know it. I also know that the Sun will 'rise' from the East tomorrow, but it doesn't mean that the Sun is actually rising from the East now.

God's knowledge of things does not mean the existence of those things. Thus, God still created and existentiated them while they were non-existing before.

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Al-Kafi H 349, Ch. 22, h 4

Muhaamd ibn abu ‘Abdallah in marfu‘ manner has narrated from Imam abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.)

who has said the following.

"Once Imam Amirul Mu’minin addressed the people in the Mosque of Kufa from the pulpit

and a man called dhi‘lab a very good orator and brave in heart said, "O Amirul Mu’minin,

have you seen your Lord?" The Imam replied, "Fie upon you O Dhi‘lab, how would I worship

a Lord whom I would not see?" The man said, "O Amirul Mu’minin how have you seen

Him?" The Imam said, "Fie up on you O Dhi‘lab, the eyes are not able to see Him physically

but it is the hearts that see Him through the truth of the faith. O Dhi‘lab, my Lord is subtle in

subtleties but can not be described by means of subtle matters. My Lord is great but can not

be described by means of greatness. His greatness surpasses all greatness but he can not be

described by means of such greatness. He is Glorious in His Glory but He can not be

described in terms of thickness. He is before everything and it can not be said that something

was before Him. He will be after all things but it can not be said that there is something after

Him. He willed the existence of things but not by means of first thinking about it. He

comprehends things but not with a great deal of efforts. Things are not mixed with Him and

nor is He indifferent about them. He is clearly manifest but not with contacts and changes. He

shines but not in the form of being found out with eye sight. He is far but not in the form of

distance. He is near but not in the form of nearness. He is very fine but not in the form of

physical fineness. He exists but not after nothingness. He acts but not because of being

forced. He measures things but not by means of movement. He wills but not by means of

thinking. He hears but not with tools. He sees but not with instruments. He is not contained in

place and held up in times. Attributes do not limit Him and slumber does not seize Him. His

Being was before the time and His existence was before nothingness. He was before eternity.

His giving the sense awareness prove that He does not have the tools for sensing. His giving

substance to the substances is proof that Himself is not a substance. The existence of a

contrary to everything is proof that there is nothing contrary to Him. His giving nearness to

things is proof that there is nothing similar to Him. He has made the light contrary to the

darkness, the wetness to the dryness, the harshness to the softness, the coldness to the heat.

He combines their transgressing and separates their closeness. The separation among things is

evidence of the existence of the One Who causes separation in them and their combinations is

evidence of the existence of the One Who combines them. It is jus as Allah has said, "We

have created everything in pairs so that perhaps you may take heed (51:49)." He has made a

distinction between the before and after to show that there is no before and after for Him. The

instincts show that the One who created the instincts Himself has no instinct. The time is

evidence that there is no timing for the One Who made the time. Things are hidden from each

other are evidence that nothing hides them from their Creator. He was the Lord when there

was nothing to enjoy His Lordship. He was to be worshipped when there was no worshipper.

He had the knowledge when there was nothing to know. He was hearing when there was

nothing to hear."

In other words, Allah created everything, nothing existed eternally except for Allah. So, according to the Shi'ite philosophy, what you are saying is wrong to us. But you're free to think that of course, it just means you aren't accepting the words of the `Aimmah (as), and therefore reject Islam.

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EDIT ADDED: God knows about things, souls and universe included - and God is eternal - so He eternally knows these things. But these things didn't eternally exist. They were just eternally known. Knowing something does not presume the existence of that thing. Thus, God still creates the things He knows.

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I know that the world war ii happened, but it doesn't mean world war ii exists now because I know it. I also know that the Sun will 'rise' from the East tomorrow, but it doesn't mean that the Sun is actually rising from the East now.

I already said that I am differentiating between a potential and an actual.

God's knowledge of things does not mean the existence of those things. Thus, God still created and existentiated them while they were non-existing before.

Yes, but I will not consider this creation. I would call the process more of a manifestation.

God is like a lamp that spreads light on pre-existing objects [in subtle form] revealing them. God's role converts the unknown to the known, subtle to gross, unmanifest to manifest.

Creation is when something did NOT exist previously in any form whatsoever [even a subtle form] is brought about.

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So, in my POV, God, souls and the universe are beginningless and authorless. All three of them are uncreated and coeval. There was no point of time when God alone was without (atleast the potentiality of) the other two ontological entities.

What makes you think that souls exist?

(Just out of curiosity)

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Knowing something does not presume the existence of that thing. Thus, God still creates the things He knows.

Again, creation gives the wrong impression here.

Contents of God's knowledge are uncreated.

What makes you think that souls exist?

(Just out of curiosity)

:-)

The honest answer to your question is dogma.

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Creation is when something did NOT exist previously in any form whatsoever [even a subtle form] is brought about.

(bismillah)

But there is no subtle form distinct from God. It's just God knowing things - but this 'knowledge' is not an object. When I say this seed is a potential tree, it doesn't mean that a subtle form of a tree exists. It just means that the seed will grow and later, it will have become a tree.

