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Haydar Husayn

Shaykh Saduq On Intercession

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I dont follow sheikh Sadooq, hence I take narrations even from books of other scholars and hence highlighting this.

The person you replied to was specifically looking within Saduq's works.

in thawab al a'mal -rewards of the deeds- for Shiekh Sudouq , he wrote the title "the reward for asking Allh by Mohamad and his household

[ثواب من سأل الله بحق محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وأهل بيته] حدثني محمد بن الحسن قال حدثني محمد بن الحسن الصفار عن الحسن ابن علي عن العباس بن عامر عن أحمد بن رزق الله عن يحيى بن العلاء عن جابر عن أبي جعفر عليه السلام قال: ان عبدا مكث في النار سبعين خريفا والخريف سبعون سنة قال ثم إنه سأل الله بحق محمد وأهل بيته لما رحمتني فأوحى الله عز وجل إلى جبرئيل أن أهبط إلى عبدي وأخرجه. قال يا رب كيف لي بالهبوط في النار؟ قال عز وجل اني أمرتها أن تكون عليك بردا وسلاما، قال يا رب فأعلمني بموضعه قال إنه في جب في سجيل قال فهبط جبرئيل على النار على وجهه فأخرجه فقال الله عز وجل يا عبدي كم لبثت في النار؟ قال ما أحصي يا رب فقال وعزتي لولا ما سألتني به لأطلت هوانك في النار ولكني حتمت على نفسي ألا يسألني عبد بحق محمد وأهل بيته إلا غفرت له ما كان بيني وبينه وقد غفرت لك اليوم.

i've tried to find the term tawassul as we used it today in sudouq worrks , but as HH pointed , it dosnt seem to exist back then

i tried to change the words in my search , i looked for iste'anah istighatha tabaruk etc .. , i had no better luck

i used teh word waseelah , the word that is used in the most qouted verse from Quraan about tawassul , i found a title "the meaning of waseelah" which explains that waseelah is a degree that prophet gain in Jannah ,the hadith goes on to show how the angel of heaven -Ridhwan- and angel of hell -Malik- will give the keys of hell and heaven to Imam ali

in other places through out Sodouq works , there are hadiths and assertions about our belief in Imams , they are hujja they are khalifa , they are rulers and leaders they are the gates of Allah they are the Hitta gate they are Noah Ark they are eyes of Allah they are hands of Allah they are the reason this universe was created ! etc

Yes, he did.

No he didn't, since what you quoted isn't from the work I was making reference to. Anyway, it seems pretty clear that Shaykh Mufeed only believed that the Imams (as) could hear from near their shrines, not from anywhere. So this still falls short of what people do nowadays.

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Should be fine according to Sistani http://www.sistani.org/index.php?p=251364&id=50&pid=2483

Asking for intercession

Q193: Is it permissible to ask for sustenance, a child, protection or intercession directly from the infallible ones?

Follow up: Let me ask you first. Do you seek this from them because they create, or sustain, or protect?

Response: Certainly not. But rather because they are the means to Allah (s.w.t.), the intercessors with Him in the disposal of affairs, and because they cannot do anything but with the permission of Allah, the Sublime and Exalted.

Follow up: You mean that they ask Allah the Exalted and He creates, and they ask Him and He sustains, and they ask Him and He protects, and because they are intercessors, whose pleas or supplications are not rejected, because of their status with Allah, the Sublime, and for their guardianship over us?

Response: Yes, I mean that.

A: This is permissible. Allah (s.w.t.) says: ì...and seek means of nearness to Him...î (Qurían, 5:35) and they (a.s.) are your means of approach to Allah (s.w.t.). This is permissible. (FM, p. 421)

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I really think all of this is coming down to semantics and looping around word game. If I asked Nabi `Isa [as] to bring my father back to life while he was alive and I knew he could do this via the permission of Allah سبحانه وتعالى, that isn't shirk and kufr. Now, some just happen to believe that between death and life there is no difference between it for the chosen of Allah (swt) - whatever justification might be - so they continue to ask them favors.

Salam.

Regarding the part in the bold. Here are a couple of narrations:

[Part of a longer narration from Imam Sadiq (as) ]....Imam Ali (as) said:

يموت من مات منا و ليس بميت و يبقى من بقي منا

"..The One who Dies among us does not die (actually) and will remain.."

[source: Basair Ad-darajat Pg 275]

Imam Ali (as) said:

عَنْ خَاتَمِ النَّبِيِّينَ ص إِنَّهُ يَمُوتُ مَنْ مَاتَ مِنَّا وَ لَيْسَ بِمَيِّتٍ وَ يَبْلَى مَنْ بَلِيَ مِنَّا وَ لَيْسَ بِبَال

"From the Last of the Prophets (saww) who said, "He who dies from among us is not dead and he who decays from among us does not really decay."

[source: Nahjul Balagha Sermon: 87]

Edited by muhibb-ali

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Allah didnt alow his Prophets to ask forgivness to those in hell

and what do you make of this part of the quraanic verse ?"And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

This verse is in the Quran Chapter 4:64. And you read it right.

And no one is dead in this verse.

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The person you replied to was specifically looking within Saduq's works.

No he didn't, since what you quoted isn't from the work I was making reference to. Anyway, it seems pretty clear that Shaykh Mufeed only believed that the Imams (as) could hear from near their shrines, not from anywhere. So this still falls short of what people do nowadays.

and what was i trying to explain above ? -.-

again , the book of creed of shia dealt not with all aqa'ed of shia but the ones which were under controversy by mutakalimeen

i qouted that hadith from another book for Sudouq plus i tried to give explanation why would tawassul be of irrelevance to people living in 300 AH

not only that , it dosnt seem to exist back then as a controversial subject , if one to make a book about shia creed now adays , i doubt the issue of creation of quraan or the shafa'ah are of importance unlike tawassul

This verse is in the Quran Chapter 4:64. And you read it right.