When I know about the Sun rising tomorrow, there is no subtle form lurking somewhere. It's just that I know and, if I so wish, can imagine it, and when tomorrow comes I will not be surprised.

When God eternally knows that Mubarak will be toppled by a revolution, it doesn't mean that He holds a subtle form of Mubarak. Something known is not an existing object, however subtle. It's just a state of the knower.

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What's the point in conversing on this subject with a person who merely believes 'because of dogma'?

Well, until proven conclusively, belief in the existence of souls is dogmatic. But that shouldnt detract from a discussion. As I mentioned in the OP, all theistic systems DO take for granted an omniscient God and the existence of souls as axiomatic. So, I dont see any reason why my belief in a soul [despite it being unproven] as opposed to its knowledge should detract from a discussion about it with other theists.

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ÈÓã Çááå ÇáÑÍãä ÇáÑÍíã

Possibly, but calling something "indescribable" should not mean that we stop questioning.

I disagree on that point. We would fall into disbelief due to our limited human intelligence.

I do not know. Is the soul pervasive, is it atomic in size? I think the universe that I see around me does have a shape and a form.

Alright, then there has to be a construction for these shapes and forms. Thus, we got an Author behind these intelligent creatures.

In any case, I am talking of God's KNOWLEDGE of souls and the universe. Was God ever without this knowledge? If yes, that is, there was a point when God was WITHOUT knowledge of souls and the universe, then what caused that knowledge to come in God?

In your first post you mentioned that God is omniscient. Thus, you have answered your question. Anyway, if God did not have these knowledge(s) then He had to learn it through experience. Would you deny it? If you deny this statement then you are denying the possibility of an Author [i.e. Creator]. Thus, God created everything without any reason nor knowledge; a play and sport.

God said:

[21:16] And We did not create the heaven and the earth and what is between them for sport.

[21:17] Had We wished to make a diversion, We would have made it from before Ourselves: by no means would We do (it). [surat al-'Anbya']

You are in a conflict between our knowledge and the Lord's knowledge. Our knowledge is through the natural system, an internal (batin) realm. Let us call it for conceptual invention. The knowledge we acquire, unlike the Lords, is through experience and this natural system. We, humans, like the ants or bees has a system that guides us towards a certain path. I shall explain this 'natural system'.

The Creator of this 'natural system' is God and thus he cannot be under its effect.

The Natural System

Ownership, as we do not see any concrete thing in the external [this] world that may be called ownership other than the substance of the owned thing and the owner (such as a piece of land and a man). Rather, this concept depends on intelligence without which there would be no ownership, owner or owned object, and there would be only man and land. So the first meaning [which relates to external realities] is called the real meaning, and the second [which is invented by the mind and somehow abstracted from objective realities] is called conceptual invention meaning.

Usually, theists will claim God's knowledge is eternal. If so, why are NOT the contents of God's knowledge [knowledge about future souls and the universe] also eternal? If knowledge of future souls and the universe are eternal, they did not have a creator. They always were.

Please, explain what you mean.

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Perhaps you meant something other than "perpetual" above?

The word 'perpetual' was used from an Islamic perspective. We are physically created and even after death will have a 'physical' existence forever (the physicality might differ from the form we are now). But I see that word can cause a problem if you believe our physical existence is temporary.

But yes, what I am saying is that we were NEVER created. Sure, in a physical sense, we took birth at a finite point in time before. But if God exists and she is omniscient in the sense that the idea of our soul and the universe were always part of her knowledge content, then God is NOT the creator of that idea.

But an 'idea' is dependent on a source....?

So, in my POV, God, souls and the universe are beginningless and authorless. All three of them are uncreated and coeval. There was no point of time when God alone was without (atleast the potentiality of) the other two ontological entities.

But looping together God (which exists) to His 'idea' seems flawed, even if the 'idea' is eternal.

Because the 'idea' would be within God (knowledge), as you said "The contents of God's knowledge are us souls/universe", hence you have given Him Ownership of the contents. Even if there was no point where God was without the two ideas, He still Owns it, even if the 'idea' is eternal.

Edited by Ugly Jinn
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See the hadith I posted.

The separation among things is

evidence of the existence of the One Who causes separation in them and their combinations is

evidence of the existence of the One Who combines them. It is jus as Allah has said, "We

have created everything in pairs so that perhaps you may take heed (51:49)." He has made a

distinction between the before and after to show that there is no before and after for Him. The

instincts show that the One who created the instincts Himself has no instinct. The time is

evidence that there is no timing for the One Who made the time. Things are hidden from each

other are evidence that nothing hides them from their Creator. He was the Lord when there

was nothing to enjoy His Lordship. He was to be worshipped when there was no worshipper.

He had the knowledge when there was nothing to know. He was hearing when there was

nothing to hear."

Edited by Dawud Miqdad al-Amriki
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