And no one is dead in this verse.

no , they are alive but still , the prophet was used as mediator where people could have just asked forgiveness directly from Allah

why did Allah asked muslims back then to ask him forgiveness through one of his servants rather to supplicate to him directly ?

would dead people answer my request as the alive people , thats another question

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and what was i trying to explain above ? -.-

again , the book of creed of shia dealt not with all aqa'ed of shia but the ones which were under controversy by mutakalimeen

i qouted that hadith from another book for Sudouq plus i tried to give explanation why would tawassul be of irrelevance to people living in 300 AH

not only that , it dosnt seem to exist back then as a controversial subject , if one to make a book about shia creed now adays , i doubt the issue of creation of quraan or the shafa'ah are of importance unlike tawassul

This is pure speculation on your part, which I'm sure you are only putting forward in order to justify why tawassul would have been left out. There are plenty of other topics covered by Saduq that were not in dispute by the other sects (and it's hard to believe that tawassul, by the Imams especially, was a matter of complete consensus at the time).

There is no reason that I can see for supposing that Saduq's intention wasn't to give a complete description of the Shi'ite creed, and not just the issues that were in dispute.

no , they are alive but still , the prophet was used as mediator where people could have just asked forgiveness directly from Allah

why did Allah asked muslims back then to ask him forgiveness through one of his servants rather to supplicate to him directly ?

would dead people answer my request as the alive people , thats another question

The context makes clear the verse is talking about the hypocrites, not random Muslims who committed some sins.

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It would seem to me that since tawassul was such an uncontroversial thing amongst all Muslims before Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Abdul Wahab came along that early scholars like Saduq and Mufid didn't feel the need to mention it as a "Shia belief". It is still something that most Muslims agree on anyway.

Though I do find it interesting, Haydar Husayn, that you seem to fixated on Sh Saduq, and I hope it isn't just because he happens to agree with the views you already hold. Theology is never compiled in a vacuum; therefore it is essential to see people in their own eras, rather than trying to transfix them on our own era.

Edited by Ali Hayder

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no , they are alive but still , the prophet was used as mediator where people could have just asked forgiveness directly from Allah

why did Allah asked muslims back then to ask him forgiveness through one of his servants rather to supplicate to him directly ?

would dead people answer my request as the alive people , thats another question

You can and you should directly ask from Allah swt. But at the same time, you should not abandon any chance to get closer to Allah swt via his most pious servents (the Holy Prophet and Ahl al-Bayt).

All requests are answered by Allah swt. We can only make ourselves more favorable to Allah swt.

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(bismillah)

After a long conversation with a good friend about this, we have concluded a few things:

1 - The Imams [as] can hear you when you address them as is proven to all of the Ziyaraat (some of which are mu`tabar sandan)

2 - The Imams [as] make Du`a after their death (hadith on this too)

What hasn't been proven through authentic/mutawatir reports is that the Imams [as] hear things aside form salaams and statements, like requesting things from them., although Shaykh al-Mufeed [ra] has said they hear kalaam munaaji lahum at their graves. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. So, this could be an authentic practice of the early Shi'i community but I think if you are going to engage in this practice (albeit unproven via mu`tabar narratives) we should not do it like "O Fulan! Help me! Give me XYZ!" As that does not clearly convey intentions and is bad for the sect in general and it also comes off as tafweedhi. What would be more appropriate is "Ya Imami, I have hajaat, please make du`a to Allah (swt) that He fulfill them!"

However, I think this still somewhat of a risk and nothing shows the Imams [as] doing this kind of practice, AFAIK. I think it's best to stick to the way things are done by them [as] as we can see from the akhbar. Here's an example from Ziyarat al-Waritha:

O my Master, O Aba `Abdillah! I moved towards your sacred shrine and came to visit you, I beseech Allah by the status you enjoy with Him

So you are making to du`a to Allah [swt] but still directing your speech to the Imam [as]. Talk to your Imam [as], pledge your loyalty to him and disowning of his enemies, you long for his company and beseech Allah [swt] to grant you blessings through him. The Prophet [sawa] and the Imams [as] are already making du`a for the believers without us having to ask them. Don't feel like you don't have a relationship with them because you aren't directly asking them for your hajaat as an intercessor - they are your intercessors anyway.

في امان الله

Edited by Dar'ul_Islam

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(bismillah)

We are exhorted to make Ziyarah even from afar. We are also exhorted to make ziyarah of our 12th Imam [as], who does not have a grave.

في امان الله

Still, have you seen any evidence that anything more than your salam is conveyed to them when it is sent from afar? It would appear that they only hear directly from near the graves, as discussed on the thread

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(bismillah)

Still, have you seen any evidence that anything more than your salam is conveyed to them when it is sent from afar? It would appear that they only hear directly from near the graves, as discussed on the thread http://www.shiachat....re-all-hearing/

All of the ziyarat, even the mu`tabar ones, are more than simply "assalaamu`alayk ya Imami," in that you testify to their wilayah, dissociate from their enemies, pledge your allegiance to them and beseech Allah (swt) through them. We are told to even do ziyaraat from afar, regardless of the means by which they receive my words.

في امان الله

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So, intercession is only for the hypocrites and not garden variety sinful Muslims?

No. The point is that when you have wronged someone (as the hypocrites wronged the Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã, or the brothers of Yusuf (a) wronged Yaqoob (as)), then it makes sense to ask them to pray to Allah for your forgiveness. It makes less sense to come up to them and ask them to pray for your forgiveness for sins that are completely unrelated to them. I'm not saying this wouldn't be allowed, since clearly someone can alway pray for you, but it would be a little strange. Also keep in mind that if all the companions of the Prophet (sawas) came to him asking for forgiveness for their sins, then he would hardly have had the time to do anything else. As it is, we don't have any reports of companions (whether good or bad) doing such a thing. Neither do we have any reports of companions of the Imams (as) doing that.

Think about it, why would anyone who was in contact with an infallible ever seek repentance themselves from Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì? They could just keep going to the infallible and ask them to pray on their behalf (since this is supposedly 'better' than doing it directly). Can you imagine how annoying this would be if people had done that?

(bismillah)

All of the ziyarat, even the mu`tabar ones, are more than simply "assalaamu`alayk ya Imami," in that you testify to their wilayah, dissociate from their enemies, pledge your allegiance to them and beseech Allah (swt) through them. We are told to even do ziyaraat from afar, regardless of the means by which they receive my words.

في امان الله

All of them?

- روي ابن أبي عن هشام قال: قال أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: " إذا بعدت بأحدكم الشقة ونأت به الدار فليصعد أعلى منزله فليصل ركعتين وليؤم بالسلام إلى قبورنا فإن ذلك يصل إلينا ".

3202 – And Ibn Ubayy narrated from Hisham. He said: Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said: When the difficult journey is long for one of you and home is distanced , then one is to ascend to the highest place of his dwelling and pray two rak`at and he is to betake with salam to our graves, for verily that reaches to us.

3203 - وفي رواية حنان بن سدير عن أبيه قال: قال لي أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: " يا سدير تزور قبر الحسين عليه السلام في كل يوم؟ قلت: جعلت فداك لا، قال: ما أجفاكم فتزوره في كل شهر؟ قلت: لا، قال: فتزوره، في كل سنة؟ قلت: قد يكون ذلك، قال: يا سدير ما أجفاكم للحسين عليه السلام أما علمت أن لله تبارك وتعالى ألف ألف ملك شعث غبر، يبكون ويزورون ولا يفترون، وما عليك يا سدير أن تزور قبر الحسين عليه السلام في كل جمعة خمس مرات أو في كل يوم مرة، قلت: جعلت فداك بيننا وبينه فراسخ كثيرة، فقال لي: اصعد فوق سطحك ثم التفت يمنة ويسرة، ثم ارفع رأسك إلى السماء ثم تنحو نحو القبر فتقول: " السلام عليك يا أبا عبدالله، السلام عليك ورحمة الله وبركاته " تكتب لك بذلك، زورة الزورة حجة وعمرة، قال سدير: فربما فعلت ذلك في الشهر أكثر من عشرين مرة ".

3203 – And in the narration of Hanan b. Sadir from his father. Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said to me: O Sadir, have you visited (done ziyarat) to the grave of al-Husayn عليه السلام (once) in every day? I said: May I be made your ransom, no. He said: How rude you are! So you visit him (once) in every month? I said: No. He said: So you visit him (once) in every year? I said: It has been as that. He said: O Sadir, how rude you are to al-Husayn. Do you not know that Allah تبارك وتعالى has a thousand thousand angels with unkempt (hair) and dusty (garments), crying and visiting unfailingly. And what is upon you O Sadir that you visit the grave of al-Husayn عليه السلام five times in every Jum`a or once in every day. I said: May I be made your ransom, between us and it there are many leagues. So he said to me: Ascend above your roof then face to the right and left, then raise you head to the sky, then turn to the direction of the grave and you say “as-salaamu `alayka yaa Abaa `Abdillaah, as-salaamu `alayka wa raHmatullaahi wa barakaatuh”, a visitation will be written for you with that, and the visitation is a hajj and an `umra. Sadir said: So sometimes I did that more than twenty times in the month.

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/al-faqih/volume-2/chapter-220

Additionally:

And the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said: Whoever gives salam upon me at my grave I hear him, and whoever gives salam upon me from afar I am informed of it, the peace of Allah be upon him and the mercy of Allah and His blessings.

http://www.*******.org/kalam/awail-al-maqalat/chapter-49

Q [3] There are many recommended acts such as going to shrines of Ahlulbait, if a person lives very distant from these places and cannot reach there, is the recitation of Zyara and salutation from far equally well, virtuous and acceptable?

A ; There are no narrated texts from the Imams of the Ahlulbait that explain such an issue and clarify it. However, there is nothing wrong with reciting the Zyara from far away with the hope that it is recommended and then subject to rewards.

http://english.alhakeem.com/pages/quesans/listgroup_ques.php?Where=18

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No. The point is that when you have wronged someone (as the hypocrites wronged the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم, or the brothers of Yusuf (a) wronged Yaqoob (as)), then it makes sense to ask them to pray to Allah for your forgiveness. It makes less sense to come up to them and ask them to pray for your forgiveness for sins that are completely unrelated to them. I'm not saying this wouldn't be allowed, since clearly someone can alway pray for you, but it would be a little strange. Also keep in mind that if all the companions of the Prophet (sawas) came to him asking for forgiveness for their sins, then he would hardly have had the time to do anything else. As it is, we don't have any reports of companions (whether good or bad) doing such a thing. Neither do we have any reports of companions of the Imams (as) doing that.

Think about it, why would anyone who was in contact with an infallible ever seek repentance themselves from Allah سبحانه وتعالى? They could just keep going to the infallible and ask them to pray on their behalf (since this is supposedly 'better' than doing it directly). Can you imagine how annoying this would be if people had done that?

All of them?

- روي ابن أبي عن هشام قال: قال أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: " إذا بعدت بأحدكم الشقة ونأت به الدار فليصعد أعلى منزله فليصل ركعتين وليؤم بالسلام إلى قبورنا فإن ذلك يصل إلينا ".

3202 – And Ibn Ubayy narrated from Hisham. He said: Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said: When the difficult journey is long for one of you and home is distanced , then one is to ascend to the highest place of his dwelling and pray two rak`at and he is to betake with salam to our graves, for verily that reaches to us.

3203 - وفي رواية حنان بن سدير عن أبيه قال: قال لي أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: " يا سدير تزور قبر الحسين عليه السلام في كل يوم؟ قلت: جعلت فداك لا، قال: ما أجفاكم فتزوره في كل شهر؟ قلت: لا، قال: فتزوره، في كل سنة؟ قلت: قد يكون ذلك، قال: يا سدير ما أجفاكم للحسين عليه السلام أما علمت أن لله تبارك وتعالى ألف ألف ملك شعث غبر، يبكون ويزورون ولا يفترون، وما عليك يا سدير أن تزور قبر الحسين عليه السلام في كل جمعة خمس مرات أو في كل يوم مرة، قلت: جعلت فداك بيننا وبينه فراسخ كثيرة، فقال لي: اصعد فوق سطحك ثم التفت يمنة ويسرة، ثم ارفع رأسك إلى السماء ثم تنحو نحو القبر فتقول: " السلام عليك يا أبا عبدالله، السلام عليك ورحمة الله وبركاته " تكتب لك بذلك، زورة الزورة حجة وعمرة، قال سدير: فربما فعلت ذلك في الشهر أكثر من عشرين مرة ".

3203 – And in the narration of Hanan b. Sadir from his father. Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said to me: O Sadir, have you visited (done ziyarat) to the grave of al-Husayn عليه السلام (once) in every day? I said: May I be made your ransom, no. He said: How rude you are! So you visit him (once) in every month? I said: No. He said: So you visit him (once) in every year? I said: It has been as that. He said: O Sadir, how rude you are to al-Husayn. Do you not know that Allah تبارك وتعالى has a thousand thousand angels with unkempt (hair) and dusty (garments), crying and visiting unfailingly. And what is upon you O Sadir that you visit the grave of al-Husayn عليه السلام five times in every Jum`a or once in every day. I said: May I be made your ransom, between us and it there are many leagues. So he said to me: Ascend above your roof then face to the right and left, then raise you head to the sky, then turn to the direction of the grave and you say “as-salaamu `alayka yaa Abaa `Abdillaah, as-salaamu `alayka wa raHmatullaahi wa barakaatuh”, a visitation will be written for you with that, and the visitation is a hajj and an `umra. Sadir said: So sometimes I did that more than twenty times in the month.

http://www.tashayyu....e-2/chapter-220

Additionally:

And the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) said: Whoever gives salam upon me at my grave I hear him, and whoever gives salam upon me from afar I am informed of it, the peace of Allah be upon him and the mercy of Allah and His blessings.

http://www.tashayyu....alat/chapter-49

Q [3] There are many recommended acts such as going to shrines of Ahlulbait, if a person lives very distant from these places and cannot reach there, is the recitation of Zyara and salutation from far equally well, virtuous and acceptable?

A ; There are no narrated texts from the Imams of the Ahlulbait that explain such an issue and clarify it. However, there is nothing wrong with reciting the Zyara from far away with the hope that it is recommended and then subject to rewards.

http://english.alhak...es.php?Where=18

though , i dont feel it dose matter to you , for others who may read arabic

روى ابن شهر آشوب انه: أذنب رجلاً في حياة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم فتغيب حتى وجد الحسن والحسين عليهما السلام في طريقٍ خالٍ فأخذهما فإحتملهما على عاتقيه وأتى بها النبي صلى الله عليه وآله فقال: يا رسول الله إني مستجير بالله وبهما، فضحك رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله حتى رد إلى فمه ثم قال للرجل: اذهب وأنت طليق وقال للحسن والحسين عليهما السلام: قد شفعتكما فيه أي فتيان، فأنزل الله تعالى: (وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرَوا اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللّهَ تَوَّاباً رَحِيماً)النساء/64.

and if you want , you can compare the titles of imameyah creed by sodouq and the awa'el al amqalat by al mufeed in relation to the diffrence between shia and mo'tazelah , the imameyah creed is clearly to set a clear line between the 2 schools

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(bismillah)

All of them?

- روي ابن أبي عن هشام قال: قال أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: " إذا بعدت بأحدكم الشقة ونأت به الدار فليصعد أعلى منزله فليصل ركعتين وليؤم بالسلام إلى قبورنا فإن ذلك يصل إلينا ".

3202 – And Ibn Ubayy narrated from Hisham. He said: Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said: When the difficult journey is long for one of you and home is distanced , then one is to ascend to the highest place of his dwelling and pray two rak`at and he is to betake with salam to our graves, for verily that reaches to us.

There is no mention here of actually being at the grave, but to go to your roof, essentially, pray and then send your salaam in their grave's direction. And again, the Imams [as] taught more than simply saying salaam.

3203 - وفي رواية حنان بن سدير عن أبيه قال: قال لي أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: " يا سدير تزور قبر الحسين عليه السلام في كل يوم؟ قلت: جعلت فداك لا، قال: ما أجفاكم فتزوره في كل شهر؟ قلت: لا، قال: فتزوره، في كل سنة؟ قلت: قد يكون ذلك، قال: يا سدير ما أجفاكم للحسين عليه السلام أما علمت أن لله تبارك وتعالى ألف ألف ملك شعث غبر، يبكون ويزورون ولا يفترون، وما عليك يا سدير أن تزور قبر الحسين عليه السلام في كل جمعة خمس مرات أو في كل يوم مرة، قلت: جعلت فداك بيننا وبينه فراسخ كثيرة، فقال لي: اصعد فوق سطحك ثم التفت يمنة ويسرة، ثم ارفع رأسك إلى السماء ثم تنحو نحو القبر فتقول: " السلام عليك يا أبا عبدالله، السلام عليك ورحمة الله وبركاته " تكتب لك بذلك، زورة الزورة حجة وعمرة، قال سدير: فربما فعلت ذلك في الشهر أكثر من عشرين مرة ".

3203 – And in the narration of Hanan b. Sadir from his father. Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said to me: O Sadir, have you visited (done ziyarat) to the grave of al-Husayn عليه السلام (once) in every day? I said: May I be made your ransom, no. He said: How rude you are! So you visit him (once) in every month? I said: No. He said: So you visit him (once) in every year? I said: It has been as that. He said: O Sadir, how rude you are to al-Husayn. Do you not know that Allah تبارك وتعالى has a thousand thousand angels with unkempt (hair) and dusty (garments), crying and visiting unfailingly. And what is upon you O Sadir that you visit the grave of al-Husayn عليه السلام five times in every Jum`a or once in every day. I said: May I be made your ransom, between us and it there are many leagues. So he said to me: Ascend above your roof then face to the right and left, then raise you head to the sky, then turn to the direction of the grave and you say “as-salaamu `alayka yaa Abaa `Abdillaah, as-salaamu `alayka wa raHmatullaahi wa barakaatuh”, a visitation will be written for you with that, and the visitation is a hajj and an `umra. Sadir said: So sometimes I did that more than twenty times in the month.

It's far away and the Imam is telling him to still make Ziyarah from far away. Everyone faces the direction of his grave from even farther away to make Ziyarah. If the Imam [as] are teaching in the handed down ziyaraat to do more than just saying salaam, it is part of visitation, they hear statements, and even from afar. Other hadith, Ziyarah al-`Ashura's also (which is at least Qawwi in sanad and there are more than 1 chain),even say even if you are really far away, in another land entirely - iirc. There's still the issue of al-Qa'im [as] who has no grave and yet we recite Ziyara of him.

في امان الله

Edited by Dar'ul_Islam

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though , i dont feel it dose matter to you , for others who may read arabic

روى ابن شهر آشوب انه: أذنب رجلاً في حياة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم فتغيب حتى وجد الحسن والحسين عليهما السلام في طريقٍ خالٍ فأخذهما فإحتملهما على عاتقيه وأتى بها النبي صلى الله عليه وآله فقال: يا رسول الله إني مستجير بالله وبهما، فضحك رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله حتى رد إلى فمه ثم قال للرجل: اذهب وأنت طليق وقال للحسن والحسين عليهما السلام: قد شفعتكما فيه أي فتيان، فأنزل الله تعالى: (وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرَوا اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللّهَ تَوَّاباً رَحِيماً)النساء/64.

You really believe someone would have done that with what would have been two children at the time? Not to mention I tend not to finding the stuff in Ibn Shahrashub's book all that credible, being later and not giving sources.

and if you want , you can compare the titles of imameyah creed by sodouq and the awa'el al amqalat by al mufeed in relation to the diffrence between shia and mo'tazelah , the imameyah creed is clearly to set a clear line between the 2 schools

You could argue that for Mufid's Awa'il (to an extent, in reality the book does go into further depth than simply how we are different from the Mu`tazila), but that's not really the case with Saduq's I`tiqad. Does he even mention the Mu`tazila in it at all? The book is really more a general summary of what he regarded to be the doctrines of the Imami creed.

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(bismillah)

There is no mention here of actually being at the grave, but to go to your roof, essentially, pray and then send your salaam in their grave's direction. And again, the Imams [as] taught more than simply saying salaam.

It's far away and the Imam is telling him to still make Ziyarah from far away. Everyone faces the direction of his grave from even farther away to make Ziyarah. If the Imam [as] are teaching in the handed down ziyaraat to do more than just saying salaam, it is part of visitation, they hear statements, and even from afar. Other hadith, Ziyarah al-`Ashura's also (which is at least Qawwi in sanad and there are more than 1 chain),even say even if you are really far away, in another land entirely - iirc. There's still the issue of al-Qa'im [as] who has no grave and yet we recite Ziyara of him.

في امان الله

I think you misunderstood my point. I was pointing out that in these ziyaraat from afar, the Imams (as) are simply teaching to say salam, and this fits in well with the narrations that say that they are informed of our salams sent from afar. If they really could hear anything, then I'm not sure why the narrations focus on salams, rather than just generally say that they hear whatever is said to them from afar.

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Yes, he did.

And verily the Messenger of Allah (صلّى الله عليه وآله وسلّم) and the Imams from his progeny in particular, the states of their Shi`a from the realm of the world is not hidden from them by the notification of Allah, be He exalted. They have that, state after state, and they hear the speech of the supplicant to them in their grand noble shrines by a grace from the graces of Allah, be He exalted. It is announced to them from the mass of the servants and the supplications are conveyed to them as the narrations have come with. And this is the madhhab of all of the fuqaha of the Imamiyya and the bearers of the traditions from them. I do not know of a doctrine regarding it from their prior theologians (i.e. that differs from this). And it has reached me from the Banu Nawbakht, may Allah be pleased with them, a difference in regards to it, and I have encountered a group from those who fall short in recognition (al-muqassireen `an al-ma`rifa, i.e. who believe about the Imams things below their station, denying their true noble status) who also belong to the Imama that refuse it.

http://www.tashayyu....alat/chapter-49

What's interesting is, Sheikh al-Mufeed claimed that no 'Ulema have ever disagreed with this doctrine.

Not really, if you read the quote more closely he indicates the Banu Nawbakht have a different view on it (presumably they rejected it keeping in line with their other views about the Imams) and as well what he calls the muqassireen also rejected it (though I'd take that latter with a grain of salt, considering his view on the issue of sahw an-nabi (s) for instance and why he rejected it). So really al-Mufid's view is probably a bit more on what then would have been the wider permissive side by considering that the Imams can hear from the graves, but there's no mention of this quasi-omniscience that is more commonly believed nowadays because presumably no-one within the parameters of some type of Imami orthodoxy would have believed such things in his time.

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You really believe someone would have done that with what would have been two children at the time? Not to mention I tend not to finding the stuff in Ibn Shahrashub's book all that credible, being later and not giving sources.

You could argue that for Mufid's Awa'il (to an extent, in reality the book does go into further depth than simply how we are different from the Mu`tazila), but that's not really the case with Saduq's I`tiqad. Does he even mention the Mu`tazila in it at all? The book is really more a general summary of what he regarded to be the doctrines of the Imami creed.

sodouq was less clear about it in comparision with al mufeed , but he mentioned it in the tawheed and mashee'ah chapter

وليس يرد في الأخبار التي يشنع بها أهل الخلاف والالحاد إلا مثل هذه الألفاظ ومعانيها معاني ألفاظ القرآن (5)

هذا اعتقادنا في الإرادة والمشيئة دون ما نسبه (3) إلينا أهل الخلاف والمشنعون علينا من أهل الالحاد.

also , one can sense it from Sodouq selection of hadiths and titles , he selected hadiths in response to "others" not to explain the general thought of imameyah

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Where is the evidence that they can hear us when we are not near their graves?

Distances matter for them? If Allah wishes He can take His prophet (pbuh) to the place far thousands of miles away from earth.

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Everybody has a way of understanding ahadees however not everyone understands everything let be saduq or whoever. But all those carefully written ahadees and ziyarat (word to word) where one imam a.s mentions another imam and mind u its imam mentioning an imam not I mentioning u. And the cradle of ya Abu abdillah a.s which is a source of benefit is not Allah azwj but an imam's cradle and can benefit me and the bismillah that you use as wasila is not Allah azwj as ism is other than musamma.

So brothers sheikh saduq or sheikh mufeed were not a hujja and I think I have said enough . And here is sahih sanadan hadees according bro Nader. Now delete all those lines in ziyarahs or say they hear from far or atleast are present.

ِ نﺎَﻛ َ ﺎﺒِﺋﺎَﻏ ً ِﻪﱢﻤَﺴَﻓ لﺎَﻗ َ اَذِإ نﺎَﻛ َ ﻞُﺟﱠﺮﻟا ُ اﺮِﺿﺎَﺣ ً ﻪﱢﻨَﻜَﻓ ِ وَ اَذِإ ﻦَﻋ ْ ﺮﱠﻤَﻌُﻣ ِ ﻦْﺑ ِ دﱠﻼَﺧ ٍ ﻦَﻋ ْ ﻲِﺑَأ ﻦَﺴَﺤْﻟا ِ ع ﺪﱠﻤَﺤُﻣ ُ ﻦْﺑ ُ ﻰَﻴْﺤَﻳ ﻦَﻋ ْ ﺪَﻤْﺣَأ َ ﻦْﺑ From Mu`ammar bin Khalād from Abī al- asan ( ﻪﻴﻠﻋ مﻼﺴﻟا ) said: “When the man is present (in your company) then call him by his kunyah, and if he is absent then call him by his name”

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(bismillah)

I think you misunderstood my point. I was pointing out that in these ziyaraat from afar, the Imams (as) are simply teaching to say salam, and this fits in well with the narrations that say that they are informed of our salams sent from afar. If they really could hear anything, then I'm not sure why the narrations focus on salams, rather than just generally say that they hear whatever is said to them from afar.

Again, the ziyaraat narrated from the A'immah [as] narrate to recite more than Salaam upon them. Also, the Ziyarah of Yawm al-`Ashuraa is more than salaam and the Imam [as] said to recite from far away, also any day, IIRC.

والله عالم

في امانه

Edited by Dar'ul_Islam

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sodouq was less clear about it in comparision with al mufeed , but he mentioned it in the tawheed and mashee'ah chapter

وليس يرد في الأخبار التي يشنع بها أهل الخلاف والالحاد إلا مثل هذه الألفاظ ومعانيها معاني ألفاظ القرآن (5)

هذا اعتقادنا في الإرادة والمشيئة دون ما نسبه (3) إلينا أهل الخلاف والمشنعون علينا من أهل الالحاد.

also , one can sense it from Sodouq selection of hadiths and titles , he selected hadiths in response to "others" not to explain the general thought of imameyah

I think whatever you're sensing here is really reading into it and grasping at straws. The book really gives no indication of it being anything other than a treatise going over the points of Imami doctrine and beliefs. But even if it was as you say, then certainly the rationalist `Aammi Mu`tazila would not have agreed to the contemporary belief of tawassul to the Imams (certainly not in the sense of them hearing supplications from afar, etc) and so you'd expect then there would have been a chapter to highlight such a difference were it the case of what you are saying.

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Considering the Mu`tazila didn't even believe in the Imams, I'm pretty sure they didn't believe in doing tawassul to them. Even regarding shafa`a, they took a more limited view of it, and didn't believe the Prophet (sawa) would intercede for sinners deserving of punishment on yawm al-qiyama, but only for the obedient.

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No. The point is that when you have wronged someone (as the hypocrites wronged the Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم, or the brothers of Yusuf (a) wronged Yaqoob (as)), then it makes sense to ask them to pray to Allah for your forgiveness. It makes less sense to come up to them and ask them to pray for your forgiveness for sins that are completely unrelated to them.

That verse didn't really stated that those people have wronged the Prophet. Those could be personal sins.

Anyway, there are verses about hypocrites in the surah munifiqeen (verse 5 and 6) where Allah swt mention that there isn't any point for the Prophet to intercede on behalf of the hypocrites because they will not be forgiven.

63_5.png

Sahih InternationalAnd when it is said to them, "Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you," they turn their heads aside and you see them evading while they are arrogant.

63:6

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63_6.png

Just one more question here. What do you guys think about this verse here

To be honest, I don't understand this verse.

The wording used here is "shafa'atu" (intercession). So, the translation seems to be correct.

But, do we know who the people the angels going to intercede for?

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For me they are fid dunya wal akhira and all the best for u guys.

Abul Hasan Ali b. Muhammad b. Al-Zubair al-Kufi reported to me, with permission to report from Abul Hasan Ali b. Faddhal, who reported from Ali b. Asbat who reported from Muhammad b. Yahya, the brother of Mughallas, from al-Ula b. Razin, from Muhammad b. Muslim, from one of the two (Imams), peace be upon them, saying that:

I told him: "We see a man deeply engrossed in the acts of devotion, humble and trying his best (to please Allah), yet he is opposed to you. Does that benefit him anything?"

He said: "O Muhammad, the similitude of us Ahlul Bait is like that of a household among Banu Israel, of whom whoever strived devotedly for forty nights, his prayer was answered." Among them there was one who strenuously worshipped for forty nights and his prayer went unanswered. So he came to Isa, son of Maryam, peace be upon him, complaining about the situation he was in, and beseeching him to pray for him. So Isa a.s made ablutions, and prayed. Allah revealed unto him: "O Isa, surely, this servant of mine came through a gate other than the one through which I am reached. He prayed while his heart had doubts about you. So, (even) if he called upon me till his neck were severed and his fingers fell apart, I would not answer him." Then Isa approached him and said: "You call upon your Lord while your heart doubts His Prophet?"

He said: "O Spirit of Allah, and His word, by Allah, it was like what you said. Now, please pray unto Him to remove that from me." Then Isa prayed (for him) and Allah accepted it from him, and he was again reverted to his household.

Similar is the case of us Ahlul Bait. Allah does not accept the acts of devotion from a servant who doubts about us.

(Al-Amali by Sheikh al-Mufid pg 15-16)

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Considering the Mu`tazila didn't even believe in the Imams, I'm pretty sure they didn't believe in doing tawassul to them. Even regarding shafa`a, they took a more limited view of it, and didn't believe the Prophet (sawa) would intercede for sinners deserving of punishment on yawm al-qiyama, but only for the obedient.

true , hence the Sudouq chapter on shafa'ah !

Sodouq statred his book by Tawheed chapter and made it clear in the first lines that Allah's attributes are qadeem , not muhdath which is teh ash'ari belief , he explained in details the attributes like hand eye etc those that ash'ari takes literally till today

Soudoq third chapter is Takleef , which is again in response to Mo'tazelah who claimed that mind is enough for obligation and no need for messengers for that

fourth chapter is about acts of servants , again it is in response to those who claimed that acts of servants are creation of Allah

fifth : jabr and tafweedh where Mo'tazelah chose the tafweedh

sixth:iradah and mashee'ah : sodouq himself stated that he wrote it in response to thse who claimed imameyah believd otherwise

ninth : isti6a3ah : ability : didnt get the whole argument but it was in response to ash'aris

tenth :bada'e : Soudouq himself stated that he wrote it to clarefy the imameyah belief in response to what was claimed against them and relating their belif to jews

well you can go through all the 45 chapter

anyways , it is of course my guess on why tawassul was not very relevant to be mentioned in sodouq creed book , he rather mentioned it casually in thawab al amal without stressing too much about what was not a controversial issue

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(bismillah)

Again, the ziyaraat narrated from the A'immah [as] narrate to recite more than Salaam upon them. Also, the Ziyarah of Yawm al-`Ashuraa is more than salaam and the Imam [as] said to recite from far away, also any day, IIRC.

والله عالم

في امانه

Salam.

To add to this. Here is a narration which has a detailed Ziyarat of Imam Husain (as) to be recited from far away.

And this does not only have Salaam (Salutions) but further more and quite a few statements are directly addressed to Imam Husain (as).

حدَّثني محمّد بن عبدالله بن جعفر الحِميريّ ، عن أبيه ، عن أحمدَ بن أبي عبدالله البرقيِّ ، عن أبيه ـ رفع الحديث إلى أبي عبدالله عليه السلام ـ «قال : دخل حَنان ابن سَدِير الصَّيرَفيُّ على أبي عبدالله عليه السلام ـ وعنده جماعةٌ من أصحابه ـ فقال : يا حَنانَ بنَ سَدير تَزورُ أبا عبدالله عليه السلام في كلِّ شَهر مَرَّةً ؟ قال : لا ، قال : ففي كلِّ شَهرين مرَّة ؟ قال : لا ، قال: ففي كلِّ سَنَةٍ مرَّةً؟ قال : لا ، قال : ما أجفاكم لسيّدكم ! فقال : يا ابن رَسول اللهِ قلَّةُ الزَّاد وبُعدُ المسافة ، قال : ألا أدلّكم على زيارة مقبولة وإن بَعُد النّأي ؟ قال : فكيف أزورُه يا ابن رسول الله ؟ قال: اغتسل يوم الجُمُعة أو أيّ يوم شئت ، والبس أطهرَ ثيابك واصْعَد إلى أعلى موضعٍ في دارِك أو الصَّحراء ، فاستقبل القٍبلَةَ بوَجهك بعد ما تبيّن أنَّ القبرَ هنالك(2) ، يقول الله تبارك وتعالى: «أيْنَما تُوَلُّوا فَثَمَ وَجْهُ اللهِ(*)» . ثمَّ قل :

«السَّلامُ عَلَيْكَ يا مَولايَ وَابْنَ مَولايَ ، وَسَيِّدي وَابْنَ سَيِّدي ، السَّلامُ عَلَيْكَ يا مَولايَ الشَّهيدَ بْنَ الشَّهيدِ ، وَالْقَتِيلَ بْنَ الْقَتيلِ ، السَّلامُ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَةُ اللهِ وَبَرَكاتُهُ ، أنَا زائِرُكَ يا ابْنَ رَسُولِ الله بِقَلْبي وَلِساني وَجَوارِحي ، وَإنْ لَمْ أزُرْكَ بِنَفْسي مُشاهَدَةَ لِقُبَّتِكَ(1) ، فَعَليْكَ السَّلامُ يا وارِثَ آدَمَ صَفْوَةِ الله ، وَوارِثَ نُوح نَبيِّ اللهِ ، وَوارِثَ إبراهيمَ خَليلِ الله ، وَوارِثَ مُوسى كَليم اللهِ ، وَوارِثَ عيسى رُوح الله ، وَوارِثَ مُحَمَّدٍ حَبيبِ اللهِ وَنَبيِّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ ، وَوارِثَ عَليِّ أمير المؤمنين وَصيّ رَسُولِ اللهِ وَخَليفَتِهِ ، وَوارِثَ الحسَنِ بْن عَليّ وَصيِّ أمِير المؤمِنينَ ، لَعَنَ اللهُ قاتِليكَ ، وَجَدَّدَ عَلَيْهِمْ الْعَذابَ في هذِهِ السّاعَةِ وَفي كُلِّ ساعَةٍ ، أنَا يا سَيِّدي مُتقَرِّبٌ إلى اللهِ جَلَّ وَعَزَّ ، وإلى جَدِّكَ رَسُولِ اللهِ ، وَإلى أبيكَ أمِيرِ المُؤْمِنينَ ، وإلى أخِيكَ الحسَنِ ، وَإلَيْكَ يا مَولايَ ، فَعَلَيْكَ السَّلامُ وَرَحْمَةُ اللهِ وَبَرَكاتُهُ ، بِزيارَتي لَكَ بِقَلْبي وَلِساني وَجَميع جَوارِحي ، فَكُنْ لي يا سَيِّدي شَفيعي لِقَبُولِ ذلِكَ مِنِّي ، وَأنَا بِالْبَراءَةِ مِنْ أعْدائِكَ وَاللَّعْنَةِ لَهُمْ وَعَلَيْهِمْ أتَقَرَّبُ إلى اللهِ وَإلَيكُمْ أجْمَعِينَ ، فَعَلَيْكَ صَلَواتُ اللهِ وَرِضْوانُهُ وَرَحْمَتُهُ» .

ثمَّ تتحوَّل على يسارك قليلاً وتحوَّل وجهك إلى قبر عليِّ بن الحسين عليهما السلام ، وهو عند رِجل أبيه ، وتسلّم عليه مثل ذلك ، ثمَّ ادعُ الله بما أحببتَ من أمر دينك ودُنياك ، ثمَّ تصلّي أربع رَكعات فإنَّ صَلاة الزِّيارة ثمان أو سِتَ أو أربع أو ركعتان ، وأفضلها ثمان ، ثمَّ تستقبل نحوَ قبر أبي عبدالله عليه السلام وتقول :

«أنا مُوَدِّعِكُ يا مَولايَ وَابْنَ مَولايَ ، وَيا سَيِّدِي وَابْنَ سَيِّدي ، وَمُوَدِّعُكَ يا سَيِّدي وَابْنَ سَيِّدي يا عَليَّ بْنَ الحسَينِ ، وَمُوَدِّعُكُمْ يا ساداتي ، يا مَعاشِرَ الشُّهَداءِ ، فَعَلَيْكُمْ سَلامُ اللهِ وَرَحْمَتُهُ وَرِضْوانُهُ وَبَرَكاتُهُ

The parts in the Red/blue above are the actual Ziyarat to be recited from far away and it surely has more than salutations (salaam).

And the parts in blue are the words addressed to Imam Husain (as) directly, which again shows that you can address the Imam's (as) directly even from far away.

Below is the translation of the parts in blue:

"I am performing your Ziyarah, O Son of the Messenger of Allah with my heart, my tongue and my organs although I have not come to your Ziyarah physically where I can see your dome."

"O My master! Intercede on my behalf so that this Ziyarah is accepted from me."

"I bid farewell to You, O my master and the son of my Master and O my leader and the son of my leader."

[source: Kamil Al Ziyarah, Ch. 96, Hadees. 7]

Edited by muhibb-ali

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